Hi all. I am after some advice please. We plan to replace our heating system
in a major house refurb next year. We are not in a mains gas area, currently
we have an uninsulated house with very expensive LPG heating. I am looking
at maybe using wood pellet heating, but these boilers are large and require
a big store of pellets to be quite adjacent. We plan to have a garage sited
5m from the main house so if we put the boiler in the garage we would be
running approx 7m to the house with 5m under exposed ground. Does anyone
have any idea of heat loss to expect from this? In the US boiler houses are
quite common I believe but in the UK boilers seem to only be sited in the
main body of the house.

We plan to clad the house which has solid 10"walls (approx 100 years old)
with EZClad insulated brick slip system to ground floor top of window height
and then insulated battened vertical tiles to the roof. We will also be
insulating the roof and double glazing all windows, after which I calculate
we will need a 20KW boiler system. We will also be adding a small celcon
extension. Has anyone any experience of I-Beam TJI floor joist systems too?
We think they may be the best solution for the 1st floor floors with celcon
floors for the ground floor. really we are almost rebuilding the house!

Look forward to any comments.

Steve

We are not in a mains gas area, currently we have an uninsulated house
with very expensive LPG heating. I am looking at maybe using wood pellet
heating,

Is there a reason you haven't considered oil? It is typically what is used
when mains gas is not available.

Christian.

P.S. Keep the LPG system as well, for the cooker.

"Steve Smith" wrote in message
...

In the US boiler houses are
quite common I believe but in the UK
boilers seem to only be sited in the
main body of the house.

That is because we are all rammed inside very small houses.

We plan to clad the house which has
solid 10"walls (approx 100 years old)
with EZClad insulated brick slip system
to ground floor top of window height
and then insulated battened vertical tiles
to the roof.

This house needs as much insulation as possible.
Have Kingspan isnulation between teh batons and insulated tiles over.

We will also be
insulating the roof

Minimum 300mm of Rockwool. Also make sure all the cracks are sealed in the
house. That includes and pipes and cables that enter the loft.

and double glazing all
windows, after which I calculate
we will need a 20KW boiler system. We
will also be adding a small celcon
extension.

Make sure this is super insulated, so you don't need heating in the
extension. The extension may reduce heat loss in the main building overall
too.

Has anyone any experience of I-Beam
TJI floor joist systems too?

They are the buiness. They are becoming the norm now as the main developers
are using them

We think they may be the best
solution for the 1st floor floors with celcon
floors for the ground floor. really we are
almost rebuilding the house!

Is the ground floor solid? If so dig down at the side of the external walls
about 1 metre and install Jablite insulation against the foundations up to
ground level. This greatly reduces thermal bridging to the cold earth around
the sides of the house.

Concentrate on the insulation, thermal bridging and air-tightness. Get the
fuel usage down and then running an LPG boiler will not be so expensive.
The money spent on a wood stove could be used to greater effect elsewhere in
the house to reduce heat loss. Also insulation keeps a house cool in
summer.

IMM wrote:

Concentrate on the insulation, thermal bridging and air-tightness. Get the
fuel usage down and then running an LPG boiler will not be so expensive.
The money spent on a wood stove could be used to greater effect elsewhere in
the house to reduce heat loss. Also insulation keeps a house cool in
summer.


I actually agree wih this.

so far having sorted all teh little draughts out, the hose is running
entirely of an aga for heating and an open fire, plus wasted heat from
electrical stuff, and its not small (the house).

However I think that given the oil situation, a wood burning furnace
migt not be a bad idea.

If oil becomes temporarily unobtainable, I can just about keep going
with wood stoves and open fires, and the trusty chainsaw.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

Concentrate on the insulation, thermal bridging and air-tightness. Get
the
fuel usage down and then running an LPG boiler will not be so expensive.
The money spent on a wood stove could be used to greater effect
elsewhere in
the house to reduce heat loss. Also insulation keeps a house cool in
summer.


I actually agree wih this.

so far having sorted all teh little draughts out, the hose is running
entirely of an aga for heating and an open fire, plus wasted heat from
electrical stuff, and its not small (the house).

However I think that given the oil situation, a wood burning furnace
migt not be a bad idea.

