I have fitted out all wiring points in a complete new build using dry lining
boxes, (245 of them in total) now coming to 2nd fix and a question arises -
how do I deal with the earths?



For all the socket outlets no problem as the sockets have earth connection
screws, as do grid switches etc.

However for standard switch plates these have no earth connection
screw .... Now there are a couple of things I could do ..



i) simply ignore the earths and cut them off, face plates are insulated as
are boxes so no need to earth.



ii) where there is only one earth wire treat as for i) . where more than
one earth wire, individually sleeves in grn/yellow, twist the ends together
and connect them all in a single insulated choccy block .. Still has no
effect on insulated face plate and box, but at least ensures all earths are
linked.



iii) It is possible to order clip in earth terminals to fit in dry lining
box, but wholesalers don't seem to stock them . but what good does it do
when faceplate & box are insulated.





Any comments form those that know.





Rick

On Sat, 29 May 2004 20:55:18 +0000 (UTC), "Rick Hughes"
wrote:

I have fitted out all wiring points in a complete new build using dry lining
boxes, (245 of them in total) now coming to 2nd fix and a question arises -
how do I deal with the earths?



For all the socket outlets no problem as the sockets have earth connection
screws, as do grid switches etc.

However for standard switch plates these have no earth connection
screw .... Now there are a couple of things I could do ..



i) simply ignore the earths and cut them off, face plates are insulated as
are boxes so no need to earth.



ii) where there is only one earth wire treat as for i) . where more than
one earth wire, individually sleeves in grn/yellow, twist the ends together
and connect them all in a single insulated choccy block .. Still has no
effect on insulated face plate and box, but at least ensures all earths are
linked.



iii) It is possible to order clip in earth terminals to fit in dry lining
box, but wholesalers don't seem to stock them . but what good does it do
when faceplate & box are insulated.





Any comments form those that know.



I did (ii), simply because at some point a metal wiring accessory (e.g
brass plateswitch) might be used. That will require an earth.

Cut it off as in (i) and you will be stuffed.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Rick Hughes wrote:
I have fitted out all wiring points in a complete new build using dry lining
boxes, (245 of them in total) now coming to 2nd fix and a question arises -
how do I deal with the earths?


The boxes are plastic and they act as an insulator so all the earth conductors
go directly to the face plate earth terminals.



For all the socket outlets no problem as the sockets have earth connection
screws, as do grid switches etc.

However for standard switch plates these have no earth connection
screw .... Now there are a couple of things I could do ..


You would sleeve the earth connecting centre as though you were going to connect
it then place it in a screw terminal strip and leave it tucked inside the box.
Don't cut it away as you may need it later on if you fit something else in place
of the old switch.




i) simply ignore the earths and cut them off, face plates are insulated as
are boxes so no need to earth.


No. Don't do that.


ii) where there is only one earth wire treat as for i) . where more than
one earth wire, individually sleeves in grn/yellow, twist the ends together
and connect them all in a single insulated choccy block .. Still has no
effect on insulated face plate and box, but at least ensures all earths are
linked.


No. Don't do this either.


iii) It is possible to order clip in earth terminals to fit in dry lining
box, but wholesalers don't seem to stock them . but what good does it do
when faceplate & box are insulated.


No. You can buy earth terminals which are normally meant for metal conduit
boxes, but you'll need to drill each dry lining box and fit the terminal through
and use a locking nut on the threaded tail. Lot of hassle for an already
insulated box.


Any comments form those that know.

Rick

Always make off all the earth conductors in your lighting distribution junctions
boxes. The earth conductors helps to reduce interference from sparking / arcing
of electrical switch gear, even if it is only connected at one and allowed to
float through leakage.

On Sat, 29 May 2004 20:55:18 +0000 (UTC), "Rick Hughes"
strung together this:

I have fitted out all wiring points in a complete new build using dry lining
boxes, (245 of them in total) now coming to 2nd fix and a question arises -
how do I deal with the earths?

Seems like you should know what you're doing if you're tackling that
size of a job really.

For all the socket outlets no problem as the sockets have earth connection
screws, as do grid switches etc.

However for standard switch plates these have no earth connection
screw .... Now there are a couple of things I could do ..

i) simply ignore the earths and cut them off, face plates are insulated as
are boxes so no need to earth.

You should never under any circumstances cut the earth off, ever.

ii) where there is only one earth wire treat as for i) . where more than
one earth wire, individually sleeves in grn/yellow, twist the ends together
and connect them all in a single insulated choccy block .. Still has no
effect on insulated face plate and box, but at least ensures all earths are
linked.

That's what you should do.

iii) It is possible to order clip in earth terminals to fit in dry lining
box, but wholesalers don't seem to stock them .

That's because not many, if any, people use them.

but what good does it do
when faceplate & box are insulated.

It provides a convenient place to park the earths as per the
regulations.
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd

On Sat, 29 May 2004 21:44:38 GMT,
(Lurch) strung together this:


What I mean't was;


ii) where there is only one earth wire treat as for i)

No, where there is only one treat it as you would for multiple earths
as below.

where more than
one earth wire, individually sleeves in grn/yellow, twist the ends together
and connect them all in a single insulated choccy block .. Still has no
effect on insulated face plate and box, but at least ensures all earths are
linked.

That's what you should do, for single earths as well.
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd

Cut it off as in (i) and you will be stuffed.


My thinking was the same on this ... just wanted to make sure there wasn't
an accepted practise.

Cheers

Rick

"BigWallop" wrote in message
...
Rick Hughes wrote:
I have fitted out all wiring points in a complete new build using dry
lining
boxes, (245 of them in total) now coming to 2nd fix and a question
arises -
how do I deal with the earths?


The boxes are plastic and they act as an insulator so all the earth
conductors
go directly to the face plate earth terminals.



You may have misunderstood (easy when I am describing things) this is what
I do for AC outlets .. but for lighting switchplates there are no faceplate
earth points ...

ii) where there is only one earth wire treat as for i) . where more
than
one earth wire, individually sleeves in grn/yellow, twist the ends
together
and connect them all in a single insulated choccy block .. Still has no
effect on insulated face plate and box, but at least ensures all earths
are
linked.


No. Don't do this either.

why ? not arguing, just keen to understand why, having them connected and
in a single connetcor mimicks what would happen if a earth terminal were
retro fitted ... and I thought this safer than leaving wires loose in back
of box ... can't possibly short this way ? why do you say not to do this
?


Rick

"Lurch" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 29 May 2004 20:55:18 +0000 (UTC), "Rick Hughes"
strung together this:

I have fitted out all wiring points in a complete new build using dry
lining
boxes, (245 of them in total) now coming to 2nd fix and a question
arises -
how do I deal with the earths?

Seems like you should know what you're doing if you're tackling that
size of a job really.


Done lots of wiring in the past, just never used dry-lining boxes, hence the
question.


Your 2nd post confirms what my logic thought ... sleeve & isolate them but
leave them there

Rick

On Sun, 30 May 2004 18:22:45 +0000 (UTC), "Rick Hughes"
wrote:


Cut it off as in (i) and you will be stuffed.


My thinking was the same on this ... just wanted to make sure there wasn't
an accepted practise.

Cheers

Rick


The other thing is that it is possible, although not common practice,
that you could have an application where the unswitched power goes to
the plate switch and then the switched power continues on to the light
fitting. This might happen for a light that is in some odd
position a long way from the lighting circuit, whereas the switch is
relatively close.

In that scenario, you need an earth at the light fitting so you would
then need continuity of the earth through the switch.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article ,
Rick Hughes wrote:
You may have misunderstood (easy when I am describing things) this is
what I do for AC outlets .. but for lighting switchplates there are no
faceplate earth points ...

There are on some metal types, and these might be fitted at a later date.

--
*I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

I read all the theories and spoutings of a lot of the postings regarding
relectrical work on these newsgroups and to be honest I cannot believe some
of the garbage quoted.

I am an Electrical Engineer but do not bother trying to help with many of
the electrical questions raised here because of the rubbish that can get
posted confusing the crap out of the original posters.(Why should anyone
listen to me when there are all these "experts" on here with their elegant
theories and ideas?).

There are one or two poster on here who regularly give what I would regard
as valid, correct answers to these electrical questions but the majority are
just well meaning, but dangerous, amateurs.

In my professional opinion if you have an electrical problem or question DO
NOT ask it on here, the ability to post a newsgroup reply does not in any
way endorse a person's ability or knowledge regarding electrical work or
theory.

If you have an electrical problem please for your sake and the sake of
anyone using the buildings or equipment you are asking about, please call in
an electrician.

It is very very easy to wire something to make it work - it is far harder to
make it work in a manner that is safe and does not pose a risk to life or
property.

No doubt all the barrack room sparks will now start telling me how many
houses and sockets they have wired with no problems, i do not have a problem
with that if you know what you are doing but if you have to ask on here in
the first palce you do not have enough knowledge to take on the job so
please call in someone who is qualified and knows what they are doing.

AJ

"aj" wrote in message
...
I read all the theories and spoutings of a lot of the postings regarding
relectrical work on these newsgroups and to be honest I cannot believe
some
of the garbage quoted.

I am an Electrical Engineer but do not bother trying to help with many of
the electrical questions raised here because of the rubbish that can get
posted confusing the crap out of the original posters.(Why should anyone
listen to me when there are all these "experts" on here with their elegant
theories and ideas?).

There are one or two poster on here who regularly give what I would regard
as valid, correct answers to these electrical questions but the majority
are
just well meaning, but dangerous, amateurs.

In my professional opinion if you have an electrical problem or question
DO
NOT ask it on here, the ability to post a newsgroup reply does not in any
way endorse a person's ability or knowledge regarding electrical work or
theory.

If you have an electrical problem please for your sake and the sake of
anyone using the buildings or equipment you are asking about, please call
in
an electrician.

It is very very easy to wire something to make it work - it is far harder
to
make it work in a manner that is safe and does not pose a risk to life or
property.

No doubt all the barrack room sparks will now start telling me how many
houses and sockets they have wired with no problems, i do not have a
problem
with that if you know what you are doing but if you have to ask on here in
the first palce you do not have enough knowledge to take on the job so
please call in someone who is qualified and knows what they are doing.

Hey, there's about 75 words in that sentence. Come on, you're really a
lawyer which perhaps explains why you don't like giving free advice.

Alan

On Mon, 31 May 2004 08:58:38 +0100, "aj" wrote:

I read all the theories and spoutings of a lot of the postings regarding
relectrical work on these newsgroups and to be honest I cannot believe some
of the garbage quoted.

I am an Electrical Engineer but do not bother trying to help with many of
the electrical questions raised here because of the rubbish that can get
posted confusing the crap out of the original posters.(Why should anyone
listen to me when there are all these "experts" on here with their elegant
theories and ideas?).

Because if you do have the expertise that you claim, you would be able
to justify any contribution that you make by reference to BS7671 and
well-known references to it.

You've demonstrated that you can write clearly as well, so the two
things taken together would imply your being able to post quite
eloquently and effectively on the subject.


There are one or two poster on here who regularly give what I would regard
as valid, correct answers to these electrical questions but the majority are
just well meaning, but dangerous, amateurs.

This is a sweeping statement. Where a question being asked is fairly
complex and not well covered by the Wiring Regulations or by one of
the commentary books, somebody with good knowledge of them typically
does step in and give a justified response and is seldom challenged on
it.

For relatively simple things, there is either a well trodden path or
the question is about looking for a technique to use when it is not
otherwise covered.

For many aspects of electrical installation work there is not a
prescribed "right way" or "wrong way" but there can be several quite
valid choices. There may be a common way that an electrician may have
learned from others along the way but that does not make alternatives
incorrect or incompliant with the Regulations. The acid test is
whether it complies with the standard, is safe and effective.



In my professional opinion if you have an electrical problem or question DO
NOT ask it on here, the ability to post a newsgroup reply does not in any
way endorse a person's ability or knowledge regarding electrical work or
theory.

Neither, unfortunately does calling in a professional (how ever that
might be defined), or indeed having an inspection done.

Let me give you a simple example.

Some years ago, I had occasion to look at the lighting wiring in my
loft - specifically at the ceiling fittings. As you know, I am
sure, these are places where several cables are typically connected.

I found the earth wires at the back of the fittings simply twisted
together and not in a terminal - no sleeving either. Most of these
fittings were underneath insulation, but one was on open display and
easily visible from the loft hatch.

The wiring was done by a quite well known local NICEIC contractor and
I have the inspection certificate produced by somebody from a
different firm..

I had an inspection done by another contractor and a discontinuity was
found in a ring circuit due to a screw in a socket not having been
tightened. In other respects, the wiring did pass the prescribed
instrument tests, however going round we found another 5 issues that
should have been picked up on an inspection.

If I do any significant electrical work, I do get an inspection done
and point out to the person doing it precisely what I have done and
where. Frankly, this is done only for the paperwork because I know
that the work that I do is safe and to a high standard - I have a
vested interest in doing so.

If I added up the cost of inspections over the years it would have
become cheaper to supplement my electrical engineering degree with
the appropriate technical college course and the test gear.


If you have an electrical problem please for your sake and the sake of
anyone using the buildings or equipment you are asking about, please call in
an electrician.

The original question was actually about what to do with earths at a
plastic switch plate and plastic dry lining box.


It is very very easy to wire something to make it work - it is far harder to
make it work in a manner that is safe and does not pose a risk to life or
property.

I think that that is overstating the issue. It is quite easy to do
both. Discussion topics here are generally about quite standard
domestic wiring installations, not wiring up the national grid.



No doubt all the barrack room sparks will now start telling me how many
houses and sockets they have wired with no problems, i do not have a problem
with that if you know what you are doing but if you have to ask on here in
the first palce you do not have enough knowledge to take on the job so
please call in someone who is qualified and knows what they are doing.

That really isn't the issue.

I don't see your motivation for the post.

- You criticise what is posted, yet don't want to participate when it
is possible that you might have a contribution to make.

- You fail to notice that if somebody makes a gross mistake in posting
an answer that it gets picked up by somebody who does know. Very
little gets posted in this group that is in some way dangerous that
doesn't then come under scrutiny from others and an obvious conclusion
drawn.

- It is not the case that because somebody asks a question that they
do not have the knowledge to do the work. What does a professional
do if confronted with a situation where the way to proceed is not
clear? They are going to ask a more experienced colleague or just
wing it perhaps without even noticing. The fact that somebody does
ask represents that they have thought about the issue.
If you look through threads on electrical work here, you will notice
that when somebody does post a question or where the subsequent
discussion implies that they are not really competent to do the work,
then somebody will gently or if need be forcefully point that out.

- As has been demonstrated and debated many times here and elsewhere,
there is just no significant incidence of problems as a result of DIY
fixed electrical work. The problems nearly all come from portable
appliances and overloading of sockets and the like.



-





AJ


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Rick Hughes" wrote in message
...
I have fitted out all wiring points in a complete new build using dry
lining
boxes, (245 of them in total) now coming to 2nd fix and a question
arises -
how do I deal with the earths?

Spooky - google for my post "Earth wire - where does it go in a plastic
socket box" about two weeks ago: generated loads of replies...

David

"aj" wrote in message
...
snip

I am an Electrical Engineer but do not bother trying to help with many of
the electrical questions raised here because of the rubbish that can get
posted confusing the crap out of the original posters.(Why should anyone
listen to me when there are all these "experts" on here with their elegant
theories and ideas?).

snip

Because you *do* know WTF you are talking about and can argue if required
(whilst quoting reg's if needs be) with those who *think* they know ?...

In article ,
aj wrote:
I am an Electrical Engineer but do not bother trying to help with many
of the electrical questions raised here because of the rubbish that can
get posted confusing the crap out of the original posters.(Why should
anyone listen to me when there are all these "experts" on here with
their elegant theories and ideas?).

Strange. If any wrong advice is given there are a number of genuine
experts who will correct it.

You come across as another IMM - the only one in the world who is right.

And those who start a post by *claiming* qualifications to enforce their
opinion perhaps should remember that a kid of 12 just as easily do this on
a newsgroup.

Now, since you've decided to make your post part of this thread, enlighten
us all by telling just what incorrect advice has been given here?

--
*I believe five out of four people have trouble with fractions. *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn