UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
David W.E. Roberts
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit!

Just thought I would re-iterate my love for Speedfit.

I can't solder to save my life, despite years of trying.
I have made many successful soldered joints.
However I have made at least the same number of unsuccessful ones, and they
are generally a b*ggger to fix once the water has been turned on and off
again.

I was using compression joints prior to discovering Speedfit.
..
I have just fitted a few compression joints in an area where I wanted to use
copper because it is stronger than plastic and I wanted it to be self
supporting.
[Also I had run out of Speedfit joints and had some legacy compression
joints]
It all worked, but took ages, plus two spanners and a load of PTFE tape.
One joint leaked a little, but was cured by undoing and re-fitting with
extra PTFE round the thread plus some PTFE round the olive.

Compare this to Speedfit:

Snip pipe
Insert ends
Push into joints
Job done, no leaks.

Our old plumber, with his trusty blow lamp and moleskin for sweating lead
pipes (done that too, a couple of times) may be turning in his grave.

However, let us lift a brimming glass to John Guest and Speedfit - saviours
of the marginally incompetent!

Cheers
Dave R

--



  #2   Report Post  
Tim Mitchell
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit!

In article , David W.E.
Roberts writes
.
I have just fitted a few compression joints in an area where I wanted to use
copper because it is stronger than plastic and I wanted it to be self
supporting.
[Also I had run out of Speedfit joints and had some legacy compression
joints]
It all worked, but took ages, plus two spanners and a load of PTFE tape.
One joint leaked a little, but was cured by undoing and re-fitting with
extra PTFE round the thread plus some PTFE round the olive.

I found that using PTFE tape on compression joints makes them leak more
rather than less, so I stopped using it. Subsequently I have got into
soldering instead.
--
Tim Mitchell
  #3   Report Post  
Grunff
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit!

Tim Mitchell wrote:

I found that using PTFE tape on compression joints makes them leak more
rather than less, so I stopped using it.


There's really no reason to put PTFE or any goop on compression
joints - it's a metal/metal seal.

--
Grunff

  #4   Report Post  
Dave Plowman
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit!

In article ,
David W.E. Roberts wrote:
I can't solder to save my life, despite years of trying.


Then you must be doing something awfully wrong - it's hardly rocket
science and only takes minutes to master.

I have made many successful soldered joints.



However I have made at least the same number of unsuccessful ones, and
they are generally a b*ggger to fix once the water has been turned on
and off again.


So did you ever wonder what was the difference?

I've only ever had one joint leak out of hundreds, and that turned out to
be a faulty end feed fitting - it had a pin hole in it.

--
*When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn
  #5   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit!


"David W.E. Roberts" wrote in message
...
Just thought I would re-iterate my love for Speedfit.

I can't solder to save my life, despite years of trying.
I have made many successful soldered joints.
However I have made at least the same number of unsuccessful ones, and

they
are generally a b*ggger to fix once the water has been turned on and off
again.

I was using compression joints prior to discovering Speedfit.
.
I have just fitted a few compression joints in an area where I wanted to

use
copper because it is stronger than plastic and I wanted it to be self
supporting.
[Also I had run out of Speedfit joints and had some legacy compression
joints]
It all worked, but took ages, plus two spanners and a load of PTFE tape.
One joint leaked a little, but was cured by undoing and re-fitting with
extra PTFE round the thread plus some PTFE round the olive.

Compare this to Speedfit:

Snip pipe
Insert ends
Push into joints
Job done, no leaks.

Our old plumber, with his trusty blow lamp and moleskin for sweating lead
pipes (done that too, a couple of times) may be turning in his grave.

However, let us lift a brimming glass to John Guest and Speedfit -

saviours
of the marginally incompetent!


Marley make a better system. If you are kak handed and can't solder, then
try using cheap copper pipe and brass push-fit fitting. Cheaper to install
than using all Speedfit. What is it? Speedfit are now in another fitting
re-design and Hep2O in about the 3rd or 4th. Plastic is no panacea get that
clear.



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.488 / Virus Database: 287 - Release Date: 05/06/2003




  #6   Report Post  
David W.E. Roberts
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit!


"Dave Plowman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
David W.E. Roberts wrote:
I can't solder to save my life, despite years of trying.


Then you must be doing something awfully wrong - it's hardly rocket
science and only takes minutes to master.


Bear in mind that this is a personal opinion.
You find it easy.
I don't.


I have made many successful soldered joints.



However I have made at least the same number of unsuccessful ones, and
they are generally a b*ggger to fix once the water has been turned on
and off again.


So did you ever wonder what was the difference?


No, no mate - never gave it a thought.
Didn't even consider I might be doing it wrong.

WOW! Flash of inspiration.

Hey - why don't you get a job as a motivational speaker.
I bet you'd wow the crowds with your deep insights!


I've only ever had one joint leak out of hundreds, and that turned out to
be a faulty end feed fitting - it had a pin hole in it.

--
*When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn



  #7   Report Post  
David W.E. Roberts
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit!


"BillR" wrote in message
...
David W.E. Roberts wrote:
Just thought I would re-iterate my love for Speedfit.

I can't solder to save my life, despite years of trying.
I have made many successful soldered joints.
However I have made at least the same number of unsuccessful ones,
and they are generally a b*ggger to fix once the water has been
turned on and off again.

snip
However, let us lift a brimming glass to John Guest and Speedfit -
saviours of the marginally incompetent!

Cheers
Dave R


I love speedfit too but tend to solder where the pipe is exposed and I

want
it to look neater or more compact.
The secret of getting a solder joint right 1st time imho is
a) clean pipe and inside fittings with wire wool. Ignore how clean or new
they look, just do it.
b) use flux.
If its had water in it already and it can't be made perfectly dry, I use
compression.


Yep - tried that - always used the trusty wire wool and then flux.
My problem was I could never get the heating quite right.
I tried various high and low heat nozzles on my Gaz blow lamp, but to no
avail.
Heating the pipe near the joint, heating the joint, heating away from the
joint for a slower raise in temperature.
There seemed to be about a microsecond between no solder and the 'spifzz' as
the ring of solder spat out of the yorkshire joint.

Usually ended up tinning the end of the copper pipe with solder and then
easing gently in.
Used a load of solder but usually worked in the end.

As you say, those that leaked were often easier to replace with compression.

After a while I decided that the general trauma of trying to solder plus the
time wasted justified using compression joints for everything.

I also found it much easier to dis-assemble and re-assemble compression
fittings.

Now I have started using the push fit joints and they seem so far ahead of
compresssion joints that they will be my joint of choice in future
(until/unless various dire predictions on this thread come to pass).

Thanks
Dave R


  #8   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit!


"David W.E. Roberts" wrote in message
...

Now I have started using the push fit joints and they seem so far ahead of
compresssion joints


Push-fit are no match for compressions joints. There is some junk out there.
but a good quality compression fitting will last eons. It is a firm well
made joint of metal to metal. 50-60 years ago people were saying the same
about compression that you are saying about push-fit, in praising their cold
fitting ease of use, speed in installation, etc, but reservations over
longevity and high fitting cost. Over the 60 years that compression has
become widespread they have been proven a success....and cheaper than
push-fit. Let's see if many push-fit fitting are still around in 60 years
time.



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.488 / Virus Database: 287 - Release Date: 05/06/2003


  #9   Report Post  
Mike Ring
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit!

"David W.E. Roberts" wrote in
:

Heating the pipe near the joint, heating the joint, heating away from
the joint for a slower raise in temperature.
There seemed to be about a microsecond between no solder and the
'spifzz' as the ring of solder spat out of the yorkshire joint.

Usually ended up tinning the end of the copper pipe with solder and
then easing gently in.
Used a load of solder but usually worked in the end.

You may have missed one essential - apologies if you haven't - and that is
to make sure the end of the run is open to the air.

If there's a tap or valve, make sure it's open, if not the expanding air
due to heat will blow out the joint.

You can also tlerate some water not too close if there is no chance for a
pressure build up

HTH

mike r
  #10   Report Post  
StealthUK
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit!

Speedfit has its advantages, but under floor boards I would still
rather have a soldered joint. Mind you, I wouldn't trust compression
fittings under boards either. I love speedfit as well but last year I
used some 22mm speedfit tank connectors and the pipes kept leaking
unless the pipe was totally square to the fitting. After much headache
I ended up having to use compression fittings. I'm going to be running
some speedfit in a couple of bathrooms soon but am going to make sure
that any connections are not boxed in. Another thing that concerns me
is the super seal pipe insert with the extra rubber seal - why is this
needed if the normal connection is so good?


  #11   Report Post  
Grunff
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit!

StealthUK wrote:
Speedfit has its advantages, but under floor boards I would still
rather have a soldered joint. Mind you, I wouldn't trust compression
fittings under boards either. I love speedfit as well but last year I
used some 22mm speedfit tank connectors and the pipes kept leaking
unless the pipe was totally square to the fitting.


Do you mean the grey tank connectors?

I used JG SpeedFit throughout my house, and had no leaks at all,
except from the tank connector - which *wasn't made by JG* -
they are made by someone else, and they are truly crap. The
O-ring is nearly a mm too big (and no, they aren't sold as
imperial connectors).

--
Grunff

  #12   Report Post  
Phil Addison
 
Posts: n/a
Default Capillary Fittings - How to Solder them Successfully (Version 2) - Was I LOVE Speedfit! - Soldering Capillary Fittings.txt (0/1)

This is basically as originally posted uk.d-i-y on 13/06/1996, with
spelling corrections, and incorporating comments from the original
thread. See thread .
The original subject (complete with spelling error) was "Capilliary
fittings - how to solder successfully (LONG)"

This time the post is prompted by David W.E. Roberts who wrote on Fri, 1
Aug 2003 12:38:47 +0100 re "I LOVE Speedfit!" in message


Just thought I would re-iterate my love for Speedfit.

I can't solder to save my life, despite years of trying.
I have made many successful soldered joints.
However I have made at least the same number of unsuccessful ones, and they
are generally a b*ggger to fix once the water has been turned on and off
again.

I was using compression joints prior to discovering Speedfit.

I have just fitted a few compression joints in an area where I wanted to use
copper because it is stronger than plastic and I wanted it to be self
supporting.


Capillary Fittings - How to Solder them Successfully (Version 2)
----------------------------------------------------------------

Capillary Fittings are used for joining copper pipes with solder. There
are two basic types, with and without a pre-formed solder ring inside
them. Those with the solder ring are usually referred to as Yorkshire,
after the original manufacturer. Those without it are called end-feed,
because you have to supply the solder by feeding it in between the end
of the fitting and the pipe.

The following question - typical of those frequently asked - inspired
this description. Thanks to Peter Neville for the original question, and
to useful contributions at the time from Matthew Marks, John Laird, Jon
Rouse, Andrew Willoughby, Karel Hladky, Andy the Pugh, Wookey, Ed
Sirett, Simon Jenkins, and John Stumbles. This topic has been revisited
many times since, and a Google search will surely elicit additional
hints.

(Peter Neville) wrote:
I've just, unsuccessfully, tried to use a capillary fitting on a
15mm pipe. Total failure this time - I heated and heated and no
solder appeared.


These things don't need THAT much heat.

The fitting MUST be bone dry and so must the inside of the tube for AT
LEAST 12" from the joint. If there is ANY water lying in the pipe, or
dripping from above, you WILL NOT be able to solder it. Get rid of the
water, use a compression joint, or try that brilliant idea with the
bread. If there is no water flow you can dry out this 12" length with
the flame until steam stops appearing.

You MUST remove all traces of copper oxide from the mating surfaces with
wire-wool. Yes wire wool. Emery paper will NOT work, it reacts with the
copper in some way, neither will a file. Well, that's my experience -
others tell me that wet-and-dry paper works fine. Others say Scotchbrite
works. You can SOMETIMES get away without wire-wooling the INSIDE of the
fitting but its not worth omitting it because of the hassle of reworking
when it fails :-(. My little finger is just small enough to go into a
15mm capillary with a bit of wire-wool wrapped round it. Just one 360
degree wipe does the trick.

Some people swear by the use of acid fluxes which are said to avoid the
need for this thorough cleaning. I have not tried them myself.

Having cleaned BOTH parts you must lightly smear BOTH with flux. As
well as letting the solder flow this helps transfer heat between the
parts.

Do NOT OVERHEAT. If the solder ring does not appear before the flame
goes green something has gone wrong. Further heat will just distort the
parts and can prevent you getting them apart without wrecking something.

You are not supposed to need to add any extra solder but I most always
use extra solder to 'help' the solder ring to flow nicely. I use wire
solder from a reel, not the stuff in a solid bar.

WIPE off any external flux while still hot. This is easy to do but
plumbers never seem to bother. It eventually makes a green mess if you
leave it.

INSPECT the finished joint when cool to be sure the solder flowed all
round - otherwise you might have a leak. Visual inspection is final the
secret of good joints. If you cannot see a thin silver ring of solder
all around the jointed edge, there is something wrong.

If you want to solder the fitting to only one pipe leaving the other
connections till later, you MUST put a short length of UNCLEANED and
UNFLUXED tube in the other outlet(s) and make sure you use just enough
heat to flow the solder, and keep the heat away from the other ends. A
damp rag wrapped around the dummy stub will keep it cool if necessary
The idea is to be SURE the solder ring does not melt on that end. When
it's cool you can remove the dummy and the inner solder ring should be
intact.

Other tips:-

Make sure the pipe is cut square. Don't use a hacksaw, invest a fiver in
a pipe cutter tools which will make a square cut and with less effort.

Solder tends to run towards the heat, even uphill (a bit). So when you
solder a vertical tube coming upwards out of a fitting, get the pipe hot
before playing the flame on the fitting.

Always keep the heat even, i.e. move the flame all around the joint (or
at least heat a bit one side then the other).

Use a metal sheet to protect nearby materials, or an asbestos gauze
sheet obtainable from plumbers merchants for this purpose. Aluminium
cooking foil, wet rags or wet tissues have been used, too.

Be VERY careful when aiming the flame downwards between floorboards etc.
Dry wood ignites easily.

Use gloves to handle hot parts (ouch).

Cleaning surplus solder from parts: Heat until the solder melts, tap the
part on the bench edge to jolt the molten solder out, then WIPE the
surplus off with a DRY cloth. For cleaning off internal parts, attach
cloth to a wire and pull it through the component after heating to melt
solder.

Think about future modifications or repair to the system. You WILL NOT
be able to unsolder the joint if it is in a leg of pipe from which the
water cannot be drained. Consider using a compression joint, or a drain
cock, at a strategic place to allow dead legs to be drained. Otherwise
you have to cut the pipe.

Don't reuse old central heating tube on drinking water circuits - it
tastes foul.

Do make a practice assembly of all parts before soldering to be sure
lengths and bends are correct - much easier than unsoldering and
starting over!

Andrew Willoughby wrote:

I gave up using Yorkshires (solder ring) years ago. Endex are much cheaper and
you are more in control, you add the solder as and when you want to, far easier
when you get used to them. As for compressions! They _are_ hard work.


Andrew, I do agree, and all I said above also applies to end-feed
fittings (which have no pre-applied solder ring inside). You just need
to be even more rigorous to follow the advice, plus thoroughly wire-wool
the inside of the fitting, and of course feed in solder wire which has
been dipped in the flux tin.

More tips:

Practice with Yorkshires till you have the knack then try end-feeds. As
Andrew says, they are much cheaper. Use Yorkshire for that awkward
situation where the end-fed solder would have to go seriously uphill,
e.g. the fitting at the top of a vertical pipe.

A good joint has a convex meniscus ring of solder visible all around the
joint. If you don't see it, re-read the advice and start again.

--
Phil Addison
The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at
http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
Remove NOSPAM from address to reply
  #13   Report Post  
David W.E. Roberts
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit!


"Mike Ring" wrote in message
52.50...
"David W.E. Roberts" wrote in
:

Heating the pipe near the joint, heating the joint, heating away from
the joint for a slower raise in temperature.
There seemed to be about a microsecond between no solder and the
'spifzz' as the ring of solder spat out of the yorkshire joint.

Usually ended up tinning the end of the copper pipe with solder and
then easing gently in.
Used a load of solder but usually worked in the end.

You may have missed one essential - apologies if you haven't - and that is
to make sure the end of the run is open to the air.

If there's a tap or valve, make sure it's open, if not the expanding air
due to heat will blow out the joint.

You can also tlerate some water not too close if there is no chance for a
pressure build up

HTH

mike r


Mike,
good point, thanks, but my soldering incompetence is far more generalised
:-)
Cheers
Dave R


  #14   Report Post  
Essjay001
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit!

Dave Plowman wrote:

Then you must be doing something awfully wrong - it's hardly rocket
science and only takes minutes to master.


Be that as it may some people can't solder.


  #15   Report Post  
Essjay001
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit!

IMM wrote:


Marley make a better system. If you are kak handed and can't solder,
then try using cheap copper pipe and brass push-fit fitting. Cheaper
to install than using all Speedfit. What is it? Speedfit are now in
another fitting re-design and Hep2O in about the 3rd or 4th. Plastic
is no panacea get that clear.

If plastic pipe is good enough for Steve & Norm its good enough for me.





  #16   Report Post  
Andrew McKay
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit!

On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 12:38:47 +0100, "David W.E. Roberts"
wrote:

I can't solder to save my life, despite years of trying.


I found the key issue was preparing the solder joint, which means
liberal use of wire wool on the pipe to be soldered, followed by a
smidgen of flux before bringing the joint together.

Any residual dirt on the pipe invariably leads to a poor joint.

I prefer the pre-soldered elbows though.

Andrew

Do you need a handyman service? Check out our
web site at http://www.handymac.co.uk
  #17   Report Post  
Dave Plowman
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit!

In article ,
Essjay001 wrote:
Then you must be doing something awfully wrong - it's hardly rocket
science and only takes minutes to master.


Be that as it may some people can't solder.


Well, surely this group should try to help those overcome their
difficulties? I really don't believe *any* DIYer is incapable of learning
how to do it correctly.

Of course, it could be they prefer to plug an inferior product for
whatever reason.

--
*Aim Low, Reach Your Goals, Avoid Disappointment *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn
  #18   Report Post  
Dave Plowman
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit!

In article ,
Andrew McKay wrote:
I can't solder to save my life, despite years of trying.


I found the key issue was preparing the solder joint, which means
liberal use of wire wool on the pipe to be soldered, followed by a
smidgen of flux before bringing the joint together.


While proper cleaning is a good idea, the use of an aggressive flux is
belt and braces. I've tried experimenting soldering green copper using
this stuff, and it made a perfect joint.

Any residual dirt on the pipe invariably leads to a poor joint.


I prefer the pre-soldered elbows though.


I don't think they're worth the considerable additional cost. Moreover,
with separate solder you're in no doubt when it melts, especially when say
you can't see the back of the fitting. Oh, and end feed are neater looking.

--
*Isn't it a bit unnerving that doctors call what they do "practice?"

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn
  #19   Report Post  
froggers
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit!

Of the systems widely available I settled on Hep20 which I believe became
Marley Equator.
I didn't feel that others were quite as well engineered - recently in the
local B and Q
the (independent) plumber bloke in there said B and Q have now apparently
classified Equator
as the top quality although they also stock Speedfit and the copper pushfit
range as well.

Of the problems I have had (almost none) was some plastic swarf over the o
ring in a fitting
which dripped once every 10 minutes and joints where the pipes was so badly
and deeply scored
that I couldn't believe would have a chance of sealing and all but two did -
very impressed
overall

Nick


  #20   Report Post  
stuart noble
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit!


Dave Plowman wrote in message ...
I prefer the pre-soldered elbows though.


I don't think they're worth the considerable additional cost. Moreover,
with separate solder you're in no doubt when it melts, especially when say
you can't see the back of the fitting. Oh, and end feed are neater looking.


But what do you do if a soldered joint does leak? How do you dry it out etc?
Can you unsolder a joint by re-heating it?
My pessimism in regard to my own joints is such that I just assume I'll have
to re-do all of them at least twice, which is why I'm more comfortable with
compression fittings. Actually, most of them are spot on first time but
anxiety's a funny thing.




  #21   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit!


"froggers" wrote in message
...

Of the systems widely available I settled
on Hep20 which I believe became
Marley Equator.


No so. two separate companies and systems.

I didn't feel that others were quite as
well engineered - recently in the
local B and Q the (independent) plumber
bloke in there said B and Q have now apparently
classified Equator as the top quality although
they also stock Speedfit and the copper pushfit
range as well.


In B&Qs they stock Speedfit and Polyplumb. In B&Q Warehouses they also
stock Equator. I find Equator well priced.




---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.488 / Virus Database: 287 - Release Date: 05/06/2003


  #22   Report Post  
David W.E. Roberts
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit!


"Dave Plowman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
David W.E. Roberts wrote:
Heating the pipe near the joint, heating the joint, heating away from
the joint for a slower raise in temperature. There seemed to be about a
microsecond between no solder and the 'spifzz' as the ring of solder
spat out of the yorkshire joint.


You seem to love the expensive option. Non solder ring fittings are *much*
cheaper, and can't 'spit the solder out'.

--
*Monday is an awful way to spend 1/7th of your life *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn


I think quite a few respondents are losing sight of the DIY aspect of all
this.
For DIY read - "some people only do this once every year or so - or perhaps
only once".

I appreciate that copper is much cheaper, and that the basic 'end feed'
joints can be picked up by the bag full at plumbers merchants for very
little money.
They are simple in construction, neat in appearance, and virtually all
professional plumbers use them.
For a professional, the cost saving over a job is considerable and a good
soldered joint should last 100 years.
Once mastered (!) the technique becomes second nature.

However for the DIY person ease of use can justify a premium cost,
especially if only a few units are used.
As discussed in this thread, successful soldering depends on care, careful
preparation, and a learned technique to get the heating of the joint just
right.
In certain circumstances (such as soldering under the floorboards next to
joists) there is the additional risk of fire, so you have to take extra
precautions.
Finally you are dealing with (ouch!) heat above water boiling point.
It also involves quite a bit of extra work in the situation when you realise
that you haven't put the pipe work quite where it should go (or realised you
should have put something else in first).
Or if it turns out that your joint wasn't as good as you thought it was.
If you have already filled the pipes with water your problems can be
compounded by having to dry everything out first.
I value the ability to quickly un-pipe runs and then re-fit them.

So I think we are getting a little at cross purposes.
End feed copper is cheap and proven by time, and I would suspect will still
be around in another 50 years.
The professionals choice.
As mentioned elsewhere, when compression joints first came in the
traditionalists predicted dire problems but now they are accepted.
I expect that there will be more and more use of push fit joints, especially
around units such as power shower pumps, where ease and speed of fitting
justifies the higher component cost.
Perhaps one day your average plumber will appear with a length of plastic
pipe and a pair of snips and the smell of hot flux and solder will be gone
forever.
[O.K. I know boilers need copper close to them :-) Grant me a little poetic
license.]

If cost is the overriding factor then take the time to learn to use soldered
copper.
It is a useful technique anyway for visible joints you wish to be
unobtrusive.
For dedicated DIYers the technique can be as important as the end result.
However if you are doing your first (and perhaps only) plumbing job then
push fit joints could save you a lot of grief.

What prompted the original post?
I had just put together a run of four pipes which all go round one corner of
the bathroom.
There is a little 'nexus' with six elbow joints in a very small area.
With Speedfit I just fitted whichever suited and then threaded additional
pipes under/round/over the first one.
Just a push, and a leak free joint.
I thought 'damn, that was so easy'.
And reflected on my previous forays into plumbing over the last 30 years.
Which led me to the conclusion "I LOVE Speedfit!"

This is an expression of a personal view, does not denigrate the use of
other technologies, and freely acknowledges the right of all thinking beings
to use the plumbing techniques of their choice :-))

Thanks again for all the responses.

Cheers
Dave R


  #23   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit!


"David W.E. Roberts" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...
"StealthUK" wrote in message
om...

snip
and unskilled cheap labour can do the fitting

snip

Well, yes, that is me all right :-)


Some developers are experiencing far too many call backs on leaks. Some
leaks are intermittent in that they leak when hot and re-seal when cool.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.488 / Virus Database: 287 - Release Date: 05/06/2003


  #24   Report Post  
David W.E. Roberts
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit!


"IMM" wrote in message
...
"StealthUK" wrote in message
om...

snip
and unskilled cheap labour can do the fitting

snip

Well, yes, that is me all right :-)


  #25   Report Post  
David W.E. Roberts
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit! - bad batch of copper pipe


"IMM" wrote in message
...

snip
I think quite a few respondents are losing
sight of the DIY aspect of all this.
For DIY read - "some people only do this
once every year or so - or perhaps
only once".


very true!! That is why I always recommend combi's and copper pipe with
brass push-fit. Brass push-fit fittings are now about the same price as
plastic push-fit and copper pipe is buttons. The best by far use plastic

in
coils for inaccessible places where you can thread it.


Yep - forgot to mention that I fell in love with plastic pipe first.
I had a piece of copper fail with mains cold water.

[I am told there was a very bad batch of copper many years back and this
resulted in copper pipes corroding and starting to leak. We had a batch of
this in our house and had several runs (including some plastered into the
walls) which developed pinhole leaks which incidentally are a b*gger to
trace. Had most of it replaced under the insurance, including a new plastic
water main (think we may have paid for that bit).]

Our main bathroom is quite small and when we had it redone we had a four
piece suite fitted - a 'funiture unit' with toilet, WHB and bidet, and a
seriously solid bath. The failed pipe was under this 'furniture unit' and
bath and was sending a fine spray of water everywhere. Brought down a bit of
the downstairs toilet ceiling. The bathroom is over our downstairs loo and
the front porch.
I investigated and found that because the bathroom suite had to be
'shoehorned' in the furniture unit had been fitted first, then the bath.
To get out this unit I would first have to remove the bath which was all
nicely tiled in - in effect I would have to gut the bathroom.

Solution - get at one end of the pipe through the ceiling which had come
down, and cut it out.
[This was me coming up under the bath from the floor below.]
Remove the other end from the cold tap in the bathroom.
Leave the pipe 'in situ' because of bends etc. preventing removal.
Thread bendy white plastic pipe through the maze of other pipes and fit to
bathroom sink.
Connect to main cold water above downstairs toilet.

I didn't replace the bit of ceiling - fitted a wooden panel instead so I
could get at the pipes in future if required!

So the bendiness of plastic is both a problem and in some cases a distinct
advantage!

On reflection we should have got it done on the insurance but you don't
always remember this when the downstairs loo is full of damp plaster!

Still, when the rest of the pipes went, we had that done on the insurance.

Ah, memories.
Dave R

P.S. Your house too could be full of low quality ageing copper pipe which is
corroding through.
Be afraid.
Be very afraid.

I have no idea how you identify this stuff before it goes, though :-(




  #26   Report Post  
Dave Plowman
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit!

In article ,
stuart noble wrote:
I don't think they're worth the considerable additional cost.
Moreover, with separate solder you're in no doubt when it melts,
especially when say you can't see the back of the fitting. Oh, and end
feed are neater looking.


But what do you do if a soldered joint does leak?


The chances of this *really are* slim if you do it properly.

How do you dry it out etc? Can you unsolder a joint by re-heating it?


You drain down in the normal way, and simply unsolder by heating it. If it
were at the bottom of a loop with water lying in it this wouldn't be
possible, but then you shouldn't have such a loop anyway. But if you had,
you'd simply cut if off with a pipe cutter, and extend the pipe to fit
when re-making. Let's face it, pipe and end feed fittings are so cheap you
don't have to worry.


My pessimism in regard to my own joints is such that I just assume I'll
have to re-do all of them at least twice, which is why I'm more
comfortable with compression fittings. Actually, most of them are spot
on first time but anxiety's a funny thing.


Know what you mean, but there's far more chance of a leak with a
compression fitting as it's susceptible to mechanical damage - a bad
scratch or whatever - that solder would easily fill.

--
*I'm already visualizing the duct tape over your mouth

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn
  #27   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit! - bad batch of copper pipe


"David W.E. Roberts" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

snip
I think quite a few respondents are losing
sight of the DIY aspect of all this.
For DIY read - "some people only do this
once every year or so - or perhaps
only once".


very true!! That is why I always recommend combi's and copper pipe with
brass push-fit. Brass push-fit fittings are now about the same price as
plastic push-fit and copper pipe is buttons. The best by far use

plastic
in
coils for inaccessible places where you can thread it.


Yep - forgot to mention that I fell in love with plastic pipe first.
I had a piece of copper fail with mains cold water.

[I am told there was a very bad batch of
copper many years back and this
resulted in copper pipes corroding and
starting to leak.


It was mainly cheap Eastern European stuff. You got what you paid for as it
was cheap. Who is to say there will not be a bad batch of plastic? Someone
didn't set the control right for the right mix of plastic? I have never had
copper pipe fail on me. I have only overheard rare stories from others.




---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.488 / Virus Database: 287 - Release Date: 05/06/2003


  #28   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit!


"Grunff" wrote in message
...
StealthUK wrote:
Speedfit has its advantages, but under floor boards I would still
rather have a soldered joint. Mind you, I wouldn't trust compression
fittings under boards either. I love speedfit as well but last year I
used some 22mm speedfit tank connectors and the pipes kept leaking
unless the pipe was totally square to the fitting.


Do you mean the grey tank connectors?

I used JG SpeedFit throughout my house, and had no leaks at all,
except from the tank connector - which *wasn't made by JG* -
they are made by someone else, and they are truly crap. The
O-ring is nearly a mm too big (and no, they aren't sold as
imperial connectors).


Are they sold by Speedfit?


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.488 / Virus Database: 287 - Release Date: 05/06/2003


  #29   Report Post  
Andrew McKay
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit!

On Sat, 2 Aug 2003 11:59:58 +0100, "IMM" wrote:

They are carpenters!!


Stop! Wait a minute mister Post-man....wait a minute, wait a minute,
mister post-ost-ost-ost-ost-man......



Never as good as the originals.

Andrew

Do you need a handyman service? Check out our
web site at http://www.handymac.co.uk
  #30   Report Post  
Grunff
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit!

IMM wrote:

Are they sold by Speedfit?


No, but they are sold by B&Q and many plumbers merchants, and
very often shelved with the SpeedFit range.

Having said that, ScrewFix are now listing the tank connector
under the SpeedFit range, so presumably those ones are SpeedFit.

--
Grunff



  #31   Report Post  
froggers
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit!


No so. two separate companies and systems.


The Hepworth engineer went to Marley and evolved Equator.....

Nick


  #32   Report Post  
Essjay001
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit!

IMM wrote:
"Essjay001" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:


Marley make a better system. If you are kak handed and can't
solder, then try using cheap copper pipe and brass push-fit
fitting. Cheaper to install than using all Speedfit. What is it?
Speedfit are now in another fitting re-design and Hep2O in about
the 3rd or 4th. Plastic is no panacea get that clear.
If plastic pipe is good enough for Steve & Norm its good enough
for me.


They are carpenters!!


You obviously the same progs as me.
Steve R
--
"Latest gear:- One piece one button suit extremely comfortable, perfect
for Relaxation, Sports, Hiking, Swimming, a must have" OOPS sorry you
have one!!!


  #33   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit!


"froggers" wrote in message
...

No so. two separate companies and systems.


The Hepworth engineer went to Marley and evolved Equator.....


Maybe, but still two separate systems and companies. He obviously designed
out the bulkiness of Hep2o, as Equator is much smaller and neater.



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.488 / Virus Database: 287 - Release Date: 05/06/2003


  #34   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit!


"Grunff" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

Are they sold by Speedfit?


No, but they are sold by B&Q and many plumbers merchants, and
very often shelved with the SpeedFit range.

Having said that, ScrewFix are now listing the tank connector
under the SpeedFit range, so presumably those ones are SpeedFit.


You say "presumably".


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.488 / Virus Database: 287 - Release Date: 05/06/2003


  #35   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit!

On Sun, 3 Aug 2003 04:38:28 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"froggers" wrote in message
...

No so. two separate companies and systems.


The Hepworth engineer went to Marley and evolved Equator.....


Maybe, but still two separate systems and companies. He obviously designed
out the bulkiness of Hep2o, as Equator is much smaller and neater.



Is that its only claim to fame?

I quite like the features that Speedfit has of the option of a pipe
insert with an extra O-ring seal and the twist-lock ring. The pipe
insert is also said to enable the joint to be stabilised against any
sideways forces which might happen if the pipe is being fed through an
awkward place. The twist lock is in addition to the normal metal
mechanical securing method. It appears that Equator, from the data
sheets at least, is similar technology to Hep2o.

As far as appearance is concerned, Speedfit strikes me as a bit less
lumpy in appearance than Hep2o. However, none of the plastic
solutions would win £10 in the Monopoly beauty contest, would they?



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl


  #36   Report Post  
Essjay001
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit!

Essjay001 wrote:
IMM wrote:

They are carpenters!!


You obviously the same progs as me.



Er sorry I say that again.
You obviously don't watch the same progs as me.

--
Steve R
--
"Latest gear:- One piece one button suit extremely comfortable, perfect
for Relaxation, Sports, Hiking, Swimming, a must have" OOPS sorry you
have one!!!


  #37   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit!


"Toby" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:
That is why I always recommend combi's and copper pipe
with brass push-fit. Brass push-fit fittings are now about the same
price as plastic push-fit and copper pipe is buttons. The best by


Electrical continuity? Surely a brass push fit should be treated the same

as
an all plastic affair.


Yes.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.488 / Virus Database: 287 - Release Date: 05/06/2003


  #38   Report Post  
Colin Swan
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit! - bad batch of copper pipe

On Sat, 2 Aug 2003 13:12:55 +0100, "David W.E. Roberts"
wrote:


"IMM" wrote in message
...

snip
I think quite a few respondents are losing
sight of the DIY aspect of all this.
For DIY read - "some people only do this
once every year or so - or perhaps
only once".


very true!! That is why I always recommend combi's and copper pipe with
brass push-fit. Brass push-fit fittings are now about the same price as
plastic push-fit and copper pipe is buttons. The best by far use plastic

in
coils for inaccessible places where you can thread it.


Yep - forgot to mention that I fell in love with plastic pipe first.
I had a piece of copper fail with mains cold water.

[I am told there was a very bad batch of copper many years back and this
resulted in copper pipes corroding and starting to leak. We had a batch of
this in our house and had several runs (including some plastered into the
walls) which developed pinhole leaks which incidentally are a b*gger to
trace. Had most of it replaced under the insurance, including a new plastic
water main (think we may have paid for that bit).]

Our main bathroom is quite small and when we had it redone we had a four
piece suite fitted - a 'funiture unit' with toilet, WHB and bidet, and a
seriously solid bath. The failed pipe was under this 'furniture unit' and
bath and was sending a fine spray of water everywhere. Brought down a bit of
the downstairs toilet ceiling. The bathroom is over our downstairs loo and
the front porch.
I investigated and found that because the bathroom suite had to be
'shoehorned' in the furniture unit had been fitted first, then the bath.
To get out this unit I would first have to remove the bath which was all
nicely tiled in - in effect I would have to gut the bathroom.

Solution - get at one end of the pipe through the ceiling which had come
down, and cut it out.
[This was me coming up under the bath from the floor below.]
Remove the other end from the cold tap in the bathroom.
Leave the pipe 'in situ' because of bends etc. preventing removal.
Thread bendy white plastic pipe through the maze of other pipes and fit to
bathroom sink.
Connect to main cold water above downstairs toilet.

I didn't replace the bit of ceiling - fitted a wooden panel instead so I
could get at the pipes in future if required!

So the bendiness of plastic is both a problem and in some cases a distinct
advantage!

On reflection we should have got it done on the insurance but you don't
always remember this when the downstairs loo is full of damp plaster!

Still, when the rest of the pipes went, we had that done on the insurance.

Ah, memories.
Dave R

P.S. Your house too could be full of low quality ageing copper pipe which is
corroding through.
Be afraid.
Be very afraid.

I have no idea how you identify this stuff before it goes, though :-(


My 1930s semi had a Servowarm system fitted when there was a shortage
of copper, and it was done in steel. Some of it has now been replaced
with copper as we have moved stuff around, and I was pleased to see
that the bits of steel pipe cut off appear to be in pretty good
condition. I had been told that it *will* fail, and that any plumber
brave enough to try adding to it will have great difficulty and end up
replacing most of it. Thankfully, this appears to not be the case, but
I keep an eye on it anyway.



Regards,

Colin Swan
Nildram Operations
  #39   Report Post  
Dave Plowman
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit! - bad batch of copper pipe

In article ,
Colin Swan colin AT nildram DOT net wrote:
My 1930s semi had a Servowarm system fitted when there was a shortage
of copper, and it was done in steel. Some of it has now been replaced
with copper as we have moved stuff around, and I was pleased to see
that the bits of steel pipe cut off appear to be in pretty good
condition. I had been told that it *will* fail, and that any plumber
brave enough to try adding to it will have great difficulty and end up
replacing most of it. Thankfully, this appears to not be the case, but
I keep an eye on it anyway.


Iron barrel was used for piping water and gas before copper became common.
With a central heating system there should be no air in the water, so no
corrosion. But an inhibitor would stop this anyway.

Its modern equivalent is electrical conduit so the skills to form it etc
still exist, although not, I'd guess, with the average plumber.

--
*Why is it called tourist season if we can't shoot at them?

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn
  #40   Report Post  
John
 
Posts: n/a
Default I LOVE Speedfit! - bad batch of copper pipe


"Dave Plowman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Colin Swan colin AT nildram DOT net wrote:
My 1930s semi had a Servowarm system fitted when there was a shortage
of copper, and it was done in steel. Some of it has now been replaced
with copper as we have moved stuff around, and I was pleased to see
that the bits of steel pipe cut off appear to be in pretty good
condition. I had been told that it *will* fail, and that any plumber
brave enough to try adding to it will have great difficulty and end up
replacing most of it. Thankfully, this appears to not be the case, but
I keep an eye on it anyway.


Iron barrel was used for piping water and gas before copper became

common.
With a central heating system there should be no air in the water, so no
corrosion. But an inhibitor would stop this anyway.

Its modern equivalent is electrical conduit so the skills to form it etc
still exist, although not, I'd guess, with the average plumber.

Dave, I think you are unfamiliar with the steel pipe which was used as a
get-you-by for a while. This is thin wall stuff (about 1mm or less) with
the same dimensions as copper so it could be fitted using the same fittings
both compression and soldered. Some is still around in reasonably well
protected systems which have been kept up to strength with corrosion
inhibitors but some alas is suffering from the effects of corrosion and is
failing. Corroded pipe is a bitch to try to connect to and it is better to
rip it out and replace wherever possible. Perhaps the stuff you are
thinking of is good old fashioned thick wall steel pipe jointed by screwing
or welding?
About the same time a lot of continental copper pipe was imported to
overcome the shortages but which seems to have had particles of some
corrodible metal in it. Over the years these have corroded away and formed
pinholes. The trade used it in good faith and found out afterwards what
crap it really was. Some lengths had one particle in them somewhere and
some lengths have revealed a great number of them which produces,
eventually, something akin to a watering can spreader bar for putting
weedkiller on the lawn!


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:38 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 DIYbanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about DIY & home improvement"