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Default Band saw guide rollers

The blade guide rollers on my c.40 year old Burgess bandsaw are badly worn and because of it's age replacement guide rollers appear unavailable. They appear to be made of nylon, 13mm o/d, 5mm i/d, 10mm long.
I'm sure Steve on "The Repair Shop" would just turn up a suitable bit of nylon in the wink of an eye, but I haven't got a lathe like he has! Or as much skill for that matter!
Has anybody any idea how I could get a couple made?
Cheers
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On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 10:03:53 -0700 (PDT), petek
wrote:

The blade guide rollers on my c.40 year old Burgess bandsaw are badly worn and because of it's age replacement guide rollers appear unavailable. They appear to be made of nylon, 13mm o/d, 5mm i/d, 10mm long.


Measured with what OOI?

I'm sure Steve on "The Repair Shop" would just turn up a suitable bit of nylon in the wink of an eye, but I haven't got a lathe like he has!


Few have these days.

Or as much skill for that matter!


It's mostly practice.

Has anybody any idea how I could get a couple made?


Any job like that is likely to cost more than the saw cost to replace
(these days) so it's down to finding someone with one and some nylon
stock that wants to do it for the S&G's.

I wonder how well some 3D printed ones would work? I'm only setup for
PLA and they would be very easy to design / print [1] but it depends
how much friction was on them and how hot they got as to how long they
might last?

If we are confident in the dimensions I'm happy to print you some (4?)
and stick em in the post?

Failing that, when I get round to the end of my own list and near my
lathe ...

Cheers, T i m

[1]
Open Sketchup
Draw circle radius 2.5mm
Draw concentric circle radius 6.5mm
Delete inner 'hole'.
Drag ring up 10mm to form tube.
Export as .stl.
Open Repetior Host and select previous file.
Duplicate 1 to 4 off.
Select 100% infill.
Slice with Slic3r
Save .gcode file to SD card.
Put SD card in 3D printer and select file, print.
10 mins later, pick up 3d objects created out of nowhere!


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Default Band saw guide rollers

On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 21:50:02 +0100, T i m wrote:

The blade guide rollers on my c.40 year old Burgess bandsaw are

badly worn and because of it's age replacement guide rollers
appear
unavailable. They appear to be made of nylon, 13mm o/d, 5mm i/d,

10mm long.

Measured with what OOI?

I'm sure Steve on "The Repair Shop" would just turn up a suitable bit of
nylon in the wink of an eye, but I haven't got a lathe like he has!

Few have these days.


Why do you need a lathe?

Get hold of a suitable short length of rod (eBay?) of say 15 mm dia,
cut a 10 mm length, carefully drill a 5 mm hole in the centre, fit a
snug bolt and nut through the hole with washers each side. Firmly fix
some abrasive paper on to a hard flat surafce. Put end of bolt in
power drill and with the drill running rub the nylon squarely on the
abrasive until you have the desired dia. Perhaps starting quite
coarse if you have a lot to remove then progressively finer to the
finished dia.

If you have a pillar drill with a table that can rotate fixing the
abrasive to the vertical table that can be swung against the
nylon/bolt in the chuck should produce a very good result. With less
agro than trying it handheld.

Or even have good dig about on eBay for rollers. Perhaps intended for
some thing else, garage doors? But I think they are nearer 20 mm dia
and not sure how they are fixed to the bar. You get the idea though.
B-)

--
Cheers
Dave.



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Default Band saw guide rollers

On 18/08/2020 18:03:53, petek wrote:
The blade guide rollers on my c.40 year old Burgess bandsaw are badly
worn and because of it's age replacement guide rollers appear
unavailable. They appear to be made of nylon, 13mm o/d, 5mm i/d, 10mm
long. I'm sure Steve on "The Repair Shop" would just turn up a
suitable bit of nylon in the wink of an eye, but I haven't got a
lathe like he has! Or as much skill for that matter! Has anybody any
idea how I could get a couple made? Cheers


Any good?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Nylon-Spa...s/352866809420
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Default Band saw guide rollers

On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 22:32:17 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 21:50:02 +0100, T i m wrote:

The blade guide rollers on my c.40 year old Burgess bandsaw are

badly worn and because of it's age replacement guide rollers
appear
unavailable. They appear to be made of nylon, 13mm o/d, 5mm i/d,

10mm long.

Measured with what OOI?

I'm sure Steve on "The Repair Shop" would just turn up a suitable bit of
nylon in the wink of an eye, but I haven't got a lathe like he has!

Few have these days.


Why do you need a lathe?

Get hold of a suitable short length of rod (eBay?) of say 15 mm dia,
cut a 10 mm length, carefully drill a 5 mm hole in the centre,


That's the first reason ... ;-)

fit a
snug bolt and nut through the hole with washers each side. Firmly fix
some abrasive paper on to a hard flat surafce. Put end of bolt in
power drill and with the drill running rub the nylon squarely on the
abrasive until you have the desired dia.


And the second. ;-)

Perhaps starting quite
coarse if you have a lot to remove then progressively finer to the
finished dia.


And the 3rd. ;-)

If you have a pillar drill with a table that can rotate fixing the
abrasive to the vertical table that can be swung against the
nylon/bolt in the chuck should produce a very good result. With less
agro than trying it handheld.


4th ..

Or even have good dig about on eBay for rollers. Perhaps intended for
some thing else, garage doors? But I think they are nearer 20 mm dia
and not sure how they are fixed to the bar. You get the idea though.
B-)


Yes, if you were in the back of India or on a desert island I'm sure
with enough material to work with you could eventually get a pair of
rollers that are concentric and worked.

A lathe makes the whole process that much better / quicker. ;-)

I've probably got a stick of nylon that diameter that I could first
bore out 50mm x 5mm, part off at 10mm lengths and be done before you
had found the bolt that fitted nicely. ;-)

But then I have a lathe ... ;-)

Cheers, T i m


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Default Band saw guide rollers

On Tuesday, August 18, 2020 at 10:40:34 PM UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 18/08/2020 18:03:53, petek wrote:
The blade guide rollers on my c.40 year old Burgess bandsaw are badly
worn and because of it's age replacement guide rollers appear
unavailable. They appear to be made of nylon, 13mm o/d, 5mm i/d, 10mm
long. I'm sure Steve on "The Repair Shop" would just turn up a
suitable bit of nylon in the wink of an eye, but I haven't got a
lathe like he has! Or as much skill for that matter! Has anybody any
idea how I could get a couple made? Cheers

Any good?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Nylon-Spa...s/352866809420



Thanks for 3 very constructive replies.

Tim, the o/d was measured with vernier caliper, but a fraction of a mm either way may not be critical as the roller o/d is not in contact with the blade if set up correctly . The i/d is to suit a 5mm screw. Length again measured with v. caliper but not critical. Thanks for the offer to print a couple which I will hold in reserve, see reply to Fredxx below.

Dave, yes I had thought of doing something like that on my wood turning lathe but was hoping to find something off the shelf.

Fredxx, thanks for the link. I had been searching for nylon bar or tube - it didn't occur to me to search for "spacer"! They have some with 12.7 o/d x 5.6 i/d x 25mm long, so I've ordered a pack of 10 for a couple of quid. May be a sloppy fit on the 5mm screw but could be OK.

Thanks again for your responses, I'll let you know how I get on.

Pete
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Default Band saw guide rollers

On Tuesday, August 18, 2020 at 11:17:10 PM UTC+1, petek wrote:
On Tuesday, August 18, 2020 at 10:40:34 PM UTC+1, Fredxx wrote:
On 18/08/2020 18:03:53, petek wrote:
The blade guide rollers on my c.40 year old Burgess bandsaw are badly
worn and because of it's age replacement guide rollers appear
unavailable. They appear to be made of nylon, 13mm o/d, 5mm i/d, 10mm
long. I'm sure Steve on "The Repair Shop" would just turn up a
suitable bit of nylon in the wink of an eye, but I haven't got a
lathe like he has! Or as much skill for that matter! Has anybody any
idea how I could get a couple made? Cheers

Any good?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Nylon-Spa...s/352866809420

Thanks for 3 very constructive replies.

Tim, the o/d was measured with vernier caliper, but a fraction of a mm either way may not be critical as the roller o/d is not in contact with the blade if set up correctly . The i/d is to suit a 5mm screw. Length again measured with v. caliper but not critical. Thanks for the offer to print a couple which I will hold in reserve, see reply to Fredxx below.

Dave, yes I had thought of doing something like that on my wood turning lathe but was hoping to find something off the shelf.

Fredxx, thanks for the link. I had been searching for nylon bar or tube - it didn't occur to me to search for "spacer"! They have some with 12.7 o/d x 5.6 i/d x 25mm long, so I've ordered a pack of 10 for a couple of quid. May be a sloppy fit on the 5mm screw but could be OK.

Thanks again for your responses, I'll let you know how I get on.

Pete


Thanks for your further reply Tim. As I said, can I hold your offers in reserve in case the ones I've ordered turn out to be no good?

Cheers
Pete
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On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 15:22:39 -0700 (PDT), petek
wrote:
snip

Tim, the o/d was measured with vernier caliper, but a fraction of a mm either way may not be critical as the roller o/d is not in contact with the blade if set up correctly .


Understood. I was asking because I was wondering if something that old
may have been made with Imperial measurement parts?

The i/d is to suit a 5mm screw.


That might have been a 1/4"? If you had a digital vernier couldn't you
get that on whatever the guide runs on as that sounds like it's the
one part that might need to be a reasonably good (free to turn easily
but not sloppy) fit?

Length again measured with v. caliper but not critical.


Understood.

snip

Thanks for your further reply Tim. As I said, can I hold your offers in reserve in case the ones I've ordered turn out to be no good?


Of course. ;-)

Once we know we have the key dimension(s) it would be very easy to
print as many as you need. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

p.s. I believe mine is a Burgess (I'll check when I go down the
workshop next) like this one:

https://www.gildings.co.uk/auction/l...lot=25257&sd=1
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On 18/08/2020 22:32, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 21:50:02 +0100, T i m wrote:

The blade guide rollers on my c.40 year old Burgess bandsaw are

badly worn and because of it's age replacement guide rollers
appear
unavailable. They appear to be made of nylon, 13mm o/d, 5mm i/d,

10mm long.

Measured with what OOI?

I'm sure Steve on "The Repair Shop" would just turn up a suitable bit of
nylon in the wink of an eye, but I haven't got a lathe like he has!

Few have these days.


Why do you need a lathe?

Get hold of a suitable short length of rod (eBay?) of say 15 mm dia,
cut a 10 mm length, carefully drill a 5 mm hole in the centre, fit a
snug bolt and nut through the hole with washers each side. Firmly fix
some abrasive paper on to a hard flat surafce. Put end of bolt in
power drill and with the drill running rub the nylon squarely on the
abrasive until you have the desired dia. Perhaps starting quite
coarse if you have a lot to remove then progressively finer to the
finished dia.

If you have a pillar drill with a table that can rotate fixing the
abrasive to the vertical table that can be swung against the
nylon/bolt in the chuck should produce a very good result. With less
agro than trying it handheld.

Or even have good dig about on eBay for rollers. Perhaps intended for
some thing else, garage doors? But I think they are nearer 20 mm dia
and not sure how they are fixed to the bar. You get the idea though.
B-)

Wot he said (both DIY and eBay)

Ideally you want a bench stand for your drill and I'd probably make up
two or three on a single length of bar, and then saw them up afterwards.
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On 18/08/2020 18:03, petek wrote:

The blade guide rollers on my c.40 year old Burgess bandsaw are badly
worn and because of it's age replacement guide rollers appear
unavailable. They appear to be made of nylon, 13mm o/d, 5mm i/d, 10mm
long. I'm sure Steve on "The Repair Shop" would just turn up a
suitable bit of nylon in the wink of an eye, but I haven't got a
lathe like he has! Or as much skill for that matter! Has anybody any
idea how I could get a couple made? Cheers


A few options spring to mind... You could substitute a bearing (or a
pair of them if you need the depth) - ones with 13mm OD and 4mm ID are
common. Many modern bandsaws use guide bearings - usually you set them
just set back from the teeth and a fag paper away from the blade. Mide
(Eletra Bekum) did not, but I got an after market upgrade for it to
replace the original guide blocks with bearings:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/e/e...ng_cutting.jpg


You could get a set of coolblocks[1] - they are usually 1/2" square. So
drill the centre, then pin to a board and offer up to a sander. Rotate
the blocks around the pivot against the sander until you have made them
round.

See how I made a wood guide bush ring he

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Router_inlay_jig

[1] or a dense wood or other material like delrin, or UHMW (bit of
plastic chopping board etc)




--
Cheers,

John.

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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/


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On 18/08/2020 23:07, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 22:32:17 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:


Why do you need a lathe?

Get hold of a suitable short length of rod (eBay?) of say 15 mm dia,
cut a 10 mm length, carefully drill a 5 mm hole in the centre,


That's the first reason ... ;-)


If you start with something larger in OD than you require, and drill the
right sized hole in it, then it does not matter if you are a bit off.

Yes, if you were in the back of India or on a desert island I'm sure
with enough material to work with you could eventually get a pair of
rollers that are concentric and worked.


I find its easy to get a very accurate and concentric ring of stuff
using nothing more than a fixed disc sander, and a circle truing jig[1]
- which is basically a small bit of ply or MDF that you can fix your
work to such that it can spin round a pivot, and can be offered to the
sander.

A lathe makes the whole process that much better / quicker. ;-)


Probably not allot in it TBH

[1] I made a "posh" version - a 8" square (ish) bit of 3/4" MDF with a
bar fixed to the underside, that fits snugly into the slot on the disc
sander's table so it will stay a fixed distance from the disc (the
simpler version - just use a clamp).

Then I routed a rebate perpendicular to the disc, and ripped a strip of
wood that fits snugly into the rebate, flush with the top.

To use it, drill your blank, and then partly drill the strip of wood at
the end with the same drill. Remove the drill, invert it and push it
through the work and into the strip. Set it up on the sander and tap the
strip toward the disc such that the corners of the work will touch the
spinning disc. Turn the work through a full circle round the drill bit
pinion, and then advance the strip. You will end up with a concentric part.

(the non posh version - bit of wood and a clamp or two)

Here using a Forstner bit as a pinion:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...andingRing.jpg

--
Cheers,

John.

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On Wed, 19 Aug 2020 12:33:35 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 18/08/2020 23:07, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 22:32:17 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:


Why do you need a lathe?

Get hold of a suitable short length of rod (eBay?) of say 15 mm dia,
cut a 10 mm length, carefully drill a 5 mm hole in the centre,


That's the first reason ... ;-)


If you start with something larger in OD than you require, and drill the
right sized hole in it, then it does not matter if you are a bit off.


No, true, assuming you can then hold said eccentric object rigidly
enough to bring the OD into concentricity.

Yes, if you were in the back of India or on a desert island I'm sure
with enough material to work with you could eventually get a pair of
rollers that are concentric and worked.


I find its easy to get a very accurate and concentric ring of stuff
using nothing more than a fixed disc sander, and a circle truing jig[1]
- which is basically a small bit of ply or MDF that you can fix your
work to such that it can spin round a pivot, and can be offered to the
sander.


Sure, anything 'can' be done but still requires quite a few tools and
'jigs'.

A lathe makes the whole process that much better / quicker. ;-)


Probably not allot in it TBH


Eh? It's *the* tool for that job, if not injection molding, especially
if you have to also make / setup jigs etc?

I just stick the stock in the 3jaw, face up the end, centre drill,
drill ID, slide out to live centre, do OD, part off the lengths ...
done and very true / concentric?

[1] I made a "posh" version - a 8" square (ish) bit of 3/4" MDF with a
bar fixed to the underside, that fits snugly into the slot on the disc
sander's table so it will stay a fixed distance from the disc (the
simpler version - just use a clamp).


'Disk sanders table ...' ... ;-)

Then I routed a rebate perpendicular to the disc,


Router ... ;-)

and ripped a strip of
wood


Saw table ... ;-)

that fits snugly into the rebate, flush with the top.


Peasy.

To use it, drill your blank, and then partly drill the strip of wood at
the end with the same drill. Remove the drill, invert it and push it
through the work and into the strip. Set it up on the sander and tap the
strip toward the disc such that the corners of the work will touch the
spinning disc. Turn the work through a full circle round the drill bit
pinion, and then advance the strip. You will end up with a concentric part.


And you accurately control the od how?

