Tracing underground water pipe
 

Is there any method (short of divining!)
for determining the course of an underground water supply?
[The outdoor stopcock appears to have been asphalted onver.]

--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail (80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

Timothy Murphy wrote:
Is there any method (short of divining!)
for determining the course of an underground water supply?
[The outdoor stopcock appears to have been asphalted onver.]

If it's metal, you can use a cable detector; you could probably hire
one. Some cable detectors come with a separate transmitter which is
attached to the pipe with a crocodile clip and sends an electronic
signal down the metal pipe. The detector unit is switched to the
relevant tracing mode and can detect this signal.

If it's plastic, then I haven't got a clue.

"Timothy Murphy" wrote in message
...
Is there any method (short of divining!)
for determining the course of an underground water supply?
[The outdoor stopcock appears to have been asphalted onver.]

--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail (80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

Why "short of divining"? It's easy and actually works. Nobody was more
sceptical than me, but some years ago a friend persuaded me to try it. He
gave me a couple of Biro tubes (with the refills taken out) and into each of
these he put an L shape piece of wire. Holding one in each hand, and held
horizontally, when I walked over a water pipe, (which he knew about but I
didn't) each loosely swinging arm of wire swung suddenly together. Just try
it.


Regards


Pat Macguire

"Timothy Murphy" wrote in message
...
Is there any method (short of divining!)

Diving works and if it works for you it's free .... I thought this was
garbage ... and one day a guy bent a couple of gas welding rods to an L
shape and showed me how to hold them and it works, I can follow the route of
pipes with water in them, mains cables & underground streams ... I am not
good enough to tell difference though - you need an expert for that.

Rick

"Rick Hughes" wrote in
:


"Timothy Murphy" wrote in message
...
Is there any method (short of divining!)

Diving works and if it works for you it's free .... I thought this was
garbage ... and one day a guy bent a couple of gas welding rods to an
L shape and showed me how to hold them and it works, I can follow the
route of pipes with water in them, mains cables & underground streams
... I am not good enough to tell difference though - you need an
expert for that.

I thought it would be better to find the water before diving?
--
Rod

www.annalaurie.co.uk

"Rick Hughes" wrote in message
...

"Timothy Murphy" wrote in message
...
Is there any method (short of divining!)

Diving works and if it works for you it's free .... I thought this was
garbage ... and one day a guy bent a couple of gas welding rods to an L
shape and showed me how to hold them and it works, I can follow the route
of
pipes with water in them, mains cables & underground streams ... I am not
good enough to tell difference though - you need an expert for that.

Rick


Same thing here, welding rods bent over...... amazing

"Syke" wrote in message
...

"Timothy Murphy" wrote in message
...
Is there any method (short of divining!)
for determining the course of an underground water supply?
[The outdoor stopcock appears to have been asphalted onver.]

--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail (80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

Why "short of divining"? It's easy and actually works. Nobody was more
sceptical than me, but some years ago a friend persuaded me to try it. He
gave me a couple of Biro tubes (with the refills taken out) and into each
of
these he put an L shape piece of wire. Holding one in each hand, and held
horizontally, when I walked over a water pipe, (which he knew about but I
didn't) each loosely swinging arm of wire swung suddenly together. Just
try
it.


Regards


Pat Macguire



great adaption with the biro tubes, not nessesary but will help I guess

"Aidan" wrote in message
oups.com...

Timothy Murphy wrote:
Is there any method (short of divining!)
for determining the course of an underground water supply?
[The outdoor stopcock appears to have been asphalted onver.]

If it's metal, you can use a cable detector; you could probably hire
one. Some cable detectors come with a separate transmitter which is
attached to the pipe with a crocodile clip and sends an electronic
signal down the metal pipe. The detector unit is switched to the
relevant tracing mode and can detect this signal.

If it's plastic, then I haven't got a clue.

If it's plastic you can inject a strong r.f. signal into the water and
search it out with a directional receiver.

Mike wrote:

If it's plastic you can inject a strong r.f. signal into the water and
search it out with a directional receiver.

I'm afraid the pipe is plastic.
Is your method real?
How do you "inject a strong r.f. signal into the water"?

--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail (80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

Timothy Murphy wrote:
Is there any method (short of divining!)
for determining the course of an underground water supply?
[The outdoor stopcock appears to have been asphalted onver.]


Give the local water company a call. They may be able to help. We had a
leak (I guess you can tell them you think you hava leak!) and a guy came
out with a long stick with an ear-piece on the end - ll very high tech.
He was able to pin point the leak to within 6 inches, so they should be
able to follow the path of the pipe.
Or try it yourself, it was simply a 4' metal rod, with a 2" disk screwed
to the top, he let me have a listen, amazing how much you could hear.
Press it firm to the ground, best over concrete or hard surface.

Mike

Mike Hibbert wrote:
Timothy Murphy wrote:

Is there any method (short of divining!)
for determining the course of an underground water supply?
[The outdoor stopcock appears to have been asphalted onver.]


Give the local water company a call. They may be able to help. We had a
leak (I guess you can tell them you think you hava leak!) and a guy came
out with a long stick with an ear-piece on the end - ll very high tech.
He was able to pin point the leak to within 6 inches, so they should be
able to follow the path of the pipe.
Or try it yourself, it was simply a 4' metal rod, with a 2" disk screwed
to the top, he let me have a listen, amazing how much you could hear.
Press it firm to the ground, best over concrete or hard surface.

If it's the stopcock where the water company service meets your pipework
then I think it's their responsibility and if you tell them you can't
find it they should come out and locate it and make it accessible for you.

Rick Hughes wrote:

"Timothy Murphy" wrote in message
...


Is there any method (short of divining!)



Diving works and if it works for you it's free .... I thought this was
garbage ... and one day a guy bent a couple of gas welding rods to an L
shape and showed me how to hold them and it works, I can follow the route of
pipes with water in them, mains cables & underground streams ... I am not
good enough to tell difference though - you need an expert for that.

Rick




Have a go at dowsing, it works for me too. (welding rods 8-10 inches long)
I traced the water main in a friends new house until I found myself
standing on the outdoor stop-cock grid that he hadn't spotted, in the
garden.
Just note that whatever is detected is under your feet rather than
under the rods.


I have also seen our local water authority man using dowsing rods!

A

John Stumbles wrote:

If it's the stopcock where the water company service meets your pipework
then I think it's their responsibility and if you tell them you can't
find it they should come out and locate it and make it accessible for you.

That's more or less what I have tried.
We don't have water companies as such here -
the local council is responsible for the supply.
They tell me that they do not keep any record of where stopcocks are,
so I am hoping they have some technical way of finding mine,
though I didn't get the impression that they had anything clever in mind.
In any case, the council's water expert is coming round on Monday to look.

I've actually located something with my grand-daughter's metal detector,
though whether it is the lost stopcock I'm not sure.
If it is then it is covered with quite a think layer of asphalt.
I'm wondering if I dig it up whether I can put the asphalt back,
as it is in the middle of a fairly well-used common driveway.

--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail (80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

Timothy Murphy wrote:
John Stumbles wrote:


If it's the stopcock where the water company service meets your pipework
then I think it's their responsibility and if you tell them you can't
find it they should come out and locate it and make it accessible for you.


That's more or less what I have tried.
We don't have water companies as such here -

sorry, didn't notice the .ie

all bets off on that score then :-)

Timothy Murphy wrote:
John Stumbles wrote:

If it's the stopcock where the water company service meets your
pipework then I think it's their responsibility and if you tell
them you can't find it they should come out and locate it and make
it accessible for you.

That's more or less what I have tried. We don't have water companies
as such here - the local council is responsible for the supply. They
tell me that they do not keep any record of where stopcocks are, so
I am hoping they have some technical way of finding mine,

But surely they're still going to be ultimately responsible for finding
the thing, even if they have to dig up half the street to do so? :-)

I've actually located something with my grand-daughter's metal
detector, though whether it is the lost stopcock I'm not sure.

Wouldn't have thought so. Unless it's a pretty sophisticated detector
the range is only going to be a few inches, and an external stop cock
will be much deeper than that. (If it was the stopcock, you'd probably
be able to trace the pipe too - assuming it's old, it will be metallic).

David

Lobster wrote:

I've actually located something with my grand-daughter's metal
detector, though whether it is the lost stopcock I'm not sure.

Wouldn't have thought so. Unless it's a pretty sophisticated detector
the range is only going to be a few inches, and an external stop cock
will be much deeper than that. (If it was the stopcock, you'd probably
be able to trace the pipe too - assuming it's old, it will be metallic).

I should have said that it may be the metal cap over the stopcock.
The pipe is plastic, unfortunately, as I can see it
where it leaves the house.

--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail (80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

John Stumbles wrote:

That's more or less what I have tried.
We don't have water companies as such here -

sorry, didn't notice the .ie

all bets off on that score then :-)

To be fair, I haven't noticed the water supply
is any worse here than in England, where I lived half my life.
In fact I would expect a better response here
in case of emergency.


--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail (80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

Timothy Murphy wrote:
Is there any method (short of divining!)
for determining the course of an underground water supply?
[The outdoor stopcock appears to have been asphalted onver.]

As an aside: why do you want to?;

"Ian Stirling" wrote in message
...
Timothy Murphy wrote:
Is there any method (short of divining!)
for determining the course of an underground water supply?
[The outdoor stopcock appears to have been asphalted onver.]

As an aside: why do you want to?;

This is of interest to me as well, because i am going to replace my service
pipe, easy, dig trench, lay pipe, stopcock my end, waterboard connect other
end BUT in the bumph it says that the old lead pipe should be capped so as
to not leave a dead leg. I share a supply at the moment with next doors and
the stop valve is in the pavement a good 20 yards from the corner of my
land, so I guess the pipe tee's somewhere in next doors front garden - how
do I decide where to dig ?

Regards Jeff

Jeff wrote:
"Ian Stirling" wrote in message
...

This is of interest to me as well, because i am going to replace my service
pipe, easy, dig trench, lay pipe, stopcock my end, waterboard connect other
end BUT in the bumph it says that the old lead pipe should be capped so as
to not leave a dead leg. I share a supply at the moment with next doors and
the stop valve is in the pavement a good 20 yards from the corner of my
land, so I guess the pipe tee's somewhere in next doors front garden - how
do I decide where to dig ?

Presumably the water co will have their own views on what to do in this
scenario? I would have thought the last thing you want to do is try and
trace the tee junction - could take forever! What if you cap off the
old lead pipe inside your house, next to where the new pipe enters?
I've seen that done before. Then you'd just need to dig directly from
the entry point to the water co's stop cock (they'll presumably fit a
second stop cock close to the original).

David

Lobster wrote :-
Jeff wrote:
This is of interest to me as well, because i am going to replace my
service
pipe, easy, dig trench, lay pipe, stopcock my end, waterboard connect
other
end BUT in the bumph it says that the old lead pipe should be capped so
as
to not leave a dead leg. I share a supply at the moment with next doors
and
the stop valve is in the pavement a good 20 yards from the corner of my
land, so I guess the pipe tee's somewhere in next doors front garden -
how
do I decide where to dig ?

Presumably the water co will have their own views on what to do in this
scenario? I would have thought the last thing you want to do is try and
trace the tee junction - could take forever! What if you cap off the
old lead pipe inside your house, next to where the new pipe enters?
I've seen that done before. Then you'd just need to dig directly from
the entry point to the water co's stop cock (they'll presumably fit a
second stop cock close to the original).

rough plan
_____________________
___________s__________ pavement
| | |
| ___ |___ | front gdns
| | | | |
mine

we'll have to see what they want, the notes say to cap at the join with the
other pipe to avoid dead legs and stagnant water, i'm hoping they'll put me
a stop valve in at the end of my drive but they might not go there as that
would mean digging up the road but when I remove my lead pipe they have to
remove theirs so you never know
Maybe they'll let me keep it for an out side tap ?

Regards Jeff

Timothy Murphy wrote:
though whether it is the lost stopcock I'm not sure.

If the aim of the exercise is to isolate your incoming mains, it might
be more sensible to hire a freezer and fit a stopcock in your property.
You can also, I believe, isolate MDPE plastic by squashing it with a
clamp. I think you can only do this once at one point. I haven't dome
it, so you'll have to research the manufacturers' web sites (Durapipe,
Georg Fischer) or pick the water suppliers' collective brains.

Timothy Murphy wrote:
John Stumbles wrote:


That's more or less what I have tried.
We don't have water companies as such here -

sorry, didn't notice the .ie

all bets off on that score then :-)


To be fair, I haven't noticed the water supply
is any worse here than in England, where I lived half my life.
In fact I would expect a better response here
in case of emergency.

By all accounts it would be hard for .ie supplies to be worse than those
in some .uk regions. However I meant that on your side of the luminous
green pond your water suppliers may not have the same responsibilities
for maintaining your stopcock that they do here.

"Timothy Murphy" wrote in message
...
Mike wrote:

If it's plastic you can inject a strong r.f. signal into the water and
search it out with a directional receiver.

I'm afraid the pipe is plastic.
Is your method real?
How do you "inject a strong r.f. signal into the water"?

The water is the conductor, not the plastic. Best method is using magnetic
resonance.

And yes - it's for real.

Why "short of divining"? It's easy and actually works.

Errrm. If it does you could win $1,000,000.
http://skepdic.com/dowsing.html

Would one of those CAT scanners from a hire shop work? They are
designed to stop JCB operators accidentally digging up water pipes.

Dave