On Channel 4,Tuesday 8:00 pm there was a programme about people's
problems with houses. The first item concerned numerous defects with a
new Persimmon house. Basically, the house was considered not up to
standard, although one of the presenters tried to play down the
owners' concerns somewhat.

I am planning to buy a new home! And I can do without horror stories
like this. And this is not the first time I've watched programmes like
this, where some brand new houses are shown to be of dubious quality
or even structurally unsound (anyone remember that house with the
massive cracks in the walls?).

How can I pick a builder with some kind of reputation to maintain and
some concept of quality work? Where are all the lists of recommended
builders, and the lists of builders whose products one wouldn't touch
with a bargepole?

I have brochures from about a dozen builders, one of which is
Persimmon. But I also have my eye on Morris Homes, Bryant, and
Chestnut Homes.

Any advice to avoid a dud? This is a dream of a lifetime and while the
couple portrayed on tonight's programme were angry, they were fairly
resigned to the situation and just wanted out. Apparently they have
negotiated some kind of confidential deal with the builder. But if
this happened to me, I would be absolutely livid. Surely it must be
possible to avoid jerry building in 2003/4?

MM

In ,
an infinite number of Mike Mitchells, in an attempt to produce the entire
works of Shakespeare, typed:
On Channel 4,Tuesday 8:00 pm there was a programme about people's
problems with houses. The first item concerned numerous defects with a
new Persimmon house. Basically, the house was considered not up to
standard, although one of the presenters tried to play down the
owners' concerns somewhat.

I am planning to buy a new home! And I can do without horror stories
like this. And this is not the first time I've watched programmes like
this, where some brand new houses are shown to be of dubious quality
or even structurally unsound (anyone remember that house with the
massive cracks in the walls?).

How can I pick a builder with some kind of reputation to maintain and
some concept of quality work? Where are all the lists of recommended
builders, and the lists of builders whose products one wouldn't touch
with a bargepole?

I have brochures from about a dozen builders, one of which is
Persimmon. But I also have my eye on Morris Homes, Bryant, and
Chestnut Homes.

Any advice to avoid a dud? This is a dream of a lifetime and while the
couple portrayed on tonight's programme were angry, they were fairly
resigned to the situation and just wanted out. Apparently they have
negotiated some kind of confidential deal with the builder. But if
this happened to me, I would be absolutely livid. Surely it must be
possible to avoid jerry building in 2003/4?

MM

Hi Mike,
Sorry to offer no real advice but sometimes it can be the luck of
the draw. Previously had a Barratt house (nightmare) and decided to move to
a nice big Bryant one. Virtually everyone on the estate has had very few
snags but we're having a nightmare. Ho hum. If you enjoy having a shower
tray filled with effluent then you may enjoy the house buying adventure :-(

Keith

"Mike Mitchell" wrote
| Surely it must be possible to avoid jerry building
| in 2003/4?

Of course.

Don't use British builders.

The level of training, qualification and basic intelligence of most
labourers on British building sites is abysmal. And on spec developments
many labourers will be contracted to a labour hire contractor and not even
working directly for the main contractor.

Get a German pre-fab and make sure it's installed by German labour.

Owain

On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 21:53:35 +0100, "Owain"
wrote:

The level of training, qualification and basic intelligence of most
labourers on British building sites is abysmal. And on spec developments
many labourers will be contracted to a labour hire contractor and not even
working directly for the main contractor.

Part of the problem has been Gordon Browns attack on the building
trade. You can't work on a building site these days without having
some certification or other, which basically forces the workman to pay
tax at the appropriate rate on all earnings.

I'm not advocating that people don't pay tax, that would be wrong.
However if you take away people's incentive to try harder and do
better for themselves then you end up with a dis-spirited workforce
who will never raise their game. Tax is fine if it is fairly applied,
but under the current regime every citizen is expected to maximise the
tax they pay to the chancellor - and that's not fair.

And I understand that on many if not all building sites the job rates
are pretty abyssmal. Probably always have been, I don't know. So if
the worker is being paid sh!t rates and being forced to hand over 30%
to that nice Mr Brown only the cowboy workers will take part.

Andrew

Do you need a handyman service? Check out our
web site at http://www.handymac.co.uk

"Andrew McKay" wrote
| "Owain" wrote:
| The level of training, qualification and basic intelligence of most
| labourers on British building sites is abysmal. And on spec developments
| many labourers will be contracted to a labour hire contractor and not
even
| working directly for the main contractor.
| Part of the problem has been Gordon Browns attack on the building
| trade. You can't work on a building site these days without having
| some certification or other, which basically forces the workman to pay
| tax at the appropriate rate on all earnings.

This may sound rather reactionary, but I blame the totally inadequate
investment in vocational training 16+ combined with the fad for all and
sundry to go to university for four years getting their BA Sociology With
Macrame before working as a Human Resources Manager in a call centre.

In "the good old days" (which I don't remember) those who failed the 11+
were sent to a secondary modern and taught Useful Things before being put
into apprenticeships. Now, nobody wants to do anything which sounds like
hard work.

Owain

On Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:58:49 +0100, "Owain"
wrote:

In "the good old days" (which I don't remember) those who failed the 11+
were sent to a secondary modern and taught Useful Things before being put
into apprenticeships. Now, nobody wants to do anything which sounds like
hard work.

I failed the 11 plus, and duly went to a secondary modern. I came out
with 4 O levels.

When I was at primary school one of my classmates was very
intelligent, always at the top of the class. He went on to grammar
school.

I met him the year after we left. He came out of grammar school with 2
O levels. And yet he was far more intelligent than me in every
respect.

Andrew

Do you need a handyman service? Check out our
web site at http://www.handymac.co.uk

In article , Andrew McKay
writes
On Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:58:49 +0100, "Owain"
wrote:

In "the good old days" (which I don't remember) those who failed the 11+
were sent to a secondary modern and taught Useful Things before being put
into apprenticeships. Now, nobody wants to do anything which sounds like
hard work.

I failed the 11 plus, and duly went to a secondary modern. I came out
with 4 O levels.

When I was at primary school one of my classmates was very
intelligent, always at the top of the class. He went on to grammar
school.

I met him the year after we left. He came out of grammar school with 2
O levels. And yet he was far more intelligent than me in every
respect.


Dangerous places schools. My old mum ,'gawd rest her soul, was a devout
catholic and I was duly sent to a catholic school whose ethos was,

"know thy humble place in the scheme of things, and that's somewhere
near the bottom of the heap"

Poxy place, no way on this planet would I inflict such a brainwashing
establishment on my children.

Don't blame my mum 'tho she was bought up in Ireland to this doctrine
and knew no different....

--
Tony Sayer

"Andrew McKay" wrote
| I failed the 11 plus, and duly went to a secondary modern. I came out
| with 4 O levels.
| When I was at primary school one of my classmates was very
| intelligent, always at the top of the class. He went on to grammar
| school.
| I met him the year after we left. He came out of grammar school with 2
| O levels. And yet he was far more intelligent than me in every
| respect.

I got 2 As, 4Bs and a C at O level and a CSE grade one, and it taught me
absolutely nothing of any use. Went to university and dropped out after one
year. What paid my wages was being able to use a word processor and that I
learned at FE college.

Owain

"Owain" wrote in message
...
"Andrew McKay" wrote
| "Owain" wrote:
| The level of training, qualification and basic intelligence of most
| labourers on British building sites is abysmal. And on spec
developments
| many labourers will be contracted to a labour hire contractor and not
even
| working directly for the main contractor.
| Part of the problem has been Gordon Browns attack on the building
| trade. You can't work on a building site these days without having
| some certification or other, which basically forces the workman to pay
| tax at the appropriate rate on all earnings.

This may sound rather reactionary, but I blame the totally inadequate
investment in vocational training 16+ combined with the fad for all and
sundry to go to university for four years getting their BA Sociology With
Macrame before working as a Human Resources Manager in a call centre.

In "the good old days" (which I don't remember) those who failed the 11+
were sent to a secondary modern and taught Useful Things before being put
into apprenticeships. Now, nobody wants to do anything which sounds like
hard work.

You mean the "bad old days".


---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.507 / Virus Database: 304 - Release Date: 04/08/2003

"Owain" wrote in message
...
"Mike Mitchell" wrote
| Surely it must be possible to avoid jerry building
| in 2003/4?

Of course.

Don't use British builders.

The level of training, qualification and basic intelligence of most
labourers on British building sites is abysmal. And on spec developments
many labourers will be contracted to a labour hire contractor and not even
working directly for the main contractor.

Get a German pre-fab and make sure it's installed by German labour.

Huf Haus, but not cheap.



---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.507 / Virus Database: 304 - Release Date: 04/08/2003

On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 21:53:35 +0100, "Owain"
wrote:

Get a German pre-fab and make sure it's installed by German labour.

You know, I had thought EXACTLY the same myself! Having lived in
Germany for many years and observed the self-builds that go on over
there as a matter of course I was always struck by the very high
quality of the finished properties. My late sister's property, like
most modern German houses, has a basement almost the full size of the
ground floor. The house has cast concrete subfloors, copper guttering,
*timber*-framed windows instead of horrid PVC ones, underfloor
heating, a huge plot, and so on. The gas boiler looks like something
out of Starship Enterprise - freestanding and massive.

If only I knew *how* to go about getting a German pre-fab built over
here! Maybe I should start investigating...

Thanks for your tip, Owain!

MM

"Mike Mitchell" wrote in message
...
On Channel 4,Tuesday 8:00 pm there was a programme about people's
problems with houses. The first item concerned numerous defects with a
new Persimmon house. Basically, the house was considered not up to
standard, although one of the presenters tried to play down the
owners' concerns somewhat.

I am planning to buy a new home! And I can do without horror stories
like this. And this is not the first time I've watched programmes like
this, where some brand new houses are shown to be of dubious quality
or even structurally unsound (anyone remember that house with the
massive cracks in the walls?).

How can I pick a builder with some kind of reputation to maintain and
some concept of quality work? Where are all the lists of recommended
builders, and the lists of builders whose products one wouldn't touch
with a bargepole?

I have brochures from about a dozen builders, one of which is
Persimmon. But I also have my eye on Morris Homes, Bryant, and
Chestnut Homes.

Any advice to avoid a dud? This is a dream of a lifetime and while the
couple portrayed on tonight's programme were angry, they were fairly
resigned to the situation and just wanted out. Apparently they have
negotiated some kind of confidential deal with the builder. But if
this happened to me, I would be absolutely livid. Surely it must be
possible to avoid jerry building in 2003/4?

MM

Hi Mike, didn't see the prog unfortunately but I'd like to try and reassure
you a little if I can...
We do a lot of new build work (as sparkies) for a lot of different builders.
The majority of houses are well built and I'd be quite happy to buy one (if
I could afford one!). Our company tries to resolve any snagging issues
within 48 hours if possible (1st contact within 24hrs) and certainly within
1 week. The plumbers, tilers, plasterers etc. all try to work to similar
timescales - in fact we all have dedicated departments these days. Obviously
smaller companies will struggle to give this kind of service but that's the
downside of employing 1 man and his apprentice outfits.
Regards, Richard

On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:24:25 +0100, "Frisket"
wrote:

Hi Mike, didn't see the prog unfortunately but I'd like to try and reassure
you a little if I can...
We do a lot of new build work (as sparkies) for a lot of different builders.
The majority of houses are well built and I'd be quite happy to buy one (if
I could afford one!). Our company tries to resolve any snagging issues
within 48 hours if possible (1st contact within 24hrs) and certainly within
1 week. The plumbers, tilers, plasterers etc. all try to work to similar
timescales - in fact we all have dedicated departments these days. Obviously
smaller companies will struggle to give this kind of service but that's the
downside of employing 1 man and his apprentice outfits.
Regards, Richard

Thanks for that! Whereabouts do you do new build work? Just the
county(ies) would do. I won't tell 'em you sent me!

MM

"Mike Mitchell" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:24:25 +0100, "Frisket"
wrote:


Thanks for that! Whereabouts do you do new build work? Just the
county(ies) would do. I won't tell 'em you sent me!

MM
West & North Yorkshire mainly - especially York & Leeds (big bucks areas -
for oop north at least)

Richard

On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 20:50:32 +0100, Mike Mitchell
wrote:

I'm just reading up on new build and found this review (don't read it
in front of the children - they may never have seen grownups cry):

http://www.ciao.co.uk/Wilson_Connoll...Review_5338355

I am astounded to learn (elsewhere) that the Sale of Goods Act does
not apply to houses! Apparently there was some Act of Parliament or
something which excluded houses.

I have seen adverse comments about other well-known builders, too.

A sense of despair is creeping in...

Any room on the ferry to Hamburg...?

MM

"Mike Mitchell" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 20:50:32 +0100, Mike Mitchell
wrote:

I'm just reading up on new build and found this review (don't read it
in front of the children - they may never have seen grownups cry):

http://www.ciao.co.uk/Wilson_Connoll...Review_5338355

I am astounded to learn (elsewhere) that the Sale of Goods Act does
not apply to houses! Apparently there was some Act of Parliament or
something which excluded houses.

I have seen adverse comments about other well-known builders, too.

A sense of despair is creeping in...

Any room on the ferry to Hamburg...?

MM

The main problem was the plumbing, and I'm sure they used plastic pipe and
obviously unqualified people to do it. Easy isn't! Just push it in!



---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.507 / Virus Database: 304 - Release Date: 04/08/2003

Mike Mitchell wrote:

On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 20:50:32 +0100, Mike Mitchell
wrote:

I'm just reading up on new build and found this review (don't read it
in front of the children - they may never have seen grownups cry):

http://www.ciao.co.uk/Wilson_Connoll...Review_5338355


From that site:

"I got an electric shock because the circuits were incorrectly labelled
on the circuit-breaker board, causing me to turn off the wrong circuit
while I attempted to dry out the switches in the kitchen."

I wonder that if that shock had been fatal (guess he was saved by the
RCD) if a case of corporate manslaughter would ahve been brought against
WilCon?

What made me chuckle is that the author has his own website
http://www.wilcon-homes.com/ which would appear to be an illegal use of
a registered name (they probably still have their old trading name
registered). I guess that the company hasn't stumbled upon it yet but I
bet it gets plenty of hits from people looking for Wilson Connolly Homes
(their site is www.wilcon.co.uk) :-)

I am astounded to learn (elsewhere) that the Sale of Goods Act does
not apply to houses! Apparently there was some Act of Parliament or
something which excluded houses.

I have seen adverse comments about other well-known builders, too.

A sense of despair is creeping in...

Any room on the ferry to Hamburg...?

MM

On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 12:03:04 +0000, parish parish_AT_ntlworld.com
wrote:

What made me chuckle is that the author has his own website
http://www.wilcon-homes.com/ which would appear to be an illegal use of
a registered name (they probably still have their old trading name
registered). I guess that the company hasn't stumbled upon it yet but I
bet it gets plenty of hits from people looking for Wilson Connolly Homes
(their site is www.wilcon.co.uk) :-)

But this is just the tip of an iceberg. In my perusal of the web on
this issue I have found adverse comments galore relating to other
building companies. I have yet to receive ANY positive recommendation!
Someone in another thread mentioned that Bryant are the best, then
offered some qualification of that.

Can anyone recommend -
Morris Homes
Ashwood Homes
Chestnut Homes
David Wilson Homes

?

MM

Mike Mitchell wrote:

Can anyone recommend -
David Wilson Homes

Yes.

"Grant Mason" wrote in message
...
Mike Mitchell wrote:

Can anyone recommend -
David Wilson Homes

Yes.


I'd recommend my builder (Stuart Milne Homes), but that's probably of little
use to you. I found them to be very good at putting problems right.

In article ,
Mike Mitchell writes:
On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 20:50:32 +0100, Mike Mitchell
wrote:
I am astounded to learn (elsewhere) that the Sale of Goods Act does
not apply to houses! Apparently there was some Act of Parliament or
something which excluded houses.

No surprise there, then. Once again, consumer law fails to apply where it
actually matters...

I have seen adverse comments about other well-known builders, too.

It's only as much of a lottery as buying any other house is, but expecting it
to be less of a lottery is being over-confident.
--
SAm.

On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 20:50:32 +0100, Mike Mitchell
wrote:

Yet another shocking link for anyone interested:

http://www.wronglybuilthouses.co.uk/

MM
(Tell me if I'm beginning to bore anyone. Health warning: I am the
most pedantic, nitpicky person in Britain. Not even that One Foot in
the Grave fellah comes close...!)

MM