2.5 litre/min from new 9.5Kw electric shower- problem?
 

Just installed a new Triton T300si (one of those with a remote heating
pack).

Its delivering barely over 2.5l/min on half heat setting = just about warm
enough for a shower. Pathetic by any measure.

Its a replacement for an old knackered 8.5Kw... but the one delivered
approximately TWICE the flow rate (certainly comfortable) at the same
temperature setting.

There is NO problem with the plumbing or water pressure on the input (with
the mains pressure at full the water is almost exploding out the taps in the
same bathroom)

Could anything else be up? wiring???? Or is it really just that crap?
(flow/temp charts in manual seem to show much better performance but its
difficult to get an exact measure of output temperature to be sure)

thanks in advance.

"David Williams" wrote in message
...
Just installed a new Triton T300si (one of those with a remote heating
pack).

Its delivering barely over 2.5l/min on half heat setting = just about warm
enough for a shower. Pathetic by any measure.

Its a replacement for an old knackered 8.5Kw... but the one delivered
approximately TWICE the flow rate (certainly comfortable) at the same
temperature setting.

There is NO problem with the plumbing or water pressure on the input (with
the mains pressure at full the water is almost exploding out the taps in
the
same bathroom)

Could anything else be up? wiring???? Or is it really just that crap?
(flow/temp charts in manual seem to show much better performance but its
difficult to get an exact measure of output temperature to be sure)

thanks in advance.



is the input temp very cold?

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 22:16:01 +0100, "David Williams"
wrote:

Just installed a new Triton T300si (one of those with a remote heating
pack).

Its delivering barely over 2.5l/min on half heat setting = just about warm
enough for a shower. Pathetic by any measure.

Hi,

What can it do on full heat setting?

cheers,
Pete.

David Williams wrote:
Just installed a new Triton T300si (one of those with a remote heating
pack).

Its delivering barely over 2.5l/min on half heat setting = just about warm
enough for a shower. Pathetic by any measure.

It takes 4100 Joules to raise 1 l of water 1C.
To raise 1l 20C takes 4100*20, or 82KJ.
82KJ/9.5Kw = about 9 seconds a liter, or 7l/min.

This is raising 20C, if you're going from 10C to 50C, it'll be 3.5l/min.
To hit 2.5l/min, you need to be raising the water temp 60C or so.
Unlikely.
Sounds like something is wrong.

Can you measure if it's using the right amount of electricity?

Gentleman-

The input cold water supply is about 13C
At full heat (around 43C on the same thermo) it produces about 2.25litre/min

The 2.25 figure seems to be about half what one might expect with a 9.5kw
system :(

Any advice much appreciated!

My rough calculations agreed with yours- about 50% of what I should expect.

Would it suffice to turn it up full and measure the Voltage across it?
(pardon my ignorance)


This is raising 20C, if you're going from 10C to 50C, it'll be 3.5l/min.
To hit 2.5l/min, you need to be raising the water temp 60C or so.
Unlikely.
Sounds like something is wrong.

Can you measure if it's using the right amount of electricity?

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:37:34 +0100, "David Williams"
wrote:

Gentleman-

The input cold water supply is about 13C
At full heat (around 43C on the same thermo) it produces about 2.25litre/min

The 2.25 figure seems to be about half what one might expect with a 9.5kw
system :(

Any advice much appreciated!



It can't be running at 9.5kW and have that throughput.

Try turning off as much other electrical stuff in the house as you can
and time the meter for 2-3 minutes and note readings or time a certain
amount of use.

Either the element is only consuming half the power continuously, or
there is a thermostat turning it on and off. That should be
obvious from the meter.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:41:07 +0100, "David Williams"
wrote:

My rough calculations agreed with yours- about 50% of what I should expect.

Would it suffice to turn it up full and measure the Voltage across it?
(pardon my ignorance)

It's not going to tell you a lot.

You need to look at the consumption and whether it is simply that the
water flow is low and therefore the thermostat is turning the element
on and off. It may be that it has some kind of electronic controller
that reduces the power rather than turning it on and off, I suppose.

Try looking at the meter and timing an amount of consumption.
Also look and see if the meter stops and starts.




This is raising 20C, if you're going from 10C to 50C, it'll be 3.5l/min.
To hit 2.5l/min, you need to be raising the water temp 60C or so.
Unlikely.
Sounds like something is wrong.

Can you measure if it's using the right amount of electricity?


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Thanks, I'll try that tomorrow. As I mentioned above, the water pressure to
the unit is fine... on the 'cold' setting (i.e. basically just run through
from mains) it pumps around 8.5-9 l/min.



You need to look at the consumption and whether it is simply that the
water flow is low and therefore the thermostat is turning the element
on and off. It may be that it has some kind of electronic controller
that reduces the power rather than turning it on and off, I suppose.

Try looking at the meter and timing an amount of consumption.
Also look and see if the meter stops and starts.

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 00:03:34 +0100, "David Williams"
wrote:

Thanks, I'll try that tomorrow. As I mentioned above, the water pressure to
the unit is fine... on the 'cold' setting (i.e. basically just run through
from mains) it pumps around 8.5-9 l/min.


Perhaps the water valve is faulty or something?





You need to look at the consumption and whether it is simply that the
water flow is low and therefore the thermostat is turning the element
on and off. It may be that it has some kind of electronic controller
that reduces the power rather than turning it on and off, I suppose.

Try looking at the meter and timing an amount of consumption.
Also look and see if the meter stops and starts.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Could be- there is a 'stabaliser valve' in the unit. When it was first
installed a relay jammed on the main board and blew almost everything that
could blow. The Triton engineer replaced the circuit board, the heater can
and the thermal cut-out... it all worked and I immediatley noticed the low
flow but he made nothing of it and I was so pleased to have it working that
I didnt push it further. It was only when I used it the first time I
realised just how low the flow was...

I will call them again but I hoped to do some diagnosis myself as I can see
it will be a huge uphill struggle to get them to fix/replace it when it is
apparently 'working' :(


Perhaps the water valve is faulty or something?

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 00:27:27 +0100, "David Williams"
wrote:

Could be- there is a 'stabaliser valve' in the unit. When it was first
installed a relay jammed on the main board and blew almost everything that
could blow. The Triton engineer replaced the circuit board, the heater can
and the thermal cut-out... it all worked and I immediatley noticed the low
flow but he made nothing of it and I was so pleased to have it working that
I didnt push it further. It was only when I used it the first time I
realised just how low the flow was...

I will call them again but I hoped to do some diagnosis myself as I can see
it will be a huge uphill struggle to get them to fix/replace it when it is
apparently 'working' :(


Did you buy it as a consumer with a credit card?

If so, really the supplier owns the problem, not the manufacturer.

Could you not just uninstall it and return it for a replacement?
On a new product, you shouldn't have to have all this nonsense,
although it does make sense to measure the flow rate and measure the
electricity consumption and write to them on it. Clearly it doesn't
meet spec. and you've demonstrated that the water supply is OK.






Perhaps the water valve is faulty or something?


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andy Hall wrote:
On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:37:34 +0100, "David Williams"
wrote:

Gentleman-

The input cold water supply is about 13C
At full heat (around 43C on the same thermo) it produces about 2.25litre/min

The 2.25 figure seems to be about half what one might expect with a 9.5kw
system :(

Any advice much appreciated!



It can't be running at 9.5kW and have that throughput.

Unless there's a significant leak :)

On 29 Sep 2004 11:23:21 GMT, Ian Stirling
wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:
On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:37:34 +0100, "David Williams"
wrote:

Gentleman-

The input cold water supply is about 13C
At full heat (around 43C on the same thermo) it produces about 2.25litre/min

The 2.25 figure seems to be about half what one might expect with a 9.5kw
system :(

Any advice much appreciated!



It can't be running at 9.5kW and have that throughput.

Unless there's a significant leak :)


Of either water or electricity. Unless David has bought one of
those energy concentrating gizmos and it is being sapped away like a
sort of table top black hole.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article , David Williams
writes
My rough calculations agreed with yours- about 50% of what I should expect.

Would it suffice to turn it up full and measure the Voltage across it?
(pardon my ignorance)

I notice it has the usual high and economy settings. In spite of the
electronic tag on the unit I bet these are achieved with 2 elements in the
heater can and also that one of these is not being fed when it is on the
high setting. You'd be able to check this with your multimeter. You might
also find that there is no difference in heat between the high & economy
settings.
--
fred

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 22:16:01 +0100, David Williams wrote:

Just installed a new Triton T300si (one of those with a remote heating
pack).

Its delivering barely over 2.5l/min on half heat setting = just about warm

enough for a shower. Pathetic by any measure.

Its a replacement for an old knackered 8.5Kw... but the one delivered
approximately TWICE the flow rate (certainly comfortable) at the same
temperature setting.

There is NO problem with the plumbing or water pressure on the input (with
the mains pressure at full the water is almost exploding out the taps in the
same bathroom)

Could anything else be up? wiring???? Or is it really just that crap?
(flow/temp charts in manual seem to show much better performance but its
difficult to get an exact measure of output temperature to be sure)

thanks in advance.

At half heat you have a 4.75kW shower. Try turning it to full power.
The flow rate and likely temperture rise are consistent with the
power setting.



--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:03:58 +0100, Pete C wrote:

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 22:16:01 +0100, "David Williams"
wrote:

Just installed a new Triton T300si (one of those with a remote heating
pack).

Its delivering barely over 2.5l/min on half heat setting = just about warm
enough for a shower. Pathetic by any measure.

Hi,

What can it do on full heat setting?


I'm amazed that with the huge amount of collective wisdom in this group it
took a dozen posts to get around to this point.

If you open up almost any electric shower you will find that it has two
elements! The half heat settting simply uses one out of the two.
Temperature control is done by tweaking flow rate.

About the only uses I can think of for 1/2 heat a
a) very mean users - but they don't take into account that there will be
less water and they'll have to spend a longer time.
b) preventing excessive water temperature when there is very very poor
running pressure (not all model have a low water pressure cut off).
c) A temporary work around when people have fitted a 9.5kW (or more)
onto a 32A supply and find the breaker trips 2 minutes after they have
got started.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

"David Williams" wrote in
:

Just installed a new Triton T300si (one of those with a remote heating
pack).

Its delivering barely over 2.5l/min on half heat setting = just about
warm enough for a shower. Pathetic by any measure.

Its a replacement for an old knackered 8.5Kw... but the one delivered
approximately TWICE the flow rate (certainly comfortable) at the same
temperature setting.

I had a Redring electronic that had two cookers in it and one broke

mike

Just a quick note to Ed Sirett - the half temp setting referred to the flow
control NOT the economy/high setting, I'm not that dumb!. My bad description
no doubt, sorry.

Andy's suggestion of looking at the meter revealed the answer. Based on a
3Kw kettle we determined that the unit was drawing just over 4.5kw... which
is just exactly 1/2 what it should. The answer was then obvious- (and had
Fred replied before I tried this he would have won first prize!) one of the
elements isn't functioning. Had a look inside and reseated the two
connectors onto the PCB (one was loose) and guess what, it now works fine...
same heat on setting 3 as previously on setting 6 so twice the flow. The
engineer couldn't have seated the connectors properly when he replaced the
board.

Of course in retrospect it all seems obvious and had the shower actually
been in use and then suddenly dropped in performance by 50% it would have
been obvious too.. but when presented wiht a low flow rate from the first
time we coudl actually use the damn thing, it wasn't so!

thanks one and all, now I just have to call Triton and cancel the engineers
2nd visit and tell them why....

David

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 00:27:27 +0100, "David Williams"
wrote:

Could be- there is a 'stabaliser valve' in the unit. When it was first
installed a relay jammed on the main board and blew almost everything that
could blow. The Triton engineer replaced the circuit board, the heater can
and the thermal cut-out... it all worked and I immediatley noticed the low
flow but he made nothing of it and I was so pleased to have it working that
I didnt push it further. It was only when I used it the first time I
realised just how low the flow was...

I will call them again but I hoped to do some diagnosis myself as I can see
it will be a huge uphill struggle to get them to fix/replace it when it is
apparently 'working' :(

Hi,

Try measuring the voltage at the shower when it's switched from half
to full power, there should be a small drop as the second element is
switched in. The drop should be roughly equal to that between the
shower being switched from off to half power.

cheers,
Pete.

David Williams wrote:
Thanks, I'll try that tomorrow. As I mentioned above, the water
pressure to the unit is fine... on the 'cold' setting (i.e. basically
just run through from mains) it pumps around 8.5-9 l/min.

David we have the same model, and when it was installed had a problem with
it, as the unit is about 2 yrs ago I can't quite remember what it was but
had a problem of booting up and giving the low pressure warning and the
water was only luke warm, the triton guy knew exactly what it was straight
away and replaced the circuit board in the control panel (on/off panel
part - he said it was good job it was on the control panel as apparently the
heater box was inaccessible at least for him where the plumber had put it -
anyway another story) - all this is slightly irrelevant really I guess, but
one thing that I did note was the flow rates - apparently our water pressure
is only just enough and we found that when we had the filter bit between the
water intel pipe and the unit sometimes the low flow rate light came on, and
wouldn't work - so we took out the filter bit (I know you shouldn't - but it
worked for us!), but from memory with the filter in and on full cold on we
were getting something like 15 litres / min (I can check this a weekend with
filter off - if you wanted), so its just occurred to me that although your
pressure is okay I wonder if your flow rate is okay - the manual says it
needs a min of 9 lit / min!!

Jon

In article , David Williams
writes
Just a quick note to Ed Sirett - the half temp setting referred to the flow
control NOT the economy/high setting, I'm not that dumb!. My bad description
no doubt, sorry.

Andy's suggestion of looking at the meter revealed the answer. Based on a
3Kw kettle we determined that the unit was drawing just over 4.5kw... which
is just exactly 1/2 what it should. The answer was then obvious- (and had
Fred replied before I tried this he would have won first prize!) one of the
elements isn't functioning. Had a look inside and reseated the two
connectors onto the PCB (one was loose) and guess what, it now works fine...
same heat on setting 3 as previously on setting 6 so twice the flow. The
engineer couldn't have seated the connectors properly when he replaced the
board.

Of course in retrospect it all seems obvious and had the shower actually
been in use and then suddenly dropped in performance by 50% it would have
been obvious too.. but when presented wiht a low flow rate from the first
time we coudl actually use the damn thing, it wasn't so!

thanks one and all, now I just have to call Triton and cancel the engineers
2nd visit and tell them why....

David

Main thing is it's now fixed but I'm afraid that since you didn't reply early
enough for me to cancel my post you still owe me for the 'spot-the-obvious-
mistake-by-couldn't-care-less-tradesman' call-out fee ;-D
--
fred

In article , fred writes
In article , David Williams
writes
Had a look inside and reseated the two
connectors onto the PCB (one was loose) and guess what, it now works fine...
same heat on setting 3 as previously on setting 6 so twice the flow. The
engineer couldn't have seated the connectors properly when he replaced the
board.

A quick followup, those spades are carrying quite a bit of current, so you
might want to gently re-tension the contacts if they are the slightest bit
loose; to avoid more trouble later.
--
fred

Its delivering barely over 2.5l/min on half heat setting = just about warm
enough for a shower. Pathetic by any measure.

2.5l per minute is what you'll get on half heat from a 9.5kW electric
shower. Put it on full heat and you get around 5l per minute. Half heat
gives you approximately half the full rating.

Christian.