Problem with Central Heating since changing programmer
 

I have a problem with my heating system since I changed the programmer.
The system is a 28-year old open vented gravity HW system, with a
pumped CH system as well.

My Randall 3060 packed up over Christmas - Bug number 1 started moving
instead of switching the heating on, until it jammed up against bug
number 2.

Anyway, I decided to replace it with a more modern 5/2 digital
programmer - a trip to B&Q Warehouse revealed that a Sunvic Select
207XL was a suitable replacement unit for the Randall 3060.

Sunvic fitting guide listed the wired terminals from the Randall's MK3
plate that should be disconnected and reconnected to the Sunivc
wallplate - Basically, I ended up with three neutral wires to terminal
N, a live wire to terminal L, and a HW and CH on wire to terminals 3 &
4. Dip switches on the programmer were set to Gravity, 5/2 day
programming and three time periods.

This left me with some wires left over - a red/black combo that were
wired into the same terminal on the Randall, and three earth wires. For
each set, I have taped them together with insulating tape and bent them
out of the way for now.

However, I can only get the hot water to come on. This warms up two of
the three upstairs radiators as well (I think I have an antigraviy
valve missing in my system!), but downstairs is very frosty.

Pump is not spinning up, from what I can see. Clearly it is not wired
right, but having followed the Sunvic instructions I am unsure what to
do next.

Does anyone else have experience with this set up?

On 30 Dec 2004 17:24:29 -0800, strung together this:

This left me with some wires left over - a red/black combo that were
wired into the same terminal on the Randall, and three earth wires. For
each set, I have taped them together with insulating tape and bent them
out of the way for now.

The earth wires won't have anything to do with this. Where did you
take the red and black wires from and where do they go? I think this
could be the key to the whole thing.

Problem is, there's hundreds of ways it could have been wired, and it
could take some amount of testing and disconnecting. If you've got the
relatively nsimple programmer swap wrong with instructions in front of
you it could get worse from here in.
--

SJW
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Thanks SJW - I know it is relatively simple - all I can say is that I
followed Sunvic's instructions to the letter. I would suggest that they
have assumed a more modern system than the one I have?

I am aware that the earth wires are immaterial - I was just trying to
be thorough in identifying exactly what has been done.

Examination of the Randall 3060 wiring diagram online reveals wires at
terminal 3 on the Randall plate - a live to the pump, and a neutral to
the wall thermostat. Presumably this is where my problem is - these
wires need connecting in somewhere. My problem is that the Sunvic
instructions don't reference the terminal 3 wires at all.

My inclination is to take these, separate them and connect them
appropriately to the Live and Neutral terminals on the Sunvic - but I
would prefer to take some advice first, in case I do something
dangerous or irreparable.

My problem is that the Sunvic instructions don't reference
the terminal 3 wires at all.

It is likely the unidentified wire goes to "CH Off" or "HW Off". The earths
should be properly terminated into a terminal of some sort, such as a piece
of chocolate block. It is unsafe to just twist and tape.

Christian.

Christian,

Gotcha on the earths - I was going to do that as soon as I got the
heating back on!

Is it safe to experiment with this? I have two wires that were from the
Randall Terminal 3, not one - Will I damage anything if I start
sticking them into the off terminals?

I have tried calling Sunvic technical help this morning, but I am
getting no answer - but I really don't want to go the whole weekend
without any heating!

Ok, latest update...

Had another think about Christian's advice with the off terminals, and
rejected it - the original Randall did not support motorised off
valves, so I can't have those in my system (especially as it is so
old!)

I have connected one of the Randall Terminal 3 wires to the CH ON
output of the Sunvic, and the heating has been restored. Pump is firing
up now, and therefore radiators are warming.

However, my thermostat in the living room is still inoperative. I
presume that I need to close a circuit with the remaining wire
somewhere, but I am unsure what to do. Connect it to the neutral
terminal on the Sunvic? I am worried about blowing something up if I do
that.

Had another think about Christian's advice with the off terminals, and
rejected it - the original Randall did not support motorised off
valves, so I can't have those in my system (especially as it is so
old!)

You may have misunderstood. The purpose of the Off terminals is not
necessarily to drive motorised off valves. Many wiring schemes use the off
terminals for other purposes. However, I don't think it is the problem in
your case anyway.

http://www.danfoss-randall.co.uk/default.asp?strSearchResult=tem1019.asp?intPage=99 0|intLang=2|strLang=en|intLevel=2|intLevel2ID=990

Shows:

1 - Neutral
2 - CH On
3 - NC
4 - HW On
5 - NC
6 - L (in)
7 - N (in)
8 - earth

Now see if you can remember where the original wires went and it should be
obvious where to place them on the new programmer. If the room thermostat
still doesn't work, are you sure it was working before?

Christian.

Christian,

Thermostat was most definitely working before.

I have mapped the following to the Sunvic:

1&7 to Sunvic N
6 to Sunvic L
2 to Sunvic CH On
4 to Sunvic HW On

This left the earths (now choc blocked together, Sunvic has no earth
terminal) and the two extra wires which I have now determined are BOTH
live. These were wired in to 3 on the Randall. One of these is now into
the Sunvic CH On, and is giving me heating back, and I don't know what
to do with the other. Connecting it to Sunvic N blows the fuse,
connecting it to Sunvic L runs the heating even when the programmer is
set off.

Thanks,

David.

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
wrote:

Ok, latest update...

Had another think about Christian's advice with the off terminals, and
rejected it - the original Randall did not support motorised off
valves, so I can't have those in my system (especially as it is so
old!)

I have connected one of the Randall Terminal 3 wires to the CH ON
output of the Sunvic, and the heating has been restored. Pump is
firing up now, and therefore radiators are warming.

However, my thermostat in the living room is still inoperative. I
presume that I need to close a circuit with the remaining wire
somewhere, but I am unsure what to do. Connect it to the neutral
terminal on the Sunvic? I am worried about blowing something up if I
do that.

Well, you need to make sure that the stat is wired in *series* with the
pump - so that the pump runs when the stat's contacts are closed and stops
when they open.

In other words, there should be a wire going from CH ON in the programmer to
the input side of the room stat. [You may need a neutral too, depending on
the type of stat]. Then the output side of the stat should feed the pump.
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
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Thanks for that. I assumed as much - the trouble is, I have no idea how
to achieve that with what I have! Having the two spare live wires
connected together and not on the programmer left me with no heating at
all.

As the heating is running for now, I'll porbably just leave well alone
until Sunvic's tech departemnt come back from holiday on the 5th Jan,
and then take it up with them.

Thanks,

David.

wrote in message
oups.com...
Christian,

Thermostat was most definitely working before.

I have mapped the following to the Sunvic:

1&7 to Sunvic N
6 to Sunvic L
2 to Sunvic CH On
4 to Sunvic HW On

This left the earths (now choc blocked together, Sunvic has no earth
terminal) and the two extra wires which I have now determined are BOTH
live. These were wired in to 3 on the Randall. One of these is now into
the Sunvic CH On, and is giving me heating back, and I don't know what
to do with the other. Connecting it to Sunvic N blows the fuse,
connecting it to Sunvic L runs the heating even when the programmer is
set off.


I'm getting the suspicion that you have lost your way in a "Y-plan" system.
Try going to Honeywells site and looking up Y-plan. You then need to
determine where each cable from the Sunvic position actually go to before
you can proceed to rectify this cock-up

These were wired in to 3 on the Randall.

It sounds like they should be wired together, but not connected to the
programmer. i.e. treat like the earths. Most likely it is the return from
the thermostat and the output to the pump/boiler.

Christian.

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
John wrote:


I'm getting the suspicion that you have lost your way in a "Y-plan"
system. Try going to Honeywells site and looking up Y-plan. You then
need to determine where each cable from the Sunvic position actually
go to before you can proceed to rectify this cock-up


Not so! According to the initial post, it's a gravity HW and pumped CH
system - with no zone or 3-port valves in sight!
--
Cheers,
Set Square
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Christian,

That was how I did them originally - unfortunately, in that
configuration the central heating pump will not spin up, and I get hot
water only.

David.

On 31 Dec 2004 08:53:52 -0800, strung together this:

Thanks for that. I assumed as much - the trouble is, I have no idea how
to achieve that with what I have! Having the two spare live wires
connected together and not on the programmer left me with no heating at
all.

As the heating is running for now, I'll porbably just leave well alone
until Sunvic's tech departemnt come back from holiday on the 5th Jan,
and then take it up with them.

You'd be better up getting a local electrician out, Sunvic won't be
particularly interested in the fact that there equipment works but
yours doesn't. It's a fault in your wiring, not the programmer.

To get it all working you need to find out where all the wires go and
what they do, rather than randomly guessing at it.
--

SJW
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Hold up there, SJW, the reason I'll ring Sunvic is that they provide
conversion instructions with their equipment from a Randall 3060, and
they did not work.

As I now have a situation where I have identified where the extra wires
go (the thermostat), where they were originally connected, and what
polarity they are, perhaps they can fill me in.

As for both of your posts, unlike others who have commented you have
offered no constructive help at all, just made arrogant comments using
belittling words. Why bother responding in a DIY help group if all you
can do is that?

Have you never tried to solve a DIY problem yourself by seeking advice,
or do you always give up and go and call someone in? Or perhaps you
work in a trade and like looking down on everyone else's work? Either
way, you have not done a jot in helping me learn the root of this
problem - thanks for nothing!

On 2 Jan 2005 01:58:38 -0800, strung together this:

Hold up there, SJW, the reason I'll ring Sunvic is that they provide
conversion instructions with their equipment from a Randall 3060, and
they did not work.

Erm, they do work, it's just you don't know where the wires go. I've
never found a set of instructions that cover every possibility of
doing something, they just provide the most common way.

As I now have a situation where I have identified where the extra wires
go (the thermostat), where they were originally connected, and what
polarity they are, perhaps they can fill me in.

If the red and black are for the thermostsat then the most probable
way that they are meant to be connected is the red to CH on and b lack
to the pump. You need to find out what *all* the wires do in the
programmer, then you can sort it out, everyones's just guessing at the
moment.

As for both of your posts, unlike others who have commented you have
offered no constructive help at all, just made arrogant comments using
belittling words. Why bother responding in a DIY help group if all you
can do is that?

I said find out what all the wires do and where they go, do that and
we'll tell you where they go. (Don't just guess at them, they need
testing).

Have you never tried to solve a DIY problem yourself by seeking advice,
or do you always give up and go and call someone in? Or perhaps you
work in a trade and like looking down on everyone else's work? Either
way, you have not done a jot in helping me learn the root of this
problem - thanks for nothing!

I did try helping, you obviously took offence, I'm not really bothered
if your heating works or not, mine works perfectly so you can have a
strop if you want.
--

SJW
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

Lurch wrote:

Erm, they do work, it's just you don't know where the wires go. I've
never found a set of instructions that cover every possibility of
doing something, they just provide the most common way.

Well, if the instructions aren't that comprehensive, I'd be justified
in ringing Sunvic, then, wouldn't I? Contrary to your suggestion...

If the red and black are for the thermostsat then the most probable
way that they are meant to be connected is the red to CH on and b
lack
to the pump. You need to find out what *all* the wires do in the
programmer, then you can sort it out, everyones's just guessing at
the
moment.

Yes, thanks for that rehash of the previous suggestions from other
posters.

I said find out what all the wires do and where they go, do that and
we'll tell you where they go. (Don't just guess at them, they need
testing).

Actually, you never said that. You asked where they went, without
suggesting how I found that out. You then suggested I'd screwed up a
"simple programmer swap with the instructions in front of me". You also
suggested I call in an electrician in a later post.

I did try helping, you obviously took offence, I'm not really
bothered
if your heating works or not, mine works perfectly so you can have a
strop if you want.

And there's that supercilious attitude again. In this context,
supercilious means "acting like a clever ass and looking down on those
around him" - just to save you looking it up in the dictionary.

Smart comments are really not very nice. Try and be helpful in future,
or give your keyboard a rest and don't post.

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
John wrote:


I'm getting the suspicion that you have lost your way in a "Y-plan"
system. Try going to Honeywells site and looking up Y-plan. You then
need to determine where each cable from the Sunvic position actually
go to before you can proceed to rectify this cock-up


Not so! According to the initial post, it's a gravity HW and pumped CH
system - with no zone or 3-port valves in sight!

Are we absolutely "sure" the OP has got that bit right? Of course it could
be a C plan and the HW zone valve is not mentioned g

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
John wrote:

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
John wrote:


I'm getting the suspicion that you have lost your way in a "Y-plan"
system. Try going to Honeywells site and looking up Y-plan. You then
need to determine where each cable from the Sunvic position actually
go to before you can proceed to rectify this cock-up


Not so! According to the initial post, it's a gravity HW and pumped
CH system - with no zone or 3-port valves in sight!

Are we absolutely "sure" the OP has got that bit right? Of course it
could be a C plan and the HW zone valve is not mentioned g

Well, you can never be *totally* sure of anything in this life g, but he
did say:

"I have a problem with my heating system since I changed the programmer.
The system is a 28-year old open vented gravity HW system, with a
pumped CH system as well."

Then further down, he said he had hot water but no heating and that the pump
was not running.

So I'm *pretty* certain that is isn't a Y-Plan system.

As you say, it *could* be a C-Plan, which might account for some of the
extra unidentified wires. However, with a C-Plan, if the volt-free
change-over switch on the zone valve isn't wired correctly, you're likely to
get the pump but not the boiler once the HW demand is satisfied - which
doesn't quite fit the stated 'facts'.

If the OP's still on board, perhaps he can tell us whether there *are* any
motorised valves in the system.
--
Cheers,
Set Square
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I ALSO HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM BUT HAVE 3 WIRES LEFT AT No3 PERMANENT LIVE,STAT LIVE,CYL LIVE IF YOU RESOLVE PLEASE LET ME KNOW CHEERS IMPY

I THINK YOU WILL FIND IF YOU PUT THE OTHER SPARE WAY INTO HW ON ALL YOUR PROBLEMS WILL BE SOLVED PLEASE REPLY IF IT DOESNT AND WE WILL GET IT RIGHT CHEERS IMPY BECAUSE IF U HAVE CONNECTED THE SPARE DIRECTLY TO 230V YOU WILL GET CONSTANT HEATING AS IT ISNT SWITCHABLE AGAIN PLEASE LET ME KNOW THE OUTCOME AS I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW