Costly Cylinder - alternatives ?
 

I've just been quoted £575 including vat for an Albion Superduty CF210
cylinder. What are the alternatives to provide similar fast recovery and
capacity (210 litres)?

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
I've just been quoted £575 including vat for an Albion Superduty CF210
cylinder. What are the alternatives to provide similar fast recovery and
capacity (210 litres)?

Try:
http://www.chelmerheating.co.uk (make cylindrical thermal stores)
http://www.mcdonald-engineers.com
http://www.elsonho****er.co.uk/ (make square stirage vessels)
http://www.heatweb.com (make heat banks and storage vessels to size)
http://www.albion-online.co.uk (make thermal stores and stioarge vessels)
http://www.range-cylinders.co.uk (make cylindrical heat banks and storage
vessels)
http://www.gledhill.net (make heat banks and storage vessels)
http://www.newarkcyl.freeserve.co.uk (make cylindrical thermal stores and
storage vessels. They are quite cheap)
http://www.telford-group.com (make cylindrical thermal stores and storage
vessels)


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Thanks, I've considered the vented thermal stores but on balance I think I'm
committed to a standard vented cylinder. I've got loads of long dead legs
so I'm planning a pumped dhw loop with a return tapping in the cylinder. I
don't think you can do this with hot water at mains pressure, can you?

So my question really is - is this an awful lot of money to pay for a
regular albeit high performance cylinder, and are there alternatives, ie,
cheaper cylinders? Or is this just the price of a cylinder nowadays?



"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
I've just been quoted £575 including vat for an Albion Superduty CF210
cylinder. What are the alternatives to provide similar fast recovery and
capacity (210 litres)?

Try:
http://www.chelmerheating.co.uk (make cylindrical thermal stores)
http://www.mcdonald-engineers.com
http://www.elsonho****er.co.uk/ (make square stirage vessels)
http://www.heatweb.com (make heat banks and storage vessels to size)
http://www.albion-online.co.uk (make thermal stores and stioarge vessels)
http://www.range-cylinders.co.uk (make cylindrical heat banks and storage
vessels)
http://www.gledhill.net (make heat banks and storage vessels)
http://www.newarkcyl.freeserve.co.uk (make cylindrical thermal stores and
storage vessels. They are quite cheap)
http://www.telford-group.com (make cylindrical thermal stores and storage
vessels)


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"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Thanks, I've considered the vented thermal stores but on balance I think
I'm
committed to a standard vented cylinder. I've got loads of long dead legs
so I'm planning a pumped dhw loop with a return tapping in the cylinder.
I
don't think you can do this with hot water at mains pressure, can you?

Yes you can have a secodnary circulation loop on a heat bank/thermal store.
Christian fitted a DHW only Pandora heat bank. He swears by it. Try
Newark who make reasonably priced thermal stores. Dircet from the makers.

So my question really is - is this an awful lot of money to pay for a
regular albeit high performance cylinder, and are there alternatives, ie,
cheaper cylinders? Or is this just the price of a cylinder nowadays?

There are cheaper makers around. Try the list I gave. Get quotes for a
quick recovery cylinder and a direct thermal store.



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[quote=Doctor Evil]

There are cheaper makers around. Try the list I gave. Get quotes for a
quick recovery cylinder and a direct thermal store.


Thanks for the info Dr Evil, I've sent to that Nottingham firm for Trade Prices.

In article , Jeff
writes
I've just been quoted £575 including vat for an Albion Superduty CF210
cylinder. What are the alternatives to provide similar fast recovery and
capacity (210 litres)?
I was there about 2 years ago and in the end got a Range Supercal 206litre
via discounted heating for 350quid. They don't list Range cylinders on their
site but I had used them for a big order and called them to see if they
could source one anyway. They said no problem, got me a quote &
delivered in about 4wks.

I talked with Range's technical department extensively before I placed the
order and they were v helpful. If you are looking for a custom, I would
suggest contacting them first, exchanging drawings, getting a custom
design ref, then getting the quote through discounted. A google will get you
Range's site & numbers.

http://www.discountedheating.co.uk/

BTW, discounted act as agents for Plumbcenter so if you can find it on
that site/catalogue you should be able to get it from them. I think I did
check the price for an Albion but it was through the roof.

ps: recovery is no problem, the cyl can soak up the full 25kw from my
boiler with no problems.

pps: I assume you will be super insulating the circulation loop?, then I
reckon you only need to circulate at a rate which will compensate for the (v
small) losses in your pipework. If they were suitable for the job I reckon a
windscreen washer pump would have enough capacity to circulate a well
designed loop.
phew
--
fred

"Jeff" wrote in
:

I've just been quoted £575 including vat for an Albion Superduty CF210
cylinder. What are the alternatives to provide similar fast recovery
and capacity (210 litres)?


Try BHL 0870 4586288.

They have a website, but I found they could get me everything I requested.

I'm not current on big old cylinders like you want, but they got an
impressive discount on all my gear, including a CF80

I went to plumbsomething at Chelmsford, was gobsmacked by the price, found
this lot, ordered, and the tank was delivered from plumbsomething at
Chelmsford on their van with their delivery note, but much cheaper.

I'm NOT saying they're the cheapest, but they're helpful, knowledgeable,
keep their promises (or get the hump with the local suppliers).

(Tell Lee mike sent you - he might send me a fiver)

mike

In article ,
Jeff wrote:
I've just been quoted £575 including vat for an Albion Superduty CF210
cylinder. What are the alternatives to provide similar fast recovery
and capacity (210 litres)?

Use two or more conventional fast recovery cylinders?

--
*Drugs may lead to nowhere, but at least it's the scenic route *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Well, I've had a quick look at the links you and others have provided, and a
search on the post by Christian and his Pandora installation. His is not a
dhw loop, though, from his description.

This has all re-kindled my interest in reverting to a thermal store system,
though, but I still haven't established how the dhw loop works when the hot
is really just heated mains water. I cannot find any reference to dhw loops
on the Albion site.

Can you just give me a few clues so that I know what to look up please ?





"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Thanks, I've considered the vented thermal stores but on balance I think
I'm
committed to a standard vented cylinder. I've got loads of long dead
legs
so I'm planning a pumped dhw loop with a return tapping in the cylinder.
I
don't think you can do this with hot water at mains pressure, can you?

Yes you can have a secodnary circulation loop on a heat bank/thermal
store.
Christian fitted a DHW only Pandora heat bank. He swears by it. Try
Newark who make reasonably priced thermal stores. Dircet from the makers.

So my question really is - is this an awful lot of money to pay for a
regular albeit high performance cylinder, and are there alternatives, ie,
cheaper cylinders? Or is this just the price of a cylinder nowadays?

There are cheaper makers around. Try the list I gave. Get quotes for a
quick recovery cylinder and a direct thermal store.



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"Jeff" wrote in message
...

Well, I've had a quick look at the links you and others have provided, and
a
search on the post by Christian and his Pandora installation. His is not
a
dhw loop, though, from his description.

This has all re-kindled my interest in reverting to a thermal store
system,
though, but I still haven't established how the dhw loop works when the
hot
is really just heated mains water. I cannot find any reference to dhw
loops
on the Albion site.

Can you just give me a few clues so that I know what to look up please ?

Unvented Cylinder & Vented Cylinder.

Fit a secondary circulation loop from the draw-off at the top back to the
cylinders tapping on the side of the cylinder, which will be near the top,
which is sometimes the shower tapping. Take all the taps off this loop.
Use a dedicated pump (grundfos make one), or a normal CH bronze pump near
the cylinder return. Install a pipe stat near the pump set to 40C. If
above 40C the pump is switched off. Also have a timer on the pump to
switch off at night. This is the same for an open vented or unvented
cylinder, if there is a tapping on the side of the cylinder

Unvented Cylinder

If no tapping on the side of the cylinder, then you have to use the cylinder
cold feed from the mains, after the pressure reducer, if one is fitted near
the cylinder. As above, but a check valve on the cold feed to the cylinder
(one should be there anyhow) after the check valve the secondary loop tees
in. On the secondary loop pipe before the tee into the cold feed fit
another check valve. The pump must be before the check valve on the loop.
Fit a shock arrestor on the loop near the cylidner (available
http://www.bes.ltd.uk)

Heat Bank/Thermal store

Fit a secondary circulation loop from the hot draw-off back to the mains
cold feed, after the pressure reducer, if one is fitted. As above, but fit
a check valve on the cold feed to the heat bank/thermal store, after the
check valve the secondary loop tees in. On the secondary loop pipe before
the tee into the cold feed fit another check valve. The pump must be before
the check valve on the loop. Fit a pipe stat on the loop near the pump and
set to 40C. Fit a shock arrestor on the loop near the cylinder (available
http://www.bes.ltd.uk), of one not already fitted on the heat bank.

The draw-off/secondary loop "must" be well lagged



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"Jeff" wrote in message
...

Well, I've had a quick look at the links you and others have provided, and
a
search on the post by Christian and his Pandora installation. His is not
a
dhw loop, though, from his description.

This has all re-kindled my interest in reverting to a thermal store
system,
though, but I still haven't established how the dhw loop works when the
hot
is really just heated mains water. I cannot find any reference to dhw
loops
on the Albion site.

Can you just give me a few clues so that I know what to look up please ?

Unvented Cylinder & Vented Cylinder.

Fit a secondary circulation loop from the draw-off at the top back to the
cylinders tapping on the side of the cylinder, which will be near the top,
which is sometimes the shower tapping. Take all the taps off this loop.
Use a dedicated pump (grundfos make one), or a normal CH bronze pump near
the cylinder return. Install a pipe stat near the pump set to 40C. If
above 40C the pump is switched off. Also have a timer on the pump to
switch off at night. This is the same for an open vented or unvented
cylinder, if there is a tapping on the side of the cylinder

Unvented Cylinder

If no tapping on the side of the cylinder, then you have to use the cylinder
cold feed from the mains, after the pressure reducer, if one is fitted near
the cylinder. As above, but a check valve on the cold feed to the cylinder
(one should be there anyhow) after the check valve the secondary loop tees
in. On the secondary loop pipe before the tee into the cold feed fit
another check valve. The pump must be before the check valve on the loop.
Fit a shock arrestor on the loop near the cylidner (available
http://www.bes.ltd.uk)

Heat Bank/Thermal store

Fit a secondary circulation loop from the hot draw-off back to the mains
cold feed, after the pressure reducer, if one is fitted. As above, but fit
a check valve on the cold feed to the heat bank/thermal store, after the
check valve the secondary loop tees in. On the secondary loop pipe before
the tee into the cold feed fit another check valve. The pump must be before
the check valve on the loop. Fit a pipe stat on the loop near the pump and
set to 40C. Fit a shock arrestor on the loop near the cylinder (available
http://www.bes.ltd.uk), of one not already fitted on the heat bank.

The draw-off/secondary loop "must" be well lagged











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Yes you can have a secodnary circulation loop on a heat bank/thermal
store.
Christian fitted a DHW only Pandora heat bank. He swears by it.

Note that I didn't have a secondary circulation loop. However, it was a
factory fitted option.

Christian.

This has all re-kindled my interest in reverting to a thermal store
system,
though, but I still haven't established how the dhw loop works when the
hot
is really just heated mains water. I cannot find any reference to dhw
loops
on the Albion site.

It makes no difference what sort of system you have when fitting a
circulation loop. When all the taps are off, the pressure at the cylinder
and the pressure at the tap are the same (ignoring height effects).
Therefore, a simple low power, low head pump can circulate the water back
whether it is gravity fed at 0.2 bar or mains fed at 3 bar. Just a tiny 0.1
bar pressure differential would be enough to recirculate in each case.

The main problem I could see with a heat bank is that running the exchanger
pump would cause destratification. However, I wouldn't be surprised if they
had designed the system to deal with this issue. It may even be that
parasitic effects are enough to keep the recirculation loop hot, without
needing to run the plate exchanger pump, but I don't know how it is
designed.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
Yes you can have a secodnary circulation loop on a heat bank/thermal
store.
Christian fitted a DHW only Pandora heat bank. He swears by it.

Note that I didn't have a secondary circulation loop. However, it was a
factory fitted option.

Did they tee in the return of the loop before or after the flow switch?


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In article ,
Jeff wrote:
OK, the reference to exchanger pump had me puzzled - the Albion thermal
stores have no pump. Is there an advantage in the Pandora system of pumping
the water across the plate exchanger when flow is detected? Don't most
thermal stores do the heat exchanging within the main body of water? The
Pandora system seems to be adding complexity, I guess there must be a reason
for it.

Theres an Albion with an Internet coil rather than an external exchanger
and pump, which I have looked at in my quest for information about
thermal stores, etc. From the Albion web page it would seem that the
exit temp from thte coil would be 50C, but from other sources, the exit
from a plate heat exchanger would be closer to 70C, but I guess it
depends on other factors - probably mostly flow rate.

The Internal coil has the advantage of not disturbing the water in the
tank as much as the external plate heat exchanger & pump, but at the
end of the day, who knows whats best?

The Albion would certinaly simplify plumbing and save on one pump, thats
for sure, but at the expense of how much efficiency, I wonder?

Gordon

In article ,
Gordon Henderson wrote:
In article ,
Jeff wrote:
OK, the reference to exchanger pump had me puzzled - the Albion thermal
stores have no pump. Is there an advantage in the Pandora system of pumping
the water across the plate exchanger when flow is detected? Don't most
thermal stores do the heat exchanging within the main body of water? The
Pandora system seems to be adding complexity, I guess there must be a reason
for it.

Theres an Albion with an Internet coil rather than an external exchanger

Of-course, I mean internal coil ...

and pump, which I have looked at in my quest for information about
thermal stores, etc. From the Albion web page it would seem that the
exit temp from thte coil would be 50C, but from other sources, the exit
from a plate heat exchanger would be closer to 70C, but I guess it
depends on other factors - probably mostly flow rate.

The Internal coil has the advantage of not disturbing the water in the
tank as much as the external plate heat exchanger & pump, but at the
end of the day, who knows whats best?

The Albion would certinaly simplify plumbing and save on one pump, thats
for sure, but at the expense of how much efficiency, I wonder?

Gordon

"Jeff" wrote in message
...

OK, the reference to exchanger pump
had me puzzled - the Albion thermal
stores have no pump. Is there an advantage in
the Pandora system of pumping
the water across the plate exchanger when
flow is detected?

Yes. Plate heat exchangers is far more efficient than an immersed coil, so
will give higher flowrates. Plate heat exchangers can be taken off and
de-scaled. Also have a full bore isolating valves either side, to avoid a
drain down and having to pay £30 for inhibitor. The makers may do this as
an extra.

Don't most
thermal stores do the heat exchanging
within the main body of water?

Yep.

The Pandora system seems to be adding
complexity, I guess there must be a reason
for it.

Higher flowrates. The Pandora also does not require a F&E tank or overflow.
It is filled with hose pipe. Very DIYable.

To return to the loop question, I presume
I should tee in the return on the
cold side of the mixing valve - so that
the circuit does not trip the flow
switch when hot water is simply circulating?

Remember, if you have a pipe stat on the loop it will cut out the secondary
loop pump when over 40-45C, so it really does matter that much.

Christian, in Oct 2003 you said: " Flow
rates are higher than my old gravity
system into the bath (but not really a
patch on my parent's Megaflo or the
pumped gravity system in my previous house "

Depends on the mains presssure, size of main, etc. A heat bank can
outpeform an unvented cylinder by adding another plate in parrallel. This
can be easily retrofitted. You can't do that with a coiled thermal store.

I'm still getting the impression that
to get the fastest bath fill up
possible, I use a standard vented
cylinder and big bore pipes. For
showering, I can get at least 2m
between the base of the cold feed tank and
the shower rose. What's your opinion ?

A tank/cylinder setup will give a fast bath fill with large bore pipes, but
a heat bank, providing the mains can cope will give all you wnat.



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"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

"Jeff" wrote in message
...

Remember, if you have a pipe stat on the loop it will cut out the
secondary
loop pump when over 40-45C, so it really does matter that much.

Shouild be doen't not does.


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This is all helpful thanks, got enough to research some more and decide I
think


"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

"Jeff" wrote in message
...

Remember, if you have a pipe stat on the loop it will cut out the
secondary
loop pump when over 40-45C, so it really does matter that much.

Shouild be doen't not does.


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I'm still getting the impression that to get the fastest bath fill up
possible, I use a standard vented cylinder and big bore pipes. For
showering, I can get at least 2m between the base of the cold feed tank
and
the shower rose. What's your opinion ?

That would require a pump to get the sort of flow rates I'm talking about.
Also, most people like showers with pressure that you would need at least
10m head for (although some prefer low pressure as well). I like a rapid
minute bath fill. The system in my old house had mains cold and pumped hot
and could fill in under this period. My current system probably takes about
3 minutes, although it is usable after 2.

So when I say it isn't as good as the Megaflo, I'm comparing really quite
large flow rates that would satisfy almost anyone. (i.e. 40lpm vs 60lpm).

Christian.