A bit of a long-shot but ... is there anyone out there who has restored,
is restoring, or has worked on a 19th century square piano?

Wrote in message:
A bit of a long-shot but ... is there anyone out there who has restored,
is restoring, or has worked on a 19th century square piano?


The problem with square pianosis they sound a bit flat ;-)
--

%Profound_observation%

On 28/01/2021 13:37, Graham. wrote:
Wrote in message:
A bit of a long-shot but ... is there anyone out there who has restored,
is restoring, or has worked on a 19th century square piano?


The problem with square pianos
is they sound a bit flat ;-)

They're sometimes tuned to A415, rather than A440, so that's not surprising.
Or (attempting to match the humour) ... you'd expect them to be sharp
because of the square corners ;-)

On 28/01/2021 13:45, wrote:
On 28/01/2021 13:37, Graham. wrote:
Wrote in message:
A bit of a long-shot but ... is there anyone out there who has restored,
is restoring, or has worked on a 19th century square piano?


The problem with square pianos
is they sound a bit flat ;-)

They're sometimes tuned to A415, rather than A440, so that's not
surprising.
Or (attempting to match the humour) ... you'd expect them to be sharp
because of the square corners ;-)


My wife has a upright piano..... which I had got for a song from
work.... (literally, it was due to go into the skip and bought it for
£21.06 via a workplace staff auction)

I then paid for a piano tuner to tune it up.

He assessed it by tickling the ivory and proclaimed it as completely flat...

I said, Its not flat, its a 3 dimensional shape.....

Hmmm, a badly structured question. Hopefully it makes more sense now.

On 28/01/2021 12:12, wrote:
A bit of a long-shot but ... is there anyone out there who has restored,
is restoring, or has worked on a 19th century square piano?

wrote:
Hmmm, a badly structured question. Hopefully it makes more sense now.

On 28/01/2021 12:12, wrote:
A bit of a long-shot but ... is there anyone out there who has
restored, is restoring, or has worked on a 19th century square piano?


It says here, it has to be restored, before it can be tuned.

https://antiquepianoshop.com/square-grand-pianos/

Makes for a cheap instrument :-) Replacing
all the strings, dampers, and degrade-able materials.
I guess you get to keep the original wood.

You could keep the strings and the "untuneable nature",
if you had one of these autotuners. Average operating
power = 800W to keep the piano in precise tune. The
800W represents the amount of heat needed to pull the
piano from initial tuning state, into tune.

https://newatlas.com/gilmore-self-tu...-system/21425/

So rather than rotate a peg to tune the string,
it uses electricity and heat in the string, to
set the frequency.

Paul

On 28/01/2021 17:41, Paul wrote:
wrote:
Hmmm, a badly structured question. Hopefully it makes more sense now.

On 28/01/2021 12:12, wrote:
A bit of a long-shot but ... is there anyone out there who has
restored, is restoring, or has worked on a 19th century square piano?


It says here, it has to be restored, before it can be tuned.

https://antiquepianoshop.com/square-grand-pianos/

Makes for a cheap instrument :-) Replacing
all the strings, dampers, and degrade-able materials.
I guess you get to keep the original wood.

You could keep the strings and the "untuneable nature",
if you had one of these autotuners. Average operating
power = 800W to keep the piano in precise tune. The
800W represents the amount of heat needed to pull the
piano from initial tuning state, into tune.

https://newatlas.com/gilmore-self-tu...-system/21425/

So rather than rotate a peg to tune the string,
it uses electricity and heat in the string, to
set the frequency.


These days you could use a spectrum analyser app on a mobile phone to
tune each key. Play the one note, the app will show the fundamental
frequency, rotate peg to adjust to correct frequency.


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 16:29:44 +0000, wrote:

Hmmm, a badly structured question. Hopefully it makes more sense now.

On 28/01/2021 12:12, wrote:
A bit of a long-shot but ... is there anyone out there who has restored,
is restoring, or has worked on a 19th century square piano?

No, but a couple of thoughts:

1) Try contacting local piano tuners; they might know someone. After
all they might have been asked to tune one.
2) If you have a musical museum (even if it's not piano specific)
nearby they might have restored a square piano and be able to offer
advice or point you at someone.
3) I've come across square/straight strung pianos in National Trust
(and other) properties and they have all sorts of experts on call.
4) This is a bit more of a long shot but I wonder if one of the music
colleges (Guildhall, Royal Academy, Royal College in London for
instance) might be able to help?

On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 18:46:32 +0000, Graham Harrison
wrote:

On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 16:29:44 +0000, wrote:

Hmmm, a badly structured question. Hopefully it makes more sense now.

On 28/01/2021 12:12, wrote:
A bit of a long-shot but ... is there anyone out there who has restored,
is restoring, or has worked on a 19th century square piano?

No, but a couple of thoughts:

1) Try contacting local piano tuners; they might know someone. After
all they might have been asked to tune one.
2) If you have a musical museum (even if it's not piano specific)
nearby they might have restored a square piano and be able to offer
advice or point you at someone.
3) I've come across square/straight strung pianos in National Trust
(and other) properties and they have all sorts of experts on call.
4) This is a bit more of a long shot but I wonder if one of the music
colleges (Guildhall, Royal Academy, Royal College in London for
instance) might be able to help?

These.

And in the order Graham has listed them.

Nick

On 28/01/2021 18:05, alan_m wrote:
On 28/01/2021 17:41, Paul wrote:
wrote:
Hmmm, a badly structured question. Hopefully it makes more sense now.

On 28/01/2021 12:12, wrote:
A bit of a long-shot but ... is there anyone out there who has
restored, is restoring, or has worked on a 19th century square piano?


It says here, it has to be restored, before it can be tuned.

https://antiquepianoshop.com/square-grand-pianos/

Makes for a cheap instrument :-) Replacing
all the strings, dampers, and degrade-able materials.
I guess you get to keep the original wood.

You could keep the strings and the "untuneable nature",
if you had one of these autotuners. Average operating
power = 800W to keep the piano in precise tune. The
800W represents the amount of heat needed to pull the
piano from initial tuning state, into tune.

https://newatlas.com/gilmore-self-tu...-system/21425/

So rather than rotate a peg to tune the string,
it uses electricity and heat in the string, to
set the frequency.


These days you could use a spectrum analyser app on a mobile phone to
tune each key.Â* Play the one note, the app will show the fundamental
frequency, rotate peg to adjust to correct frequency.


Simpler to pay a piano tuner

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_key_frequencies

and this is before you consider that the double and triple strings are
not tuned quite the same.

On 28/01/2021 18:46, Graham Harrison wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 16:29:44 +0000, wrote:

Hmmm, a badly structured question. Hopefully it makes more sense now.

On 28/01/2021 12:12, wrote:
A bit of a long-shot but ... is there anyone out there who has restored,
is restoring, or has worked on a 19th century square piano?

No, but a couple of thoughts:

1) Try contacting local piano tuners; they might know someone. After
all they might have been asked to tune one.
2) If you have a musical museum (even if it's not piano specific)
nearby they might have restored a square piano and be able to offer
advice or point you at someone.
3) I've come across square/straight strung pianos in National Trust
(and other) properties and they have all sorts of experts on call.
4) This is a bit more of a long shot but I wonder if one of the music
colleges (Guildhall, Royal Academy, Royal College in London for
instance) might be able to help?

Thanks, but I'm restoring one myself and wondered if there was anyone
else here to (ahem) exchange notes with. I'm aware of several
professional restorers but that's not what I'm looking for.

On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 21:39:48 +0000, newshound
wrote:

On 28/01/2021 18:05, alan_m wrote:
On 28/01/2021 17:41, Paul wrote:
wrote:
Hmmm, a badly structured question. Hopefully it makes more sense now.

On 28/01/2021 12:12, wrote:
A bit of a long-shot but ... is there anyone out there who has
restored, is restoring, or has worked on a 19th century square piano?


It says here, it has to be restored, before it can be tuned.

https://antiquepianoshop.com/square-grand-pianos/

Makes for a cheap instrument :-) Replacing
all the strings, dampers, and degrade-able materials.
I guess you get to keep the original wood.

You could keep the strings and the "untuneable nature",
if you had one of these autotuners. Average operating
power = 800W to keep the piano in precise tune. The
800W represents the amount of heat needed to pull the
piano from initial tuning state, into tune.

https://newatlas.com/gilmore-self-tu...-system/21425/

So rather than rotate a peg to tune the string,
it uses electricity and heat in the string, to
set the frequency.


These days you could use a spectrum analyser app on a mobile phone to
tune each key.* Play the one note, the app will show the fundamental
frequency, rotate peg to adjust to correct frequency.


Simpler to pay a piano tuner

If you want it done properly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_key_frequencies

and this is before you consider that the double and triple strings are
not tuned quite the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y47O1LCiQgw

On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 23:21:39 +0000, wrote:

On 28/01/2021 18:46, Graham Harrison wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 16:29:44 +0000, wrote:

Hmmm, a badly structured question. Hopefully it makes more sense now.

On 28/01/2021 12:12, wrote:
A bit of a long-shot but ... is there anyone out there who has restored,
is restoring, or has worked on a 19th century square piano?

No, but a couple of thoughts:

1) Try contacting local piano tuners; they might know someone. After
all they might have been asked to tune one.
2) If you have a musical museum (even if it's not piano specific)
nearby they might have restored a square piano and be able to offer
advice or point you at someone.
3) I've come across square/straight strung pianos in National Trust
(and other) properties and they have all sorts of experts on call.
4) This is a bit more of a long shot but I wonder if one of the music
colleges (Guildhall, Royal Academy, Royal College in London for
instance) might be able to help?

Thanks, but I'm restoring one myself and wondered if there was anyone
else here to (ahem) exchange notes with. I'm aware of several
professional restorers but that's not what I'm looking for.

There are some useful hints to be picked up from the Lucy Coad video
at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BBflq39D-o and there's a link to
her company https://www.squarepiano.co.uk/

There were lots of other places I was planning to refer you to but I
haven't been paying enough attention because over the past twenty
years or so, all of them seem to have gone.

Museums don't seem to be as approachable as they used to be but I'm
sure there are relationships to be nurtured and there is so much
expertise there that it is really worth trying. I think some years ago
I mentioned here how brilliant the people at the V&A had been to me in
the 1960s and how they had encouraged me to launch myself into a 50+
year career. And reading. My 1948 Groves' has about sixteen pages on
the pianoforte and wanders in and out of discussion about the square
piano through that + diagrams of actions. Reading whatever you can,
where you can will build a useful composite.

There are plenty of people here who can contribute information on
classic wood and metal work and finishing in traditional materials so
if you have questions, ask away. Even if you don't have any questions
it would be terrific if you pop in from time to time and tell us how
things are getting along.

All the best,

Nick

But many have sharp corners.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Graham." wrote in message
...
Wrote in message:
A bit of a long-shot but ... is there anyone out there who has restored,
is restoring, or has worked on a 19th century square piano?


The problem with square pianosis they sound a bit flat ;-)
--

%Profound_observation%

Ha. Well I don't know much about tuning pianos, but some people have their
pianos tuned to their signature sound. Listen to any Carole King track where
she plays and it sounds different to how one might think it should. Not
wrong but different.
I guess its easier these days with electronic pianos to get any sound you
like.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"S" wrote in message
...
On 28/01/2021 13:45, wrote:
On 28/01/2021 13:37, Graham. wrote:
Wrote in message:
A bit of a long-shot but ... is there anyone out there who has
restored,
is restoring, or has worked on a 19th century square piano?


The problem with square pianos
is they sound a bit flat ;-)

They're sometimes tuned to A415, rather than A440, so that's not
surprising.
Or (attempting to match the humour) ... you'd expect them to be sharp
because of the square corners ;-)


My wife has a upright piano..... which I had got for a song from work....
(literally, it was due to go into the skip and bought it for £21.06 via a
workplace staff auction)

I then paid for a piano tuner to tune it up.

He assessed it by tickling the ivory and proclaimed it as completely
flat...

I said, Its not flat, its a 3 dimensional shape.....

That sounds a bit crude. The complexity of the innards of a piano used to
fascinate me. Obviously its not just one string for each note which is
tuned, but I never did get into the way it was all supposed to work.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Paul" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Hmmm, a badly structured question. Hopefully it makes more sense now.

On 28/01/2021 12:12, wrote:
A bit of a long-shot but ... is there anyone out there who has restored,
is restoring, or has worked on a 19th century square piano?


It says here, it has to be restored, before it can be tuned.

https://antiquepianoshop.com/square-grand-pianos/

Makes for a cheap instrument :-) Replacing
all the strings, dampers, and degrade-able materials.
I guess you get to keep the original wood.

You could keep the strings and the "untuneable nature",
if you had one of these autotuners. Average operating
power = 800W to keep the piano in precise tune. The
800W represents the amount of heat needed to pull the
piano from initial tuning state, into tune.

https://newatlas.com/gilmore-self-tu...-system/21425/

So rather than rotate a peg to tune the string,
it uses electricity and heat in the string, to
set the frequency.

Paul

On 28/01/2021 17:41, Paul wrote:
wrote:
Hmmm, a badly structured question. Hopefully it makes more sense now.

On 28/01/2021 12:12, wrote:
A bit of a long-shot but ... is there anyone out there who has
restored, is restoring, or has worked on a 19th century square piano?


It says here, it has to be restored, before it can be tuned.

https://antiquepianoshop.com/square-grand-pianos/


Thats not a square piano, thats a rectangular piano!

On 29/01/2021 00:46, Custos Custodum wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 21:39:48 +0000, newshound
wrote:

On 28/01/2021 18:05, alan_m wrote:
On 28/01/2021 17:41, Paul wrote:
wrote:
Hmmm, a badly structured question. Hopefully it makes more sense now.

On 28/01/2021 12:12, wrote:
A bit of a long-shot but ... is there anyone out there who has
restored, is restoring, or has worked on a 19th century square piano?


It says here, it has to be restored, before it can be tuned.

https://antiquepianoshop.com/square-grand-pianos/

Makes for a cheap instrument :-) Replacing
all the strings, dampers, and degrade-able materials.
I guess you get to keep the original wood.

You could keep the strings and the "untuneable nature",
if you had one of these autotuners. Average operating
power = 800W to keep the piano in precise tune. The
800W represents the amount of heat needed to pull the
piano from initial tuning state, into tune.

https://newatlas.com/gilmore-self-tu...-system/21425/

So rather than rotate a peg to tune the string,
it uses electricity and heat in the string, to
set the frequency.


These days you could use a spectrum analyser app on a mobile phone to
tune each key.Â* Play the one note, the app will show the fundamental
frequency, rotate peg to adjust to correct frequency.


Simpler to pay a piano tuner

If you want it done properly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_key_frequencies

and this is before you consider that the double and triple strings are
not tuned quite the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y47O1LCiQgw

I'm a long way from tuning but that's a useful link. Thanks.
My aim is to try and get the Square P finished before the upright needs
tuning so I can persuade the tuner to look at the Square and give me
some pointers, but I don't believe Squares were typically tuned to equal
temperament (or particularly stable) so tuning will end-up as DIY.

On 29/01/2021 04:46, Nick Odell wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 23:21:39 +0000, wrote:

On 28/01/2021 18:46, Graham Harrison wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 16:29:44 +0000, wrote:

Hmmm, a badly structured question. Hopefully it makes more sense now.

On 28/01/2021 12:12, wrote:
A bit of a long-shot but ... is there anyone out there who has restored,
is restoring, or has worked on a 19th century square piano?

No, but a couple of thoughts:

1) Try contacting local piano tuners; they might know someone. After
all they might have been asked to tune one.
2) If you have a musical museum (even if it's not piano specific)
nearby they might have restored a square piano and be able to offer
advice or point you at someone.
3) I've come across square/straight strung pianos in National Trust
(and other) properties and they have all sorts of experts on call.
4) This is a bit more of a long shot but I wonder if one of the music
colleges (Guildhall, Royal Academy, Royal College in London for
instance) might be able to help?

Thanks, but I'm restoring one myself and wondered if there was anyone
else here to (ahem) exchange notes with. I'm aware of several
professional restorers but that's not what I'm looking for.

There are some useful hints to be picked up from the Lucy Coad video
at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BBflq39D-o and there's a link to
her company https://www.squarepiano.co.uk/

There were lots of other places I was planning to refer you to but I
haven't been paying enough attention because over the past twenty
years or so, all of them seem to have gone.

Museums don't seem to be as approachable as they used to be but I'm
sure there are relationships to be nurtured and there is so much
expertise there that it is really worth trying. I think some years ago
I mentioned here how brilliant the people at the V&A had been to me in
the 1960s and how they had encouraged me to launch myself into a 50+
year career. And reading. My 1948 Groves' has about sixteen pages on
the pianoforte and wanders in and out of discussion about the square
piano through that + diagrams of actions. Reading whatever you can,
where you can will build a useful composite.

There are plenty of people here who can contribute information on
classic wood and metal work and finishing in traditional materials so
if you have questions, ask away. Even if you don't have any questions
it would be terrific if you pop in from time to time and tell us how
things are getting along.

All the best,

Nick

Thanks for your interest, Nick. This is very much a "when the mood hits"
project (as is finishing the Hurdy Gurdy and the restoration and
duplication of an 18thC English "Guittar"). It needs to take second
place to (in no particular order) renovating many Crittall windows and
frames, making a parquetry oak floor for the lobby, extending the
workshop, rewiring (mostly done), plumbing a new cloakroom, and making
new cupboards for the kitchen, utility and larder. There's more but
that's enough to suggest that the SquareP won't be a quick project ;-)

On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 23:21:39 +0000, wrote:

On 28/01/2021 18:46, Graham Harrison wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 16:29:44 +0000, wrote:

Hmmm, a badly structured question. Hopefully it makes more sense now.

On 28/01/2021 12:12, wrote:
A bit of a long-shot but ... is there anyone out there who has restored,
is restoring, or has worked on a 19th century square piano?

No, but a couple of thoughts:

1) Try contacting local piano tuners; they might know someone. After
all they might have been asked to tune one.
2) If you have a musical museum (even if it's not piano specific)
nearby they might have restored a square piano and be able to offer
advice or point you at someone.
3) I've come across square/straight strung pianos in National Trust
(and other) properties and they have all sorts of experts on call.
4) This is a bit more of a long shot but I wonder if one of the music
colleges (Guildhall, Royal Academy, Royal College in London for
instance) might be able to help?

Thanks, but I'm restoring one myself and wondered if there was anyone
else here to (ahem) exchange notes with. I'm aware of several
professional restorers but that's not what I'm looking for.

I think you're missing a possibility. For instance, a music school
might have a student doing a PhD who would be interested in helping as
part of a research project. The experts that might exist as contacts
of the National Trust need not be professional piano restorers.
There's a place called the Musical museum in Brentford. It's full of
mechanical pianos, orchestrions, fiddles and the like. The man who
founded it, Frank Merrick, wasn't a musician he was an electrical
engineer; it was the innards of the machines that fascinated him.

Serendipity/coincidence happens all the time but you have to be open
to it. For instance, my father was a concert pianist. Towards the end
of WW2 he got a letter asking for advice on composition.
Correspondance ensued and after the war dad suggested the young man
enter one of the London music schools which he did. In the late 50s
dad had lunch with someone from EMI who, out of the blue, asked if dad
knew anyone who might be interested in a job. The young man was
suggested amd he got the job. Some years later a tape appeared on
desks at EMI and the young man picked it up. The band was the Beatles
and the man was George Martin. Who would have thought a concert
pianist who have a (several times removed) hand in the launch of a pop
band?!

The problem with a straight strung/square piano is that people
interested in them, who might be able to help you, aren't easy to spot
and. I suspect, aren't professionals. It may well be that contacting a
music school (e.g.) won't put you in touch with someone directly but
one of the tutors may know an ex-pupil or a friend who can assist.

There are facebook pages, discussion groups and bulletin boards
devoted to the piano.