(the non posh version - bit of wood and a clamp or two)

Here using a Forstner bit as a pinion:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...andingRing.jpg


Neat. I can see how it could work but question how good it might be
for even nylon, compared with a lathe ... and especially for anything
longer (tube V washer etc)?

Not that Pete's guide rollers necessitated any super high tolerance
but if you have that to hand ...

I can't remember the exact setup but I was wondering if you couldn't
find some suitable ID/OD bearings to fill the gap and let it run on
them?

Cheers, T i m
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On 19/08/2020 13:23, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 19 Aug 2020 12:33:35 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 18/08/2020 23:07, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 22:32:17 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:


Why do you need a lathe?

Get hold of a suitable short length of rod (eBay?) of say 15 mm dia,
cut a 10 mm length, carefully drill a 5 mm hole in the centre,

That's the first reason ... ;-)


If you start with something larger in OD than you require, and drill the
right sized hole in it, then it does not matter if you are a bit off.


No, true, assuming you can then hold said eccentric object rigidly
enough to bring the OD into concentricity.

Yes, if you were in the back of India or on a desert island I'm sure
with enough material to work with you could eventually get a pair of
rollers that are concentric and worked.


I find its easy to get a very accurate and concentric ring of stuff
using nothing more than a fixed disc sander, and a circle truing jig[1]
- which is basically a small bit of ply or MDF that you can fix your
work to such that it can spin round a pivot, and can be offered to the
sander.


Sure, anything 'can' be done but still requires quite a few tools and
'jigs'.

A lathe makes the whole process that much better / quicker. ;-)


Probably not allot in it TBH


Eh? It's *the* tool for that job, if not injection molding, especially
if you have to also make / setup jigs etc?


I was referring to the speed aspect - and for the level of accuracy
required. If you can tolerate a couple of thou, then you can sand to that.

Jigs can be *really* basic if only doing a one off job. I made posher
versions because I need to true up a number of bandsaw cut cogs.

I just stick the stock in the 3jaw, face up the end, centre drill,
drill ID, slide out to live centre, do OD, part off the lengths ...
done and very true / concentric?


Indeed, I am familiar with a lathe :-)

[1] I made a "posh" version - a 8" square (ish) bit of 3/4" MDF with a
bar fixed to the underside, that fits snugly into the slot on the disc
sander's table so it will stay a fixed distance from the disc (the
simpler version - just use a clamp).


'Disk sanders table ...' ... ;-)

Then I routed a rebate perpendicular to the disc,


Router ... ;-)

and ripped a strip of
wood


Saw table ... ;-)

that fits snugly into the rebate, flush with the top.


Peasy.


As I said, scrap of wood, and a clamp will do it for a one off.

To use it, drill your blank, and then partly drill the strip of wood at
the end with the same drill. Remove the drill, invert it and push it
through the work and into the strip. Set it up on the sander and tap the
strip toward the disc such that the corners of the work will touch the
spinning disc. Turn the work through a full circle round the drill bit
pinion, and then advance the strip. You will end up with a concentric part.


And you accurately control the od how?


You are rotating the work on an accurate spindle (i.e. the drill bit
that made the clearance hole though it) at a fixed distance from the
sander. Once spun through 360 degrees, you will have a very accurate
circle concentric with the pivot.

(the non posh version - bit of wood and a clamp or two)

Here using a Forstner bit as a pinion:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...andingRing.jpg


Neat. I can see how it could work but question how good it might be
for even nylon, compared with a lathe ... and especially for anything
longer (tube V washer etc)?


ISTR it was only 10mm required - should not be a problem.

Not that Pete's guide rollers necessitated any super high tolerance
but if you have that to hand ...

I can't remember the exact setup but I was wondering if you couldn't
find some suitable ID/OD bearings to fill the gap and let it run on
them?


Yup that was my first suggestion - its actually what my bandsaw uses
anyway.


--
Cheers,

John.

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On Wed, 19 Aug 2020 13:56:47 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

Jigs can be *really* basic if only doing a one off job. I made posher
versions because I need to true up a number of bandsaw cut cogs.


(...)

As I said, scrap of wood, and a clamp will do it for a one off.


Clamp? that's posh...

I have done, for round bits of wood, i.e. tabletops, using an edge sander (a
belt sander with the belt running horizontally):

Pinion is a bit of nail, not penetrating, just into the underside. The jig: the
pinion is the finished radius from the (straight) edge of a largish bit of scrap
wood. The workpiece sticks out over the edge. Offer the jig with the edge of the
workpiece to the sander, and sand until the edge of the jig just touches the
sanding belt. Then, holding the scrap wood in place, rotate the workpiece into
the belt (into! otherwise the belt will snatch). Continue round.

This takes practice, but one hand controls the rotation and the other how close
to the belt you are. So it allows you to sand off a lot, so you can zip around
with the bandsaw and not have to hew to the line. And it is really fast to set
up. Not using a clamp means that if it does snatch (and it will the second you
get impatient and less than gentle feeding the material) everything just moves
away a bit and nothing goes flying, nor does the belt break...

For the bandsaw, I'd look for a ball bearing, maybe: "Ball Bearing 695 ZZ 5x13x4
mm", and stack two with a bit of washer. First price I see is 0,81‚¬ per piece,
if buying four.

Or look at a "drill bushing", and see if any suit.



Thomas Prufer

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On Wed, 19 Aug 2020 13:56:47 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

Eh? It's *the* tool for that job, if not injection molding, especially
if you have to also make / setup jigs etc?


I was referring to the speed aspect - and for the level of accuracy
required. If you can tolerate a couple of thou, then you can sand to that.


Sure, but I still question the concentricity (within the general
tolerance etc). If you are rotating something by hand the rate at
which (and to what depth) can vary as a function of how fast you
present the work to the cutter. So, even if you rotate it several
times there may be bits that may have been 'overcut' as you first
presented them that are then lower than the surroundings. Not a
problem of making a woodwork washer but might if concentricity could
be relevant (like guide rollers that subsequently 'stick' in the same
places and then gain further flats). I'm not saying your solution
doesn't work, it obviously would / does, just that I wouldn't use it
against turning or 3D printing (if either were available and the
materials suitable etc).

Jigs can be *really* basic if only doing a one off job. I made posher
versions because I need to true up a number of bandsaw cut cogs.


Oh, I'm sure for certain scales and styles of work they can be more
than adequate.

I just stick the stock in the 3jaw, face up the end, centre drill,
drill ID, slide out to live centre, do OD, part off the lengths ...
done and very true / concentric?


Indeed, I am familiar with a lathe :-)


Just checking. ;-)

snip

And you accurately control the od how?


You are rotating the work on an accurate spindle (i.e. the drill bit
that made the clearance hole though it)


That will often have an element of slack on it and so wouldn't
typically be used as a mandrel on any similar lathe based job.

at a fixed distance from the
sander. Once spun through 360 degrees, you will have a very accurate
circle concentric with the pivot.


'Very accurate' ... for that level of equipment / use. eg, I'm not
sure NASA would use it for *anything*. ;-)

(the non posh version - bit of wood and a clamp or two)

Here using a Forstner bit as a pinion:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...andingRing.jpg


Neat. I can see how it could work but question how good it might be
for even nylon, compared with a lathe ... and especially for anything
longer (tube V washer etc)?


ISTR it was only 10mm required - should not be a problem.


Knowing how even leaning on a toolpost can make a difference, and
certainly any backlash on pretty well any of it, again I can't see
that other than for an approximation of 'true'.

Not that Pete's guide rollers necessitated any super high tolerance
but if you have that to hand ...

I can't remember the exact setup but I was wondering if you couldn't
find some suitable ID/OD bearings to fill the gap and let it run on
them?


Yup that was my first suggestion - its actually what my bandsaw uses
anyway.


My metal cutting horizontal bandsaw certainly does but then they are
twisting the blade though 45 degrees (and managing them back).[1]

I think on my small bench bandsaw (I believe a Burgess as per the
OP's) the 'guides' are simply there to stop the blade wandering
sideways (too far) in use. They don't hold the blade tight enough to
stop it twisting a bit if you rotate the work too fast etc.

Cheers, T i m

[1] It was the 6" Clarke one from Machine Mart:

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/cbs4...l-cutting-ban/

Bought when I was making the 3 off 6' 6" steel doors and fame to
replace the up-and-over that came with my sectional workshop.

It was doing really well till one of the blade management bearings
failed and from inspection I found they were all 'cheap and nasty'.
Replaced with SKF or similar and they have lasted 10x longer already.
;-)


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Default Band saw guide rollers

On 19/08/2020 14:38, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 19 Aug 2020 13:56:47 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

Eh? It's *the* tool for that job, if not injection molding, especially
if you have to also make / setup jigs etc?


I was referring to the speed aspect - and for the level of accuracy
required. If you can tolerate a couple of thou, then you can sand to that.


Sure, but I still question the concentricity (within the general
tolerance etc). If you are rotating something by hand the rate at
which (and to what depth) can vary as a function of how fast you
present the work to the cutter. So, even if you rotate it several
times there may be bits that may have been 'overcut' as you first
presented them that are then lower than the surroundings.


I can't quite visualise how you would do that - if the pinion distance
from the "cutter" is fixed and rigidly supported, then you can't cut any
closer than that distance - same as with something spinning on a lathe
and the cutter held on the tool post.

Sure a lathe will be more accurate, but if you ain't got one, and the
sanding method is "good enough", then not much to worry about.

Not a
problem of making a woodwork washer but might if concentricity could
be relevant (like guide rollers that subsequently 'stick' in the same
places and then gain further flats). I'm not saying your solution
doesn't work, it obviously would / does, just that I wouldn't use it
against turning or 3D printing (if either were available and the
materials suitable etc).

Jigs can be *really* basic if only doing a one off job. I made posher
versions because I need to true up a number of bandsaw cut cogs.


Oh, I'm sure for certain scales and styles of work they can be more
than adequate.

I just stick the stock in the 3jaw, face up the end, centre drill,
drill ID, slide out to live centre, do OD, part off the lengths ...
done and very true / concentric?


Indeed, I am familiar with a lathe :-)


Just checking. ;-)

snip

And you accurately control the od how?


You are rotating the work on an accurate spindle (i.e. the drill bit
that made the clearance hole though it)


That will often have an element of slack on it and so wouldn't
typically be used as a mandrel on any similar lathe based job.


IME, if you use the shank of the drill for your mandrel, its close
enough in wood.

(if worried and you have a set of tap drills, drill your holes 0.1mm
undersized)


at a fixed distance from the
sander. Once spun through 360 degrees, you will have a very accurate
circle concentric with the pivot.


'Very accurate' ... for that level of equipment / use. eg, I'm not
sure NASA would use it for *anything*. ;-)


Perhaps for a guide bush on one of their bandsaws? :-)


(the non posh version - bit of wood and a clamp or two)

Here using a Forstner bit as a pinion:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...andingRing.jpg

Neat. I can see how it could work but question how good it might be
for even nylon, compared with a lathe ... and especially for anything
longer (tube V washer etc)?


ISTR it was only 10mm required - should not be a problem.


Knowing how even leaning on a toolpost can make a difference, and
certainly any backlash on pretty well any of it, again I can't see
that other than for an approximation of 'true'.


Well that's true of any engineering. You use a three jaw chuck, or make
a measurement with a caliper etc, or even make a cut on a hot workpiece
those will also be approximations. The important question is will if be
fit for purpose when done?


Not that Pete's guide rollers necessitated any super high tolerance
but if you have that to hand ...

I can't remember the exact setup but I was wondering if you couldn't
find some suitable ID/OD bearings to fill the gap and let it run on
them?


Yup that was my first suggestion - its actually what my bandsaw uses
anyway.


My metal cutting horizontal bandsaw certainly does but then they are
twisting the blade though 45 degrees (and managing them back).[1]

I think on my small bench bandsaw (I believe a Burgess as per the
OP's) the 'guides' are simply there to stop the blade wandering
sideways (too far) in use. They don't hold the blade tight enough to
stop it twisting a bit if you rotate the work too fast etc.


Yup, guides not actually touching the blade is generally best practice -
they should only contact under cutting loads.


Cheers, T i m

[1] It was the 6" Clarke one from Machine Mart:

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/cbs4...l-cutting-ban/

Bought when I was making the 3 off 6' 6" steel doors and fame to
replace the up-and-over that came with my sectional workshop.

It was doing really well till one of the blade management bearings
failed and from inspection I found they were all 'cheap and nasty'.
Replaced with SKF or similar and they have lasted 10x longer already.
;-)


Yeah, MM stuff does seem to vary in quality from just about ok to not as
good!



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/
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Default Band saw guide rollers

On Wednesday, 19 August 2020 07:09:06 UTC+1, T i m wrote:

p.s. I believe mine is a Burgess (I'll check when I go down the
workshop next) like this one:

https://www.gildings.co.uk/auction/l...lot=25257&sd=1


Awful things. I got one for free once. Eventually concluded the reason the blades snap so readily is nothing to do with the tighter radius of 3 wheels, but rather the absence of tyres plus absence of anything to wipe sawdust buildup off the blade. Wipe it very frequently in use & it was ok, though the cutting capacity was pathetic.


NT
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Default Band saw guide rollers

On Wed, 19 Aug 2020 15:32:26 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

snip
Sure, but I still question the concentricity (within the general
tolerance etc). If you are rotating something by hand the rate at
which (and to what depth) can vary as a function of how fast you
present the work to the cutter. So, even if you rotate it several
times there may be bits that may have been 'overcut' as you first
presented them that are then lower than the surroundings.


I can't quite visualise how you would do that - if the pinion distance
from the "cutter" is fixed and rigidly supported, then you can't cut any
closer than that distance - same as with something spinning on a lathe
and the cutter held on the tool post.


Except when the tool 'digs in' and draws the cutter harder into the
job? As I'm sure you know, very little of what we consider 'rigid'
actually is under all circumstances and so if when you rotate your
piece against the sanding disk, given you will likely be doing so at
slightly different speeds (stop start) and potentially with different
amounts of material to remove, the 'machine' will give / flex
slightly.

If you are turning then stop ... then carry on, you will see that line
where you stopped because the tool with settle further into the work,
cutting more than when the tool was moving over the job and being
pushed away slightly as it does so (to every action there is an equal
and opposite reaction). ;-)

Sure a lathe will be more accurate, but if you ain't got one, and the
sanding method is "good enough", then not much to worry about.


Yes, if. If I was making a thin wooden washer to go behind a drawn
knob in wood I might well use your technique because it would be
adequate for that level of accuracy. If I was doing anything that was
any level of engineering solution I think I would look for another
solution if I didn't have a lathe. Maybe it's because I have one I now
can't consider any other way (other than 3D printing etc).

snip

You are rotating the work on an accurate spindle (i.e. the drill bit
that made the clearance hole though it)


That will often have an element of slack on it and so wouldn't
typically be used as a mandrel on any similar lathe based job.


IME, if you use the shank of the drill for your mandrel, its close
enough in wood.


Yes, agreed ... and maybe any other 'plastic' material that could
close up / flex slightly whilst being drilled so the hole stays
slightly small.

(if worried and you have a set of tap drills, drill your holes 0.1mm
undersized).


Check.

at a fixed distance from the
sander. Once spun through 360 degrees, you will have a very accurate
circle concentric with the pivot.


'Very accurate' ... for that level of equipment / use. eg, I'm not
sure NASA would use it for *anything*. ;-)


Perhaps for a guide bush on one of their bandsaws? :-)


Hehe.

snip

Knowing how even leaning on a toolpost can make a difference, and
certainly any backlash on pretty well any of it, again I can't see
that other than for an approximation of 'true'.


Well that's true of any engineering. You use a three jaw chuck, or make
a measurement with a caliper etc, or even make a cut on a hot workpiece
those will also be approximations.


Quite.

The important question is will if be
fit for purpose when done?


Agreed.


snip

My metal cutting horizontal bandsaw certainly does but then they are
twisting the blade though 45 degrees (and managing them back).[1]

I think on my small bench bandsaw (I believe a Burgess as per the
OP's) the 'guides' are simply there to stop the blade wandering
sideways (too far) in use. They don't hold the blade tight enough to
stop it twisting a bit if you rotate the work too fast etc.


Yup, guides not actually touching the blade is generally best practice -
they should only contact under cutting loads.


Agreed.


snip


It was doing really well till one of the blade management bearings
failed and from inspection I found they were all 'cheap and nasty'.
Replaced with SKF or similar and they have lasted 10x longer already.
;-)


Yeah, MM stuff does seem to vary in quality from just about ok to not as
good!


TBF, most of the (possibly selected as to be 'likely to be ok') I've
bought from there has been fine, or certainly reasonable VFM and
before the same stuff (often re-badged) was available on ebay.

Things like magnetic welding clamps, the cast iron grinder pedestal,
or even the 10 tonne hydraulic press where basic robust engineering
are all that's required. The 6" bandsaw is still pretty 'tight', even
after a fair amount of use but only after the supplied bearings were
replaced with proper ones (about the only bit of it where they seem to
or were able to cut corners).

Cheers, T i m



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Default Band saw guide rollers

Or get quite a few made and flog the surplus on ebay?

Brian

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Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 10:03:53 -0700 (PDT), petek
wrote:

The blade guide rollers on my c.40 year old Burgess bandsaw are badly worn
and because of it's age replacement guide rollers appear unavailable. They
appear to be made of nylon, 13mm o/d, 5mm i/d, 10mm long.


Measured with what OOI?

I'm sure Steve on "The Repair Shop" would just turn up a suitable bit of
nylon in the wink of an eye, but I haven't got a lathe like he has!


Few have these days.

Or as much skill for that matter!


It's mostly practice.

Has anybody any idea how I could get a couple made?


Any job like that is likely to cost more than the saw cost to replace
(these days) so it's down to finding someone with one and some nylon
stock that wants to do it for the S&G's.

I wonder how well some 3D printed ones would work? I'm only setup for
PLA and they would be very easy to design / print [1] but it depends
how much friction was on them and how hot they got as to how long they
might last?

If we are confident in the dimensions I'm happy to print you some (4?)
and stick em in the post?

Failing that, when I get round to the end of my own list and near my
lathe ...

Cheers, T i m

[1]
Open Sketchup
Draw circle radius 2.5mm
Draw concentric circle radius 6.5mm
Delete inner 'hole'.
Drag ring up 10mm to form tube.
Export as .stl.
Open Repetior Host and select previous file.
Duplicate 1 to 4 off.
Select 100% infill.
Slice with Slic3r
Save .gcode file to SD card.
Put SD card in 3D printer and select file, print.
10 mins later, pick up 3d objects created out of nowhere!




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Default Band saw guide rollers

It could be true that they are some kind of standard product, but do be
aware that Nylon comes in different harnesses too, and unless you know what
they used it might not last long if it was user filable, if that is a word.
Do they have to be Nylon? I'd have thought metal ones would outlast the
device.
Brian

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This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
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Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
idual.net...
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 21:50:02 +0100, T i m wrote:

The blade guide rollers on my c.40 year old Burgess bandsaw are

badly worn and because of it's age replacement guide rollers
appear
unavailable. They appear to be made of nylon, 13mm o/d, 5mm i/d,

10mm long.

Measured with what OOI?

I'm sure Steve on "The Repair Shop" would just turn up a suitable bit of
nylon in the wink of an eye, but I haven't got a lathe like he has!

Few have these days.


Why do you need a lathe?

Get hold of a suitable short length of rod (eBay?) of say 15 mm dia,
cut a 10 mm length, carefully drill a 5 mm hole in the centre, fit a
snug bolt and nut through the hole with washers each side. Firmly fix
some abrasive paper on to a hard flat surafce. Put end of bolt in
power drill and with the drill running rub the nylon squarely on the
abrasive until you have the desired dia. Perhaps starting quite
coarse if you have a lot to remove then progressively finer to the
finished dia.

If you have a pillar drill with a table that can rotate fixing the
abrasive to the vertical table that can be swung against the
nylon/bolt in the chuck should produce a very good result. With less
agro than trying it handheld.

Or even have good dig about on eBay for rollers. Perhaps intended for
some thing else, garage doors? But I think they are nearer 20 mm dia
and not sure how they are fixed to the bar. You get the idea though.
B-)

--
Cheers
Dave.







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Default Band saw guide rollers

On Thursday, August 20, 2020 at 10:08:22 AM UTC+1, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
It could be true that they are some kind of standard product, but do be
aware that Nylon comes in different harnesses too, and unless you know what
they used it might not last long if it was user filable, if that is a word.
Do they have to be Nylon? I'd have thought metal ones would outlast the
device.
Brian

--
--
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 21:50:02 +0100, T i m wrote:

The blade guide rollers on my c.40 year old Burgess bandsaw are

badly worn and because of it's age replacement guide rollers
appear
unavailable. They appear to be made of nylon, 13mm o/d, 5mm i/d,

10mm long.

Measured with what OOI?

I'm sure Steve on "The Repair Shop" would just turn up a suitable bit of
nylon in the wink of an eye, but I haven't got a lathe like he has!

Few have these days.


Why do you need a lathe?

Get hold of a suitable short length of rod (eBay?) of say 15 mm dia,
cut a 10 mm length, carefully drill a 5 mm hole in the centre, fit a
snug bolt and nut through the hole with washers each side. Firmly fix
some abrasive paper on to a hard flat surafce. Put end of bolt in
power drill and with the drill running rub the nylon squarely on the
abrasive until you have the desired dia. Perhaps starting quite
coarse if you have a lot to remove then progressively finer to the
finished dia.

If you have a pillar drill with a table that can rotate fixing the
abrasive to the vertical table that can be swung against the
nylon/bolt in the chuck should produce a very good result. With less
agro than trying it handheld.

Or even have good dig about on eBay for rollers. Perhaps intended for
some thing else, garage doors? But I think they are nearer 20 mm dia
and not sure how they are fixed to the bar. You get the idea though.
B-)

--
Cheers
Dave.



The replacement rollers ("spacers") I ordered on Ebay haven't arrived yet so I thought I'd clear up one or two queries in the meantime.

I'll try to describe the guide roller arrangement for those who are not familiar with 40 year old Burgess bandsaws! They are quite simple and I have seen more sophisticated arrangements on more recent bandsaws.

The top and bottom guide assemblies are identical. Each one comprises a rear roller and a front roller whose longitudinal axes are perpendicular to the blade.
The rear roller is steel and has a concentric groove. the blade runs in this groove and the back edge of the blade runs against the bottom of the groove thus supporting the blade against the thrust from the work piece. The sides of the groove are in close contact with the sides of the blade and help to prevent the blade twisting. These rollers on my saw are OK.

The front roller is made of Nylon or a similar plastic and when set up correctly runs very close to, but not touching, the teeth of the blade. If set up correctly it does not rotate as it is not in contact with the blade. It's purpose is to maintain the blade in position in the groove in the rear roller. Over the years this roller has been set incorrectly, too close to the blade, and has been chewed up somewhat by the teeth. (I should add that the saw had a previous owner). Indeed one of the rollers has been cut into two. These are the rollers I'm trying to replace, during a general clean up and refurb of the saw.

While the dimensions of the nylon rollers don't appear to be critical, I don't fancy trying to turn them up on my woodturning lathe in view of their size and the thickness of the skin on my fingertips. I'll only have a go at this in the last resort. I'm hoping that the ones I've ordered will do the job.

With regard to Tim's comments about imperial/metric sizing of the rollers I am surprised that they appear to be metric given the age of the saw, 1970/80's, and it's (I think) British design. The measurements I took with my vernier caliper seem to be exact multiples of millimetres rather than imperial equivalents.

Cheers
Pete
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On Thursday, August 20, 2020 at 11:33:19 PM UTC+1, petek wrote:
On Thursday, August 20, 2020 at 10:08:22 AM UTC+1, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
It could be true that they are some kind of standard product, but do be
aware that Nylon comes in different harnesses too, and unless you know what
they used it might not last long if it was user filable, if that is a word.
Do they have to be Nylon? I'd have thought metal ones would outlast the
device.
Brian

--
--
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 21:50:02 +0100, T i m wrote:

The blade guide rollers on my c.40 year old Burgess bandsaw are
badly worn and because of it's age replacement guide rollers
appear
unavailable. They appear to be made of nylon, 13mm o/d, 5mm i/d,
10mm long.

Measured with what OOI?

I'm sure Steve on "The Repair Shop" would just turn up a suitable bit of
nylon in the wink of an eye, but I haven't got a lathe like he has!

Few have these days.

Why do you need a lathe?

Get hold of a suitable short length of rod (eBay?) of say 15 mm dia,
cut a 10 mm length, carefully drill a 5 mm hole in the centre, fit a
snug bolt and nut through the hole with washers each side. Firmly fix
some abrasive paper on to a hard flat surafce. Put end of bolt in
power drill and with the drill running rub the nylon squarely on the
abrasive until you have the desired dia. Perhaps starting quite
coarse if you have a lot to remove then progressively finer to the
finished dia.

If you have a pillar drill with a table that can rotate fixing the
abrasive to the vertical table that can be swung against the
nylon/bolt in the chuck should produce a very good result. With less
agro than trying it handheld.

Or even have good dig about on eBay for rollers. Perhaps intended for
some thing else, garage doors? But I think they are nearer 20 mm dia
and not sure how they are fixed to the bar. You get the idea though.
B-)

--
Cheers
Dave.



The replacement rollers ("spacers") I ordered on Ebay haven't arrived yet so I thought I'd clear up one or two queries in the meantime.

I'll try to describe the guide roller arrangement for those who are not familiar with 40 year old Burgess bandsaws! They are quite simple and I have seen more sophisticated arrangements on more recent bandsaws.

The top and bottom guide assemblies are identical. Each one comprises a rear roller and a front roller whose longitudinal axes are perpendicular to the blade.
The rear roller is steel and has a concentric groove. the blade runs in this groove and the back edge of the blade runs against the bottom of the groove thus supporting the blade against the thrust from the work piece. The sides of the groove are in close contact with the sides of the blade and help to prevent the blade twisting. These rollers on my saw are OK.

The front roller is made of Nylon or a similar plastic and when set up correctly runs very close to, but not touching, the teeth of the blade. If set up correctly it does not rotate as it is not in contact with the blade. It's purpose is to maintain the blade in position in the groove in the rear roller. Over the years this roller has been set incorrectly, too close to the blade, and has been chewed up somewhat by the teeth. (I should add that the saw had a previous owner). Indeed one of the rollers has been cut into two. These are the rollers I'm trying to replace, during a general clean up and refurb of the saw.

While the dimensions of the nylon rollers don't appear to be critical, I don't fancy trying to turn them up on my woodturning lathe in view of their size and the thickness of the skin on my fingertips. I'll only have a go at this in the last resort. I'm hoping that the ones I've ordered will do the job.

With regard to Tim's comments about imperial/metric sizing of the rollers I am surprised that they appear to be metric given the age of the saw, 1970/80's, and it's (I think) British design. The measurements I took with my vernier caliper seem to be exact multiples of millimetres rather than imperial equivalents.

Cheers
Pete

Well, to all those who are still interested after my rambling post yesterday, the new spacers I ordered turned up (forgive the pun) in the post this morning and I'm pleased to report that they do the job exactly. A bit sloppy on the id but should be OK. I had to buy a min order of 10 and only needed 1 so I've now got 9 going spare. If there are any Burgess BBS20 owners out there who would like one or two, please get in touch.

Thanks again for all the help and constructive messages.

Cheers
Pete
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