If oil becomes temporarily unobtainable, I can just about keep going
with wood stoves and open fires, and the trusty chainsaw.

A wood fired, steam powered, chainshaw I trust, in the temporary absence of
oil?

;-

Andy

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:34:38 +0100, Andy McKenzie wrote:

A wood fired, steam powered, chainshaw I trust, in the temporary
absence of oil?

No a cordless one and a bicycle generator...

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.com...
On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:34:38 +0100, Andy McKenzie wrote:

A wood fired, steam powered, chainshaw I trust, in the temporary
absence of oil?

No a cordless one and a bicycle generator...

Wow - you can get a machine that generates bicycles? Where can I get
one?

Andy McKenzie wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

IMM wrote:


Concentrate on the insulation, thermal bridging and air-tightness. Get

the

fuel usage down and then running an LPG boiler will not be so expensive.
The money spent on a wood stove could be used to greater effect

elsewhere in

the house to reduce heat loss. Also insulation keeps a house cool in
summer.


I actually agree wih this.

so far having sorted all teh little draughts out, the hose is running
entirely of an aga for heating and an open fire, plus wasted heat from
electrical stuff, and its not small (the house).

However I think that given the oil situation, a wood burning furnace
migt not be a bad idea.

If oil becomes temporarily unobtainable, I can just about keep going
with wood stoves and open fires, and the trusty chainsaw.


A wood fired, steam powered, chainshaw I trust, in the temporary absence of
oil?

Nah, keep a few cans of petrol to tide me over tight spots...

;-

Andy

Neil Jones wrote:

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.com...

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:34:38 +0100, Andy McKenzie wrote:


A wood fired, steam powered, chainshaw I trust, in the temporary
absence of oil?

No a cordless one and a bicycle generator...


Wow - you can get a machine that generates bicycles? Where can I get
one?


its called Cambridge Student Population.

Come on over and pick one up.

Everyone else does.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Neil Jones wrote:

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.com...

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:34:38 +0100, Andy McKenzie wrote:


A wood fired, steam powered, chainshaw I trust, in the temporary
absence of oil?

No a cordless one and a bicycle generator...


Wow - you can get a machine that generates bicycles? Where can I get
one?


its called Cambridge Student Population.

Come on over and pick one up.

Do you mean the snots seal bicycles? Typical, they steal everything else.

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...



its called Cambridge Student Population.

Come on over and pick one up.

Do you mean the snots seal bicycles? Typical, they steal everything
else.

That's why they're called tab *******s.

"Steve Smith" wrote in message ...
Hi all. I am after some advice please. We plan to replace our heating system
in a major house refurb next year. We are not in a mains gas area, currently
we have an uninsulated house with very expensive LPG heating. I am looking
at maybe using wood pellet heating, but these boilers are large and require
a big store of pellets to be quite adjacent. We plan to have a garage sited
5m from the main house so if we put the boiler in the garage we would be
running approx 7m to the house with 5m under exposed ground. Does anyone
have any idea of heat loss to expect from this? In the US boiler houses are
quite common I believe but in the UK boilers seem to only be sited in the
main body of the house.

We plan to clad the house which has solid 10"walls (approx 100 years old)
with EZClad insulated brick slip system to ground floor top of window height
and then insulated battened vertical tiles to the roof. We will also be
insulating the roof and double glazing all windows, after which I calculate
we will need a 20KW boiler system. We will also be adding a small celcon
extension. Has anyone any experience of I-Beam TJI floor joist systems too?
We think they may be the best solution for the 1st floor floors with celcon
floors for the ground floor. really we are almost rebuilding the house!

Look forward to any comments.

Steve


Insulating has been mentioned.

Re double glazing I presume sure youre aware of the question mark over
them ever paying their cost back in savings.

Draughtproofing I dont much like myself, health comes first for me.


But there is one trick that might interest you. It is not difficult to
make a wood powered heater that delivers hot air into some open or
communal area in the house. It is basically just a brick built closed
furnace attached to the back of the house (or wherever), with a basic
metal heat exchanger, big enough that it will take 4' or 6' logs. This
would burn wood, greatly reducing the lpg bill, but without the cost
of buying a wood pellet burner.

The size means most waste wood can just be dropped in whole: tree
trunk sections, pallets, whatever.

If you build it so its partially inside the house, you can add metal
cooking plates to it and you have an aga type arrangement.

Another plus with long logs is that you can burn them at one end, and
the fire will move along the wood over time, giving you a long burn
time.

NT

Neil Jones wrote:

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...



its called Cambridge Student Population.

Come on over and pick one up.

Do you mean the snots seal bicycles? Typical, they steal everything

else.

That's why they're called tab *******s.


Its teh non university students who nick them. The old tech college -
sorry 'university of East Anglia'
etc.

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Steve Smith" wrote in message
...

In the US boiler houses are
quite common I believe but in the UK
boilers seem to only be sited in the
main body of the house.

That is because we are all rammed inside very small houses.

We plan to clad the house which has
solid 10"walls (approx 100 years old)
with EZClad insulated brick slip system
to ground floor top of window height
and then insulated battened vertical tiles
to the roof.

This house needs as much insulation as possible.
Have Kingspan isnulation between teh batons and insulated tiles over.

We will also be
insulating the roof

Minimum 300mm of Rockwool. Also make sure all the cracks are sealed in
the
house. That includes and pipes and cables that enter the loft.

and double glazing all
windows, after which I calculate
we will need a 20KW boiler system. We
will also be adding a small celcon
extension.

Make sure this is super insulated, so you don't need heating in the
extension. The extension may reduce heat loss in the main building
overall
too.

Has anyone any experience of I-Beam
TJI floor joist systems too?

They are the buiness. They are becoming the norm now as the main
developers
are using them

We think they may be the best
solution for the 1st floor floors with celcon
floors for the ground floor. really we are
almost rebuilding the house!

Is the ground floor solid? If so dig down at the side of the external
walls
about 1 metre and install Jablite insulation against the foundations up to
ground level. This greatly reduces thermal bridging to the cold earth
around
the sides of the house.

Concentrate on the insulation, thermal bridging and air-tightness. Get
the
fuel usage down and then running an LPG boiler will not be so expensive.
The money spent on a wood stove could be used to greater effect elsewhere
in
the house to reduce heat loss. Also insulation keeps a house cool in
summer.



Thanks for that, and thanks to everyone who answered. It does seem that the
key is insulation, insulation, insulation!
I have been looking at the Knauf product line, they do polyfoam boards or
rockwool based boards for thermal insulation under vertical tiling, seems to
be the biz.
Update on wood pellet systems shows that as we are in a Smoke Control Area,
only one boiler would be ok to install, www.uksmokecontrolareas.co.uk, so
that seems to be a no. The other green option is a ground source heat pump
system, as we will be excavating anyway this may be a good idea.
Cheers,
Steve

"Steve Smith" wrote in message ...

Update on wood pellet systems shows that as we are in a Smoke Control Area,
only one boiler would be ok to install, www.uksmokecontrolareas.co.uk, so
that seems to be a no. The other green option is a ground source heat pump
system, as we will be excavating anyway this may be a good idea.
Cheers,
Steve

if youre excavating be sure to put an earth pipe in! Costs peanuts and
gives you very low energy use a/c all summer

NT

"Steve Smith" wrote in message
...
"IMM" wrote in message
...

"Steve Smith" wrote in message
...

In the US boiler houses are
quite common I believe but in the UK
boilers seem to only be sited in the
main body of the house.

That is because we are all rammed inside very small houses.

We plan to clad the house which has
solid 10"walls (approx 100 years old)
with EZClad insulated brick slip system
to ground floor top of window height
and then insulated battened vertical tiles
to the roof.

This house needs as much insulation as possible.
Have Kingspan isnulation between teh batons and insulated tiles over.

We will also be
insulating the roof

Minimum 300mm of Rockwool. Also make sure all the cracks are sealed in
the
house. That includes and pipes and cables that enter the loft.

and double glazing all
windows, after which I calculate
we will need a 20KW boiler system. We
will also be adding a small celcon
extension.

Make sure this is super insulated, so you don't need heating in the
extension. The extension may reduce heat loss in the main building
overall
too.

Has anyone any experience of I-Beam
TJI floor joist systems too?

They are the buiness. They are becoming the norm now as the main
developers
are using them

We think they may be the best
solution for the 1st floor floors with celcon
floors for the ground floor. really we are
almost rebuilding the house!

Is the ground floor solid? If so dig down at the side of the external
walls
about 1 metre and install Jablite insulation against the foundations up
to
ground level. This greatly reduces thermal bridging to the cold earth
around
the sides of the house.

Concentrate on the insulation, thermal bridging and air-tightness. Get
the
fuel usage down and then running an LPG boiler will not be so expensive.
The money spent on a wood stove could be used to greater effect
elsewhere
in
the house to reduce heat loss. Also insulation keeps a house cool in
summer.



Thanks for that, and thanks to everyone who answered. It does seem that
the
key is insulation, insulation, insulation!
I have been looking at the Knauf product line, they do polyfoam boards or
rockwool based boards for thermal insulation under vertical tiling, seems
to
be the biz.
Update on wood pellet systems shows that as we are in a Smoke Control
Area,
only one boiler would be ok to install, www.uksmokecontrolareas.co.uk, so
that seems to be a no. The other green option is a ground source heat pump
system, as we will be excavating anyway this may be a good idea.
Cheers,
Steve

Heat pumps are very expensive. to install. The running cost is approx the
same as a gas condensing boiler. In summer they may not raise enough heat
for DHW purposes meaning you will have to supplement with an immersion
heater.

Yes insulation, insulation and air-tightness is the key. Spend most of your
money on that.

On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 19:48:54 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

that seems to be a no. The other green option is a ground source heat pump
system, as we will be excavating anyway this may be a good idea.

Heat pumps are very expensive. to install. The running cost is approx the
same as a gas condensing boiler.

Yes, for natural gas. If the OP had natural gas I doubt they'd be on
LPG and considering a wood pellet boiler...

Could worth putting in a ground loop for future use if excavation is
being done, in a few years they may reach a more attractive price
point, and/or CO2 heat pumps may be able to run rads and DHW,

cheers,
Pete.

(N. Thornton) wrote in message . com...
"Steve Smith" wrote in message ...
Hi all. I am after some advice please. We plan to replace our heating system
in a major house refurb next year. We are not in a mains gas area, currently
we have an uninsulated house with very expensive LPG heating. I am looking
at maybe using wood pellet heating, but these boilers are large and require
a big store of pellets to be quite adjacent. We plan to have a garage sited
5m from the main house so if we put the boiler in the garage we would be
running approx 7m to the house with 5m under exposed ground. Does anyone
have any idea of heat loss to expect from this? In the US boiler houses are
quite common I believe but in the UK boilers seem to only be sited in the
main body of the house.

We plan to clad the house which has solid 10"walls (approx 100 years old)
with EZClad insulated brick slip system to ground floor top of window height
and then insulated battened vertical tiles to the roof. We will also be
insulating the roof and double glazing all windows, after which I calculate
we will need a 20KW boiler system. We will also be adding a small celcon
extension. Has anyone any experience of I-Beam TJI floor joist systems too?
We think they may be the best solution for the 1st floor floors with celcon
floors for the ground floor. really we are almost rebuilding the house!

Look forward to any comments.

Steve


Insulating has been mentioned.

Re double glazing I presume sure youre aware of the question mark over
them ever paying their cost back in savings.

Draughtproofing I dont much like myself, health comes first for me.


But there is one trick that might interest you. It is not difficult to
make a wood powered heater that delivers hot air into some open or
communal area in the house. It is basically just a brick built closed
furnace attached to the back of the house (or wherever), with a basic
metal heat exchanger, big enough that it will take 4' or 6' logs. This
would burn wood, greatly reducing the lpg bill, but without the cost
of buying a wood pellet burner.

The size means most waste wood can just be dropped in whole: tree
trunk sections, pallets, whatever.

If you build it so its partially inside the house, you can add metal
cooking plates to it and you have an aga type arrangement.

Another plus with long logs is that you can burn them at one end, and
the fire will move along the wood over time, giving you a long burn
time.

NT

This is a nice idea and I'm sure in some circumstances it would work,
but getting wood for burning is now beginning to become less easy with
the general encouragement for woodlands to be left uncleared to allow
nature to do the recycling. The other factor is that wood burning
does require a lot more effort in total - collecting, storage,
cutting, drying, stove loading, ash removing, etc.

I can sympathise with the wood chips idea. As for running the heatng
pipes under the ground I can only suggest that this is doe in a lot of
industrial situations and just requires a lot of insulation. I would
have thought a brick lined channel would be the solution.

Rob

(Rob Graham) wrote in message . com...
(N. Thornton) wrote in message . com...

But there is one trick that might interest you. It is not difficult to
make a wood powered heater that delivers hot air into some open or
communal area in the house. It is basically just a brick built closed
furnace attached to the back of the house (or wherever), with a basic
metal heat exchanger, big enough that it will take 4' or 6' logs. This
would burn wood, greatly reducing the lpg bill, but without the cost
of buying a wood pellet burner.

The size means most waste wood can just be dropped in whole: tree
trunk sections, pallets, whatever.

If you build it so its partially inside the house, you can add metal
cooking plates to it and you have an aga type arrangement.

Another plus with long logs is that you can burn them at one end, and
the fire will move along the wood over time, giving you a long burn
time.

NT


This is a nice idea and I'm sure in some circumstances it would work,
but getting wood for burning is now beginning to become less easy with
the general encouragement for woodlands to be left uncleared to allow
nature to do the recycling. The other factor is that wood burning
does require a lot more effort in total - collecting, storage,
cutting, drying, stove loading, ash removing, etc.

It does, thats its main problem. At least some of those can be reduced
or eliminated with sensible design. One can stop and have a word with
any rip-out projects, telling them youll take all their scrap wood
free if they give you a call and come dump it, it saves them the
dumping costs. Also a word with places that produce lots of wood
offcuts. These can give you free wood, and sometimes will deliver it
for you.

Storage hassle can be minimised by dumping the wood in an enclosure
rather than stacking it.

Drying happens by itself in a covered enclosure next to the furnace.

Cutting is eliminated with a large stove that will take pieces upto
whatever your size limit is, 4', 6', 8'. No need to cut also means
that nails in scrap wood are a non issue.

Stove loading: yep, you got to do that each day.

Ash removal, thats nedeed but the frequency drops with a large
capacity stove.

So I agree its a pain compared to gas, but it will suit a minority of
folk, and is basically free heat. It is more interesting for bigger
blocks of flats where the money saving adds up to enough to pay
someone for a small amount of time to run the system.

A lot of energy in the form of wood is going to waste at tips, it
could be used to heat large complexes.


NT

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Neil Jones wrote:

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...



its called Cambridge Student Population.

Come on over and pick one up.

Do you mean the snots seal bicycles? Typical, they steal everything

else.

That's why they're called tab *******s.


Its teh non university students who nick them.
The old tech college -
sorry 'university of East Anglia'
etc.

Oh snotness of it! The petty snobbery is all too apparent. The snots do the
nicking.

"N. Thornton" wrote in message
om...
"Steve Smith" wrote in message
...

Update on wood pellet systems shows that as we are in a Smoke Control
Area,
only one boiler would be ok to install, www.uksmokecontrolareas.co.uk,
so
that seems to be a no. The other green option is a ground source heat
pump
system, as we will be excavating anyway this may be a good idea.
Cheers,
Steve

if youre excavating be sure to put an earth pipe in! Costs peanuts and
gives you very low energy use a/c all summer

Excellent suggestion.

"Pete C" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 19:48:54 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

that seems to be a no. The other green option is a ground source heat
pump
system, as we will be excavating anyway this may be a good idea.

Heat pumps are very expensive. to install. The running cost is approx
the
same as a gas condensing boiler.

Yes, for natural gas. If the OP had natural gas I doubt they'd be on
LPG and considering a wood pellet boiler...

An oil boiler is still far cheaper to install and an not that more expensive
than a heat pump to run.

Could worth putting in a ground loop for future use if excavation is
being done, in a few years they may reach a more attractive price
point, and/or CO2 heat pumps may be able to run rads and DHW,

Good point.