From the BBC website:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4035343.stm

How PC are your PVC windows?

One of the biggest revolutions in the look of Britain's buildings in
recent years has been in windows.

The British government's efforts to cut energy use in homes has
singled out windows for special attention.

All new and replacement windows now have to be double glazed to cut
heat loss.

Consequently, wooden window frames have given way to PVC framed double
glazing, which is cheaper to buy and install than double glazed timber
frames.

In fact, wood double glazing can cost up to three times as much as PVC
double glazing.

Brittle

Many environmentalists acknowledge that double glazing helps cut
energy use, but they also argue that PVC is a damaging chemical.

"The main problem with PVC is that it deteriorates with the action of
ultraviolet light from the sun," says Jeff Howell, building expert,
author and journalist for the Telegraph and the Independent newspapers
in the UK.

"This apparently causes the chlorine to actually evaporate from the
material and it goes brittle, it goes discoloured, you lean a ladder
up against the window sill and after a few years it becomes so brittle
that it just breaks off."

The claim is refuted by industry officials who insist critics of PVC
simply do not understand the material.

"They don't know what PVC is," says Jean Pierre DeGreve, of the
European Council of Vinyl Manufacturers.

Insulation value

Mr DeGreve argues that PVC is as environmentally friendly as the
alternatives and generates benefits for consumers.

"People prefer PVC because they do not have to maintain the frame of
the window," he says.

Not so, insists Mr Howell.

"People are often sold replacement PVC double glazed windows with the
promise that it is going to save them money in the long run by keeping
in the heat," he says.

"PVC is often sold as being a long-lasting energy saving material, but
it's not. It lasts maybe 20 years."

Moreover, Mr Howell continues, "the frames themselves do not have a
higher insulation value and the glass isn't all that it's cracked up
to be".

Waste

What happens at the end of a PVC window's life is also hotly disputed.

Mr DeGreve argues that PVC is "the polymer which is very easy to
recycle, much easier than other plastics". But environmentalists
refuted the argument, pointing out that in practice very few PVC
window frames are currently recycled in Britain.

Some argue that it simply is not economical to separate the PVC from
the window handles, glass and other parts.

And PVC cannot be sent to incinerators, because it releases dangerous
chemicals if burnt.

Mr DeGreve, however, points out that wood windows may pose
environmental threats too.

"If [consumers] choose wood they need to paint it regularly, and of
course this is not environmentally friendly at all," he says.

"Additionally, at the end of the life of a wooden window frame you
have to do something. You can put it in landfill, but of course you
put the paint in landfill, or you have to incinerate it.

"It means you have to incinerate the paint, which is not productive
for the environment."

Waste mountain

At the heart of the pollution problem is the replacement of windows
which in many cases could have been kept in place for longer.

Thornton Kay, of reclamation group Salvo, says the government has
created a culture of window replacement by introducing rules that in
effect outlaw the reuse of old windows.

"The problem we've got in the UK is that we are sending about 10
million windows a year to landfill. Maybe half of those are coming
from demolished buildings," Mr Kay says.

"The other half is coming from the window replacement industry and it
seems as though the window replacement industry is trying to educate
people to think that windows are a consumer durable, like a washing
machine.

"Every 10 years, you're just going to get rid of [your PVC windows]
and get new ones. Whereas the [wood] windows that they're replacing
could be a hundred years old, and with a certain amount of repair work
could go on for another hundred years."

Again, the PVC industry denies the environmentalists' claims.

"If you are happy with the design of your window frame, you can leave
it in place for 100 years, without any problem," says

"The point is, some people sometimes want to change because they want
a new design. It isn't up to date any more.

"But it is the case with PVC, it is also the case with aluminium and
it is also the case with wood."

From the BBC website:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4035343.stm

How PC are your PVC windows?
Consequently, wooden window frames have given way to PVC framed double
glazing, which is cheaper to buy and install than double glazed timber
frames.

In fact, wood double glazing can cost up to three times as much as PVC
double glazing.

My wooden windows are the same the house was built with, they are starting
to rot, but are also nearly 70 years old, my neighbours have had three
different sets of double glazed windows in the last twenty years, how can
that be environmentally friendly?

I intend to replace my single glazed wooden frame windows with the same, I
can make them myself and even reuse the glass. Also, the odd draughts that
get around them keep the house ventilated, just as per original design, my
neighbours have had to add air bricks to stop black mould growth in their
house.

mrcheerful

"mrcheerful ." wrote in message
.uk...

In fact, wood double glazing can cost up to three times as much as PVC
double glazing.

My wooden windows are the same the house was built with, they are starting
to rot, but are also nearly 70 years old, my neighbours have had three
different sets of double glazed windows in the last twenty years, how can
that be environmentally friendly?

I intend to replace my single glazed wooden frame windows with the same,

We did, where absolutely necessary. We bought factory sealed double glazed
uits to our measurements and fitted those. Best of both worlds.

The removed glass was re-used to make secondary double glazing for the
leaded lights and in sheds and the like.

Mary

In article , Pete C
wrote:
"The main problem with PVC is that it deteriorates with the action
of ultraviolet light from the sun," says Jeff Howell, building
expert, author and journalist for the Telegraph and the Independent
newspapers in the UK.

And only to think that last week he was an authority on condensing
boilers.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

Pete C wrote:
From the BBC website:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4035343.stm

How PC are your PVC windows?

One of the biggest revolutions in the look of Britain's buildings in
recent years has been in windows.

The British government's efforts to cut energy use in homes has
singled out windows for special attention.

All new and replacement windows now have to be double glazed to cut
heat loss.

Consequently, wooden window frames have given way to PVC framed double
glazing, which is cheaper to buy and install than double glazed timber
frames.

In fact, wood double glazing can cost up to three times as much as PVC
double glazing.

Brittle

Many environmentalists acknowledge that double glazing helps cut
energy use, but they also argue that PVC is a damaging chemical.

"The main problem with PVC is that it deteriorates with the action of
ultraviolet light from the sun," says Jeff Howell, building expert,
author and journalist for the Telegraph and the Independent newspapers
in the UK.

"This apparently causes the chlorine to actually evaporate from the
material and it goes brittle, it goes discoloured, you lean a ladder
up against the window sill and after a few years it becomes so brittle
that it just breaks off."

The claim is refuted by industry officials who insist critics of PVC
simply do not understand the material.

"They don't know what PVC is," says Jean Pierre DeGreve, of the
European Council of Vinyl Manufacturers.

Insulation value

Mr DeGreve argues that PVC is as environmentally friendly as the
alternatives and generates benefits for consumers.

"People prefer PVC because they do not have to maintain the frame of
the window," he says.

Not so, insists Mr Howell.

"People are often sold replacement PVC double glazed windows with the
promise that it is going to save them money in the long run by keeping
in the heat," he says.

"PVC is often sold as being a long-lasting energy saving material, but
it's not. It lasts maybe 20 years."

Moreover, Mr Howell continues, "the frames themselves do not have a
higher insulation value and the glass isn't all that it's cracked up
to be".

Waste

What happens at the end of a PVC window's life is also hotly disputed.

Mr DeGreve argues that PVC is "the polymer which is very easy to
recycle, much easier than other plastics". But environmentalists
refuted the argument, pointing out that in practice very few PVC
window frames are currently recycled in Britain.

Some argue that it simply is not economical to separate the PVC from
the window handles, glass and other parts.

And PVC cannot be sent to incinerators, because it releases dangerous
chemicals if burnt.

Mr DeGreve, however, points out that wood windows may pose
environmental threats too.

"If [consumers] choose wood they need to paint it regularly, and of
course this is not environmentally friendly at all," he says.

"Additionally, at the end of the life of a wooden window frame you
have to do something. You can put it in landfill, but of course you
put the paint in landfill, or you have to incinerate it.

"It means you have to incinerate the paint, which is not productive
for the environment."

Waste mountain

At the heart of the pollution problem is the replacement of windows
which in many cases could have been kept in place for longer.

Thornton Kay, of reclamation group Salvo, says the government has
created a culture of window replacement by introducing rules that in
effect outlaw the reuse of old windows.

"The problem we've got in the UK is that we are sending about 10
million windows a year to landfill. Maybe half of those are coming
from demolished buildings," Mr Kay says.

"The other half is coming from the window replacement industry and it
seems as though the window replacement industry is trying to educate
people to think that windows are a consumer durable, like a washing
machine.

"Every 10 years, you're just going to get rid of [your PVC windows]
and get new ones. Whereas the [wood] windows that they're replacing
could be a hundred years old, and with a certain amount of repair work
could go on for another hundred years."

Again, the PVC industry denies the environmentalists' claims.

"If you are happy with the design of your window frame, you can leave
it in place for 100 years, without any problem," says

"The point is, some people sometimes want to change because they want
a new design. It isn't up to date any more.

"But it is the case with PVC, it is also the case with aluminium and
it is also the case with wood."


--
Grunff

Pete C wrote:
From the BBC website:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4035343.stm

snip Jeff Howell drivel

The man is clearly an idiot. If he isn't IMM, he's a close relative.


--
Grunff

"Pete C" wrote in message
...

From the BBC website:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4035343.stm

How PC are your PVC windows?


Snip

Probably not very, but I'm just about to start replacing all the windows in
a 4 bed house this weekend. The existing windows (as per Bovis build 1984)
are literally falling out. Cheap, fast grown softwood frames plus original
primer, under and top coats peeling off no visible maintenance in 20 years.
I counted only 3 houses with original windows out of at least 50 in the
immediate area, everyone has gone the uPVC route.

By comparison the house I live in has the original mullion and timber framed
windows from 1883 and they are still going strong. I think that is the
problem, 1980's Bovis vs. 1880's shipbuilder. Slight difference in quality
of materials and workmanship.

Maybe modern houseowners aren't to blame?

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 15:49:28 +0000, Pete C
wrote:


From the BBC website:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4035343.stm

How PC are your PVC windows?

-- snip --
All new and replacement windows now have to be double glazed to cut
heat loss.

-- snip --

This is not true. If, for example, the building is in a conservation
area any replacement windows may have to be the same as the originals.
This could make double glazing too expensive.

W

Grunff wrote:

snip Jeff Howell drivel

The man is clearly an idiot. If he isn't IMM, he's a close relative.

Probably true in some cases, but I have some sympathy with him on this
one. Other than cost, I can't see that PVC has any real advantages over
a decent hardwood frame. Many PVC windows seem to get replaced within 20
years as well.


--
Cheers,

John.

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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:
Grunff wrote:

snip Jeff Howell drivel

The man is clearly an idiot. If he isn't IMM, he's a close relative.


Probably true in some cases, but I have some sympathy with him on this
one. Other than cost, I can't see that PVC has any real advantages over
a decent hardwood frame. Many PVC windows seem to get replaced within 20
years as well.


We have uPVC, which replaced the softwood windows that were originally
installed when the house was built in the '30s.

The reasons we went for uPVC are the zero-maintenance factor and the
fact that they fitted in well with our black/white house. Also, they
were a fraction of the price of *decent* hardwood frames.


--
Grunff

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
Probably true in some cases, but I have some sympathy with him on
this one. Other than cost, I can't see that PVC has any real
advantages over a decent hardwood frame. Many PVC windows seem to
get replaced within 20 years as well.

But this may be as much cultural as anything else: you now replace
things because you want a fresh look or something different, not
because the old is worn out.

I wonder if Mr Howell lectures customers who want perfectly good
kitchens ripped out and replaced in similar vein?

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

Grunff wrote:

We have uPVC, which replaced the softwood windows that were originally
installed when the house was built in the '30s.

The reasons we went for uPVC are the zero-maintenance factor and the
fact that they fitted in well with our black/white house. Also, they
were a fraction of the price of *decent* hardwood frames.

Yup, wood frames are more expensive. When I costed the three windows I
needed for my loft conversion, woodgrain effect PVC worked out about a
third of the cost of hardwood that would have matched the rest of the
house. In the end I figured that they were far enough away to not look
too objectionable, so in spite of my preference for wood, that is what I
went for.


--
Cheers,

John.

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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Tony Bryer wrote:

But this may be as much cultural as anything else: you now replace
things because you want a fresh look or something different, not
because the old is worn out.

True. Quite often, people I know, have ended up replacing windows in
cases where there was nothing wrong with the windows as such. Often
there were other things like some of the sealed units had failed, or
some of the original fittings or hinges had broken, and it was no longer
possible to get replacements that worked in quite the same way.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...

I wonder if Mr Howell lectures customers who want perfectly good
kitchens ripped out and replaced in similar vein?

I do ... in my head.

Mary

"Pete C" wrote in message
...

From the BBC website:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4035343.stm

How PC are your PVC windows?

snip

"The main problem with PVC is that it deteriorates with the action of
ultraviolet light from the sun," says Jeff Howell, building expert,
author and journalist for the Telegraph and the Independent newspapers
in the UK.
snip

Has he never heard of uPVC ?....

mrcheerful . wrote:

I intend to replace my single glazed wooden frame windows with the same, I
can make them myself and even reuse the glass. Also, the odd draughts that
get around them keep the house ventilated, just as per original design, my
neighbours have had to add air bricks to stop black mould growth in their
house.

Is one (officially) allowed to do that?

--
Chris Green

Steve Jones wrote:
"The main problem with PVC is that it deteriorates with the action of
ultraviolet light from the sun," says Jeff Howell, building expert,
author and journalist for the Telegraph and the Independent newspapers
in the UK.
"This apparently causes the chlorine to actually evaporate from the
material and it goes brittle, it goes discoloured, you lean a ladder
up against the window sill and after a few years it becomes so brittle
that it just breaks off."


Has anyone had uPVC frames or soffits/fascias go brittle? If so how long
did this take?

Steve

uPVC soffits and facias will go brittle in cold weather, but then when
it gets warmer, they will be as they were when new.
Now then I only work for a company that does this kind of work, so I
don't really know what I am talking about. :-)

cheers

wrote:

I intend to replace my single glazed wooden frame windows with the same, I
can make them myself and even reuse the glass. Also, the odd draughts that
get around them keep the house ventilated, just as per original design, my
neighbours have had to add air bricks to stop black mould growth in their
house.


Is one (officially) allowed to do that?

You are allowed to repair existing windows without coming under the
regs. So if you keep the glass you could argue you were just replacing
some of the wood! ;-)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

As you can see the BBC have elected a new champion for "something".
Very similar to John what-ever-his-name is the BBC's Rail Champ who did
absolutely nothing except propose silly ideas and confirm his own
incompetence.

CM.

"Bob H" wrote in message
...
snip
[ re uPVC windows ]
Now then I only work for a company that does this kind of work, so I
don't really know what I am talking about. :-)


Some don't....