Just doing my winter disaster planning.

One item was to be able to run a small generator to keep the freezer going
in the event of a short power cut.

This would have to be outside for ventilation purposes.

Would also double up for the caravan if we are ever off grid and need to
run the generator in the rain.

There are lots of generator covers on Amazon for under £20 but it is not
clear to me if they can be left over the generator whilst it is running.

Anyone have something similar which works?

Cheers



Dave R



--
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David wrote:

a small generator to keep the freezer going
in the event of a short power cut.

freezers cope during short power cuts simply by being kept closed.

Andy Burns Wrote in message:
David wrote:

a small generator to keep the freezer going
in the event of a short power cut.

freezers cope during short power cuts simply by being kept closed.


Unless they've just been topped up with roadkill/non-compliant
towny-tarts....
--
Jimk


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
David wrote:

a small generator to keep the freezer going
in the event of a short power cut.

freezers cope during short power cuts simply by being kept closed.

apparently in Canada, at one point, freezers had a solenoid lock (which
could be overriden manually) to stop you opening the lid/door if there was
a power cut.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 27/10/2020 17:02, Andy Burns wrote:
David wrote:

a small generator to keep the freezer going
in the event of a short power cut.

freezers cope during short power cuts simply by being kept closed.
+1


--
€œThere are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isnt true; the
other is to refuse to believe what is true.€�

€”Soren Kierkegaard

On Tue, 27 Oct 2020 17:44:46 +0000, charles wrote:

In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
David wrote:

a small generator to keep the freezer going in the event of a short
power cut.

freezers cope during short power cuts simply by being kept closed.

apparently in Canada, at one point, freezers had a solenoid lock (which
could be overriden manually) to stop you opening the lid/door if there
was a power cut.

Assume that the power cut may be more than an hour or so and I would
really like to eat.....

I have worked out that in a prolonged power cut I can stay warm with the
log burner and even cook on it.

Light from candles or torches.

The freezer is the one thing which has a major time limit.
Three days is usually quoted for a modern freezer if you don't open the
door.
So that is the risk that I am addressing.

So, back to the original question.....

Cheers


Dave R

--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 7 Pro x64

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David Wrote in message:
On Tue, 27 Oct 2020 17:44:46 +0000, charles wrote:

In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
David wrote:

a small generator to keep the freezer going in the event of a short
power cut.

freezers cope during short power cuts simply by being kept closed.

apparently in Canada, at one point, freezers had a solenoid lock (which
could be overriden manually) to stop you opening the lid/door if there
was a power cut.

Assume that the power cut may be more than an hour or so and I would
really like to eat.....

I have worked out that in a prolonged power cut I can stay warm with the
log burner and even cook on it.

Light from candles or torches.

The freezer is the one thing which has a major time limit.
Three days is usually quoted for a modern freezer if you don't open the
door.
So that is the risk that I am addressing.

Imagining?

Think laterally!
Do you only eat frozen food?
--
Jimk


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On 27 Oct 2020 16:41:33 GMT, David wrote:

One item was to be able to run a small generator to keep the freezer
going ...

"small generator" How big is small? The small 750 W two stroke
jobbies can struggle with freezers/fridges as they don't have enough
welly to start the compressor motor.

... in the event of a short power cut.

Define "short". The DNO's are pretty good at bringing people back on
supply by altering the distribution switching. The chances are a
power cut will only be an hour or two. If you just happen to be in
the section with the fault it might take a while longer but probably
less than 12 hours. Strangely 12 hours off supply is when most
compensation kicks in...

A modern freezer, even opened once or twice to quickly grab
something, won't be particulary bothered for 12 hours, maybe longer.

There are lots of generator covers on Amazon for under £20 but it is
not clear to me if they can be left over the generator whilst it is
running.

Are they heat/fire proof? How do the exhaust gases get out? Good flow
of cooling air in? They all look nice covers for a plain rectangular
box. But when running you'll have the CEE output connector sticking
out somwhere...

Trying to remember what I did, if anything, the last time I needed
the genset and it was raining. I suspect it wasn't much more than a
bit of weighted down poly sheet covering the top and down the exposed
side over the connector/control panel and down the exposed end. Oh
look there's the rountuit to build a generator cover/shelter. B-)

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article l.net,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On 27 Oct 2020 16:41:33 GMT, David wrote:

One item was to be able to run a small generator to keep the freezer
going ...

"small generator" How big is small?

[Snip]
When I was a student, I worked in a factory which made motors and
generators. their small motors were at least 18 inches in diameter,

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

As folk seem to be being silly in parts of this thread. I am going back a
way here, but I distinctly recall the up and down vents in a generator cover
to stop the water getting in while air still did. It did deaden some of the
sound, but maybe that is going to be the issue with such devices, what lets
air in, lets sound out and you can pad the innards as much as you like, but
there is always a trade off. These generators were running lights in a
factory after it had partly burned down, so nothing very fussy on cps etc.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"David" wrote in message
...
Just doing my winter disaster planning.

One item was to be able to run a small generator to keep the freezer going
in the event of a short power cut.

This would have to be outside for ventilation purposes.

Would also double up for the caravan if we are ever off grid and need to
run the generator in the rain.

There are lots of generator covers on Amazon for under £20 but it is not
clear to me if they can be left over the generator whilst it is running.

Anyone have something similar which works?

Cheers



Dave R



--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 7 Pro x64

--
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On Tuesday, 27 October 2020 16:41:38 UTC, David WE Roberts (Google) wrote:
There are lots of generator covers on Amazon for under £20 but it is not
clear to me if they can be left over the generator whilst it is running.
Anyone have something similar which works?

If you want to reduce noise, fitting a baffle box to the exhaust, and surrounding the genny with panels similar to those used by acoustic fencing, should help somewhat.

https://www.echobarrier.co.uk/product/s1/

Owain

On 27/10/2020 16:41, David wrote:
Just doing my winter disaster planning.

One item was to be able to run a small generator to keep the freezer going
in the event of a short power cut.

For a short powercut you really just need to keep the freezer door
closed and then put it on superfreeze for a bit when power is restored.

After the first day it is worth rigging up local power. Most power cuts
are usually shorter than that unless something goes very badly wrong.

This would have to be outside for ventilation purposes.

Would also double up for the caravan if we are ever off grid and need to
run the generator in the rain.

There are lots of generator covers on Amazon for under £20 but it is not
clear to me if they can be left over the generator whilst it is running.

Anyone have something similar which works?

I keep mine under a cardboard box when not in use and operating just
inside the garage door to keep the rain off (door open). If I didn't
have a convenient garage then it would be up against the house wall
under a piece of rigid PVC foam plastic sheet to keep the rain off.

I think mine claims to be weatherproof but we get a lot of bad weather
around here usually at about the same time as the power fails.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Wed, 28 Oct 2020 08:44:21 -0000, Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) wrote:

I am going back a way here, but I distinctly recall the up and down
vents in a generator cover to stop the water getting in while air still
did.

Louver. Though wind driven rain will get past a single louver and
powder snow won't even notice it's there. B-)

Back to back louvers with a gap in the middle between the slats would
probably keep most rain out, not so sure about powder snow.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article ,
Martin Brown wrote:
On 27/10/2020 16:41, David wrote:
Just doing my winter disaster planning.

One item was to be able to run a small generator to keep the freezer
going in the event of a short power cut.

For a short powercut you really just need to keep the freezer door
closed and then put it on superfreeze for a bit when power is restored.

After the first day it is worth rigging up local power. Most power cuts
are usually shorter than that unless something goes very badly wrong.


about 6 years ago there was a cable fault in out road. An emergency
generator was brought in and coupled up to our house at about 1am. had it
for 4 days.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On Tue, 27 Oct 2020 23:51:57 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

snip

There are lots of generator covers on Amazon for under £20 but it is
not clear to me if they can be left over the generator whilst it is
running.

Are they heat/fire proof? How do the exhaust gases get out? Good flow
of cooling air in? They all look nice covers for a plain rectangular
box. But when running you'll have the CEE output connector sticking
out somwhere...

Trying to remember what I did, if anything, the last time I needed
the genset and it was raining. I suspect it wasn't much more than a
bit of weighted down poly sheet covering the top and down the exposed
side over the connector/control panel and down the exposed end. Oh
look there's the rountuit to build a generator cover/shelter. B-)

I think someone (on Youtube) just positioned sheets of wood sloping
towards the generator (I can't remember if it had a top to it) and
that both allowed it to breath but drastically reduced the sound
levels.

I think people tend to makes drop-over lids with baffles out of dense
material (ply / chipboard) and with a mains powered input fan at the
inlet (powered by the genny), ensuring the air is kept moving in the
right direction.

I've always hankered after one of the Honda suitcase genny's but can't
justify it's cost for it's use (I have a Honda powered 3KVA 'open
frame' genny I've only used a couple of times).

Cheers, T i m

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Martin Brown wrote:
On 27/10/2020 16:41, David wrote:
Just doing my winter disaster planning.

One item was to be able to run a small generator to keep the freezer
going in the event of a short power cut.

For a short powercut you really just need to keep the freezer door
closed and then put it on superfreeze for a bit when power is restored.

After the first day it is worth rigging up local power. Most power cuts
are usually shorter than that unless something goes very badly wrong.


about 6 years ago there was a cable fault in out road. An emergency
generator was brought in and coupled up to our house at about 1am. had it
for 4 days.

When the electricity company were doing some work on high voltage feeds to
various substations in the area, they brought in loads of huge generators
(they moved them from one village to another as the work progressed) and fed
groups of houses from the genny. The constant throbbing of the diesel
engines, day and night, was a real problem. I think our power was on local
feed for about a week.


I've wondered about getting a UPS for electronic equipment that reboots at
the slightest interruption. We went through a phase last year of getting
brief ( 1 second) power breaks every few days - or maybe a sequence of them
every 30 seconds or so. The electricity company had not been going round
pruning overhanging trees near HV lines, and when one touched a wire (eg in
stronger than normal wind) a circuit breaker would trip and reconnect.

How good are UPSs at providing mains that is sufficiently glitch-free, when
switching to and from battery, that computers don't notice? The only UPS
I've tried to use was one that my wife bought at the same time as her big
PC, but we never got round to trying for a couple of years - and when we
did, the battery would not provide mains, even with negligible load, for
more than about a second. The battery was either dead on arrival or else had
failed through lack of use (maybe through being stored with no charge). So
I've never seen how seamless the changeover is from mains to battery. I
presume they are more sophisticated than a relay, where contact bounce, even
if mains cycles match, may cause problems. Do most UPSs run the inverter all
the time (without taking power from it) so it is ready at a moment's notice,
locked to mains frequency and phase for instant switchover. I presume the
big problem with a UPS is when the supply is switched back to mains, because
the inverter will have been running off a free-running oscillator that will
be a different frequency so there will be a discontinuity at the point of
switchover. Or do UPSs stay on battery after the mains has returned,
tweaking the local frequency and phase gradually until they are locked to
mains and then switch without a discontinuity.

This was a cheap consumer 700 VA APC UPS, so probably one that switched
over, rather than one that was always running off battery and inverter, with
the battery kept charged by the mains but with no direct connection from
input to output.

On 27/10/2020 23:51, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On 27 Oct 2020 16:41:33 GMT, David wrote:

One item was to be able to run a small generator to keep the freezer
going ...

"small generator" How big is small? The small 750 W two stroke
jobbies can struggle with freezers/fridges as they don't have enough
welly to start the compressor motor.

That is a good point even a 1.5kW unit slows briefly when the freezer
motor comes on due to the very high surge current. A smaller unit might
well cutout to protect itself from a perceived overload conditions.

The load presented by the compressor motor from a standing start looks
very much like a dead short until it spins up.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 28 Oct 2020 at 10:24:31 GMT, ""NY"" wrote:

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Martin Brown wrote:
On 27/10/2020 16:41, David wrote:
Just doing my winter disaster planning.

One item was to be able to run a small generator to keep the freezer
going in the event of a short power cut.

For a short powercut you really just need to keep the freezer door
closed and then put it on superfreeze for a bit when power is restored.

After the first day it is worth rigging up local power. Most power cuts
are usually shorter than that unless something goes very badly wrong.


about 6 years ago there was a cable fault in out road. An emergency
generator was brought in and coupled up to our house at about 1am. had it
for 4 days.

When the electricity company were doing some work on high voltage feeds to
various substations in the area, they brought in loads of huge generators
(they moved them from one village to another as the work progressed) and fed
groups of houses from the genny. The constant throbbing of the diesel
engines, day and night, was a real problem. I think our power was on local
feed for about a week.


I've wondered about getting a UPS for electronic equipment that reboots at
the slightest interruption. We went through a phase last year of getting
brief ( 1 second) power breaks every few days - or maybe a sequence of them
every 30 seconds or so. The electricity company had not been going round
pruning overhanging trees near HV lines, and when one touched a wire (eg in
stronger than normal wind) a circuit breaker would trip and reconnect.

How good are UPSs at providing mains that is sufficiently glitch-free, when
switching to and from battery, that computers don't notice? The only UPS
I've tried to use was one that my wife bought at the same time as her big
PC, but we never got round to trying for a couple of years - and when we
did, the battery would not provide mains, even with negligible load, for
more than about a second. The battery was either dead on arrival or else had
failed through lack of use (maybe through being stored with no charge). So
I've never seen how seamless the changeover is from mains to battery. I
presume they are more sophisticated than a relay, where contact bounce, even
if mains cycles match, may cause problems. Do most UPSs run the inverter all
the time (without taking power from it) so it is ready at a moment's notice,
locked to mains frequency and phase for instant switchover. I presume the
big problem with a UPS is when the supply is switched back to mains, because
the inverter will have been running off a free-running oscillator that will
be a different frequency so there will be a discontinuity at the point of
switchover. Or do UPSs stay on battery after the mains has returned,
tweaking the local frequency and phase gradually until they are locked to
mains and then switch without a discontinuity.

This was a cheap consumer 700 VA APC UPS, so probably one that switched
over, rather than one that was always running off battery and inverter, with
the battery kept charged by the mains but with no direct connection from
input to output.

As you say, most consumer UPSs only switch on the inverter when power is lost.
In practice most PC power supplies seem to cope without catastrophic glitches
on their output when switching on and off. I suspect there are enough
capacitors on the DC outputs to maintain the voltage for the tens of
milliseconds the mains supply is disrupted. There are actually standards for
this which good quality PSUs will meet.

Also as you say, an SLA UPS battery will die if left to self-discharge for a
year or two, so you never had a fair test.


--
Roger Hayter

On Wed, 28 Oct 2020 10:10:48 +0000, T i m wrote:

I think people tend to makes drop-over lids with baffles out of dense
material (ply / chipboard) and with a mains powered input fan at the
inlet (powered by the genny), ensuring the air is kept moving in the
right direction.

I'd want a waterproof lid, to prevent rain dripping down off the fuel
tank/cover plates into the alternator or wiring, some of which is
enclosed but not by anything I'd consider water proof. As part of
guaranteeing a mild, storm free winter I ought to make something...
I've off cuts of onduline that would do for the top. Yes I know not
exactly fire proof but it'd be well away from the hot bit's like
exhuast.

I've always hankered after one of the Honda suitcase genny's but can't
justify it's cost for it's use ...

Yeah, I'd really like a 2 kVA one. I've used then for work on
ocassion, they are wonderfully quiet, light (one arm carry) and
produce "proper" mains. But I'll have to live with my fing noisey,
heavy (as in glued to the ground), diesel set. Being diesel I can at
least run it on red, instead of paying nearly 60p/l of road fuel
duty.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 27/10/2020 16:41, David wrote:

Just doing my winter disaster planning.

One item was to be able to run a small generator to keep the freezer going
in the event of a short power cut.

Here's a low-cost alternative to keeping your freezer cold for short
periods.
without running a genny.

The science bit:

Water ice has a comparatively massive Latent Heat of Melting, at 334kJ/kg,
which can be used to hold the freezer contents at its melting temperature
until all the ice has melted.

Use this Latent Heat of Melting by employing a liquid that is
frozen at the normal freezer internal temperature, say -18degC, but
which melts at perhaps -15 degC, using that Latent Heat of Melting to
keep the freezer contents at that temperature.

The technology bit:

A NaCl salt solution of 220g/litre freezes at -15degC, and a mixture of
propylene glycol and water in a ratio of 30/70 glycol/water freezes at
-16.6 degC. Both of these would use that lovely ice-to-water transition
to keep the freezer at their respective temperatures until it has all
liquefied.

In practice:

4 x 500ml bottles of NaCl solution as described will demand 668kJ to fully
melt. There are 3600 kJ in a kWh, so if one's freezer uses a typical
1kWh/day,
the 668kJ would be equivalent to running it for 5.4 hours.
Use more bottles for a large freezer.

Some points to note:

- Don't use ethylene glycol for this application
- Allow for expansion as the solution initially freezes.
- Water in ice form has a specific heat capacity of only 2.1 kJ/kgK.



--
Spike

In article , NY wrote:
"charles" wrote in message
...
In article , Martin Brown
wrote:
On 27/10/2020 16:41, David wrote:
Just doing my winter disaster planning.

One item was to be able to run a small generator to keep the freezer
going in the event of a short power cut.

For a short powercut you really just need to keep the freezer door
closed and then put it on superfreeze for a bit when power is restored.

After the first day it is worth rigging up local power. Most power
cuts are usually shorter than that unless something goes very badly
wrong.


about 6 years ago there was a cable fault in out road. An emergency
generator was brought in and coupled up to our house at about 1am. had
it for 4 days.

When the electricity company were doing some work on high voltage feeds
to various substations in the area, they brought in loads of huge
generators (they moved them from one village to another as the work
progressed) and fed groups of houses from the genny. The constant
throbbing of the diesel engines, day and night, was a real problem. I
think our power was on local feed for about a week.


I've wondered about getting a UPS for electronic equipment that reboots
at the slightest interruption. We went through a phase last year of
getting brief ( 1 second) power breaks every few days - or maybe a
sequence of them every 30 seconds or so. The electricity company had not
been going round pruning overhanging trees near HV lines, and when one
touched a wire (eg in stronger than normal wind) a circuit breaker would
trip and reconnect.

How good are UPSs at providing mains that is sufficiently glitch-free,
when switching to and from battery, that computers don't notice? The
only UPS I've tried to use was one that my wife bought at the same time
as her big PC, but we never got round to trying for a couple of years -
and when we did, the battery would not provide mains, even with
negligible load, for more than about a second. The battery was either
dead on arrival or else had failed through lack of use (maybe through
being stored with no charge). So I've never seen how seamless the
changeover is from mains to battery. I presume they are more
sophisticated than a relay, where contact bounce, even if mains cycles
match, may cause problems. Do most UPSs run the inverter all the time
(without taking power from it) so it is ready at a moment's notice,
locked to mains frequency and phase for instant switchover. I presume the
big problem with a UPS is when the supply is switched back to mains,
because the inverter will have been running off a free-running
oscillator that will be a different frequency so there will be a
discontinuity at the point of switchover. Or do UPSs stay on battery
after the mains has returned, tweaking the local frequency and phase
gradually until they are locked to mains and then switch without a
discontinuity.

This was a cheap consumer 700 VA APC UPS, so probably one that switched
over, rather than one that was always running off battery and inverter,
with the battery kept charged by the mains but with no direct connection
from input to output.

I originally got a UPS because we suffered from 'brownouts' at night which
locked up my, then, modem. There have been the occasional loss of mains
since then and both my Acer Windows machine and my ARMX6 ( RISC OS) have
happily carried on working. an APC UPS

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On Wed, 28 Oct 2020 10:24:31 -0000, NY wrote:

How good are UPSs at providing mains that is sufficiently glitch-free,
when switching to and from battery, that computers don't notice?

That's what they are designed to do and there is a cycle or two of
stored energy in the PSU anyway.

we never got round to trying for a couple of years - and when we did,
the battery would not provide mains, even with negligible load, for
more than about a second. The battery was either dead on arrival or else
had failed through lack of use (maybe through being stored with no
charge).

Or simply self discharged. Did you leave it powered up for a day or
two, it might have recovered. If not the batteries can normally be
replaced.

So I've never seen how seamless the changeover is from mains to battery.
I presume they are more sophisticated than a relay, where contact
bounce, even if mains cycles match, may cause problems.

Judging by the clicks and clunks my small APC unit makes on switching
to battery or voltage reduction/boost mode it's simple relays. The
short disturbance isn't a problem.

Do most UPSs run the inverter all the time (without taking power from
it) so it is ready at a moment's notice,

Most cheap UPS's are "off line" in that the power normaly goes
straight through, possibly with some boost or buck done by tap
switching on the invertor transformer. The invertor electronics is
probably running all the time but not used, the battery is of course
maintained.

Other UPS's are "on line". The power out is from the batteries and
invertor at all times and is thus closely regulated and "clean". The
battery "charger" has to be able to provide the full load of the UPs
and charge the battery at suitably high rate to restore the output in
a sensible time after it has shut down for low battery. Ideally it
also needs to switch to a "maintenance mode" when the battery is
charged.

... locked to mains frequency and phase for instant switchover. I
presume the big problem with a UPS is when the supply is switched back
to mains, because the inverter will have been running off a free-running
oscillator that will be a different frequency so there will be a
discontinuity at the point of switchover.

Your over thinking this, at least for the small "domestic" UPS's of a
few kVA. Larger ones, 10's to 1,000's of kVA are a different kettle
of fish all together. B-) The glitch caused by a break before make
relay is not big enough to worry yer average PC or most other kit. If
kit is that sensitive normal glitches on the raw mains would be
giving it problems.

Or do UPSs stay on battery after the mains has returned, tweaking the
local frequency and phase gradually until they are locked to mains and
then switch without a discontinuity.

For small UP's over thinking again B-)

This was a cheap consumer 700 VA APC UPS, so probably one that switched
over,

Yep if that was the "Smart" variation it would be similar as the one
I have. I say similar as mine was manfactured 11/03/98 (is that March
or November I wonder?). 2 x 7 AHr 12 V SLAs easy to replace. It's on
it's 4 or 5th set as until I "got at it" it would cook the batteries
in around 4 years. Current set were fitted after I "got at it" in Mar
14 and are still good.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Wed, 28 Oct 2020 12:09:28 +0000, Spike wrote:

Use this Latent Heat of Melting by employing a liquid that is
frozen at the normal freezer internal temperature, say -18degC, but
which melts at perhaps -15 degC, using that Latent Heat of Melting to
keep the freezer contents at that temperature.

Some freezers have large sealed "ice blocks" already. The old
fridge/freezer had two about 9 x 15 x 1 inches(*). The up right
freezer has one about 15 x 5 x 1 inches, along with a few standard
cool box ones. The small cheapo chest freezer doesn't but then it is
a "basics" model... The replacement but frost free fridge freezer
doesn't but I guess it could be buried away inside somewhere or as
it's a newer device has better insulation and doesn't need the extra
help to meet the required "without power cold time".

(*) They didn't go to the fridge/freezer dump...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Wed, 28 Oct 2020 11:52:27 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Wed, 28 Oct 2020 10:10:48 +0000, T i m wrote:

I think people tend to makes drop-over lids with baffles out of dense
material (ply / chipboard) and with a mains powered input fan at the
inlet (powered by the genny), ensuring the air is kept moving in the
right direction.

I'd want a waterproof lid, to prevent rain dripping down off the fuel
tank/cover plates into the alternator or wiring, some of which is
enclosed but not by anything I'd consider water proof.

As would I, yet you often see these things out in all weathers
completely unprotected, much like a motorcycle engine or British
Seagull outboard motor. ;-)

As part of
guaranteeing a mild, storm free winter I ought to make something...
I've off cuts of onduline that would do for the top. Yes I know not
exactly fire proof but it'd be well away from the hot bit's like
exhuast.

And isn't likely to be indoors ...

I've always hankered after one of the Honda suitcase genny's but can't
justify it's cost for it's use ...

Yeah, I'd really like a 2 kVA one.

Bend over Sir ...

I've used then for work on
ocassion, they are wonderfully quiet, light (one arm carry) and
produce "proper" mains.

Yeah. I've seen the smaller ones on campsites and when only lightly
loaded seem to be very very quiet indeed.

Mate gave me the open frame Honda 3kW because he wasn't allowed to use
them around schools when the kids were there (noise distraction) when
working on their drains.

But I'll have to live with my fing noisey,
heavy (as in glued to the ground), diesel set.

Stack of straw bales between you and it?

IO think this was the point of the 4 sloped side panels, the sound was
reflected down and into the ground, not bouncing about inside a
parallel sided enclosure.

My mate used to have his large (3 phase) twin cyl compressor in the
garage itself but you couldn't talk in there when it was running. Then
we moved it next door into a small side building .... ah the peace ...
;-)

Being diesel I can at
least run it on red, instead of paying nearly 60p/l of road fuel
duty.

No, true.

Cheers, T i m

Dave Liquorice wrote:

Some freezers have large sealed "ice blocks" already.

chest freezers are better design for retaining the cold, I saw some
Liebherr models saying 64 hours without power ...

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 28 Oct 2020 12:09:28 +0000, Spike wrote:

Use this Latent Heat of Melting by employing a liquid that is
frozen at the normal freezer internal temperature, say -18degC, but
which melts at perhaps -15 degC, using that Latent Heat of Melting to
keep the freezer contents at that temperature.

Some freezers have large sealed "ice blocks" already. The old
fridge/freezer had two about 9 x 15 x 1 inches(*). The up right
freezer

Is that the one at the top of the stairs on the right hand side?

--
Chris Green
·

On 27/10/2020 17:56, David wrote:

The freezer is the one thing which has a major time limit.
Three days is usually quoted for a modern freezer if you don't open the
door.
So that is the risk that I am addressing.

So, back to the original question.....



You could add a nice thick foil faced celotex jacket to fit over the
freezer - I have done that as I have a 2nd freezer in the garage.

On 28/10/2020 12:56, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 28 Oct 2020 12:09:28 +0000, Spike wrote:

Use this Latent Heat of Melting by employing a liquid that is
frozen at the normal freezer internal temperature, say -18degC, but
which melts at perhaps -15 degC, using that Latent Heat of Melting to
keep the freezer contents at that temperature.

Some freezers have large sealed "ice blocks" already. The old
fridge/freezer had two about 9 x 15 x 1 inches(*). The up right
freezer has one about 15 x 5 x 1 inches, along with a few standard
cool box ones.

That's about 2 x 2.2 litres for the larger ones and 1.2 litres for the
smaller. The problem is that they might contain only gelled water, so
they would operate at about 0 degC, not quite what the OP was looking
for as not being very useful for a freezer, but could be glycol-based
and operate at some indeterminate temperature that may or may not be
appropriate.

With the DIY approach I suggested you can within limits set your own
'temperature control' rather than rely on something indeterminate.

The small cheapo chest freezer doesn't but then it is
a "basics" model... The replacement but frost free fridge freezer
doesn't but I guess it could be buried away inside somewhere or as
it's a newer device has better insulation and doesn't need the extra
help to meet the required "without power cold time".

Might be an idea for the OP to check the specs for his freezer, it could
save his faffing about with a generator...

(*) They didn't go to the fridge/freezer dump...

LOL

--
Spike

On Wed, 28 Oct 2020 10:10:48 +0000, T i m wrote:

On Tue, 27 Oct 2020 23:51:57 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

snip

There are lots of generator covers on Amazon for under £20 but it is
not clear to me if they can be left over the generator whilst it is
running.

Are they heat/fire proof? How do the exhaust gases get out? Good flow of
cooling air in? They all look nice covers for a plain rectangular box.
But when running you'll have the CEE output connector sticking out
somwhere...

Trying to remember what I did, if anything, the last time I needed the
genset and it was raining. I suspect it wasn't much more than a bit of
weighted down poly sheet covering the top and down the exposed side over
the connector/control panel and down the exposed end. Oh look there's
the rountuit to build a generator cover/shelter. B-)

I think someone (on Youtube) just positioned sheets of wood sloping
towards the generator (I can't remember if it had a top to it) and that
both allowed it to breath but drastically reduced the sound levels.

I think people tend to makes drop-over lids with baffles out of dense
material (ply / chipboard) and with a mains powered input fan at the
inlet (powered by the genny), ensuring the air is kept moving in the
right direction.

I've always hankered after one of the Honda suitcase genny's but can't
justify it's cost for it's use (I have a Honda powered 3KVA 'open frame'
genny I've only used a couple of times).

Cheers, T i m

Just noting that mine is a 650W Honda 4 stroke.

Also noting that I probably need to check that it can run the freezer
including starting the compressor before I get too heavily into it.

Could end up looking at a 12V battery or two which act as a UPS through an
inverter, giving peak power when needed, and being charged by the genny
all the time (or as required).

Life is never easy.

Cheers


Dave R


--
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On Wed, 28 Oct 2020 14:29:26 +0000, Spike wrote:

On 28/10/2020 12:56, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 28 Oct 2020 12:09:28 +0000, Spike wrote:

Use this Latent Heat of Melting by employing a liquid that is frozen
at the normal freezer internal temperature, say -18degC, but which
melts at perhaps -15 degC, using that Latent Heat of Melting to keep
the freezer contents at that temperature.

Some freezers have large sealed "ice blocks" already. The old
fridge/freezer had two about 9 x 15 x 1 inches(*). The up right freezer
has one about 15 x 5 x 1 inches, along with a few standard cool box
ones.

That's about 2 x 2.2 litres for the larger ones and 1.2 litres for the
smaller. The problem is that they might contain only gelled water, so
they would operate at about 0 degC, not quite what the OP was looking
for as not being very useful for a freezer, but could be glycol-based
and operate at some indeterminate temperature that may or may not be
appropriate.

With the DIY approach I suggested you can within limits set your own
'temperature control' rather than rely on something indeterminate.

The small cheapo chest freezer doesn't but then it is a "basics"
model... The replacement but frost free fridge freezer doesn't but I
guess it could be buried away inside somewhere or as it's a newer
device has better insulation and doesn't need the extra help to meet
the required "without power cold time".

Might be an idea for the OP to check the specs for his freezer, it could
save his faffing about with a generator...

(*) They didn't go to the fridge/freezer dump...

LOL

I am taking a very pessimistic view of the worst case scenario for Brexit.

This includes major interruptions to mains power supplies.

Very unlikely, but once you start asking the question, and think "hang on,
I have a small generator" then provision to run the generator follows
naturally.

Cheers


Dave R



--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 7 Pro x64

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On 28/10/2020 15:42, David wrote:
On Wed, 28 Oct 2020 14:29:26 +0000, Spike wrote:
On 28/10/2020 12:56, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 28 Oct 2020 12:09:28 +0000, Spike wrote:

Use this Latent Heat of Melting by employing a liquid that is frozen
at the normal freezer internal temperature, say -18degC, but which
melts at perhaps -15 degC, using that Latent Heat of Melting to keep
the freezer contents at that temperature.

Some freezers have large sealed "ice blocks" already. The old
fridge/freezer had two about 9 x 15 x 1 inches(*). The up right freezer
has one about 15 x 5 x 1 inches, along with a few standard cool box
ones.

That's about 2 x 2.2 litres for the larger ones and 1.2 litres for the
smaller. The problem is that they might contain only gelled water, so
they would operate at about 0 degC, not quite what the OP was looking
for as not being very useful for a freezer, but could be glycol-based
and operate at some indeterminate temperature that may or may not be
appropriate.

With the DIY approach I suggested you can within limits set your own
'temperature control' rather than rely on something indeterminate.

The small cheapo chest freezer doesn't but then it is a "basics"
model... The replacement but frost free fridge freezer doesn't but I
guess it could be buried away inside somewhere or as it's a newer
device has better insulation and doesn't need the extra help to meet
the required "without power cold time".

Might be an idea for the OP to check the specs for his freezer, it could
save his faffing about with a generator...

(*) They didn't go to the fridge/freezer dump...

LOL

I am taking a very pessimistic view of the worst case scenario for Brexit.

This includes major interruptions to mains power supplies.

erm...your original post was a requirement for /short/ power outages!

I'm not sure that Brexit time-scales imply 'short'...


--
Spike

On 28/10/2020 15:30, David wrote:
On Wed, 28 Oct 2020 10:10:48 +0000, T i m wrote:


I've always hankered after one of the Honda suitcase genny's but can't
justify it's cost for it's use (I have a Honda powered 3KVA 'open frame'
genny I've only used a couple of times).

Cheers, T i m

Just noting that mine is a 650W Honda 4 stroke.

Also noting that I probably need to check that it can run the freezer
including starting the compressor before I get too heavily into it.

Could end up looking at a 12V battery or two which act as a UPS through an
inverter, giving peak power when needed, and being charged by the genny
all the time (or as required).

Life is never easy.

I doubt if a 650W generator or anything other than a professional grade
hi surge current server rack UPS would be able to power a compressor
motor. The peak current surge to start is very high for a few cycles.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Wed, 28 Oct 2020 16:13:33 +0000, Spike wrote:

On 28/10/2020 15:42, David wrote:
On Wed, 28 Oct 2020 14:29:26 +0000, Spike wrote:
On 28/10/2020 12:56, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 28 Oct 2020 12:09:28 +0000, Spike wrote:

Use this Latent Heat of Melting by employing a liquid that is frozen
at the normal freezer internal temperature, say -18degC, but which
melts at perhaps -15 degC, using that Latent Heat of Melting to keep
the freezer contents at that temperature.

Some freezers have large sealed "ice blocks" already. The old
fridge/freezer had two about 9 x 15 x 1 inches(*). The up right
freezer has one about 15 x 5 x 1 inches, along with a few standard
cool box ones.

That's about 2 x 2.2 litres for the larger ones and 1.2 litres for the
smaller. The problem is that they might contain only gelled water, so
they would operate at about 0 degC, not quite what the OP was looking
for as not being very useful for a freezer, but could be glycol-based
and operate at some indeterminate temperature that may or may not be
appropriate.

With the DIY approach I suggested you can within limits set your own
'temperature control' rather than rely on something indeterminate.

The small cheapo chest freezer doesn't but then it is a "basics"
model... The replacement but frost free fridge freezer doesn't but I
guess it could be buried away inside somewhere or as it's a newer
device has better insulation and doesn't need the extra help to meet
the required "without power cold time".

Might be an idea for the OP to check the specs for his freezer, it
could save his faffing about with a generator...

(*) They didn't go to the fridge/freezer dump...

LOL

I am taking a very pessimistic view of the worst case scenario for
Brexit.

This includes major interruptions to mains power supplies.

erm...your original post was a requirement for /short/ power outages!

I'm not sure that Brexit time-scales imply 'short'...

For selected values of "short" :-)


Cheers


Dave R


--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 7 Pro x64

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On 28/10/2020 10:25, Martin Brown wrote:
On 27/10/2020 23:51, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On 27 Oct 2020 16:41:33 GMT, David wrote:

One item was to be able to run a small generator to keep the freezer
going ...

"small generator" How big is small? The small 750 W two stroke
jobbies can struggle with freezers/fridges as they don't have enough
welly to start the compressor motor.

That is a good point even a 1.5kW unit slows briefly when the freezer
motor comes on due to the very high surge current. A smaller unit might
well cutout to protect itself from a perceived overload conditions.

The load presented by the compressor motor from a standing start looks
very much like a dead short until it spins up.

Never tried my small 4-stroke "inverter" generator (Machine Mart "honda"
clone) on a fridge or freezer, but it certainly copes better with
inductive loads (angle grinder, circular saw) than its little two-stroke
predecessor.

On 28 Oct 2020 at 16:34:45 GMT, "Martin Brown"
wrote:

On 28/10/2020 15:30, David wrote:
On Wed, 28 Oct 2020 10:10:48 +0000, T i m wrote:


I've always hankered after one of the Honda suitcase genny's but can't
justify it's cost for it's use (I have a Honda powered 3KVA 'open frame'
genny I've only used a couple of times).

Cheers, T i m

Just noting that mine is a 650W Honda 4 stroke.

Also noting that I probably need to check that it can run the freezer
including starting the compressor before I get too heavily into it.

Could end up looking at a 12V battery or two which act as a UPS through an
inverter, giving peak power when needed, and being charged by the genny
all the time (or as required).

Life is never easy.

I doubt if a 650W generator or anything other than a professional grade
hi surge current server rack UPS would be able to power a compressor
motor. The peak current surge to start is very high for a few cycles.

That's why ordinary UPSs all insist they can't be used with laser printers -
they are unhappy with even very brief over-current events when running on the
inverter.

--
Roger Hayter

On Thu, 29 Oct 2020 00:21:31 +0000, Roger Hayter wrote:

On 28 Oct 2020 at 16:34:45 GMT, "Martin Brown"
wrote:

On 28/10/2020 15:30, David wrote:
On Wed, 28 Oct 2020 10:10:48 +0000, T i m wrote:


I've always hankered after one of the Honda suitcase genny's but
can't justify it's cost for it's use (I have a Honda powered 3KVA
'open frame'
genny I've only used a couple of times).

Cheers, T i m

Just noting that mine is a 650W Honda 4 stroke.

Also noting that I probably need to check that it can run the freezer
including starting the compressor before I get too heavily into it.

Could end up looking at a 12V battery or two which act as a UPS
through an inverter, giving peak power when needed, and being charged
by the genny all the time (or as required).

Life is never easy.

I doubt if a 650W generator or anything other than a professional grade
hi surge current server rack UPS would be able to power a compressor
motor. The peak current surge to start is very high for a few cycles.

That's why ordinary UPSs all insist they can't be used with laser
printers - they are unhappy with even very brief over-current events
when running on the inverter.

Interestingly, my workshop (mainly electronics) is on a ring circuit
shared with just one other (mostly unused) room. It has a UPS feeding two
or three computers most of the time.

The laser printer (a consumer grade colour Samsung) is on the ring
circuit, but not of course on the APC Smart-UPS.

Despite the ring circuit being correctly wired and being quite short, and
there being little load on it...when I switch on the laser printer, the
UPS shifts taps to compensate for the voltage drop - it is clearly
audible.



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 29 Oct 2020 00:44:08 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

I doubt if a 650W generator or anything other than a professional

grade hi surge current server rack UPS would be able to power a
compressor motor. The peak current surge to start is very high
for a
few cycles.

My 2 kVA diesel set just changes exhaust note a tiny bit when a
fridge freezer kicks in. Rather more of a change in not if you drop a
2 kW fan heater on to it, no noticable speed chnage. B-)

That's why ordinary UPSs all insist they can't be used with laser
printers - they are unhappy with even very brief over-current
events
when running on the inverter.

UPS's don't like CRT monitors from powered down either. OK if already
up and in standby though. Degausing coil is a hefty load for a second
or so...

Despite the ring circuit being correctly wired and being quite short,
and there being little load on it...when I switch on the laser printer,
the UPS shifts taps to compensate for the voltage drop - it is clearly
audible.

That sort of surprises me, there will be an inrush as the filter
capacitor and PSU capacitors charge but wouldn't expect that to be
greatly different to a PC. Think I'd be looking to see if the UPS is
a bit "sensitive" or what the volt drop drop is on that ring when
loaded. May be indicating a slightly iffy joint somewhere.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 29/10/2020 09:24, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On 29 Oct 2020 00:44:08 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

Despite the ring circuit being correctly wired and being quite short,
and there being little load on it...when I switch on the laser printer,
the UPS shifts taps to compensate for the voltage drop - it is clearly
audible.

That sort of surprises me, there will be an inrush as the filter
capacitor and PSU capacitors charge but wouldn't expect that to be
greatly different to a PC. Think I'd be looking to see if the UPS is
a bit "sensitive" or what the volt drop drop is on that ring when
loaded. May be indicating a slightly iffy joint somewhere.

Laser printers are a brutal load to get the fuser element that melts the
toner onto the paper up to temperature quickly is a brief but very high
surge current from cold. Easily enough to trip a UPS out.

Inkjet printers are fine though.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Thu, 29 Oct 2020 10:19:10 +0000, Martin Brown wrote:

On 29/10/2020 09:24, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On 29 Oct 2020 00:44:08 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

Despite the ring circuit being correctly wired and being quite short,
and there being little load on it...when I switch on the laser
printer,
the UPS shifts taps to compensate for the voltage drop - it is clearly
audible.

That sort of surprises me, there will be an inrush as the filter
capacitor and PSU capacitors charge but wouldn't expect that to be
greatly different to a PC. Think I'd be looking to see if the UPS is a
bit "sensitive" or what the volt drop drop is on that ring when loaded.
May be indicating a slightly iffy joint somewhere.

Laser printers are a brutal load to get the fuser element that melts the
toner onto the paper up to temperature quickly is a brief but very high
surge current from cold. Easily enough to trip a UPS out.

Indeed. Which is why I didn't put it on the UPS! The UPS still complained.

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 28/10/2020 18:47, David wrote:
On Wed, 28 Oct 2020 16:13:33 +0000, Spike wrote:

On 28/10/2020 15:42, David wrote:
On Wed, 28 Oct 2020 14:29:26 +0000, Spike wrote:
On 28/10/2020 12:56, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 28 Oct 2020 12:09:28 +0000, Spike wrote:

Use this Latent Heat of Melting by employing a liquid that is frozen
at the normal freezer internal temperature, say -18degC, but which
melts at perhaps -15 degC, using that Latent Heat of Melting to keep
the freezer contents at that temperature.

Some freezers have large sealed "ice blocks" already. The old
fridge/freezer had two about 9 x 15 x 1 inches(*). The up right
freezer has one about 15 x 5 x 1 inches, along with a few standard
cool box ones.

That's about 2 x 2.2 litres for the larger ones and 1.2 litres for the
smaller. The problem is that they might contain only gelled water, so
they would operate at about 0 degC, not quite what the OP was looking
for as not being very useful for a freezer, but could be glycol-based
and operate at some indeterminate temperature that may or may not be
appropriate.

With the DIY approach I suggested you can within limits set your own
'temperature control' rather than rely on something indeterminate.

The small cheapo chest freezer doesn't but then it is a "basics"
model... The replacement but frost free fridge freezer doesn't but I
guess it could be buried away inside somewhere or as it's a newer
device has better insulation and doesn't need the extra help to meet
the required "without power cold time".

Might be an idea for the OP to check the specs for his freezer, it
could save his faffing about with a generator...

(*) They didn't go to the fridge/freezer dump...

LOL

I am taking a very pessimistic view of the worst case scenario for
Brexit.

This includes major interruptions to mains power supplies.

erm...your original post was a requirement for /short/ power outages!

I'm not sure that Brexit time-scales imply 'short'...

For selected values of "short" :-)

Brexit should reduce power poutages as we will no longer be bound to the
renewable obligation, Of course that will need a PM who isn't shagging
an eco bunny, but that may come to pass, yet.


Cheers


Dave R




--
€œA leader is best When people barely know he exists. Of a good leader,
who talks little,When his work is done, his aim fulfilled,They will say,
€œWe did this ourselves.€�

ۥ Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching