From: Jim )
Subject: Kitchen dresser top: MDF vs wood? Any building tips?

As an aging and 2nd-rate but prolific diy-er I would appreciate some
advice on
this.

I have a long kitchen base unit from Ikea (don't even ask) and I
would like to
slap a dresser-style top on it. Basically, it will consist of two
sides approx
20x100 cms and 2 shelves and a top piece each 20x170 cms. When I've
sorted out
the basic structure I'll fiddle about with some mouldings for the top
and maybe
a jigsawed decorative strip. The back will be a bead& butt pattern
MDF or
thinnish T&G wood boards - same effect.

I'm not a carpenter by any stretch so the scheme I have in mind for
joining the
sections would, I think, make a skilled man blench - I'm expecting
the rear MDF
(or wood) panel to hold the whole thing in place. Basically I intend
to screw
through the side panel directly into the edge of the MDF shelves
(18mm) and
glue. I'll use those thin black screws I was once told were good for
MDF and
would reduce the chance of splitting (true?).

My calculations suggest a finished weight of 50 lbs or so which, from
the point
of view of manhandling worries me a bit not to mention the potential
for sagging
in the middle of the shelf although I think I would probably fix a
batten on to
the back and for the full length of the shelf to militate against
that. Or
screw through the back into the long edge of the shelves if the
screws don't
misbehave.

Alternatively I had thought of using 5 strips of 18x40mm timber (or 4
of
something wider) and jointing these together to form all the planks.
I don't
have much experience of jointing so I would appreciate any advice on
this. I
watched someone using a biscuiter once and was most impressed but I
guess this
would be an expensive item. I've got G-clamps so perhaps just
dowels and glue?

I could also use thinner MDF for the shelves with a wider batten
glued to the
front to create a 'thicker' look.

Would appreciate any thoughts. Has anybody used this MDF T&G stuff
BTW?


First off, this is a decorative item, so any mistake you make will be
on display for ever more.

A rear panel will make the carcass rigid if the rear panel itself is
rigid. Use flim and it will be flimsy. I'd use half inch for the back:
I know thin junk is popular, but half inch will give you a proper
rigid carcass, 4mm is just crap.

If you must use TnG, I'd glue all the tng joints, otherwise it will
have no rigidity. Pine looks good when varnished or waxed, mdf looks
like crap.

Google for the sagulator to see how much your shelves will sag, you've
not mentioned shelf dimensions yet. For a display piece, rather than
spare room storage, I'd always go on the heavey and well supported
side.

Screwing into the edges of thin sheet is a recipe for failure. The
screws are concentrated point loads, with only a third of the shelf
thickness above them. Plus screwing in like this will often apply
enough force to split the wood with no load at all.

Much better is to have a strip of wood under 3 sides of the shelf, and
very much better is to have it under all 4 sides. Round the edges off
and heavy looks good. If you got no rounding off kit, Wickes sell
1.5x2.5 with nicely rounded corners. You could use that as the front
edge, cutting some away to lay the shelf in. Dont buy the bent wood.

: ______ ______________________
: / | this is the shelf here
: | |______ _______________
: | 1.5x2.5 |
: \____________/
:
: front back

You can glue strips together to make shelves if theyre dead flat and
dead straight, and dont have paint etc on the glued edges, its a good
way to greatly reduce the odds of warping, as long as you alternate
the grain direction. Or you can buy pine board ready made.

Measure twice, cut once.


NT

On 12 Dec 2004 00:51:58 -0800, (N. Thornton) wrote:

From: Jim )
Subject: Kitchen dresser top: MDF vs wood? Any building tips?

As an aging and 2nd-rate but prolific diy-er I would appreciate some
advice on
this.

I have a long kitchen base unit from Ikea (don't even ask) and I
would like to
slap a dresser-style top on it. Basically, it will consist of two
sides approx
20x100 cms and 2 shelves and a top piece each 20x170 cms. When I've
sorted out
the basic structure I'll fiddle about with some mouldings for the top
and maybe
a jigsawed decorative strip. The back will be a bead& butt pattern
MDF or
thinnish T&G wood boards - same effect.

I'm not a carpenter by any stretch so the scheme I have in mind for
joining the
sections would, I think, make a skilled man blench - I'm expecting
the rear MDF
(or wood) panel to hold the whole thing in place. Basically I intend
to screw
through the side panel directly into the edge of the MDF shelves
(18mm) and
glue. I'll use those thin black screws I was once told were good for
MDF and
would reduce the chance of splitting (true?).

My calculations suggest a finished weight of 50 lbs or so which, from
the point
of view of manhandling worries me a bit not to mention the potential
for sagging
in the middle of the shelf although I think I would probably fix a
batten on to
the back and for the full length of the shelf to militate against
that. Or
screw through the back into the long edge of the shelves if the
screws don't
misbehave.

Alternatively I had thought of using 5 strips of 18x40mm timber (or 4
of
something wider) and jointing these together to form all the planks.
I don't
have much experience of jointing so I would appreciate any advice on
this. I
watched someone using a biscuiter once and was most impressed but I
guess this
would be an expensive item. I've got G-clamps so perhaps just
dowels and glue?

I could also use thinner MDF for the shelves with a wider batten
glued to the
front to create a 'thicker' look.

Would appreciate any thoughts. Has anybody used this MDF T&G stuff
BTW?


First off, this is a decorative item, so any mistake you make will be
on display for ever more.

I've never yet made a mistake I couldn't hide

A rear panel will make the carcass rigid if the rear panel itself is
rigid. Use flim and it will be flimsy. I'd use half inch for the back:
I know thin junk is popular, but half inch will give you a proper
rigid carcass, 4mm is just crap.

If you must use TnG, I'd glue all the tng joints, otherwise it will
have no rigidity. Pine looks good when varnished or waxed, mdf looks
like crap.

T&G is the traditional backing for open kitchen dressers - whether this is
separate boards or sheet MDF. I agree the 'idea' of MDF is crap but some of the
best looking painted furniture around now uses it (e.g. Rossiters in Bath sell a
very nice dresser at £1600 - this is the unit I'm attempting to copy). If I go
for the MDF this will be 15mm although the company producing it will customise
to requirements on any standard thickness sheet.

Google for the sagulator to see how much your shelves will sag, you've
not mentioned shelf dimensions yet.

yes, I did, see above - " 2 shelves and a top piece each 20x170 cms"

For a display piece, rather than
spare room storage, I'd always go on the heavey and well supported
side.

Screwing into the edges of thin sheet is a recipe for failure. The
screws are concentrated point loads, with only a third of the shelf
thickness above them. Plus screwing in like this will often apply
enough force to split the wood with no load at all.

Much better is to have a strip of wood under 3 sides of the shelf, and
very much better is to have it under all 4 sides.

yes, I mentioned the batten running the " full length of the shelf " and also a
'thicker' strip for the front.

Round the edges off
and heavy looks good. If you got no rounding off kit, Wickes sell
1.5x2.5 with nicely rounded corners. You could use that as the front
edge, cutting some away to lay the shelf in. Dont buy the bent wood.



: ______ ______________________
: / | this is the shelf here
: | |______ _______________
: | 1.5x2.5 |
: \____________/
:
: front back

You can glue strips together to make shelves if theyre dead flat and
dead straight, and dont have paint etc on the glued edges, its a good
way to greatly reduce the odds of warping, as long as you alternate
the grain direction. Or you can buy pine board ready made.

Measure twice, cut once.

yes, advice I've always heeded when it was offered 40 years ago.


thanks for taking the trouble to post.


NT

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 09:56:34 +0100, Jim wrote:

T&G is the traditional backing for open kitchen dressers -

Rebated lapping is more common. You only need 2/3rd (or less)
thickness, compared to T&G.

T&G has been used, but only at the farmhouse "it just grows on trees,
so make it chunky" end of things.