The cheapskate who installed out CH didnt fit either, just a gate valve
cracked open a bit, which gets a bit noisy as the TRVs throttle back. Im
about to fit a new pump and now seems like a good time to sort this.

Any pros and cons to any particular valves? Any recommended magnetic
filters that dont cost an arm and a leg and are easy to fit?

Tim


--
Please don't feed the trolls

On Sunday, 7 March 2021 at 17:20:58 UTC, Tim+ wrote:
The cheapskate who installed out CH didnt fit either, just a gate valve
cracked open a bit, which gets a bit noisy as the TRVs throttle back. Im
about to fit a new pump and now seems like a good time to sort this.

Any pros and cons to any particular valves? Any recommended magnetic
filters that dont cost an arm and a leg and are easy to fit?

If you were to fit a variable pressure pump (that detects the TRVs closing and reduces its output accordingly) I *think* the bypass might be less significant? I guess it might still be required for pump overrun.

On 07/03/2021 18:38, Mathew Newton wrote:
On Sunday, 7 March 2021 at 17:20:58 UTC, Tim+ wrote:
The cheapskate who installed out CH didnt fit either, just a gate valve
cracked open a bit, which gets a bit noisy as the TRVs throttle back. Im
about to fit a new pump and now seems like a good time to sort this.

Any pros and cons to any particular valves? Any recommended magnetic
filters that dont cost an arm and a leg and are easy to fit?

If you were to fit a variable pressure pump (that detects the TRVs closing and reduces its output accordingly) I *think* the bypass might be less significant? I guess it might still be required for pump overrun.


If your boiler doesn't need an over-run (pump and boiler call-for-heat
wired in parallel) then you don't need (i.e. shouldn't fit) a bypass if
you install a modulating pump. If the boiler controls the pump then you
can fit a modulating pump but need to wire an additional valve ...
Search for W-B TB0074 for more info.

wrote:
On 07/03/2021 18:38, Mathew Newton wrote:
On Sunday, 7 March 2021 at 17:20:58 UTC, Tim+ wrote:
The cheapskate who installed out CH didnt fit either, just a gate valve
cracked open a bit, which gets a bit noisy as the TRVs throttle back. Im
about to fit a new pump and now seems like a good time to sort this.

Any pros and cons to any particular valves? Any recommended magnetic
filters that dont cost an arm and a leg and are easy to fit?

If you were to fit a variable pressure pump (that detects the TRVs
closing and reduces its output accordingly) I *think* the bypass might
be less significant? I guess it might still be required for pump overrun.


If your boiler doesn't need an over-run (pump and boiler call-for-heat
wired in parallel) then you don't need (i.e. shouldn't fit) a bypass if
you install a modulating pump. If the boiler controls the pump then you
can fit a modulating pump but need to wire an additional valve ...
Search for W-B TB0074 for more info.


Its a Grundfos UPS3 which has some smarts. Ill need to do a bit of
reading I think.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On Sunday, 7 March 2021 at 22:21:16 UTC, Tim+ wrote:

If you were to fit a variable pressure pump (that detects the TRVs
closing and reduces its output accordingly) I *think* the bypass might
be less significant? I guess it might still be required for pump overrun.


If your boiler doesn't need an over-run (pump and boiler call-for-heat
wired in parallel) then you don't need (i.e. shouldn't fit) a bypass if
you install a modulating pump. If the boiler controls the pump then you
can fit a modulating pump but need to wire an additional valve ...
Search for W-B TB0074 for more info.

Its a Grundfos UPS3 which has some smarts. Ill need to do a bit of
reading I think.

I installed one of those last year. As the gate valves were seized up and
the new ones were a different size I needed to adjust the plumbing. I removed
the bypass valve on the basis that the new smart pump should look after the
situation with all TRVs closed. It all worked fine. However, when I removed the
bypass valve I discovered that it was so clogged up with crud that it couldn't
have been working for years.

John

On 07/03/2021 22:21, Tim+ wrote:
wrote:
On 07/03/2021 18:38, Mathew Newton wrote:
On Sunday, 7 March 2021 at 17:20:58 UTC, Tim+ wrote:
The cheapskate who installed out CH didnt fit either, just a gate valve
cracked open a bit, which gets a bit noisy as the TRVs throttle back. Im
about to fit a new pump and now seems like a good time to sort this.

Any pros and cons to any particular valves? Any recommended magnetic
filters that dont cost an arm and a leg and are easy to fit?

If you were to fit a variable pressure pump (that detects the TRVs
closing and reduces its output accordingly) I *think* the bypass might
be less significant? I guess it might still be required for pump overrun.


If your boiler doesn't need an over-run (pump and boiler call-for-heat
wired in parallel) then you don't need (i.e. shouldn't fit) a bypass if
you install a modulating pump. If the boiler controls the pump then you
can fit a modulating pump but need to wire an additional valve ...
Search for W-B TB0074 for more info.


Its a Grundfos UPS3 which has some smarts. Ill need to do a bit of
reading I think.

Tim


In my experience, automatic by-pass valves and smart pumps don't make
good bed-fellows. Smart pumps reduce their speed when the flow is
restricted due to TRVs and/or zone valves closing in order to maintain a
more or less constant pressure. But automatic by-pass valves *need* an
increase in pressure in order to open. If they *don't* open when they
should, there'll be insufficient flow through the boiler to stop it
overheating from residual heat during the pump over-run phase after it
has stopped firing.

I found it necessary to disable the smart features of my pump, and use
it in manual mode.
--
Cheers,
Roger

On 08/03/2021 00:16, Roger Mills wrote:
On 07/03/2021 22:21, Tim+ wrote:
wrote:
On 07/03/2021 18:38, Mathew Newton wrote:
On Sunday, 7 March 2021 at 17:20:58 UTC, Tim+ wrote:
The cheapskate who installed out CH didnt fit either, just a gate
valve
cracked open a bit, which gets a bit noisy as the TRVs throttle
back. Im
about to fit a new pump and now seems like a good time to sort this.

Any pros and cons to any particular valves? Any recommended magnetic
filters that dont cost an arm and a leg and are easy to fit?

If you were to fit a variable pressure pump (that detects the TRVs
closing and reduces its output accordingly) I *think* the bypass might
be less significant? I guess it might still be required for pump
overrun.


If your boiler doesn't need an over-run (pump and boiler call-for-heat
wired in parallel) then you don't need (i.e. shouldn't fit) a bypass if
you install a modulating pump. If the boiler controls the pump then you
can fit a modulating pump but need to wire an additional valve ...
Search for W-B TB0074 for more info.


Its a Grundfos UPS3 which has some smarts. Ill need to do a bit of
reading I think.

Tim


In my experience, automatic by-pass valves and smart pumps don't make
good bed-fellows. Smart pumps reduce their speed when the flow is
restricted due to TRVs and/or zone valves closing in order to maintain a
more or less constant pressure. But automatic by-pass valves *need* an
increase in pressure in order to open. If they *don't* open when they
should, there'll be insufficient flow through the boiler to stop it
overheating from residual heat during the pump over-run phase after it
has stopped firing.

I found it necessary to disable the smart features of my pump, and use
it in manual mode.

IME using the modulating mode makes a significant difference to the flow
noise as radiators are shut off. Have a look at the TB I referenced earlier.

On 7 Mar 2021 17:20:54 GMT, Tim+ wrote:

The cheapskate who installed out CH didn’t fit either, just a gate valve
cracked open a bit, which gets a bit noisy as the TRVs throttle back. I’m
about to fit a new pump and now seems like a good time to sort this.

Any pros and cons to any particular valves? Any recommended magnetic
filters that don’t cost an arm and a leg and are easy to fit?

Tim
I've had two Honeywell DU145 auto bypass valves fail in the last 10
years. Bloody things fail open, or partly open, so hot water is
flowing through the bypass loop even when the zone valve(s) are open.
I seem to recall reading somewhere that building (or some other) regs
mandate a bypass valve in CH systems. Can't find the reference now, so
don't know if true.
I'd thought about putting a normally open version of a zone valve in
the bypass loop, driven closed by the boiler call signal from the CH &
HW valves, so whenever there's a call for heat the bypass closes,
otherwise it stays open (including on pump overrun). Dunno if the
micro switches in the CH & HW zone valves would handle the additional
load though. (S-Plan system btw).

On 08/03/2021 11:42, Davidm wrote:
On 7 Mar 2021 17:20:54 GMT, Tim+ wrote:

The cheapskate who installed out CH didnt fit either, just a gate valve
cracked open a bit, which gets a bit noisy as the TRVs throttle back. Im
about to fit a new pump and now seems like a good time to sort this.

Any pros and cons to any particular valves? Any recommended magnetic
filters that dont cost an arm and a leg and are easy to fit?

Tim
I've had two Honeywell DU145 auto bypass valves fail in the last 10
years. Bloody things fail open, or partly open, so hot water is
flowing through the bypass loop even when the zone valve(s) are open.
I seem to recall reading somewhere that building (or some other) regs
mandate a bypass valve in CH systems. Can't find the reference now, so
don't know if true.
I'd thought about putting a normally open version of a zone valve in
the bypass loop, driven closed by the boiler call signal from the CH &
HW valves, so whenever there's a call for heat the bypass closes,
otherwise it stays open (including on pump overrun). Dunno if the
micro switches in the CH & HW zone valves would handle the additional
load though. (S-Plan system btw).


I'd also thought of doing that, but have never got round to it. The use
of a diverter valve mentioned elsewhere in this thread would achieve the
same result, possibly in a slightly more elegant way.
--
Cheers,
Roger

On 08/03/2021 13:15, Roger Mills wrote:
On 08/03/2021 11:42, Davidm wrote:
On 7 Mar 2021 17:20:54 GMT, Tim+ wrote:

The cheapskate who installed out CH didnt fit either, just a gate valve
cracked open a bit, which gets a bit noisy as the TRVs throttle
back.Â* Im
about to fit a new pump and now seems like a good time to sort this.

Any pros and cons to any particular valves?Â* Any recommended magnetic
filters that dont cost an arm and a leg and are easy to fit?

Tim
I've had two Honeywell DU145 auto bypass valves fail in the last 10
years. Bloody things fail open, or partly open, so hot water is
flowing through the bypass loop even when the zone valve(s) are open.
I seem to recall reading somewhere that building (or some other) regs
mandate a bypass valve in CH systems. Can't find the reference now, so
don't know if true.
I'd thought about putting a normally open version of a zone valve in
the bypass loop, driven closed by the boiler call signal from the CH &
HW valves, so whenever there's a call for heat the bypass closes,
otherwise it stays open (including on pump overrun). Dunno if the
micro switches in the CH & HW zone valves would handle the additional
load though. (S-Plan system btw).


I'd also thought of doing that, but have never got round to it. The use
of a diverter valve mentioned elsewhere in this thread would achieve the
same result, possibly in a slightly more elegant way.

What's happened to the idea that towel rails act as the bypass? May not
be as efficient - in theory - but far more reliable.

As in, "the component that's never fitted is free - and 100% reliable".

PA

On 08/03/2021 11:42, Davidm wrote:
On 7 Mar 2021 17:20:54 GMT, Tim+ wrote:

The cheapskate who installed out CH didnt fit either, just a gate valve
cracked open a bit, which gets a bit noisy as the TRVs throttle back. Im
about to fit a new pump and now seems like a good time to sort this.

Any pros and cons to any particular valves? Any recommended magnetic
filters that dont cost an arm and a leg and are easy to fit?

Tim
I've had two Honeywell DU145 auto bypass valves fail in the last 10
years. Bloody things fail open, or partly open, so hot water is
flowing through the bypass loop even when the zone valve(s) are open.
I seem to recall reading somewhere that building (or some other) regs
mandate a bypass valve in CH systems. Can't find the reference now, so
don't know if true.
I'd thought about putting a normally open version of a zone valve in
the bypass loop, driven closed by the boiler call signal from the CH &
HW valves, so whenever there's a call for heat the bypass closes,
otherwise it stays open (including on pump overrun). Dunno if the
micro switches in the CH & HW zone valves would handle the additional
load though. (S-Plan system btw).

Easily. The microswitches are typically rated at least 5 to 6A and can
be higher depending upon make. The additional valve will take about 7W,
so an extra 30mA.

On Mon, 8 Mar 2021 22:18:28 +0000, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 08/03/2021 11:42, Davidm wrote:
On 7 Mar 2021 17:20:54 GMT, Tim+ wrote:

The cheapskate who installed out CH didn’t fit either, just a gate valve
cracked open a bit, which gets a bit noisy as the TRVs throttle back. I’m
about to fit a new pump and now seems like a good time to sort this.

Any pros and cons to any particular valves? Any recommended magnetic
filters that don’t cost an arm and a leg and are easy to fit?

Tim
I've had two Honeywell DU145 auto bypass valves fail in the last 10
years. Bloody things fail open, or partly open, so hot water is
flowing through the bypass loop even when the zone valve(s) are open.
I seem to recall reading somewhere that building (or some other) regs
mandate a bypass valve in CH systems. Can't find the reference now, so
don't know if true.
I'd thought about putting a normally open version of a zone valve in
the bypass loop, driven closed by the boiler call signal from the CH &
HW valves, so whenever there's a call for heat the bypass closes,
otherwise it stays open (including on pump overrun). Dunno if the
micro switches in the CH & HW zone valves would handle the additional
load though. (S-Plan system btw).

Easily. The microswitches are typically rated at least 5 to 6A and can
be higher depending upon make. The additional valve will take about 7W,
so an extra 30mA.

Thanks Steve!

Davidm wrote:
On 7 Mar 2021 17:20:54 GMT, Tim+ wrote:

The cheapskate who installed out CH didnÂ’t fit either, just a gate valve
cracked open a bit, which gets a bit noisy as the TRVs throttle back. IÂ’m
about to fit a new pump and now seems like a good time to sort this.

Any pros and cons to any particular valves? Any recommended magnetic
filters that donÂ’t cost an arm and a leg and are easy to fit?

Tim
I've had two Honeywell DU145 auto bypass valves fail in the last 10
years. Bloody things fail open, or partly open, so hot water is
flowing through the bypass loop even when the zone valve(s) are open.
I seem to recall reading somewhere that building (or some other) regs
mandate a bypass valve in CH systems. Can't find the reference now, so
don't know if true.
I'd thought about putting a normally open version of a zone valve in
the bypass loop, driven closed by the boiler call signal from the CH &
HW valves, so whenever there's a call for heat the bypass closes,
otherwise it stays open (including on pump overrun). Dunno if the
micro switches in the CH & HW zone valves would handle the additional
load though. (S-Plan system btw).


Oh well, Ive deleted by bypass gate valve for the moment and fitted the
new pump.

So far all seems well and the radiators are heating more quickly and better
than theyve done for years AND the pump is a lot quieter. I found that
the old gate valve was letting a lot of water past even when supposedly
closed and I suspect that it was significantly slowing the system warm up
time as the return flow to the boiler was reaching target temperature way
too quickly.

As ever with plumbing there were a lot more buggeration factors
complicating what should have been a simple job, some of my own making and
some just daft design. I mean, why put all the boilers electrical
connections in a box screwed to the underside of the boiler (with Torx
screws)?

As my boiler is in the loft only 8€� above the loft floor this was a PITA.

I have fitted the new pump in a €œnon-standard€� position and this may come
back to bite me in the bum but Im prepared to chance it. Its now by my
HW tank pushing water up to the boiler in the loft via the boiler return
rather than being in the loft on the flow side (where it had very little
head of pressure and would cavitate whenever the system pressure dropped.

Time will tell if this is a mistake (or everyone on USENET). ;-)


Tim


--
Please don't feed the trolls

Davidm wrote:

I'd thought about putting a normally open version of a zone valve in
the bypass loop, driven closed by the boiler call signal from the CH &
HW valves, so whenever there's a call for heat the bypass closes,
otherwise it stays open (including on pump overrun).

Sounds like a neat solution. Must look into this.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls