Last year I had a couple of mice up in my loft, which I duly caught.
However I also noticed rat droppings up there.

Noticed an end tile on the roof, where it meets the brickline, was
raised up slightly, owing to the way the edge had been cemented, so
plugged the gap up wth some expanding foam. Cleared the rat droppings up
from the loft and had no more problems since.

That was until a couple of months back when I noticed a strange smell
coming from the same corner where that tile was. I noticed that the
birds had pecked a hole in the expanding foam and had been popping in
and out of the eves, so figured the mice had got back in again.

I put the traps back up, but they didn't attract anything. Until a few
weeks back, when I noticed one of them had sprung, although nothing was
in it and the bait hadn't been touched...

Then I found more rat droppings nearby.

Anyway, I plugged the hole under the tile again and this time coated it
with bitumen, to stop the birds pecking at it. Got myself a bait box,
which I set up near the corner, where I found the droppings, and put one
of those internet security cameras which would alert me if anything came
around.

Been up there about a month, the bait hasnt been touched and nothing on
the camera. Until a few days back when the camera duly recorded a rat
sniffing about near the bait box.

Sadly it didnt go inside and take the bait.

I live in a semi-detatched house. Spoke to the neighbour, who says she
also heard something in the loft scurrying about the following morning.

So, I'm now trying to work out where this blighter is getting in and out
and what it's living on? There's no food up there, no water. I don't
believe its bitten through the foam filler, although without going up my
ladder to double check, its difficult to say 100%

On the neighbours side, there's a couple of holes in the wall from when
the previous occupants had a new bathroom fitted, but didnt bother
plugging up the gaps from when they moved the sink and bath. However,
the cavities are filled with, what appears to be, loose insulation. So
could this thing be burrowing its way in and out through the insulation?




--
Best Wishes
Simon T

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On 28/10/2020 13:25, Simon T wrote:
Rat.....

Can't help you as such but the problem comes when they eat poison and
die in a void somewhere, the stink!

On 28/10/2020 13:25, Simon T wrote:

snipped

Block holes with scrunched up chicken wire, they don't like that.

--
Cheers
Clive

On 28/10/2020 14:14, Clive Arthur wrote:
On 28/10/2020 13:25, Simon T wrote:

snipped

Block holes with scrunched up chicken wire, they don't like that.

Broken glass mixed with strong mortar also works.

Don't their wee trails show up with UV light ?. So you can
see what paths they are taking ?. Or maybe you have to spread
UV powder and let them spread it .

In message , R D S writes
On 28/10/2020 13:25, Simon T wrote:
Rat.....

Can't help you as such but the problem comes when they eat poison and
die in a void somewhere, the stink!

Mice and presumably Rats will tunnel through Rockwool/glass fibre cavity
insulation so sealing the neighbours holes worth trying. Wall trellis
and climbing plants another route.

--
Tim Lamb

On 28/10/2020 14:22, Andrew wrote:
On 28/10/2020 14:14, Clive Arthur wrote:
On 28/10/2020 13:25, Simon T wrote:

snipped

Block holes with scrunched up chicken wire, they don't like that.

Broken glass mixed with strong mortar also works.

Don't their wee trails show up with UV light ?. So you can
see what paths they are taking ?. Or maybe you have to spread
UV powder and let them spread it .

I do have a little UV torch, sadly loft insultation just shows up in
various shades of purple flecks. Difficult to tell if there's any
soiling on it.


--
Best Wishes
Simon (Dark Angel)
http://www.realmofhorror.co.uk

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On 28/10/2020 14:24, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , R D S writes
On 28/10/2020 13:25, Simon T wrote:
Rat.....

Can't help you as such but the problem comes when they eat poison and
die in a void somewhere, the stink!

Mice and presumably Rats will tunnel through Rockwool/glass fibre cavity
insulation so sealing the neighbours holes worth trying. Wall trellis
and climbing plants another route.

We're next door to a mucky chicken shop at work in a terraced building
about 200 years old.

It's one of those things i've come to accept is going to happen.

On Wednesday, October 28, 2020 at 1:25:21 PM UTC, Simon T wrote:
Last year I had a couple of mice up in my loft, which I duly caught.
However I also noticed rat droppings up there.

Noticed an end tile on the roof, where it meets the brickline, was
raised up slightly, owing to the way the edge had been cemented, so
plugged the gap up wth some expanding foam. Cleared the rat droppings up
from the loft and had no more problems since.

That was until a couple of months back when I noticed a strange smell
coming from the same corner where that tile was. I noticed that the
birds had pecked a hole in the expanding foam and had been popping in
and out of the eves, so figured the mice had got back in again.

I put the traps back up, but they didn't attract anything. Until a few
weeks back, when I noticed one of them had sprung, although nothing was
in it and the bait hadn't been touched...

Then I found more rat droppings nearby.

Anyway, I plugged the hole under the tile again and this time coated it
with bitumen, to stop the birds pecking at it. Got myself a bait box,
which I set up near the corner, where I found the droppings, and put one
of those internet security cameras which would alert me if anything came
around.

Been up there about a month, the bait hasnt been touched and nothing on
the camera. Until a few days back when the camera duly recorded a rat
sniffing about near the bait box.

Sadly it didnt go inside and take the bait.

I live in a semi-detatched house. Spoke to the neighbour, who says she
also heard something in the loft scurrying about the following morning.

So, I'm now trying to work out where this blighter is getting in and out
and what it's living on? There's no food up there, no water. I don't
believe its bitten through the foam filler, although without going up my
ladder to double check, its difficult to say 100%

On the neighbours side, there's a couple of holes in the wall from when
the previous occupants had a new bathroom fitted, but didnt bother
plugging up the gaps from when they moved the sink and bath. However,
the cavities are filled with, what appears to be, loose insulation. So
could this thing be burrowing its way in and out through the insulation?




--
Best Wishes
Simon T

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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I've caught a couple of ratty things (or big mice at any rate) with spring traps baited with peanut butter. The traps are Rentokil FR51s, got them from Homebase.

We've got an ancient house, thick rubble walls and lath and plaster and there's no way I'm putting down poison, I'd never find the corpse without a pneumatic drill and sledge hammer.

On 28/10/2020 20:29, Chris Hogg wrote:
or perhaps a Jack Russell terrier
+1
Or borrow one for a day or two.
Those dogs have rockets up there ass when it comes to finding rats.

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh84o5STysk

On 28/10/2020 18:10, Halmyre wrote:
I've caught a couple of ratty things (or big mice at any rate) with spring traps baited with peanut butter. The traps are Rentokil FR51s, got them from Homebase.

Fen mark IV are good for rats (and squirrels if used with a tunnel)

On 28 Oct 2020 at 20:29:48 GMT, "Chris Hogg" wrote:

On Wed, 28 Oct 2020 11:10:14 -0700 (PDT), Halmyre
wrote:
I've caught a couple of ratty things (or big mice at any rate) with spring
traps baited with peanut butter. The traps are Rentokil FR51s, got them from
Homebase.

We've got an ancient house, thick rubble walls and lath and plaster and
there's no way I'm putting down poison, I'd never find the corpse without a
pneumatic drill and sledge hammer.


IIRC a spring trap for rats is many times bigger, and with a much
stronger spring, than a mouse trap.

When we had cats and lived next to a farm, they regularly caught rats.
The OP should get a cat, or perhaps a Jack Russell terrier.

This is a bit like whack-a-mole, but different!
https://tinyurl.com/nraj2cv

While I am all for killing rats, the apparent excitement and pleasure the
humans got from it is very distasteful. The giveaway is that it is from a
field sports organisation. Pleasure in killing is never pretty.

--
Roger Hayter

If there is one, there are probably others. It could be its just scaling the
wall somehow and has access to a neighbouring loft. I noticed some years ago
in mine that the dividing wall is pretty naff, the chimney seems to be
holding them up either side and there are cavities here and there. This was
built in 1939. Thus far nothing worse than wasps though. No trees for the
Squirrels and the rodents seem to keep away, nothing to eat. As you say why
would they be up there? Is there a loft conversion in the block, where food
might have been kept?
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Simon T" wrote in message
...
Last year I had a couple of mice up in my loft, which I duly caught.
However I also noticed rat droppings up there.

Noticed an end tile on the roof, where it meets the brickline, was raised
up slightly, owing to the way the edge had been cemented, so plugged the
gap up wth some expanding foam. Cleared the rat droppings up from the loft
and had no more problems since.

That was until a couple of months back when I noticed a strange smell
coming from the same corner where that tile was. I noticed that the birds
had pecked a hole in the expanding foam and had been popping in and out of
the eves, so figured the mice had got back in again.

I put the traps back up, but they didn't attract anything. Until a few
weeks back, when I noticed one of them had sprung, although nothing was in
it and the bait hadn't been touched...

Then I found more rat droppings nearby.

Anyway, I plugged the hole under the tile again and this time coated it
with bitumen, to stop the birds pecking at it. Got myself a bait box,
which I set up near the corner, where I found the droppings, and put one
of those internet security cameras which would alert me if anything came
around.

Been up there about a month, the bait hasnt been touched and nothing on
the camera. Until a few days back when the camera duly recorded a rat
sniffing about near the bait box.

Sadly it didnt go inside and take the bait.

I live in a semi-detatched house. Spoke to the neighbour, who says she
also heard something in the loft scurrying about the following morning.

So, I'm now trying to work out where this blighter is getting in and out
and what it's living on? There's no food up there, no water. I don't
believe its bitten through the foam filler, although without going up my
ladder to double check, its difficult to say 100%

On the neighbours side, there's a couple of holes in the wall from when
the previous occupants had a new bathroom fitted, but didnt bother
plugging up the gaps from when they moved the sink and bath. However, the
cavities are filled with, what appears to be, loose insulation. So could
this thing be burrowing its way in and out through the insulation?




--
Best Wishes
Simon T

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On 28/10/2020 13:25, Simon T wrote:
Last year I had a couple of mice up in my loft, which I duly caught.
However I also noticed rat droppings up there.

Noticed an end tile on the roof, where it meets the brickline, was
raised up slightly, owing to the way the edge had been cemented, so
plugged the gap up wth some expanding foam. Cleared the rat droppings up
from the loft and had no more problems since.

That was until a couple of months back when I noticed a strange smell
coming from the same corner where that tile was. I noticed that the
birds had pecked a hole in the expanding foam and had been popping in
and out of the eves, so figured the mice had got back in again.

I put the traps back up, but they didn't attract anything. Until a few
weeks back, when I noticed one of them had sprung, although nothing was
in it and the bait hadn't been touched...

Then I found more rat droppings nearby.

Anyway, I plugged the hole under the tile again and this time coated it
with bitumen, to stop the birds pecking at it. Got myself a bait box,
which I set up near the corner, where I found the droppings, and put one
of those internet security cameras which would alert me if anything came
around.

Been up there about a month, the bait hasnt been touched and nothing on
the camera. Until a few days back when the camera duly recorded a rat
sniffing about near the bait box.

Sadly it didnt go inside and take the bait.

I live in a semi-detatched house. Spoke to the neighbour, who says she
also heard something in the loft scurrying about the following morning.

So, I'm now trying to work out where this blighter is getting in and out
and what it's living on? There's no food up there, no water. I don't
believe its bitten through the foam filler, although without going up my
ladder to double check, its difficult to say 100%

On the neighbours side, there's a couple of holes in the wall from when
the previous occupants had a new bathroom fitted, but didnt bother
plugging up the gaps from when they moved the sink and bath. However,
the cavities are filled with, what appears to be, loose insulation. So
could this thing be burrowing its way in and out through the insulation?


You're gonna get that rat, that's what you're a gonna do, you're gonna
GET THAT RAT ... just to show that I spotted the reference to a great
little song ;-)
Slightly more seriously, and as others have said, all you can do in that
situation is to try to ensure that Mr Rat is out and then block the
holes. Alternatively, use poison (and block the holes) if you can
tolerate a foul smell for a week or so.
I had some persistent rats in a dry-stone wall just outside the back
door. The bu&&ers dug into it and pushed-out lots of gravel from inside.
I put the gravel back through one of their entry holes at the top and
they pushed it out again at the side. Eventually vigilance, an air
rifle, and many failures, consigned one to the septic tank but the other
one was more canny. After a few weeks I spotted him/her looking out of a
gap in the wall and bagged him/her with the help of some new sights
bought for the purpose. I hate killing anything, but there was a thrill
of excitement/victory/call-it-what-you-will as I got him in the cross
hairs, pulled the trigger and watched him fall out of the hole to the
ground like a stunt actor falling out of a high window. He became food
for the septic tank.

I live in a semi-detatched house. Spoke to the neighbour, who says she
also heard something in the loft scurrying about the following morning.

So, I'm now trying to work out where this blighter is getting in and out
and what it's living on? There's no food up there, no water. I don't
believe its bitten through the foam filler, although without going up my
ladder to double check, its difficult to say 100%

On the neighbours side, there's a couple of holes in the wall from when
the previous occupants had a new bathroom fitted, but didnt bother
plugging up the gaps from when they moved the sink and bath. However,
the cavities are filled with, what appears to be, loose insulation. So
could this thing be burrowing its way in and out through the insulation?




--
Best Wishes
Simon T

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

I've caught a couple of ratty things (or big mice at any rate) with spring traps
baited with peanut butter. The traps are Rentokil FR51s, got them from Homebase.

We've got an ancient house, thick rubble walls and lath and plaster and there's
no way I'm putting down poison, I'd never find the corpse without a pneumatic
drill and sledge hammer.


These ones are superb, no messing, ratty or mousey disturbing the bait
on these ones and its lights out for ratty or mousey! Saw one in
operation a while ago its like hitting them with a sledgehammer!

Do mind your fingers!!

Peanut butter is one of the best baits around too..


https://www.toolstation.com/sure-set...archstr=rat%20
traps
--
Tony Sayer


Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

On Thu, 29 Oct 2020 09:34:36 -0000, Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) wrote:

If there is one, there are probably others.

No doubt about it and if there's two the chances are there will be
alot more than two fairly quickly. B-)

As you say why would they be up there?

This time of year it's warm and dry... They aren't daft, they come in
from the cold and wet.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 28/10/2020 20:29, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Wed, 28 Oct 2020 11:10:14 -0700 (PDT), Halmyre
wrote:
I've caught a couple of ratty things (or big mice at any rate) with spring traps baited with peanut butter. The traps are Rentokil FR51s, got them from Homebase.

We've got an ancient house, thick rubble walls and lath and plaster and there's no way I'm putting down poison, I'd never find the corpse without a pneumatic drill and sledge hammer.


IIRC a spring trap for rats is many times bigger, and with a much
stronger spring, than a mouse trap.

a big rat is as big as a small cat or rabbit.
Normally you need a cage trap for them,
Mice can be amazingly big if well fed on table scraps and sleeping
lazily in house insulation.
Almost up to guinea pig size -0 certainly bigger than a hamster!

When we had cats and lived next to a farm, they regularly caught rats.
The OP should get a cat, or perhaps a Jack Russell terrier.

Great ratters are JRs.
This is a bit like whack-a-mole, but different!
https://tinyurl.com/nraj2cv


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLfDPZ2SnlU

--
€œit should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
(or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
you live neither in Joseph Stalins Communist era, nor in the Orwellian
utopia of 1984.€�

Vaclav Klaus

On 29/10/2020 00:46, Roger Hayter wrote:
While I am all for killing rats, the apparent excitement and pleasure the
humans got from it is very distasteful. The giveaway is that it is from a
field sports organisation. Pleasure in killing is never pretty.

What a snowflake you are.

--
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

Jonathan Swift.

"Roger Hayter" wrote in message
...

While I am all for killing rats, the apparent excitement and pleasure the
humans got from it is very distasteful. The giveaway is that it is from a
field sports organisation. Pleasure in killing is never pretty.

Looks as if you've had no takers then. Maybe he's having a rest.

Rats are interesting. Even a person with no hatred, or even dislike
of any animal might be persuaded to take a dislike of rats solely
on account of their gnawing away at the wounds of still living
soldiers in WWI. That and all the "Black Death" stuff, I suppose.

However some written accounts of WWI showed soldiers as viewing rats
in just the same as any other life form, including the Germans.
All doomed to sharing that same bleak existence in the trenches.
With everyone and everything, being reduced to doing what it, or
they had to do, to stay alive.

While elsewhere there are plenty of accounts of how rats make great
pets on account of their being very intelligent etc.

..
michael adams

....

On 29 Oct 2020 00:46:01 GMT, Roger Hayter wrote:

While I am all for killing rats, the apparent excitement and pleasure
the humans got from it is very distasteful.

You're forgetting that we are animal just like any other and one that
is a hunter. Modern society has a veneer of "civilisation" but that's
all it is, a veneer. Not very far down is the hunter and creature
that will kill to feed or protect its family group and immediate
community.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 29 Oct 2020 00:46:01 GMT, Roger Hayter wrote:

snip

This is a bit like whack-a-mole, but different!
https://tinyurl.com/nraj2cv

While I am all for killing rats, the apparent excitement and pleasure the
humans got from it is very distasteful.

Agreed, I could watch it whilst the dogs were doing their ting (till a
couple were playing tug-o-war with a rat) but it was when the 'humans'
got involved it was a bit sick.

The giveaway is that it is from a
field sports organisation. Pleasure in killing is never pretty.

I think it comes from a general disconnection, often as a function of
your circumstance / background, as typically with farmers and
certainly those who can use the word 'sport' in the death of any
animal (even those described / categorised as vermin).

Like, I wonder if someone who has, had or dealt with fancy rats could
kill 'wild' rats in that way, like it really was a live
'Whack-a-mole', and if they couldn't, suggesting that it's not the
species that's the issue but just your situation with it.

Mum noticed some rats in her back garden and it turned out they had
found the spare rabbit food in the shed. Put that in a rat proof
container and the rats went away.

Cheers, T i m

On Thu, 29 Oct 2020 17:21:47 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On 29 Oct 2020 00:46:01 GMT, Roger Hayter wrote:

While I am all for killing rats, the apparent excitement and pleasure
the humans got from it is very distasteful.

You're forgetting that we are animal just like any other and one that
is a hunter.

When did you last (have to) go hunting for your food then Dave? ;-)

https://ibb.co/KhtfMnc

And 'as hunters' we aren't very well equipped are we? We can't easily
digest raw meat and we certainly can't easily consume fur, feathers,
skin or bone and we can't catch much without traps or tools. So we
aren't 'natural' carnivore / hunters (like most other obligate
carnivores are) but we might be gatherers in that we could get the
stuff you could forage for (like shellfish) or be opportunist re
finding the remains of other animal kills when we learned how to cook
meat.

We learned how to do all that by mostly living off fruits, nuts and
berries of course. ;-)

Modern society has a veneer of "civilisation" but that's
all it is, a veneer.

Nor for all of us. Some of those of us who do have the choice have
chosen to not exploit animals, have seen though that indoctrination
and try to eat and live more responsibly.

https://ibb.co/S7CbSh9

Not very far down is the hunter and creature
that will kill to feed or protect its family group and immediate
community.

Yup ... and generally when there is no other choice.

'Man' has (or should have in more cases) used that big brain of our to
evolved to make better uses of the resources and reduce the pollution
whilst being able to feed more people and do so more healthily. Are we
are, just the message is taking a while to sink in (of course).

Cheers, T i m

On 28/10/2020 13:25, Simon T wrote:

On the neighbours side, there's a couple of holes in the wall from when
the previous occupants had a new bathroom fitted, but didnt bother
plugging up the gaps from when they moved the sink and bath. However,
the cavities are filled with, what appears to be, loose insulation. So
could this thing be burrowing its way in and out through the insulation?


OK, minor update.

Have cemented up the holes on the neighbours side. If it was getting in
and out through there, it won't be any more.

Have also blobbed a bit of peanut butter on the bait blocks in the box,
so if the blighter is still inside, hopefully that will entice it to
take the bait next time it goes on a food hunt.

Nothing on the monitor so far, so we shall see.

--
Best Wishes
Simon (Dark Angel)
http://www.realmofhorror.co.uk

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This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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On 29/10/2020 18:23, T i m wrote:
And 'as hunters' we aren't very well equipped are we? We can't easily
digest raw meat and we certainly can't easily consume fur, feathers,
skin or bone and we can't catch much without traps or tools. So we
aren't 'natural' carnivore / hunters (like most other obligate
carnivores are) but we might be gatherers in that we could get the
stuff you could forage for (like shellfish) or be opportunist re
finding the remains of other animal kills when we learned how to cook
meat.

Our closest relatives the Bonobos and Chimpanzees have raw meat in their
diets.

Andy

On Thu, 29 Oct 2020 21:54:33 +0000, Vir Campestris
wrote:

On 29/10/2020 18:23, T i m wrote:
And 'as hunters' we aren't very well equipped are we? We can't easily
digest raw meat and we certainly can't easily consume fur, feathers,
skin or bone and we can't catch much without traps or tools. So we
aren't 'natural' carnivore / hunters (like most other obligate
carnivores are) but we might be gatherers in that we could get the
stuff you could forage for (like shellfish) or be opportunist re
finding the remains of other animal kills when we learned how to cook
meat.

Our closest relatives the Bonobos and Chimpanzees have raw meat in their
diets.

Sure ... so how often do *you* eat raw meat then? There is some
hilarious footage on Youtube of a carnist activist talking to Ed
Winters and is sucking on the same lump of meat all the time they are
talking. ;-)

It's the same as those who quote that dogs evolved from wolves , which
they did, but living alongside man for thousands of years has meant
they have evolved so can now process starch in a way wolves can't.

In the same way that our consumption of meat and so the B12 the
animals were producing (because of the cobalt in the environment
'then') means we mutated and started producing ours in the wrong
intestine. ;-(

So whilst we may share many of the characteristics of animals similar
to us, we can also be different in subtle ways that can make a big
difference on what we can (or can't) do.

One massive thing we can do and most animals still can't is buy stuff
in supermarkets. They don't generally have the choice, they don't have
the excuse. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 29/10/2020 21:54, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 29/10/2020 18:23, T i m wrote:
And 'as hunters' we aren't very well equipped are we? We can't easily
digest raw meat and we certainly can't easily consume fur, feathers,
skin or bone and we can't catch much without traps or tools. So we
aren't 'natural' carnivore / hunters (like most other obligate
carnivores are) but we might be gatherers in that we could get the
stuff you could forage for (like shellfish) or be opportunist re
finding the remains of other animal kills when we learned how to cook
meat.

Our closest relatives the Bonobos and Chimpanzees have raw meat in their
diets.

Andy
and in fact we can easily digest raw meat, eggs and fish.
The piles of feathers on my lawn show that other carnivores do not eat
feathers either, and cat fur balls show they can digest fur, either

In short T i m is, as usual, constructing a fairy story to suit his
prejudices.

--
No Apple devices were knowingly used in the preparation of this post.

On 29/10/2020 18:23, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 29 Oct 2020 17:21:47 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

You're forgetting that we are animal just like any other and one that
is a hunter.

When did you last (have to) go hunting for your food then Dave? ;-)

And 'as hunters' we aren't very well equipped are we? We can't easily
digest raw meat and we certainly can't easily consume fur, feathers,
skin or bone and we can't catch much without traps or tools. So we
aren't 'natural' carnivore / hunters (like most other obligate
carnivores are) but we might be gatherers in that we could get the
stuff you could forage for (like shellfish) or be opportunist re
finding the remains of other animal kills when we learned how to cook
meat.

What a wastrel you are.

Meat is eaten
Fur is used for clothing
Feathers for insulation, tools, or decoration
Skin used for clothing
Bone for tools or decoration.

With your disconnected-background throwaway approach, you'd never
survive an apocalypse, would you, especially as your vital dietary
supplements would no longer be available.

--
Spike

On Fri, 30 Oct 2020 09:31:32 +0000, Chris Hogg wrote:

On Fri, 30 Oct 2020 08:35:37 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 29/10/2020 21:54, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 29/10/2020 18:23, T i m wrote:
And 'as hunters' we aren't very well equipped are we? We can't easily
digest raw meat and we certainly can't easily consume fur, feathers,
skin or bone and we can't catch much without traps or tools. So we
aren't 'natural' carnivore / hunters (like most other obligate
carnivores are) but we might be gatherers in that we could get the
stuff you could forage for (like shellfish) or be opportunist re
finding the remains of other animal kills when we learned how to cook
meat.

Our closest relatives the Bonobos and Chimpanzees have raw meat in their
diets.

Andy
and in fact we can easily digest raw meat, eggs and fish.
The piles of feathers on my lawn show that other carnivores do not eat
feathers either, and cat fur balls show they can digest fur, either

In short T i m is, as usual, constructing a fairy story to suit his
prejudices.

'cat fur balls show they *can't* digest fur'. There, corrected it for
you.

It's very easy to cite example of things that don't fit a particular
statement when the statement is generally true. A dog (for example)
*can* eat a whole rabbit, all of it and simply pass the bits it can't
digest in time through.

Just because the animals that are killing things and leaving some of
their remains on TNP's lawn goes no way to contradict my statement.

We can probably digest bone, given time.

Except that time isn't under our control is it so in general we can't.
We can't because our digestive systems aren't strong enough to do so,
unlike obligate carnivores and opportunist meat eating omnivores like
dogs.

Kodak used to make the
gelatin for their photographic plates etc. by digesting cattle bone
chips in fairly dilute HCl, about pH 3.5 IIRC, when the calcium
phosphate dissolves leaving rubbery lumps of gelatin that are filtered
off, and the calcium phosphate re-precipitated by raising the pH of
the filtrate.

Yum. ;-)

Whether that process is still used, I don't know; I
visited a plant somewhere in the Eastern US many years ago and saw it,
but that plant is closed now.

For good reason by the sound of it. ;-)

Stomach acid is significantly stronger than used there, although the
process took several days, and I doubt bone would remain in your
stomach for long enough unless it was very finely ground, but in
principle it could happen.

Sure ... but doesn't, because we *certainly aren't* obligate
carnivores and aren't even equipped to catch, dispatch, butcher and
consume most meats without the aid of tools (that aren't part of our
bodies as they are with those animals that are able to consume raw
meat, like claws and *real* canine teeth and short but strong
digestive systems[1]).

Cheers, T i m

[1] Designed to be short to avoid the meat 'going off' in the
digestive system, makes sense given many predator animals often won't
eat very dead prey (unless they are very hungry), unless it's obvious
that it's a recent kill of another predator or accident.

p.s. I saw a thing on TV the other day where a lizard, about to be
predated by a snake, flipped itself on its back and pretended it was
dead and the snake slithered on past. ;-)

On 30/10/2020 10:33, T i m wrote:

Sure ... but doesn't, because we *certainly aren't* obligate
carnivores and aren't even equipped to catch, dispatch, butcher and
consume most meats without the aid of tools (that aren't part of our
bodies as they are with those animals that are able to consume raw
meat, like claws and *real* canine teeth and short but strong
digestive systems[1]).

That came about because humans developed superior brains instead of big
teeth and so thought their way through these issues instead, subjugating
fire, developing tools, undertaking agriculture and animal husbandry,
living in communities, etc. Just because virtue-signalling vegans like
you are now attempting to put that particular toothpaste back in the
tube doesn't make it any the less true. We are not obligate
shelter-dwellers, but a pound to a pinch of B12 says you won't be
abandoning your warm, dry, refrigerator-equipped, beer-swilling
house-living style any time soon, to live under a bush instead.

--
Spike

On 29/10/2020 13:13, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Thu, 29 Oct 2020 09:34:36 -0000, Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) wrote:

If there is one, there are probably others.

No doubt about it and if there's two the chances are there will be
alot more than two fairly quickly. B-)

As you say why would they be up there?

This time of year it's warm and dry... They aren't daft, they come in
from the cold and wet.


I saw about 6 in the roof space (not really a loft) I was in today.
There were probably more but that is how many I saw run away.

Plenty of rat poison around, plenty of voids.

--
Adam