"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
news

snip

** snip total amaturish drivel **



But you didn't, you left your clap-trap in tact.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
Well, if anyone was thrashing a car before this they should expect it
to fail in a big way, if it was using 'running in' oil. As should
anyone who thrashes a car before the oil is up to temperature even
*after* it's run in.

That is what the company car drivers do. That is what the point was.
Duh!!!

Then all company cars would need replacement engines, etc, early in their
lives. Before the warranty ran out. Which would stop makers selling to
fleets hat heavily discounted prices, as they'd loose money.

I've got even less time than those with no mechanical sympathy than
those who think that pouring in a tin of heavily advertised expensive
****e makes their engine or gearbox last forever. Because they're
fools. Like IMM, who believes every advert.

I never said pour in "****e", whatever that is. I said use fully
synthetic oils as all the sensible people here have all said. Read what
I write regarding the oil research lab. They told and showed me all
about it.

They 'told' you? Methinks you're even more
off with the fairies than usual.

I worked there for 2 months, and those tribologists never looked like
fairies to me. They ran their own cars on synthetics and tested the oil for
degradation every month or so before changing. They would change the filter
at approx the makers intervals. One went 60,000 miles before an oil change
in a SAAB.

Please keep using cheap lousy oil, as you need too. Be my guest and
please use the cheapest oil you can find, the very cheapest of the
cheapest, and leave it in for 30,000 miles. You need to do this, you
really do. This I'm sure will give you great satisfaction.

Synthetic oils only have an advantage
in that they allow longer service
intervals with normal cars.

Absolute crap!!!! That is ye old ale house talk. The only thing you have
correct is that they have longevity. 80-90% of an engines wear using
mineral oils is in the start up phase. This is where synthetics score. The
oil is thin at low temperatures and thicker at higher temperatures, the
opposite to mineral which can be like treacle in below zero conditions and
like gnats **** at high temperatures. As soon as the crank is turned the
oil is at the bearings, far quicker than thick treacle mineral oil, which
only starts to lubricate properly when fully warmed up. Mineral oil will
lubricate properly at start up, but only if you do what ships engineers do,
who pre-heat the engines water and oil and get the oil pressure to normal
before turning the crank. As you don't do that in a car your wear factor on
start-up using minerals oils is phenomenal, whereas with synthetics the wear
factor is so minimal to not worth considering.

Then there is the hot spots in an engine that will bake mineral oils onto
metal. For e.g, in the old A series the cam followers sometimes would be
black baked on and flaky oil deposits. Engine hot spots can be in traffics
jams as the water pump is not turning fast enough to cool properly.
Variable speed electric water pumps are far better in this respect as they
can give the flow to what the engine demands, not the hit and miss from a
crank speed.

Hot spots in an engine will do no harm to synthetic oil and synthetic oils
will also cool better, they take heat away better than mineral oils.

Synthetic oil also has far high shear. That is it is very difficult to
compress and keeps metal surfaces apart far better than mineral oils. The
ultimate aim of lubrication.

It will still be as good as new on a 9,000 miles service interval, while
mineral will be far past its best after 3-4,000 miles.

When burnt in the combustion chamber it does far less harm to the cat than
mineral oils. Cats last far, far longer when run with synthetic oils.

You can change mineral oils every weekend, but it will still not lubricate
and protect better than synthetics. It is as simple as that.

Now read all this and do not respond with the usual illiterate crap. And
silly Jerry, just do not respond at all.

Please keep using the cheapest crappy supermarket mineral oil you can find.
Be my guest. The info above is not for your benefits as others will read
it.




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............SSSNNIIPPP........

Synthetic oils only have an advantage in that they allow longer service
intervals with normal cars. Your post suggested they stopped wear in
abused engines at extremely low milages - so low the cars would still be
within warranty.

Please make up your mind.

--
*If your feet smell and your nose runs, you're built upside down.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave,

I can't believe you just wrote that unless,

a) someone is impersonating you....then it wouldn't have been you anyway,
b) you are bored and felt like starting a flame war
c) you have had several too many tonight....

Synthetic oils are WAY better than conventional mineral oils, both in lubricity
and longevity
for starters. They resist temperature extremes better, both more fluid when
cold and by getting
thicker at elevated temperatures by uncoiling their molecules.... they are more
slippery to the extent
that in some wet clutch motorcycle engines ( and doubtless countless other
applications) they are
excluded from being able to be used as the clutch would slip.

If they were little better then I am sure the manufacturers would have been
rumbled and not
be able to sell enough of the stuff to make it viable, certainly not at the
price they demand.


The bit about the suggestion that it "stopped wear in abused engines at
extremely low mileages"
is debateable - if parts are so slack that they are bashing themselves into
oblivion then nothing
will stop that, but that's not my point or argument ...

Nick

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Synthetic oils only have an advantage in that they allow longer service
intervals with normal cars.

Not totally true.

With fully synth oils you can control viscosity changes with temperature
better, so get better circulation when cold and less chance of breakdown
when hot.

As well,.

This make sthemn very useful for highlty stressed engines, and for
engines that may run in cold climates and yet get very hot as well.

Not really your average shopping trolley though.



Your post suggested they stopped wear in
abused engines at extremely low milages - so low the cars would still be
within warranty.

Please make up your mind.

What mind would that be Dave?

"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
snip
I write regarding the oil research lab. They told and showed me all
about it.

They 'told' you? Methinks you're even more
off with the fairies than usual.

I worked there for 2 months,

And you now consider yourself an expert ! Dream on...

nick smith wrote:

...........SSSNNIIPPP........


Synthetic oils only have an advantage in that they allow longer service
intervals with normal cars. Your post suggested they stopped wear in
abused engines at extremely low milages - so low the cars would still be
within warranty.

Please make up your mind.

--
*If your feet smell and your nose runs, you're built upside down.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


Dave,

I can't believe you just wrote that unless,

a) someone is impersonating you....then it wouldn't have been you anyway,
b) you are bored and felt like starting a flame war
c) you have had several too many tonight....

Synthetic oils are WAY better than conventional mineral oils, both in lubricity
and longevity
for starters. They resist temperature extremes better, both more fluid when
cold and by getting
thicker at elevated temperatures by uncoiling their molecules.... they are more
slippery to the extent
that in some wet clutch motorcycle engines ( and doubtless countless other
applications) they are
excluded from being able to be used as the clutch would slip.

If they were little better then I am sure the manufacturers would have been
rumbled and not
be able to sell enough of the stuff to make it viable, certainly not at the
price they demand.


The bit about the suggestion that it "stopped wear in abused engines at
extremely low mileages"
is debateable - if parts are so slack that they are bashing themselves into
oblivion then nothing
will stop that, but that's not my point or argument ...

Nick


It all goes back to my point, that, like gold plated litz stranded HiFi
cables, there are some advantages, but overall in most applications the
differences are so slight as to be totally not worth the extra cash.

"nick smith" wrote in message
...


...........SSSNNIIPPP........

Synthetic oils only have an advantage in that they allow longer service
intervals with normal cars. Your post suggested they stopped wear in
abused engines at extremely low milages - so low the cars would still be
within warranty.

Please make up your mind.

--
*If your feet smell and your nose runs, you're built upside down.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave,

I can't believe you just wrote that unless,

a) someone is impersonating you....then it wouldn't have been you anyway,
b) you are bored and felt like starting a flame war
c) you have had several too many tonight....

Synthetic oils are WAY better than conventional mineral oils, both in
lubricity
and longevity
for starters.

Only were the engine has been designed to use such oil, are you seriously
suggesting that someone should use synthetic oils in a Ford Pop 100E engine
?

They resist temperature extremes better, both more fluid when
cold and by getting
thicker at elevated temperatures by uncoiling their molecules.... they are
more
slippery to the extent
that in some wet clutch motorcycle engines ( and doubtless countless other
applications) they are
excluded from being able to be used as the clutch would slip.

Exactly, in some situations they will cause more problems that they solve,
this whole thread started because 'top gear' said bung synthetic in - it
will cure all your problems - that is simply un true.


If they were little better then I am sure the manufacturers would have
been
rumbled and not
be able to sell enough of the stuff to make it viable, certainly not at
the
price they demand.


Well, lets put it this way, K&N manage to sell enough 'Go Faster' air
filters, Cat-O-clean sell enough 'magic fluid' to make marketing it
worthwhile to those who believe all the hype and non of the realities so why
not those marketing synthetic oils ?...

"nick smith" wrote in message
...


...........SSSNNIIPPP........

Synthetic oils only have an advantage in that they allow longer service
intervals with normal cars. Your post suggested they stopped wear in
abused engines at extremely low milages - so low the cars would still be
within warranty.

Please make up your mind.

--
*If your feet smell and your nose runs, you're built upside down.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave,

I can't believe you just wrote that

I can. Have you read what he writes?


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"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
nick smith wrote:

...........SSSNNIIPPP........


Synthetic oils only have an advantage in that they allow longer service
intervals with normal cars. Your post suggested they stopped wear in
abused engines at extremely low milages - so low the cars would still be
within warranty.

Please make up your mind.

--
*If your feet smell and your nose runs, you're built upside down.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


Dave,

I can't believe you just wrote that unless,

a) someone is impersonating you....then it wouldn't have been you
anyway,
b) you are bored and felt like starting a flame war
c) you have had several too many tonight....

Synthetic oils are WAY better than conventional mineral oils, both in
lubricity
and longevity
for starters. They resist temperature extremes better, both more fluid
when
cold and by getting
thicker at elevated temperatures by uncoiling their molecules.... they
are more
slippery to the extent
that in some wet clutch motorcycle engines ( and doubtless countless
other
applications) they are
excluded from being able to be used as the clutch would slip.

If they were little better then I am sure the manufacturers would have
been
rumbled and not
be able to sell enough of the stuff to make it viable, certainly not at
the
price they demand.


The bit about the suggestion that it "stopped wear in abused engines at
extremely low mileages"
is debateable - if parts are so slack that they are bashing themselves
into
oblivion then nothing
will stop that, but that's not my point or argument ...

Nick

It all goes back to my point, that, like gold plated litz stranded HiFi
cables, there are some advantages, but overall in most applications the
differences are so slight as to be totally not worth the extra cash.

Read my post on this, on startup protection.



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:::Jerry:::: wrote:

"nick smith" wrote in message
...


...........SSSNNIIPPP........


Synthetic oils only have an advantage in that they allow longer service
intervals with normal cars. Your post suggested they stopped wear in
abused engines at extremely low milages - so low the cars would still be
within warranty.

Please make up your mind.

--
*If your feet smell and your nose runs, you're built upside down.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave,

I can't believe you just wrote that unless,

a) someone is impersonating you....then it wouldn't have been you anyway,
b) you are bored and felt like starting a flame war
c) you have had several too many tonight....

Synthetic oils are WAY better than conventional mineral oils, both in

lubricity

and longevity
for starters.


Only were the engine has been designed to use such oil, are you seriously
suggesting that someone should use synthetic oils in a Ford Pop 100E engine
?

They resist temperature extremes better, both more fluid when

cold and by getting
thicker at elevated temperatures by uncoiling their molecules.... they are

more

slippery to the extent
that in some wet clutch motorcycle engines ( and doubtless countless other
applications) they are
excluded from being able to be used as the clutch would slip.


Exactly, in some situations they will cause more problems that they solve,
this whole thread started because 'top gear' said bung synthetic in - it
will cure all your problems - that is simply un true.


If they were little better then I am sure the manufacturers would have

been

rumbled and not
be able to sell enough of the stuff to make it viable, certainly not at

the

price they demand.



Well, lets put it this way, K&N manage to sell enough 'Go Faster' air
filters, Cat-O-clean sell enough 'magic fluid' to make marketing it
worthwhile to those who believe all the hype and non of the realities so why
not those marketing synthetic oils ?...


C'mon. K & N flters would indeed with a tuned engine with wild camshaft,
oversize carbs, opened up ports, and a tuned exhaust, add another few bhp.

Of course in the average shopping trolley, they were irrelevant.

Doctor Evil wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

nick smith wrote:


...........SSSNNIIPPP........



Synthetic oils only have an advantage in that they allow longer service
intervals with normal cars. Your post suggested they stopped wear in
abused engines at extremely low milages - so low the cars would still be
within warranty.

Please make up your mind.

--
*If your feet smell and your nose runs, you're built upside down.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


Dave,

I can't believe you just wrote that unless,

a) someone is impersonating you....then it wouldn't have been you

anyway,

b) you are bored and felt like starting a flame war
c) you have had several too many tonight....

Synthetic oils are WAY better than conventional mineral oils, both in

lubricity

and longevity
for starters. They resist temperature extremes better, both more fluid

when

cold and by getting
thicker at elevated temperatures by uncoiling their molecules.... they

are more

slippery to the extent
that in some wet clutch motorcycle engines ( and doubtless countless

other

applications) they are
excluded from being able to be used as the clutch would slip.

If they were little better then I am sure the manufacturers would have

been

rumbled and not
be able to sell enough of the stuff to make it viable, certainly not at

the

price they demand.


The bit about the suggestion that it "stopped wear in abused engines at
extremely low mileages"
is debateable - if parts are so slack that they are bashing themselves

into

oblivion then nothing
will stop that, but that's not my point or argument ...

Nick


It all goes back to my point, that, like gold plated litz stranded HiFi
cables, there are some advantages, but overall in most applications the
differences are so slight as to be totally not worth the extra cash.


Read my post on this, on startup protection.


I did, and really its was 99% ********.

Oil still exists around all bearings on a cold engine. If its really
cold, the manufacturer will recommend thinner oil for winter conditions
anyway.

The engine should be under almost no load, and, with modern fuel
injection, there is no advantage to starting on anything other than low
throttle.

That in itself is a far greater saver of engines than anything else.

Not that we were talking about engines till someone changed the subject.
There are as I already said no oil pumps in (most) gearboxes.

Fully synth oil is great for racing engines, but cooking engines are
designed to work on 'cooking' oil. They will as has been pointed out
outlast the car.

My brother in law has recently scrapped his trusty Vauxhall cavalier
after 200,000 odd miles and about 12 years of use simply because The
half a dozen things wrong - worn CV's, failing injections sensor
(probably) far exceed the cost of simply buying another equally tatty one.

You could indeed hear a bit of bearing wear on a cold start, but so what?

Other things had worn quicker.








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In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
They 'told' you? Methinks you're even more
off with the fairies than usual.

I worked there for 2 months, and those tribologists never looked like
fairies to me. They ran their own cars on synthetics and tested the oil
for degradation every month or so before changing. They would change the
filter at approx the makers intervals. One went 60,000 miles before an
oil change in a SAAB.

Now let me see. They tested the oil every month or so before changing.
Any decent *dino* oil will do 10,000 miles of easy use ok. So you're
talking about a vehicle doing 120,000 miles a year?

Or are you just wanting to pick an argument about whether synthetic lasts
longer than dino? Don't bother. I agree with you.

Please keep using cheap lousy oil, as you need too. Be my guest and
please use the cheapest oil you can find, the very cheapest of the
cheapest, and leave it in for 30,000 miles. You need to do this, you
really do. This I'm sure will give you great satisfaction.

Synthetic oils only have an advantage
in that they allow longer service
intervals with normal cars.

Absolute crap!!!! That is ye old ale house talk. The only thing you have
correct is that they have longevity. 80-90% of an engines wear using
mineral oils is in the start up phase. This is where synthetics score.

So any engine using non synthetic will wear out 'quickly'? Is this in the
same vein as your boilers which are over 100% efficient? Ie, you just
don't understand anything other than adverts?

The oil is thin at low temperatures and thicker at higher temperatures,
the opposite to mineral which can be like treacle in below zero
conditions and like gnats **** at high temperatures.

Oh dear. You don't understand viscosity either? You're making a fool of
yourself - again...

As soon as the crank is turned the oil is at the bearings, far quicker
than thick treacle mineral oil, which only starts to lubricate properly
when fully warmed up. Mineral oil will lubricate properly at start up,
but only if you do what ships engineers do, who pre-heat the engines
water and oil and get the oil pressure to normal before turning the
crank. As you don't do that in a car your wear factor on start-up using
minerals oils is phenomenal, whereas with synthetics the wear factor is
so minimal to not worth considering.

I'm surprised engines lasted long enough for motoring to become popular.

Then there is the hot spots in an engine that will bake mineral oils
onto metal. For e.g, in the old A series the cam followers sometimes
would be black baked on and flaky oil deposits. Engine hot spots can be
in traffics jams as the water pump is not turning fast enough to cool
properly. Variable speed electric water pumps are far better in this
respect as they can give the flow to what the engine demands, not the
hit and miss from a crank speed.

You'll be telling us next to run our central heating pumps on maximum
because the house will heat up faster. You prat.

Hot spots in an engine will do no harm to synthetic oil and synthetic
oils will also cool better, they take heat away better than mineral oils.

Synthetic oil also has far high shear. That is it is very difficult to
compress and keeps metal surfaces apart far better than mineral oils.
The ultimate aim of lubrication.

It will still be as good as new on a 9,000 miles service interval, while
mineral will be far past its best after 3-4,000 miles.

Your magic figures again. Completely devoid of any qualifications.

When burnt in the combustion chamber it does far less harm to the cat
than mineral oils. Cats last far, far longer when run with synthetic
oils.

You can change mineral oils every weekend, but it will still not
lubricate and protect better than synthetics. It is as simple as that.

Now read all this and do not respond with the usual illiterate crap. And
silly Jerry, just do not respond at all.

The correct response to this would be 'snip the usual IMM misinformation
based on a total misunderstanding of principles, but just reading adverts'
So nothing new there.

Please keep using the cheapest crappy supermarket mineral oil you can
find. Be my guest. The info above is not for your benefits as others
will read it.

Actually, some 'supermarket' oil is really rather good at the price. And
better than heavily advertised oils at many times the price.
Clue. Look at the specs on the can. They ain't advertising. They're
properly controlled.

--
*No radio - Already stolen.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
nick smith wrote:
Synthetic oils only have an advantage in that they allow longer service
intervals with normal cars. Your post suggested they stopped wear in
abused engines at extremely low milages - so low the cars would still be
within warranty.

Please make up your mind.

Dave,

I can't believe you just wrote that unless,

a) someone is impersonating you....then it wouldn't have been you anyway,
b) you are bored and felt like starting a flame war
c) you have had several too many tonight....

None of those.

Synthetic oils are WAY better than conventional mineral oils, both in
lubricity and longevity for starters. They resist temperature extremes
better, both more fluid when cold and by getting thicker at elevated
temperatures by uncoiling their molecules.... they are more slippery to
the extent that in some wet clutch motorcycle engines ( and doubtless
countless other applications) they are excluded from being able to be
used as the clutch would slip.

We're discussing cars here. Normal cars of the Cavalier sort as our
resident idiot has decided to make his point with. So don't have wet
clutches.
FFS, adding Molyslip - years ago - to motorbike gearboxes made the
clutch slip - as it would to an auto box. But oil makers don't add it to
engine oil today - or ever. Wet clutches requirements just ain't the same
as other things.

If they were little better then I am sure the manufacturers would have
been rumbled and not be able to sell enough of the stuff to make it
viable, certainly not at the price they demand.

It is excellent at increasing oil change intervals. Near enough full stop.
Generally, engines have been exceeding the average economic life of the
*entire* car for some many years now - unless they suffer a failure
unrelated to the lubrication system. If you don't believe me, try and find
a local engine reconditioner who can re-bore and grind cranks, etc. At one
time every small town had one.

The bit about the suggestion that it "stopped wear in abused engines at
extremely low mileages" is debateable - if parts are so slack that they
are bashing themselves into oblivion then nothing will stop that, but
that's not my point or argument ...

It *was* mine. ;-)

Our resident clown (Adam, IMM, Dr Evil, John or whatever) was suggesting
that modern engines were failing regularly at very low mileages until he
'discovered' synthetic oil. He's talking the usual ****e.

--
*How can I miss you if you won't go away?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
They 'told' you? Methinks you're even more
off with the fairies than usual.

I worked there for 2 months, and those tribologists never looked like
fairies to me. They ran their own cars on synthetics and tested the oil
for degradation every month or so before changing. They would change the
filter at approx the makers intervals. One went 60,000 miles before an
oil change in a SAAB.

Now let me see. They tested the oil every month or so before changing.

Good 10/10.

Any decent *dino* oil will do 10,000
miles of easy use ok.

snip irrelevant babble

Please keep using crap, cheap minerals oil. Please do. Synthetic oils are
not for you at all. Don't let any of the sensible people here be in your
way. Walk into the local cheapo supermarket with your chest sticking out and
say with loud voice, "cheap crappy oil please". Keep it in your car engine
for at least 30,000 miles. Please do. You deserve each other.





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The Natural Philosopher wrote:

C'mon. K & N flters would indeed with a tuned engine with wild camshaft,
oversize carbs, opened up ports, and a tuned exhaust, add another few bhp.

A standard filter with a "tuned engine with wild camshaft, oversize
carbs, opened up ports, and a tuned exhaust, add another few bhp"

Obvious typo fixed


--

No Spam wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:


C'mon. K & N flters would indeed with a tuned engine with wild camshaft,
oversize carbs, opened up ports, and a tuned exhaust, add another few bhp.


A standard filter with a "tuned engine with wild camshaft, oversize
carbs, opened up ports, and a tuned exhaust, add another few bhp"

Obvious typo fixed


No. You are actually wrong there.

I went down this route once, with a triumph engine I still actually have.

Tests were done, and it went like this

- addition of free flow exhaust 15 bhp.
- addition of larger carburettors - 10 bhp
- camshaft upgrade (and attendant needle changes in the SU's) - 5-15bhp
depending on the profile.
- K & N pancake filters as against standard boxed up lump - 5 bhp.


That was where I stopped, because things like

- twin choke weber and manifold to suit - another 3-4bhp
- over sized valves and a re-worked head for another 3-4bhp

got silly, and the bottom end was already struggling to cope.

The point being that at the high gas flow rates I could then get, the K
& N's did offer a few percent more power.

At lower rates - without the rest of the stuff - they really made sod
all difference except to the noise.

Each engine has its key spot - the point at which you can improve gas
flow the most - its gas flow bottleneck. Or its has maybe a lubrication
weakness, or a crankcase weakness - remember Andy Rouse and the illegal
cross-bolted crank bearings to allow HIS rover 3.5's to do more RPM than
anyone else's without disintegrating?


On BMC B series engines for example, it was the actual cylinder head.
Nothing you did to the exhaust or carbs or camshaft made any difference
- a head change with gas flowed ports did.

A series engines with Siamesed ports benefited hugely from better
exhausts, bigger carbs and a hotter camshaft.

The triumph 1500 engine I had was similar, except the head design was
better. Its weakness was the three bearing crankshaft.

For engines were also quite amenable to tuning, but had weak camshafts IIRC.

Its precisely analogous to fully synth oil: IF you want the ultimate
power and you tune an engine way up beyond its normal state of tune,
things like K & N filters, oil coolers, fully synth oil etc. etc. get
you more power and reliability.

But simply sticking them on an engine in standard tune is pin-stripe
engineering at its worst.

The sort of BS that attracts idiots like IMM and so on. They read the
blurb 'in tests on our (completely non standard and nothing like your
shopping trolley) car product XYZ showed a 15% increase in engine
power/relaibility/bird-pulling ability' etc etc.

And then naively assume that it will have the same effect on their
peugot 305 or whatever.

The most remarkable accidental increase in power happened to me whilst
struggling to swap in an A series engine in a Midget. It fell over and
broke the exhaust manifold.

The cheapest I could find in a hurry was a long center branch welded
steel thing. That alone added 8mph to the cars top speed.

I could get another 1-2mph out of 5 star petrol, and about another 3mph
on a cold misty morning.

Oil? Made naff all difference really. Those engines only did about 60k
miles whatever you did to em, apart from a new bearing set every 30,000.

My point? In a tuning scenario, all this stuff can and does make useful
and measurable differences. In a shopping trolley scenario, it may make
a measurable difference, but it is seldom significant. And almost never
worth the extra expense.

If you want an engine and tranmission to last, change the oil
frequently, don't hammer it till fully warm, or when very hot, don't
over rev it, double declutch and treat your synchro gently, and don't
drop the clutch with a bang and burn rubber.

That makes infinitely more difference than what oil you put in, provided
it's above a mimimum acceptable standard.

Rubbish - a nylon stocking was the cure :-)

Not in east London - sawdust or rough string :-)

Dave

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

The sort of BS that attracts idiots like
IMM and so on. They read the
blurb 'in tests on our (completely non
standard and nothing like your

OddBall, read what I write - if you can focus that long. See the post on
this thread, lubrication test labs. Since I worked there I have always
used full synthetic. Unlike fools like yourself, those experts know what
they are on about. Take expert advice, don't make things up.



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"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

The sort of BS that attracts idiots like
IMM and so on. They read the
blurb 'in tests on our (completely non
standard and nothing like your

OddBall, read what I write - if you can focus that long. See the post on
this thread, lubrication test labs. Since I worked there I have always
used full synthetic. Unlike fools like yourself, those experts know what
they are on about. Take expert advice, don't make things up.


You worked there, on your own admission, for TWO months - 'nough said....

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

The sort of BS that attracts idiots like
IMM and so on. They read the
blurb 'in tests on our (completely non
standard and nothing like your

OddBall, read what I write - if you can focus that long. See the post on
this thread, lubrication test labs. Since I worked there I have
always
used full synthetic. Unlike fools like yourself, those experts know what
they are on about. Take expert advice, don't make things up.

You

Please use the cheapest mineral oils you can find. Keep it in your engine
for 40,000 miles. That will do you fine.


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"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

The sort of BS that attracts idiots like
IMM and so on. They read the
blurb 'in tests on our (completely non
standard and nothing like your

OddBall, read what I write - if you can focus that long. See the post
on
this thread, lubrication test labs. Since I worked there I have
always
used full synthetic. Unlike fools like yourself, those experts know
what
they are on about. Take expert advice, don't make things up.

You

Please use the cheapest mineral oils you can find. Keep it in your engine
for 40,000 miles. That will do you fine.


Those that will receive no benefit from more expencive synthetic oil will
continue to be used with the required spec of mineral oil, those that
require the use of (and thus are designed to use) synthetic oils will use
synthetic oils.

You carry on chucking good money after bad for no worthwhile gain, I know
who is the real mug and it's not me !

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

The sort of BS that attracts idiots like
IMM and so on. They read the
blurb 'in tests on our (completely non
standard and nothing like your

OddBall, read what I write - if you can focus that long. See the
post
on
this thread, lubrication test labs. Since I worked there I have
always
used full synthetic. Unlike fools like yourself, those experts know
what
they are on about. Take expert advice, don't make things up.

You

Please use the cheapest mineral oils you can find. Keep it in your
engine
for 40,000 miles. That will do you fine.

Those that will receive

You are obviously so mean to the point it clouds any reasoning, so, please
use the cheapest mineral oils you can find. Keep it in your engine for
40,000 miles. That will do you fine. It is what you need to do. You will be
very saisfied after 40,000 miles I'm very sure.




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"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

snip

You are obviously so mean to the point it clouds any reasoning,
snip the rest of IMM clap

No, I'm by not mean, it's just that I understand the issues (probably due to
more that a 25 years of sealing with the issues), unlike you and your 2
months....

Are you really saying that it's worthwhile, safe and economic to use fully
synthetic (or even semi synthetic) oil in for example a bog standard Ford
Pop' 100E or 850 Mini ? If you are then you are even more of an idiot than I
thought - The marketing men must love you....

In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
Please use the cheapest mineral oils you can find. Keep it in your engine
for 40,000 miles. That will do you fine.

Why would anyone with half a brain cell not stick to the maker's
recommended oil change intervals? Or use the 'cheapest' oil unless
suitable?

Hint. All oils - or rather decent oils sold by a reputable organisation -
will have their spec on the container. Provided that spec meets - or
exceeds - the spec required by the car maker, and the oil is changed
according to the car maker's requirements, the engine will come to no harm.

Of course you seem to think fixed term 'servicing' is the answer to
everything. Especially the profits of the person doing that servicing. And
don't consider the costs to the customer.

Now if you have more than half a brain cell, it's possible to use a better
spec oil and extend the service intervals for changing this. After all,
engine makers have been doing this with essentially the same engines for
many years.

Clue. Look at oil change intervals for the Austin A-Series in the late
'40s. Then in its last incarnation in the Mini the '90s. And consider also
the improved filtration.

--
*A journey of a thousand sites begins with a single click *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
Please use the cheapest mineral oils you can find. Keep it in your
engine
for 40,000 miles. That will do you fine.

Why would anyone with half a brain cell not stick to the maker's
recommended oil change intervals? Or use the 'cheapest' oil unless
suitable?

This is what you should do. It is the best way for you. It really is. Go
for it, think of that few quid you will save on oil. Go for it!



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In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
Why would anyone with half a brain cell not stick to the maker's
recommended oil change intervals? Or use the 'cheapest' oil unless
suitable?

This is what you should do.

No - you do it. After all you're the 'expert' on everything here. The real
expert at spending other's money.

It is the best way for you. It really is. Go
for it, think of that few quid you will save on oil. Go for it!

I never try and save money in the short term to end up spending more
overall. I leave that to prats like you who don't have a clue.

Advice. Go back to your favourite website on synthetic oil and read it
*carefully*. Then read it again. Even more carefully. Then - if you have
understood the issues - comment.

Fat chance.

--
*My dog can lick anyone

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
Why would anyone with half a brain cell not stick to the maker's
recommended oil change intervals? Or use the 'cheapest' oil unless
suitable?

This is what you should do.

No - you do it. After all you're the 'expert' on everything here. The real
expert at spending other's money.

I don't want tro spend your money and I don't want you to spend your money
either. Buy the cheapest mineral oil available and run it for 40,000 miles.
Think of that few quid you will save. This you SHOULD do.









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In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
No - you do it. After all you're the 'expert' on everything here. The
real expert at spending other's money.

I don't want tro spend your money and I don't want you to spend your
money either. Buy the cheapest mineral oil available and run it for
40,000 miles. Think of that few quid you will save. This you SHOULD do.

So you're advising others to wreck their engines? Why do you contribute to
a DIY group when you spout such rubbish?

Since you're so good at quoting specs without understanding them, perhaps
you'd quote any car maker that recommends 40,000 mile oil change intervals
using the cheapest mineral oil available?

Clue. If you do some research, you'll find approx 20,000 miles being the
max using the finest fully synthetic. Or about half that using high spec
mineral oils.

--
*A conscience is what hurts when all your other parts feel so good *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
No - you do it. After all you're the 'expert' on everything here. The
real expert at spending other's money.

I don't want tro spend your money and I don't want you to spend your
money either. Buy the cheapest mineral oil available and run it for
40,000 miles. Think of that few quid you will save. This you SHOULD do.

So you're advising others to wreck their engines?

Not in the least. I advise people to use full synthetic oils because of
their superior lubrication qualities. You don't want to use these, or have
your engine properly lubriacted, and have made this clear. This is your
choice. So it is best for you to buy the cheapest oil from the cheapest
supermaket and put it in for 40,000 miles. Think of the few quid you would
have saved. Who cares if the engine sounds like a can of nuts being rattled.
Just think of that few bob you saved. This is the best approach for you and
you should do it now. I'm sure it will give you great satisfaction.



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In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
So you're advising others to wreck their engines?

Not in the least. I advise people to use full synthetic oils because of
their superior lubrication qualities.

But as usual have a one size fits all answer. If you did some serious
research, you'd discover that fully synthetic isn't suitable for all
engines or gearboxes - especially some older ones.

You don't want to use these, or have
your engine properly lubriacted, and have made this clear.

No - I want accurate information, not your usual guessing based on half
read advertising, which you then regurgitate as gospel.

This is your choice. So it is best for you to buy the cheapest oil from
the cheapest supermaket and put it in for 40,000 miles. Think of the few
quid you would have saved. Who cares if the engine sounds like a can of
nuts being rattled. Just think of that few bob you saved. This is the
best approach for you and you should do it now. I'm sure it will give
you great satisfaction.

Carry on making a fool of yourself.

I'm happy to accept the car makers know more about their products and how
to maintain them than you.

--
*Frankly, scallop, I don't give a clam

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
No - you do it. After all you're the 'expert' on everything here.
The
real expert at spending other's money.

I don't want tro spend your money and I don't want you to spend your
money either. Buy the cheapest mineral oil available and run it for
40,000 miles. Think of that few quid you will save. This you SHOULD
do.

So you're advising others to wreck their engines?

Not in the least. I advise people to use full synthetic oils because of
their superior lubrication qualities. You don't want to use these, or have
your engine properly lubriacted, and have made this clear. This is your
choice.

He has stated endlessly that he uses synthetic oils were their use is
warranted, you OTOH seem to want people to use synthetic oils even were
their use will give no benefit and possible cause problems.

So it is best for you to buy the cheapest oil from the cheapest
supermaket and put it in for 40,000 miles.

What is it with you and this 40,000 mile figure, is that the point at which
you change your synthetic oils ?.... I certainly hope not, at least not if
you don't have your oil analysed !

Think of the few quid you would
have saved. Who cares if the engine sounds like a can of nuts being
rattled.
Just think of that few bob you saved. This is the best approach for you
and
you should do it now. I'm sure it will give you great satisfaction.


IMM, you clueless moron, you really don't understand the first thing about
lubrication, and to think that you (supposedly) worked in a oil research
lab - for two whole months - talk about ROFLMAO...

Clue, even mineral oils *could* go further than 40.000 miles, synthetic oils
*could* fail at less miles, this is why your lab 'friends' put samples of
their engine oil etc. in to the oil analyser - so they knew exactly what
condition the oil was in, it could have shown up many things that would have
had them changing the oil after a very short period of time / miles, it
could have even made them remove and strip the engine down for inspection,
not just that the oil didn't need changing.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
So you're advising others to wreck their engines?

Not in the least. I advise people to use full synthetic oils because of
their superior lubrication qualities.

But as usual have a one size fits all answer.

You don't want to use the oils, or have your engine properly lubriacted, and
have made this clear. This is your choice. So it is best for you to buy the
cheapest oil from the cheapest supermaket and put it in for 40,000 miles.
Think of the few quid you would have saved. Who cares if the engine sounds
like a can of nuts being rattled. Just think of that few bob you saved. This
is the best approach for you and you should do it now. I'm sure it will
give you great satisfaction.



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:::Jerry:::: wrote:

"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...


The sort of BS that attracts idiots like
IMM and so on. They read the
blurb 'in tests on our (completely non
standard and nothing like your

OddBall, read what I write - if you can focus that long. See the post on
this thread, lubrication test labs. Since I worked there I have always
used full synthetic. Unlike fools like yourself, those experts know what
they are on about. Take expert advice, don't make things up.



You worked there, on your own admission, for TWO months - 'nough said....


Longest job he ever held down.

In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
But as usual have a one size fits all answer.

You don't want to use the oils, or have your engine properly lubriacted,
and have made this clear. This is your choice. So it is best for you to
buy the cheapest oil from the cheapest supermaket and put it in for
40,000 miles. Think of the few quid you would have saved.

Do you use two combis to heat your car? Replace the brake pipes with
plastic cut with a hacksaw?

Tip. Learn how to read the specs of oil off the tin. A little research
will soon give you clue.

--
*Ambition is a poor excuse for not having enough sense to be lazy *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

like a can of nuts

Yes you are !

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
t...
:::Jerry:::: wrote:

"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...


The sort of BS that attracts idiots like
IMM and so on. They read the
blurb 'in tests on our (completely non
standard and nothing like your

OddBall, read what I write - if you can focus that long. See the post on
this thread, lubrication test labs. Since I worked there I have
always
used full synthetic. Unlike fools like yourself, those experts know what
they are on about. Take expert advice, don't make things up.



You worked there, on your own admission, for TWO months - 'nough
said....


Longest job he ever held down.

And he still can't make tea or sweep the floor....

The message
from ":::Jerry::::" contains these words:

IMM, you clueless moron, you really don't understand the first thing about
lubrication, and to think that you (supposedly) worked in a oil research
lab - for two whole months - talk about ROFLMAO...

To be fair he didn't actually say in what capacity (teaboy or cleaner?)
or whether he was fired at the end of those 2 months.

--
Roger

Mark wrote:
Hi

I have a 10 year old Ford Escort with 92,000 miles on the clock. It's
served me well but I need to get another 12 months/15,000 miles out
of
it before I replace it. Over the last 10,000 miles the gearbox has
started to whine, nothing major but the frequency is particularly
annoying, especially at motorway speeds. Is there any additive that
would make an improvement or have I got to live with it? A friend
suggested "molyslip", anyone tried this?
Thanks
Mark

Well done, Mark, who would have thought oil treatment would get them as
riled up as power tool manufacturers and push fit plumbing! ;-)

It was somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "top gear"
saying something like:

Really, your advice is misleading ********.

Say that to my auto design engineer friend and he may be tad amused.

I don't believe he exists.

Imaginary friends are nothing to be ashamed of; they're just a symptom
of something.
--

Dave

"Roger" wrote in message
k...

To be fair

You should only use cheap super market oil and leave it in for 40,000 miles.
That is the ticket just for you.