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On 13 Oct 2004 Ian Stirling wrote:
Steve Firth wrote: Michael Chare wrote: I can't see how someone managed to install the rack without electrocuting themself. If the drill bit just hit the live wire you might not get a shock because a) Quite likely holding onto plastics parts of drill b) Possibly not touching any other earthed item. Birds sit on live wires everyday without ill effect! Yes, then you have a screw to get into place while holding onto the metal rack. How does that work? Last screw, with it sitting on the bit of the screwdriver held in aforementioned insulared drill? Or plastic wall plug, screw a bit too long, only touches the wire on the last turn or two by which time you're only holding the insulated handle of the screwdriver. Still, you'd think the installer would give the rack a bit of a tug just to make sure it was firmly fixed. -- Richard Porter Mail to username ricp at domain minijem.plus.com "You can't have Windows without pains." |
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Richard Porter wrote: Still, you'd think the installer would give the rack a bit of a tug just to make sure it was firmly fixed. Heh heh. But didn't it say it was movement of the screw which had frayed through the insulation?. Of course, anyone with sense would have moved the rack a half inch so the screw touched the neutral... -- *Don't use no double negatives * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
"Bill" wrote in message
... In message , Steve Firth writes If the installer was Ms Tonge herself then the error may perhaps be understandable. OTOH I can't see how someone managed to install the rack without electrocuting themself. Last year I helped a friend replace her kitchen cupboards. When we took down one of them there was a neatly drilled hole in the plaster behind it with no rawl plug in it but with some very nice and quite artistic black scorch lines radiating from it for about 1/2" all around and a pencilled note saying "do not use"! It must have been interesting to observe! It was also directly above a 13A twin outlet that was still in use, after digging a hole in the plaster it was clear that the live had been neatly cut. The circuit had been used for years with a break in the live side. Oh and there were only wired fuses in a very overloaded and similarly blackened CU which has now been replaced with a new split load one. This thing of the cable not going vertical to the socket/appliance caught me out once. I was fitting shelves in the my kitcen about 18 inches to the left of the cooker switch/single socket. I too made the assumption that the cable would run down vertical after having removed the switch cover to verify the cable went straight up. Nope I drilled through the 32A (?) cooker feed blowing both the consumer unit fuse and electricity board 60A fuse !!!! (oh and ruining my nice new 6mm drill bit). After power was restored later that evening (didn't get charged as wrong rated fuse had been fitted, so not my fault (?)) cut holes in plaster board to reveal a nice loop of cable curving gracefully behind the plaster board down to the switch. Why it didn't just go straight down, rather than go straight past the vertical then curve back to the switch I will never know, probably because someone couldn't be bothered to pull the excess cable out. |
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Ian Middleton wrote: After power was restored later that evening (didn't get charged as wrong rated fuse had been fitted, so not my fault (?)) cut holes in plaster board to reveal a nice loop of cable curving gracefully behind the plaster board down to the switch. Why it didn't just go straight down, rather than go straight past the vertical then curve back to the switch I will never know, probably because someone couldn't be bothered to pull the excess cable out. You must have been using some force to drill plasterboard if you manage to drill through a loose cable behind it? -- *How come you never hear about gruntled employees? * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Bill wrote in message ...
In message , Steve Firth writes If the installer was Ms Tonge herself then the error may perhaps be understandable. OTOH I can't see how someone managed to install the rack without electrocuting themself. From all I've read here it looks to me like an accident that no sensible regulation or practice change could be expected to avoid. Why do I say that? Nothing is 100% safe, not one thing in this world. Our job is to use the limietd resources we've got to reduce risks as much as poss, that means reducing the bigger ones. To put any measure in place that would have prevented this would cost so much that many more lives would be lost in other areas where oney was not spent on risk reduction. It would not be cost effective, more lives would be lost than saved. Same as with bathroom equipotential bonding, same problem. Whoever came up with that one does not seems to grasp this. At some time we have to bite the bullet of reality: we can not make the world totally safe. It cant be done. And trying to will make us all poorer, and lses resources to implement improvements will result in more deaths not less. The one realistic thing that would have made the difference was if the family had enough brain cells between them to realise that if they were getting shocks off the rack that it was a danger and should have been removed, with power off. If they cant look after themselves on such an obvious and basic level... not much we can do to help them. Very sad, but unfortunately theres no way to wish deaths away, and no way to stop a moron finding ways to endanger themselves. NT |
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , Ian Middleton wrote: After power was restored later that evening (didn't get charged as wrong rated fuse had been fitted, so not my fault (?)) cut holes in plaster board to reveal a nice loop of cable curving gracefully behind the plaster board down to the switch. Why it didn't just go straight down, rather than go straight past the vertical then curve back to the switch I will never know, probably because someone couldn't be bothered to pull the excess cable out. You must have been using some force to drill plasterboard if you manage to drill through a loose cable behind it? Nope, drill (new masonary bit I think) just cut through the plaster board and straight square onto the cable bang (a loud bang in fact) inbetween the live and neutral, cutting the central earth wire. I think the cable was held nicely in place (for me to drill through it) by large amounts of dot and daub plaster as well. |
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N. Thornton wrote: From all I've read here it looks to me like an accident that no sensible regulation or practice change could be expected to avoid. Why do I say that? Nothing is 100% safe, not one thing in this world. Two immediate examples similar to this come to mind. A friend installed a picture hook on a drylined wall in the toilet and the tip of the pin (20mm long) pierced the water pipe, producing a slow, expensive, leak over the next few weeks. The neighbours next door had a very expensive kitchen fitted (the construction and electrical installation was crap) but the fitters managed to puncture the water pipe under the wooden floor. It took 2 years for the problems to seriously show and required most of the ground floor to be replaced! These piercing events are very common and fortunately normally not fatal. At the end of the day, it just depends upon whether your luck has run out. Sadly in Ms Tonge's case, it had. Regards Capitol |
In message , IMM writes
"Neil Jones" wrote in message ... Tony Bryer wrote: In article , Andy Hall wrote: Now where was John Redwood's number??........ It was probably John Redwood or one of his chums who first introduced the compulsory CORGI membership if working on gas for gain. Check out http://www.house-builder.co.uk/artic...em.php?id=1390 Didn't see anything about CORGI in there The Queen has Corgi's. No, she has Corgis go and read http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/ and learn some correct English -- geoff |
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes Darwin must love DIYers. Hmm. Have you evidence this was caused by DIY? Most wouldn't rest after such an incident and get it fixed. Not so many so called pros - especially kitchen fitters who seem to be on piece rate. It's not their problem after they leave - especially if things still 'work'. Hi Dave, a very good point. Thinking about it I was probably a bit biased having seen some of the definite DIY that had been done there. As you say more likely a "Pro". My apologies. -- Bill |
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Ian Middleton wrote: You must have been using some force to drill plasterboard if you manage to drill through a loose cable behind it? Nope, drill (new masonary bit I think) just cut through the plaster board and straight square onto the cable bang (a loud bang in fact) inbetween the live and neutral, cutting the central earth wire. I think the cable was held nicely in place (for me to drill through it) by large amounts of dot and daub plaster as well. Right. If it had been loose, I'd have thought the bit would have pushed it out of the way. FWIW, I always use an HSS drill for plasterboard. Don't think you need a masonry one. And little pressure at a slow speed. Never quite sure what lurks behind. ;-) -- *Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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Bill wrote: Darwin must love DIYers. Hmm. Have you evidence this was caused by DIY? Most wouldn't rest after such an incident and get it fixed. Not so many so called pros - especially kitchen fitters who seem to be on piece rate. It's not their problem after they leave - especially if things still 'work'. Hi Dave, a very good point. Thinking about it I was probably a bit biased having seen some of the definite DIY that had been done there. Right. Of course it could be either. But it's a bit like gas work. Most DIYers, I'd say, would not touch gas if they didn't think they were capable. After all, they're the ones who will suffer. Cowboys don't care who suffers - unless it's them. As you say more likely a "Pro". My apologies. Heh heh. You never need to apologise on here for expressing an opinion or making a valid comment. If you did, you'd double the bandwidth... -- *Organized Crime Is Alive And Well; It's Called Auto Insurance. * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 18:27:18 +0100, Richard Porter
wrote: When I had my Bridges drill with an earthed, die-cast case it could be guaranteed to blow the fuse if I touched a live wire with the drill bit. There's a Metabo with built-in voltage sensing that shuts the drill off if it finds a buried live cable. -- Smert' spamionam |
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 19:40:52 +0100, "G&M"
wrote: I doubt there are many forms of protection that would stop a 5kG SDS either. Protection isn't meant to protect (that's an unrealistic expectation) - it's meant to warn you that you've hit it. |
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On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 00:02:23 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Right. If it had been loose, I'd have thought the bit would have pushed it out of the way. Not 10mm2, that has quite a large flat face and isn't very flexable as I'm sure you are aware. Catch it on the face rather than the rounded edge and you'll drill it... FWIW, I always use an HSS drill for plasterboard. I like to keep my HSS drills sharp... Maybe I ought to invest in a =A32.99 set of market stall speacials for PB use. Through I think Pauls = suggestion of lip and spur might be better, masonary and HSS will tend to tear any covering, hopefully the spur would cut it. -- Cheers Dave. pam is missing e-mail |
In article ,
Paul Mc Cann wrote: FWIW, I always use an HSS drill for plasterboard. Don't think you need a masonry one. And little pressure at a slow speed. Never quite sure what lurks behind. ;-) Prefer a lip and spur myself. What dat? -- *Can vegetarians eat animal crackers? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 23:31:49 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Prefer a lip and spur myself. What dat? Otherwise known as "brad point" in the Screwfix book: http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...97474&id=61195 Just the job for plasterboard... useful for an order top up for free P&P. B-) -- Cheers Dave. pam is missing e-mail |
On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 00:46:31 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote: Otherwise known as "brad point" in the Screwfix book: http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...97474&id=61195 From the sf web site: "5 Piece Set. Chrome Vanadium with centre points and spurs." This is a tool for cowboys, right? ;) Andrew |
On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 07:58:18 +0100, Andrew McKay wrote:
This is a tool for cowboys, right? ;) Ones that like nice neat holes in wood. They do make a much better edged hole than an HSS drill. -- Cheers Dave. pam is missing e-mail |
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote
| Of course, anyone with sense would have moved the rack a half inch | so the screw touched the neutral... Huh. Reverse the connections at the consumer unit ... Owain |
"Owain" wrote in message . .. "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote | Of course, anyone with sense would have moved the rack a half inch | so the screw touched the neutral... Huh. Reverse the connections at the consumer unit ... Heh don't laugh about it, I know of one case were an electric board did just that (well they reversed two of the phases actually) after installing a new transformer at a local sub-station on a industrial est. - come Monday morning all hell broke loose at an engineering machine shop... |
In article om,
Dave Liquorice wrote: Ones that like nice neat holes in wood. They do make a much better edged hole than an HSS drill. I'm not sure just how often I need a neat hole in plasterboard? And do they do them in the sizes suitable for the various fixings? Sharpening the size of HSS drills used for those fixings is easy enough - it's only small ones I can't do. -- *The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Capitol wrote in message ...
N. Thornton wrote: From all I've read here it looks to me like an accident that no sensible regulation or practice change could be expected to avoid. Why do I say that? Nothing is 100% safe, not one thing in this world. You may be interested in the pix on this website, where a curtain rail fitting was screwed through 3 cable cappings, lady complained that the lights went off when she closed the curtains www.bobjames.co.uk/Photos.htm Regards Bob |
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On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 21:01:41 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
I'm not sure just how often I need a neat hole in plasterboard? The tighter the fixing the better, within limits... I find hole size is pretty critcal with PB. And do they do them in the sizes suitable for the various fixings? That =A32.99 Screwfix set is 4 5 6 8 and 10mm. I expect you can get larger if required. -- Cheers Dave. pam is missing e-mail |
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