floor tiling
 

I am going to change the ceramic kitchen floor tiles and would like to have
included some form of insulation. The gap is only really deep enough to fit
the tile cement so does anyone know of a type of insulation I might be able
to use? I was wondering about a foil roll or something similar if it exists.

Many thanks.

"bill" wrote in message
...
I am going to change the ceramic kitchen floor tiles and would like to have
included some form of insulation. The gap is only really deep enough to
fit
the tile cement so does anyone know of a type of insulation I might be
able
to use? I was wondering about a foil roll or something similar if it
exists.

Many thanks.



You don't really want to have anything loose under the adhesive, it will
cause the tiles to move over time and eventually all come loose.


What is limiting the "Gap"?

Dave Jones

The original tiles were laid onto a concrete base which I am assuming I will
have to go back to otherwise it means digging it up :0(
What about a foil with holes in to allow adhesion to the concrete base?
Would that make sense?



"Dave Jones" wrote in message
...

"bill" wrote in message
...
I am going to change the ceramic kitchen floor tiles and would like to
have
included some form of insulation. The gap is only really deep enough to
fit
the tile cement so does anyone know of a type of insulation I might be
able
to use? I was wondering about a foil roll or something similar if it
exists.

Many thanks.



You don't really want to have anything loose under the adhesive, it will
cause the tiles to move over time and eventually all come loose.


What is limiting the "Gap"?

Dave Jones

bill wrote:
The original tiles were laid onto a concrete base which I am assuming I will
have to go back to otherwise it means digging it up :0(
What about a foil with holes in to allow adhesion to the concrete base?
Would that make sense?

A. Aluminium foil is a very good conductor of heat, and in no way an
insulator.

B. Holes???

--
Grunff

"bill" wrote in message
...
The original tiles were laid onto a concrete base which I am assuming I
will
have to go back to otherwise it means digging it up :0(
What about a foil with holes in to allow adhesion to the concrete base?
Would that make sense?


I think the short answer is "no".

You can't have insulation without separation. If it is a new concrete base,
it should already be insulated (2-3" below the surface) with polystyrene
slab, which may help.

If you are desparately concerned about the cold, use vinyl cushion floor
that looks like tiles and replace it every few years. (Yes, I know it's not
as nice, but you seem desperate to avoid the cold :o) )


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

bill wrote:

I am going to change the ceramic kitchen floor tiles and would like to have
included some form of insulation. The gap is only really deep enough to fit
the tile cement so does anyone know of a type of insulation I might be able
to use? I was wondering about a foil roll or something similar if it exists.

Many thanks.


Pointless unless you can get a couple of inches of polystyrene in there.

Foil is not insulative., Its conductive. Al is the most conductive metal
for its weight there is pretty much.

Bob Mannix wrote:

If you are desparately concerned about the cold, use vinyl cushion floor
that looks like tiles and replace it every few years. (Yes, I know it's not
as nice, but you seem desperate to avoid the cold :o) )


Or lay UFH under the tiles (currently doing this in the kitchen).

--
Grunff

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

bill wrote:

I am going to change the ceramic kitchen floor tiles and would like to
have
included some form of insulation. The gap is only really deep enough
to fit
the tile cement so does anyone know of a type of insulation I might be
able
to use? I was wondering about a foil roll or something similar if it
exists.

Many thanks.


Pointless unless you can get a couple of inches of polystyrene in there.

Foil is not insulative., Its conductive. Al is the most conductive metal
for its weight there is pretty much.

This is not intended to be contentious, just a question. If putting
foil behind a radiator then papering over reflects heat back would not
the same beneath a floor have the same effect?

--
Please do not reply by Email, as all
emails to this address are automatically deleted.

Broadback wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

bill wrote:

I am going to change the ceramic kitchen floor tiles and would like
to have
included some form of insulation. The gap is only really deep enough
to fit
the tile cement so does anyone know of a type of insulation I might
be able
to use? I was wondering about a foil roll or something similar if it
exists.

Many thanks.


Pointless unless you can get a couple of inches of polystyrene in there.

Foil is not insulative., Its conductive. Al is the most conductive
metal for its weight there is pretty much.

This is not intended to be contentious, just a question. If putting
foil behind a radiator then papering over reflects heat back would not
the same beneath a floor have the same effect?


Yes, if it were true, which it isn't.

foil behind radiators is almost useless, and when papered over,
completely so, apart from being a good vapour barrier.

I'm not an expert but I would think that if you papered over the foil behind
a radiator you would be defeating the object of the exercise. From my school
days heat travels by 3 different ways - radiation, conduction and
convection. Ignoring convection for now, radiation (as applies to radiators)
is a little like rays of light and can be reflected by shiny surfaces. This
is why you can put aluminum foil behind a radiator to bounce the heat back
into the room (and why electric bar fires have chrome reflectors behind the
element to reflect the heat into the room). Papering over the foil would
stop it reflecting (as would burying it under floor tiles). Conduction is
where heat travels through an object. Eg. you put an iron poker in the fire
and the handle gets hot. This is what would happen if you put the foil under
the tiles - it would simply conduct the heat through to the surface below.

Nodge


"Broadback" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

bill wrote:

I am going to change the ceramic kitchen floor tiles and would like to
have
included some form of insulation. The gap is only really deep enough
to fit
the tile cement so does anyone know of a type of insulation I might be
able
to use? I was wondering about a foil roll or something similar if it
exists.

Many thanks.


Pointless unless you can get a couple of inches of polystyrene in there.

Foil is not insulative., Its conductive. Al is the most conductive metal
for its weight there is pretty much.

This is not intended to be contentious, just a question. If putting
foil behind a radiator then papering over reflects heat back would not
the same beneath a floor have the same effect?

--
Please do not reply by Email, as all
emails to this address are automatically deleted.

All very helpful, thanks, so how about Plan B, I take up the existing
tiles, and lay underfloor heating? If I do, does that have to have some form
of insulation board underneath the cable, or doesn't it make a lot of
difference?


"Nodge" wrote in message
...
I'm not an expert but I would think that if you papered over the foil
behind
a radiator you would be defeating the object of the exercise. From my
school
days heat travels by 3 different ways - radiation, conduction and
convection. Ignoring convection for now, radiation (as applies to
radiators)
is a little like rays of light and can be reflected by shiny surfaces.
This
is why you can put aluminum foil behind a radiator to bounce the heat back
into the room (and why electric bar fires have chrome reflectors behind
the
element to reflect the heat into the room). Papering over the foil would
stop it reflecting (as would burying it under floor tiles). Conduction is
where heat travels through an object. Eg. you put an iron poker in the
fire
and the handle gets hot. This is what would happen if you put the foil
under
the tiles - it would simply conduct the heat through to the surface below.

Nodge


"Broadback" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

bill wrote:

I am going to change the ceramic kitchen floor tiles and would like
to
have
included some form of insulation. The gap is only really deep enough
to fit
the tile cement so does anyone know of a type of insulation I might
be
able
to use? I was wondering about a foil roll or something similar if it
exists.

Many thanks.


Pointless unless you can get a couple of inches of polystyrene in
there.

Foil is not insulative., Its conductive. Al is the most conductive
metal
for its weight there is pretty much.

This is not intended to be contentious, just a question. If putting
foil behind a radiator then papering over reflects heat back would not
the same beneath a floor have the same effect?

--
Please do not reply by Email, as all
emails to this address are automatically deleted.

bill wrote:

All very helpful, thanks, so how about Plan B, I take up the existing
tiles, and lay underfloor heating? If I do, does that have to have some form
of insulation board underneath the cable, or doesn't it make a lot of
difference?


You SHOULD have about 4" of screed over about 2" of polystyrene
insulation to get decent efficiency out of the UFH, otherwise about half
the heat will be going to making the worms cosy, rather than your cat...

SO, if you have 6" to spare, or can rip up the floor to that depth, go
for it.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
bill wrote:

I am going to change the ceramic kitchen floor tiles and would like to have
included some form of insulation. The gap is only really deep enough to fit
the tile cement so does anyone know of a type of insulation I might be able
to use? I was wondering about a foil roll or something similar if it exists.

Many thanks.


Pointless unless you can get a couple of inches of polystyrene in there.

Foil is not insulative., Its conductive. Al is the most conductive metal
for its weight there is pretty much.

Nitpick:
Sodium and a couple of other of the alkali metals beat it.

"Broadback" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

bill wrote:

I am going to change the ceramic kitchen floor tiles and would like to
have
included some form of insulation. The gap is only really deep enough
to fit
the tile cement so does anyone know of a type of insulation I might be
able
to use? I was wondering about a foil roll or something similar if it
exists.

Many thanks.


Pointless unless you can get a couple of inches of polystyrene in there.

Foil is not insulative., Its conductive. Al is the most conductive metal
for its weight there is pretty much.

This is not intended to be contentious, just a question. If putting
foil behind a radiator then papering over reflects heat back would not
the same beneath a floor have the same effect?

"Proper" radiator stuff for the walls is actually thin foam sheet with foil
on it. There will be a tiny amount of radiated heat reflected by the foil
(if it's not papered over) but the main effect is that the insulating foam
stops a very cold wall from cooling the air that has been warmed by the
radiator. The effect is pretty minimal, I suspect, but if you have solid
walls and have the radiators off and are redecorating it's worth putting the
silvered foam sheet ON TOP of the wall paper. Foil on its own would be
almost completely useless on top of the paper and completely so underneath.


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

Ian Stirling wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

bill wrote:


I am going to change the ceramic kitchen floor tiles and would like to have
included some form of insulation. The gap is only really deep enough to fit
the tile cement so does anyone know of a type of insulation I might be able
to use? I was wondering about a foil roll or something similar if it exists.

Many thanks.



Pointless unless you can get a couple of inches of polystyrene in there.

Foil is not insulative., Its conductive. Al is the most conductive metal
for its weight there is pretty much.


Nitpick:
Sodium and a couple of other of the alkali metals beat it.

Umm. Yes. I'll give you that one :-)

They use liquid sodium in reactors don't they?

Bob Mannix wrote:

"Broadback" wrote in message
...

The Natural Philosopher wrote:


bill wrote:


I am going to change the ceramic kitchen floor tiles and would like to
have
included some form of insulation. The gap is only really deep enough
to fit
the tile cement so does anyone know of a type of insulation I might be
able
to use? I was wondering about a foil roll or something similar if it
exists.

Many thanks.



Pointless unless you can get a couple of inches of polystyrene in there.

Foil is not insulative., Its conductive. Al is the most conductive metal
for its weight there is pretty much.


This is not intended to be contentious, just a question. If putting
foil behind a radiator then papering over reflects heat back would not
the same beneath a floor have the same effect?


"Proper" radiator stuff for the walls is actually thin foam sheet with foil
on it. There will be a tiny amount of radiated heat reflected by the foil
(if it's not papered over) but the main effect is that the insulating foam
stops a very cold wall from cooling the air that has been warmed by the
radiator. The effect is pretty minimal, I suspect, but if you have solid
walls and have the radiators off and are redecorating it's worth putting the
silvered foam sheet ON TOP of the wall paper. Foil on its own would be
almost completely useless on top of the paper and completely so underneath.


Pewrhaps it alos acts as a vapour barrier stopping damp walls behind the
radiator losing heat by evaporaation?

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Pewrhaps it alos acts as a vapour barrier stopping damp walls behind the
radiator losing heat by evaporaation?


If such an effect was even noticeable, you would have a far bigger problem
than marginally less effective heating!


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

In message , Ian
Stirling writes
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
bill wrote:

I am going to change the ceramic kitchen floor tiles and would like to have
included some form of insulation. The gap is only really deep enough to fit
the tile cement so does anyone know of a type of insulation I might be able
to use? I was wondering about a foil roll or something similar if it exists.

Many thanks.


Pointless unless you can get a couple of inches of polystyrene in there.

Foil is not insulative., Its conductive. Al is the most conductive metal
for its weight there is pretty much.

Nitpick:
Sodium and a couple of other of the alkali metals beat it.

But you don't often see these metals used so much in the construction
industry though

(ueber pedant)

--
geoff

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Ian Stirling wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

bill wrote:


I am going to change the ceramic kitchen floor tiles and would like to have
included some form of insulation. The gap is only really deep enough to fit
the tile cement so does anyone know of a type of insulation I might be able
to use? I was wondering about a foil roll or something similar if it exists.

Many thanks.



Pointless unless you can get a couple of inches of polystyrene in there.

Foil is not insulative., Its conductive. Al is the most conductive metal
for its weight there is pretty much.


Nitpick:
Sodium and a couple of other of the alkali metals beat it.

Umm. Yes. I'll give you that one :-)

They use liquid sodium in reactors don't they?

Some of them, yes.
It's actually quite hard to get to go on fire if it's not exposed to
water.
It doesn't vapourise well, and the oxide skim tends to inhibit things.

Ian Stirling wrote:

Some of them, yes.
It's actually quite hard to get to go on fire if it's not exposed to
water.
It doesn't vapourise well, and the oxide skim tends to inhibit things.


Hehe... Reminds me of a foolish incident we once had.

I had a couple of pounds of sodium to dispose of. There are many safe
ways to dispose of sodium; this isn't one of them.

I filled a bucket with water, put it at the bottom of the garden, then
dropped a half pound chunk into it and retired to a safe distance.

A minute or two later there was a loud pop and the place was showered
with molten sodium. It didn't matter too much, because it was mostly
grass and trees. But the shed took some of the fallout. Later that day
it started to rain, and patches of the lawn (and the shed) caught fire.


--
Grunff

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
Ian Stirling wrote:

Some of them, yes.
It's actually quite hard to get to go on fire if it's not exposed to
water.
It doesn't vapourise well, and the oxide skim tends to inhibit things.


Hehe... Reminds me of a foolish incident we once had.

I had a couple of pounds of sodium to dispose of. There are many safe
ways to dispose of sodium; this isn't one of them.

I filled a bucket with water, put it at the bottom of the garden, then
dropped a half pound chunk into it and retired to a safe distance.

A minute or two later there was a loud pop and the place was showered
with molten sodium. It didn't matter too much, because it was mostly
grass and trees. But the shed took some of the fallout. Later that day
it started to rain, and patches of the lawn (and the shed) caught fire.

eee you mad b*st*rd!

Did you ever see the George Goble web page with video clips of him lighting
barbecues with a gallon of liquid oxygen? Respec! Sadly his page has been
shut down (fears of litigation I assume) but there's still an article with
piccies available:

http://www.ambrosiasw.com/Ambrosia_T.../2.5HowTo.html


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

Bob Mannix wrote:

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
Ian Stirling wrote:

Some of them, yes.
It's actually quite hard to get to go on fire if it's not exposed to
water.
It doesn't vapourise well, and the oxide skim tends to inhibit things.


Hehe... Reminds me of a foolish incident we once had.

I had a couple of pounds of sodium to dispose of. There are many safe
ways to dispose of sodium; this isn't one of them.

I filled a bucket with water, put it at the bottom of the garden, then
dropped a half pound chunk into it and retired to a safe distance.

A minute or two later there was a loud pop and the place was showered
with molten sodium. It didn't matter too much, because it was mostly
grass and trees. But the shed took some of the fallout. Later that day
it started to rain, and patches of the lawn (and the shed) caught fire.

eee you mad b*st*rd!

Did you ever see the George Goble web page with video clips of him lighting
barbecues with a gallon of liquid oxygen? Respec! Sadly his page has been
shut down (fears of litigation I assume) but there's still an article with
piccies available:

Just in case, I feel I should mention that you put the oxygen on after the
thing is partially lit.
Otherwise, well, charcoal soaked in liquid oxygen is quite a good explosive,
and things tend to go a bit wrong.

Bob Mannix wrote:

eee you mad b*st*rd!

Did you ever see the George Goble web page with video clips of him lighting
barbecues with a gallon of liquid oxygen? Respec!

No, missed those - sounds like fun. I've burnt a lot of things after
dipping in liquid oxygen, including an old cotton shirt. That was
Be-uuu-tiful. Womfff.


http://www.ambrosiasw.com/Ambrosia_T.../2.5HowTo.html

Aah, it's been too long...


--
Grunff

"Ian Stirling" wrote in message
...
Bob Mannix wrote:

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
Ian Stirling wrote:


snip

Did you ever see the George Goble web page with video clips of him
lighting
barbecues with a gallon of liquid oxygen? Respec! Sadly his page has
been
shut down (fears of litigation I assume) but there's still an article
with
piccies available:

Just in case, I feel I should mention that you put the oxygen on after the
thing is partially lit.
Otherwise, well, charcoal soaked in liquid oxygen is quite a good
explosive,
and things tend to go a bit wrong.

Or to quote the web page:

"Pouring Liquid Oxygen onto unlit charcoal will cause the charcoal to
explode; each briquette will detonate with the force of one stick of
dynamite. This is not something you want to spill on your driveway."


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

Bob Mannix wrote:

"Ian Stirling" wrote in message
...
Bob Mannix wrote:

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
Ian Stirling wrote:


snip

Did you ever see the George Goble web page with video clips of him
lighting
barbecues with a gallon of liquid oxygen? Respec! Sadly his page has
been
shut down (fears of litigation I assume) but there's still an article
with
piccies available:

Just in case, I feel I should mention that you put the oxygen on after the
thing is partially lit.
Otherwise, well, charcoal soaked in liquid oxygen is quite a good
explosive,
and things tend to go a bit wrong.

Or to quote the web page:

"Pouring Liquid Oxygen onto unlit charcoal will cause the charcoal to
explode; each briquette will detonate with the force of one stick of
dynamite. This is not something you want to spill on your driveway."

And indeed with tar-based driveways, you can get a whole new level of
fun, when the driveway becomes explosive.
(admittedly, you have to drop quite a lot of LO2, to supercool the tarmac
so that it can absorb the LO2 without boiling it off)