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Terry Pinnell
 
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Default Water in loft - stained ceiling

While shaving this morning I was dismayed to find a foot size brownish
stain on the newly-painted bathroom ceiling. My worry increased when I
located it to a damp patch on the water tank 'platform' above the
ceiling plasterboard, just on the edge. How on earth, I wondered,
could a thick plastic tank spring a leak? But then I discovered that
the cause is probably much less serious, although still surprising.

Covering the top and most of the sides of the tank is a black plastic
cladding thingie, with thick fibre glass insulation inside it. (This
in turn sits on top of a plastic lid, that fits loosely over the lip
of the square tank.) On the underneath of the cladding's top surface
there was quite a lot of what appeared to be condensation. And I could
just see a trace of water on the outside of the tank itself, below the
rim, at the point which would be above the stain.

I know nothing about these things, so would appreciate a few words
from anyone who does please. Is that really likely to be the cause?
IOW, condensation building up sufficiently to leak out?

Or is it more likely to be this other possibility. At that same point,
the overflow pipe leaves the tank, and it was close to that where I
saw the water on the tank outer surface. The tank water level was an
inch or so below the outlet, but (some 10-20 mins time after using any
taps or loos) there was still a drip-drip coming in through the valve.


--
Terry, West Sussex, UK

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nightjar
 
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"Terry Pinnell" wrote in message
...
While shaving this morning I was dismayed to find a foot size brownish
stain on the newly-painted bathroom ceiling. My worry increased when I
located it to a damp patch on the water tank 'platform' above the
ceiling plasterboard, just on the edge. How on earth, I wondered,
could a thick plastic tank spring a leak? But then I discovered that
the cause is probably much less serious, although still surprising.

Covering the top and most of the sides of the tank is a black plastic
cladding thingie, with thick fibre glass insulation inside it. (This
in turn sits on top of a plastic lid, that fits loosely over the lip
of the square tank.) On the underneath of the cladding's top surface
there was quite a lot of what appeared to be condensation. And I could
just see a trace of water on the outside of the tank itself, below the
rim, at the point which would be above the stain.

I know nothing about these things, so would appreciate a few words
from anyone who does please. Is that really likely to be the cause?
IOW, condensation building up sufficiently to leak out?

Or is it more likely to be this other possibility. At that same point,
the overflow pipe leaves the tank, and it was close to that where I
saw the water on the tank outer surface. The tank water level was an
inch or so below the outlet, but (some 10-20 mins time after using any
taps or loos) there was still a drip-drip coming in through the valve.


Condensation can produce surprising amounts of water. The simplest answer is
probably to fit a drip tray under the tank, with a drain running outside the
building. The long term answer may be to increase the amount of insulation
in your loft, so that there is less warm air up there for the water to
condense out of.

Colin Bignell


  #3   Report Post  
Terry Pinnell
 
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"nightjar" wrote:


Condensation can produce surprising amounts of water. The simplest answer is
probably to fit a drip tray under the tank, with a drain running outside the
building. The long term answer may be to increase the amount of insulation
in your loft, so that there is less warm air up there for the water to
condense out of.

Colin Bignell


Thanks for the fast reply, Colin. What surprises me though is that
I've been in this house for 11 years, and have never had this problem
before. And, although it has been pretty chilly this last couple of
days, it's certainly not been a record cold spell.


Fitting a tray would be very difficult, as you see here


| |
| -Overflow exit
|-----------|
| | Tank
| Water |
|___________|XX Damp patch on platform here
-----------------
Platform -----------------
|| ||
|| ||Joists
----------------------------
Ceiling XX Damp patch in ceiling here


I'm beginning to favour the other possibility I mentioned...


--
Terry, West Sussex, UK


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pjdesign
 
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"Terry Pinnell" wrote in message
...
While shaving this morning I was dismayed to find a foot size brownish
stain on the newly-painted bathroom ceiling. My worry increased when I
located it to a damp patch on the water tank 'platform' above the
ceiling plasterboard, just on the edge. How on earth, I wondered,
could a thick plastic tank spring a leak? But then I discovered that
the cause is probably much less serious, although still surprising.

Covering the top and most of the sides of the tank is a black plastic
cladding thingie, with thick fibre glass insulation inside it. (This
in turn sits on top of a plastic lid, that fits loosely over the lip
of the square tank.) On the underneath of the cladding's top surface
there was quite a lot of what appeared to be condensation. And I could
just see a trace of water on the outside of the tank itself, below the
rim, at the point which would be above the stain.

I know nothing about these things, so would appreciate a few words
from anyone who does please. Is that really likely to be the cause?
IOW, condensation building up sufficiently to leak out?

Or is it more likely to be this other possibility. At that same point,
the overflow pipe leaves the tank, and it was close to that where I
saw the water on the tank outer surface. The tank water level was an
inch or so below the outlet, but (some 10-20 mins time after using any
taps or loos) there was still a drip-drip coming in through the valve.


--
Terry, West Sussex, UK

Hi Terry.
I had a similar problem.
The valve was letting in a little water and at night the level went up and
leaked through the overflow fitting.
Most probably never checked or tested.
Baz


  #5   Report Post  
logized
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Terry Pinnell" wrote in message
...
While shaving this morning I was dismayed to find a foot size brownish
stain on the newly-painted bathroom ceiling. My worry increased when I
located it to a damp patch on the water tank 'platform' above the
ceiling plasterboard, just on the edge. How on earth, I wondered,
could a thick plastic tank spring a leak? But then I discovered that
the cause is probably much less serious, although still surprising.

Covering the top and most of the sides of the tank is a black plastic
cladding thingie, with thick fibre glass insulation inside it. (This
in turn sits on top of a plastic lid, that fits loosely over the lip
of the square tank.) On the underneath of the cladding's top surface
there was quite a lot of what appeared to be condensation. And I could
just see a trace of water on the outside of the tank itself, below the
rim, at the point which would be above the stain.

I know nothing about these things, so would appreciate a few words
from anyone who does please. Is that really likely to be the cause?
IOW, condensation building up sufficiently to leak out?

Or is it more likely to be this other possibility. At that same point,
the overflow pipe leaves the tank, and it was close to that where I
saw the water on the tank outer surface. The tank water level was an
inch or so below the outlet, but (some 10-20 mins time after using any
taps or loos) there was still a drip-drip coming in through the valve.


--
Terry, West Sussex, UK


If the valve is not completely cutting-off the water, then it probably needs
a new washer (costs a few pence but watch out if it is an all metal valve as
they can be stiff to take apart).
Another cause of leaks can be from the vent pipe for the hot water tank or
central heating system - these are usually an upturned U shape pipe
positioned above their respective tanks and should discharge any overflow
caused by a fault in the system into the tank through a hole in the lid -
but maybe the water is missing the hole? (the brown coloured stain would
suggest it may be from the central heating?)

Dave




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Ian Middleton
 
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"logized" wrote in message
...

"Terry Pinnell" wrote in message
...
While shaving this morning I was dismayed to find a foot size brownish
stain on the newly-painted bathroom ceiling. My worry increased when I
located it to a damp patch on the water tank 'platform' above the
ceiling plasterboard, just on the edge. How on earth, I wondered,
could a thick plastic tank spring a leak? But then I discovered that
the cause is probably much less serious, although still surprising.

Covering the top and most of the sides of the tank is a black plastic
cladding thingie, with thick fibre glass insulation inside it. (This
in turn sits on top of a plastic lid, that fits loosely over the lip
of the square tank.) On the underneath of the cladding's top surface
there was quite a lot of what appeared to be condensation. And I could
just see a trace of water on the outside of the tank itself, below the
rim, at the point which would be above the stain.

I know nothing about these things, so would appreciate a few words
from anyone who does please. Is that really likely to be the cause?
IOW, condensation building up sufficiently to leak out?

Or is it more likely to be this other possibility. At that same point,
the overflow pipe leaves the tank, and it was close to that where I
saw the water on the tank outer surface. The tank water level was an
inch or so below the outlet, but (some 10-20 mins time after using any
taps or loos) there was still a drip-drip coming in through the valve.


--
Terry, West Sussex, UK


If the valve is not completely cutting-off the water, then it probably
needs a new washer (costs a few pence but watch out if it is an all metal
valve as they can be stiff to take apart).
Another cause of leaks can be from the vent pipe for the hot water tank or
central heating system - these are usually an upturned U shape pipe
positioned above their respective tanks and should discharge any overflow
caused by a fault in the system into the tank through a hole in the lid -
but maybe the water is missing the hole? (the brown coloured stain would
suggest it may be from the central heating?)

Dave


In my friends house the 25 year plastic old tank leaked and split at the
side after sitting on a nail poking through the wooden base. Nail eventually
rusted/penetrated the tank allowing water to seep out.

In my latest house during the snaggining I went into the loft (first
problem, no boarded access to tank as per regs) and overflowed the water
tank on purpose. Water leaked from the tank attachement, not screwed up and
from the joint in overflow pipe, not solvent welded !!


  #7   Report Post  
Owain
 
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"Terry Pinnell" wrote
| While shaving this morning I was dismayed to find a foot size
| brownish stain on the newly-painted bathroom ceiling. My worry
| increased when I located it to a damp patch on the water tank
| 'platform' above the ceiling plasterboard, just on the edge.

I do not want to increase your worries further :-)

But I hope the tank platform is not chipboard that is now slowly dissolving,
leading to the tank being insufficiently supported.

Owain


  #8   Report Post  
John Rumm
 
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Terry Pinnell wrote:

I know nothing about these things, so would appreciate a few words
from anyone who does please. Is that really likely to be the cause?
IOW, condensation building up sufficiently to leak out?


I did have a plastic cold water tank that sprang a slow leak (it cracked
near on of the corners - enough to let through a small trickle of drips).

Another possiblity, do you have a hot water cylinder heated from a
boiler? Does it have an expansion pipe that returns to the cold tank? If
so, it might be worth checking that there is no hot water being
delivered into the cold tank by the vent pipe. If so that would indicate
a problem with the heating. The result would be lots more condensation.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/
  #9   Report Post  
Terry Pinnell
 
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John Rumm wrote:

Terry Pinnell wrote:

I know nothing about these things, so would appreciate a few words
from anyone who does please. Is that really likely to be the cause?
IOW, condensation building up sufficiently to leak out?


I did have a plastic cold water tank that sprang a slow leak (it cracked
near on of the corners - enough to let through a small trickle of drips).

Another possiblity, do you have a hot water cylinder heated from a
boiler? Does it have an expansion pipe that returns to the cold tank? If
so, it might be worth checking that there is no hot water being
delivered into the cold tank by the vent pipe. If so that would indicate
a problem with the heating. The result would be lots more condensation.


Thanks for all those helpful replies. Cause was almost certainly the
simplest, i.e. 16-year old valve not shutting off. I was poised with
spanners but chickened out! Plumber cost me £75 altogether. Finished
in about 20 mins. Only difficult moment was getting old metal one
undone - that's where I would have been worried about breaking it. It
was also fairly tricky getting the 'lid' back on, but the two of us
eventually managed that. Cladding now looks somewhat untidy, but don't
suppose that matters a lot.

I have just noticed that, after running water, there is a lot of noisy
'hissing' as tank refills. Seems to be coming from all pipes en route
to the tank and at the valve itself. Definitely wasn't that high
pitched noise before. What is likely cause of that please? Sounds sort
of like air in the pipes.

--
Terry, West Sussex, UK


--
Terry, West Sussex, UK

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John Rumm
 
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Terry Pinnell wrote:

I have just noticed that, after running water, there is a lot of noisy
'hissing' as tank refills. Seems to be coming from all pipes en route
to the tank and at the valve itself. Definitely wasn't that high
pitched noise before. What is likely cause of that please? Sounds sort
of like air in the pipes.


Sounds like what they call "water hammer", probably just a function of
high pressure water through a different type of ball valve. It does not
indicate a problem as such and may just be an indication that the tank
is refilling faster than before.

If the noise is a problem, then you would have to consider changing the
valve for a different design, or perhaps adjusting the flow rate to it
with the addition of a stop valve in-line with it.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/


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Terry Pinnell
 
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"Owain" wrote:

"Terry Pinnell" wrote
| While shaving this morning I was dismayed to find a foot size
| brownish stain on the newly-painted bathroom ceiling. My worry
| increased when I located it to a damp patch on the water tank
| 'platform' above the ceiling plasterboard, just on the edge.

I do not want to increase your worries further :-)

But I hope the tank platform is not chipboard that is now slowly dissolving,
leading to the tank being insufficiently supported.


Happily, no - rough but solid-looking soft wood.

--
Terry, West Sussex, UK

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Terry Pinnell
 
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John Rumm wrote:

Terry Pinnell wrote:

I have just noticed that, after running water, there is a lot of noisy
'hissing' as tank refills. Seems to be coming from all pipes en route
to the tank and at the valve itself. Definitely wasn't that high
pitched noise before. What is likely cause of that please? Sounds sort
of like air in the pipes.


Sounds like what they call "water hammer", probably just a function of
high pressure water through a different type of ball valve.


No hammering or oscillation, just the very noticeable 'whooshing'.

It does not indicate a problem as such and may just be an indication that the tank
is refilling faster than before.

If the noise is a problem, then you would have to consider changing the
valve for a different design, or perhaps adjusting the flow rate to it
with the addition of a stop valve in-line with it.


For £75 (15 mins work, with me as unpaid assistant!) I expect it to be
done properly, so I've called the plumber back.

--
Terry, West Sussex, UK

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The Natural Philosopher
 
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Terry Pinnell wrote:

John Rumm wrote:


Terry Pinnell wrote:


I have just noticed that, after running water, there is a lot of noisy
'hissing' as tank refills. Seems to be coming from all pipes en route
to the tank and at the valve itself. Definitely wasn't that high
pitched noise before. What is likely cause of that please? Sounds sort
of like air in the pipes.


Sounds like what they call "water hammer", probably just a function of
high pressure water through a different type of ball valve.



No hammering or oscillation, just the very noticeable 'whooshing'.


It does not indicate a problem as such and may just be an indication that the tank
is refilling faster than before.

If the noise is a problem, then you would have to consider changing the
valve for a different design, or perhaps adjusting the flow rate to it
with the addition of a stop valve in-line with it.



For £75 (15 mins work, with me as unpaid assistant!) I expect it to be
done properly, so I've called the plumber back.

I reckon you have just suddenly got decent flow after all those years.

If there is air in it, its coming from the incoming mains. Not much you
can do.

My CH whooshes too - I use a fairly high pump speed to get it to the far
corners, and when going through e.g. ball valves and balancing valves in
shorter pipe runs, it whooshes like hell. :-)
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John Rumm
 
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The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Sounds like what they call "water hammer", probably just a function
of high pressure water through a different type of ball valve.




No hammering or oscillation, just the very noticeable 'whooshing'.


That still counts as water hammer... basicaly any noise that is a result
of percussive effects of water flowing through the pipes. Tends to be
worst with high pressure, combined with small openings through valves,
and tight elbows in pipes. You can get the same effect with a tap
sometimes, turn it on a little bit and you will get a hissing noise,
open it up more and it gets quieter.

For £75 (15 mins work, with me as unpaid assistant!) I expect it to be
done properly, so I've called the plumber back.

I reckon you have just suddenly got decent flow after all those years.


Yup, I would go along with that.

Might be worth getting him to fit a Fluidmaster, Torbek, or Siamp valve.
These are a different design from the normal ball valve, and tend to be
quiter (and fill faster).

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/
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Terry Pinnell
 
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John Rumm wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Sounds like what they call "water hammer", probably just a function
of high pressure water through a different type of ball valve.



No hammering or oscillation, just the very noticeable 'whooshing'.


That still counts as water hammer... basicaly any noise that is a result
of percussive effects of water flowing through the pipes. Tends to be
worst with high pressure, combined with small openings through valves,
and tight elbows in pipes. You can get the same effect with a tap
sometimes, turn it on a little bit and you will get a hissing noise,
open it up more and it gets quieter.

For £75 (15 mins work, with me as unpaid assistant!) I expect it to be
done properly, so I've called the plumber back.

I reckon you have just suddenly got decent flow after all those years.


Yup, I would go along with that.

Might be worth getting him to fit a Fluidmaster, Torbek, or Siamp valve.
These are a different design from the normal ball valve, and tend to be
quiter (and fill faster).


Thanks both. I'll report back after his visit.

--
Terry, West Sussex, UK



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Terry Pinnell
 
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Terry Pinnell wrote:


Thanks both. I'll report back after his visit.


On examination, the replaced valve was identical in design to the old
(leaking) original. But this morning he replaced that again at my
request with a different type, similar to a 'Torbek', noted for being
quieter.

After fitting, it sounded only marginally quieter! So I suggested
reducing the mains flow. After I'd turned the main tap a quarter turn
further in, while still getting a decent direct flow at the kitchen
sink, the refill noise diminished drastically. (BTW, I'm surprised the
*plumber* didn't suggest this!)

I suspect the *first* replacement would probably have been
satisfactorily quiet if I'd adjusted the tap. But I'd made a point of
returning it to exactly the same position as before.

--
Terry, West Sussex, UK

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