Here in this block of flats, the plastic rising main pipework passes
vertically through the airing cupboard of each flat to the flat above.

Since the introduction of water meters each flat has individual
pipework, modified from the original. The modification is shoddy and
prone to leakage, with significant property damage to individual flats
ensuing.

The last plumber who came to fix a leak in the pipework running
through my flat said the problem would recur because between the 2
joints in the original black pipework is a section of blue plastic
pipe that is of a different diameter. The flexing of the pipework over
time causes these joints to leak. The plumber described the blue
pipework as being agricultural stuff.

The management company of the flats has a brief to keep the service
charges low, which causes them to drag their feet when it comes to
repairs, then when damage occurs as a result, the management company
attempts to pass the cost on to individual flat owners rather than
taking the money out of the service charge kitty.

Despite numerous phone calls, emails and signed for letters the office
will not acknowledge the problem in writing or explain why they will
not fix it. So my next step will have to be a solicitors letter.

Any thoughts on this problem?
--

Mike

On 18/08/2020 13:06, Mike Halmarack wrote:
The last plumber who came to fix a leak in the pipework running
through my flat said the problem would recur because between the 2
joints in the original black pipework is a section of blue plastic
pipe that is of a different diameter. The flexing of the pipework over
time causes these joints to leak. The plumber described the blue
pipework as being agricultural stuff.

That sounds like a bodge. The blue stuff is the correct pipework
for connecting a property to the mains supply, but normally just
a short length comes into the kitchen, from underground where it
connects to the house main stop cock.

Your plumber should be aware of the move from black plastic
to blue plastic pipework for water supply, because it
occurred a long time ago. The black stuff was commonly used in
the 1970's but does split with age under certain conditions.

Inside a block of flats, I'm rather surprised that there
weren't 22 mm copper risers to each flat from ground level.
Were they built this way originally, or was the black plastic
piping a retrofit ?.

On 18/08/2020 13:06, Mike Halmarack wrote:
Here in this block of flats, the plastic rising main pipework passes
vertically through the airing cupboard of each flat to the flat above.

Since the introduction of water meters each flat has individual
pipework, modified from the original. The modification is shoddy and
prone to leakage, with significant property damage to individual flats
ensuing.

The last plumber who came to fix a leak in the pipework running
through my flat said the problem would recur because between the 2
joints in the original black pipework is a section of blue plastic
pipe that is of a different diameter. The flexing of the pipework over
time causes these joints to leak. The plumber described the blue
pipework as being agricultural stuff.

The management company of the flats has a brief to keep the service
charges low, which causes them to drag their feet when it comes to
repairs, then when damage occurs as a result, the management company
attempts to pass the cost on to individual flat owners rather than
taking the money out of the service charge kitty.

Despite numerous phone calls, emails and signed for letters the office
will not acknowledge the problem in writing or explain why they will
not fix it. So my next step will have to be a solicitors letter.

Any thoughts on this problem?


Can you post a photo showing what it looks like?

Is there now a meter in each flat, or are all the meters in a single
location with individual supplies to each flat?
--
Cheers,
Roger

On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 13:26:52 +0100, Chris Hogg wrote:


Any thoughts on this problem?

Only to ask whether solicitors' letters carry any weight these days.
Many decades ago, the recipient was supposed to collapse into a
quivering heap of jelly and capitulate, but I'm not sure that happens
any more. Don't they just get binned?

I don't know what usually happens to them, as I've never sent one to
date. There may just be the continuation of a lack of response as a
result of the letter. But if it's worded right it will officially
document that lack of response, the unwillingness to acknowledge the
problem, and it will ask for an explanation as to why no remedial
action has been taken.

Then when I come home after being away for six months and I find the
place water damaged, I may have a better chance of financial redress.

On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 13:31:50 +0100, Andrew
wrote:


Your plumber should be aware of the move from black plastic
to blue plastic pipework for water supply, because it
occurred a long time ago. The black stuff was commonly used in
the 1970's but does split with age under certain conditions.

Inside a block of flats, I'm rather surprised that there
weren't 22 mm copper risers to each flat from ground level.
Were they built this way originally, or was the black plastic
piping a retrofit ?.

Thanks for the helpful explanation.
I don't know what was there originally. I just know that so many
compression joints coupled with stretches of dissimilar pipework has
so far been a recipe for expensive damage and shows every sign of
continuing to be so.
--

Mike

On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 13:53:58 +0100, Roger Mills
wrote:


Can you post a photo showing what it looks like?

Thanks I'll try to get a decent photo of the situation.

Is there now a meter in each flat, or are all the meters in a single
location with individual supplies to each flat?

I Imagine that the original single plastic pipe branched off at every
flat on the way up.

Since the meters, which are all on the lawn outside were introduced
this branching has been replaced by straight patches of dissimilar
pipe.
--

Mike

On 18 Aug 2020 13:07:21 GMT, Tim Streater
wrote:

On 18 Aug 2020 at 13:26:52 BST, Chris Hogg wrote:

On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 13:06:06 +0100, Mike Halmarack
wrote:

Here in this block of flats, the plastic rising main pipework passes
vertically through the airing cupboard of each flat to the flat above.

Since the introduction of water meters each flat has individual
pipework, modified from the original. The modification is shoddy and
prone to leakage, with significant property damage to individual flats
ensuing.

The last plumber who came to fix a leak in the pipework running
through my flat said the problem would recur because between the 2
joints in the original black pipework is a section of blue plastic
pipe that is of a different diameter. The flexing of the pipework over
time causes these joints to leak. The plumber described the blue
pipework as being agricultural stuff.

The management company of the flats has a brief to keep the service
charges low, which causes them to drag their feet when it comes to
repairs, then when damage occurs as a result, the management company
attempts to pass the cost on to individual flat owners rather than
taking the money out of the service charge kitty.

Despite numerous phone calls, emails and signed for letters the office
will not acknowledge the problem in writing or explain why they will
not fix it. So my next step will have to be a solicitors letter.

Any thoughts on this problem?

Only to ask whether solicitors' letters carry any weight these days.
Many decades ago, the recipient was supposed to collapse into a
quivering heap of jelly and capitulate, but I'm not sure that happens
any more. Don't they just get binned?

Is there a tenants committee? If not perhaps there should be.

Wer'e a bunch of oldies with long leases and joint freehold.
The management company was engaged with the brief to keep services
charges low, which they are.
Getting folks here to do anything much more than getting into and out
of (if lucky) ambulances is a task.
--

Mike

On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 13:53:58 +0100, Roger Mills
wrote:


Can you post a photo showing what it looks like?

https://i.postimg.cc/LssWL0T3/rising-main.jpg
--

Mike

On Tuesday, 18 August 2020 14:20:20 UTC+1, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On 18 Aug 2020 13:07:21 GMT, Tim Streater
wrote:

On 18 Aug 2020 at 13:26:52 BST, Chris Hogg wrote:

On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 13:06:06 +0100, Mike Halmarack
wrote:

Here in this block of flats, the plastic rising main pipework passes
vertically through the airing cupboard of each flat to the flat above..

Since the introduction of water meters each flat has individual
pipework, modified from the original. The modification is shoddy and
prone to leakage, with significant property damage to individual flats
ensuing.

The last plumber who came to fix a leak in the pipework running
through my flat said the problem would recur because between the 2
joints in the original black pipework is a section of blue plastic
pipe that is of a different diameter. The flexing of the pipework over
time causes these joints to leak. The plumber described the blue
pipework as being agricultural stuff.

The management company of the flats has a brief to keep the service
charges low, which causes them to drag their feet when it comes to
repairs, then when damage occurs as a result, the management company
attempts to pass the cost on to individual flat owners rather than
taking the money out of the service charge kitty.

Despite numerous phone calls, emails and signed for letters the office
will not acknowledge the problem in writing or explain why they will
not fix it. So my next step will have to be a solicitors letter.

Any thoughts on this problem?

Only to ask whether solicitors' letters carry any weight these days.
Many decades ago, the recipient was supposed to collapse into a
quivering heap of jelly and capitulate, but I'm not sure that happens
any more. Don't they just get binned?

Is there a tenants committee? If not perhaps there should be.

Wer'e a bunch of oldies with long leases and joint freehold.
The management company was engaged with the brief to keep services
charges low, which they are.
Getting folks here to do anything much more than getting into and out
of (if lucky) ambulances is a task.

I suspect your lack of evidence for need for work may be the prime issue. A written letter resulting from a survey commissioned on the plumbing in question might be more convincing. It probably would be worth including a cost assessement of doing nothing versus acting too.


NT

On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 07:16:33 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Tuesday, 18 August 2020 14:20:20 UTC+1, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On 18 Aug 2020 13:07:21 GMT, Tim Streater
wrote:

On 18 Aug 2020 at 13:26:52 BST, Chris Hogg wrote:

On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 13:06:06 +0100, Mike Halmarack
wrote:



I suspect your lack of evidence for need for work may be the prime issue. A written letter resulting from a survey commissioned on the plumbing in question might be more convincing. It probably would be worth including a cost assessement of doing nothing versus acting too.


NT
If regular fixes after property damage in the block is not evidence of
need for work, then I thank you for the advice and will look into
doing just that.
--

Mike

On Tuesday, 18 August 2020 15:33:45 UTC+1, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 07:16:33 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 18 August 2020 14:20:20 UTC+1, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On 18 Aug 2020 13:07:21 GMT, Tim Streater
wrote:

On 18 Aug 2020 at 13:26:52 BST, Chris Hogg wrote:

On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 13:06:06 +0100, Mike Halmarack
wrote:



I suspect your lack of evidence for need for work may be the prime issue.. A written letter resulting from a survey commissioned on the plumbing in question might be more convincing. It probably would be worth including a cost assessement of doing nothing versus acting too.


NT
If regular fixes after property damage in the block is not evidence of
need for work, then I thank you for the advice and will look into
doing just that.

People are often wilfully stupid/blind when asked to pay. A suitably qualified plumber's survey could end their opportunity to do that & expect to get away with it.


NT

On 18/08/2020 14:15, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 13:53:58 +0100, Roger Mills
wrote:


Can you post a photo showing what it looks like?

Thanks I'll try to get a decent photo of the situation.

Is there now a meter in each flat, or are all the meters in a single
location with individual supplies to each flat?

I Imagine that the original single plastic pipe branched off at every
flat on the way up.

Since the meters, which are all on the lawn outside were introduced
this branching has been replaced by straight patches of dissimilar
pipe.


Then where does this orphaned pipe actually go ?. If your meter
is outside then a separate supply must have been installed to each
flat, with all the disruption that this would have entailed.

I suspect the pipe with patches supplies the top flat, while all
the floors below have a their own dedicated supply from their own
meter. If so, it is the responsibility of the person on the top
floor to have it replaced with a continuous run of new pipe.

On 18/08/2020 14:39, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 13:53:58 +0100, Roger Mills
wrote:


Can you post a photo showing what it looks like?

https://i.postimg.cc/LssWL0T3/rising-main.jpg


But does this pipe supply water to your flat ?.

Do you have a photo of the pipe that connects to your
stopcock inside your flat ?.

On 18/08/2020 14:39, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 13:53:58 +0100, Roger Mills
wrote:


Can you post a photo showing what it looks like?

https://i.postimg.cc/LssWL0T3/rising-main.jpg


If the whole vertical run of this pipe is not mechanically
supported then the compression joints will be constantly
trying to pull themelves apart, which is not good.

On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 16:14:30 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 18/08/2020 14:15, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 13:53:58 +0100, Roger Mills
wrote:


Can you post a photo showing what it looks like?

Thanks I'll try to get a decent photo of the situation.

Is there now a meter in each flat, or are all the meters in a single
location with individual supplies to each flat?

I Imagine that the original single plastic pipe branched off at every
flat on the way up.

Since the meters, which are all on the lawn outside were introduced
this branching has been replaced by straight patches of dissimilar
pipe.


Then where does this orphaned pipe actually go ?. If your meter
is outside then a separate supply must have been installed to each
flat, with all the disruption that this would have entailed.

I suspect the pipe with patches supplies the top flat, while all
the floors below have a their own dedicated supply from their own
meter. If so, it is the responsibility of the person on the top
floor to have it replaced with a continuous run of new pipe.

I see what you mean. As I understand it the management company is
responsible for the services, the maintenance of which is payable from
the service charges to the whole community. It seems this charge is
kept low by the management company failing to maintain the services,
then when damage occurs laying the cost on indivdual flat owners.
This is comfortable for the general population and painful for the
individual.
--

Mike

On 18/08/2020 16:33, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 16:14:30 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 18/08/2020 14:15, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 13:53:58 +0100, Roger Mills
wrote:


Can you post a photo showing what it looks like?

Thanks I'll try to get a decent photo of the situation.

Is there now a meter in each flat, or are all the meters in a single
location with individual supplies to each flat?

I Imagine that the original single plastic pipe branched off at every
flat on the way up.

Since the meters, which are all on the lawn outside were introduced
this branching has been replaced by straight patches of dissimilar
pipe.


Then where does this orphaned pipe actually go ?. If your meter
is outside then a separate supply must have been installed to each
flat, with all the disruption that this would have entailed.

I suspect the pipe with patches supplies the top flat, while all
the floors below have a their own dedicated supply from their own
meter. If so, it is the responsibility of the person on the top
floor to have it replaced with a continuous run of new pipe.

I see what you mean. As I understand it the management company is
responsible for the services, the maintenance of which is payable from
the service charges to the whole community. It seems this charge is
kept low by the management company failing to maintain the services,
then when damage occurs laying the cost on indivdual flat owners.
This is comfortable for the general population and painful for the
individual.


You didn't answer the question though. Which flat is connected to
this patchwork pipe ?. why wasn't a new run of blue plastic pulled
through to replace it ?. Sounds like penny pinching to me.
These are the questions you need to find answers to.

On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 16:16:31 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 18/08/2020 14:39, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 13:53:58 +0100, Roger Mills
wrote:


Can you post a photo showing what it looks like?

https://i.postimg.cc/LssWL0T3/rising-main.jpg


But does this pipe supply water to your flat ?.

Do you have a photo of the pipe that connects to your
stopcock inside your flat ?.

https://i.postimg.cc/Kzk4KS8M/mystopcock.jpg
--

Mike

On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 16:41:00 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 18/08/2020 16:33, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 16:14:30 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 18/08/2020 14:15, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 13:53:58 +0100, Roger Mills
wrote:


Can you post a photo showing what it looks like?

Thanks I'll try to get a decent photo of the situation.

Is there now a meter in each flat, or are all the meters in a single
location with individual supplies to each flat?

I Imagine that the original single plastic pipe branched off at every
flat on the way up.

Since the meters, which are all on the lawn outside were introduced
this branching has been replaced by straight patches of dissimilar
pipe.


Then where does this orphaned pipe actually go ?. If your meter
is outside then a separate supply must have been installed to each
flat, with all the disruption that this would have entailed.

I suspect the pipe with patches supplies the top flat, while all
the floors below have a their own dedicated supply from their own
meter. If so, it is the responsibility of the person on the top
floor to have it replaced with a continuous run of new pipe.

I see what you mean. As I understand it the management company is
responsible for the services, the maintenance of which is payable from
the service charges to the whole community. It seems this charge is
kept low by the management company failing to maintain the services,
then when damage occurs laying the cost on indivdual flat owners.
This is comfortable for the general population and painful for the
individual.


You didn't answer the question though. Which flat is connected to
this patchwork pipe ?. why wasn't a new run of blue plastic pulled
through to replace it ?. Sounds like penny pinching to me.
These are the questions you need to find answers to.

Apologies the patched pipework does supply the top floor flat.

But the management company is responsible for the services and if they
fixed it properly the recurring problems would end.
It would be a tricky business for an individual flat owner to be
responsible for services running through other peoples flats.
That's my understanding of why the management company exists, to take
such responsibility.
--

Mike

On 18/08/2020 16:42, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 16:16:31 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 18/08/2020 14:39, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 13:53:58 +0100, Roger Mills
wrote:


Can you post a photo showing what it looks like?

https://i.postimg.cc/LssWL0T3/rising-main.jpg


But does this pipe supply water to your flat ?.

Do you have a photo of the pipe that connects to your
stopcock inside your flat ?.

https://i.postimg.cc/Kzk4KS8M/mystopcock.jpg


So there is a copper feed to your flat.

Do the vertical copper pipe going up and the
Tee connection that goes back into your floor
supply only your flat ?. If the meter is outside
then I assume yes.

Is there a residents association who could meet and discuss the issue then
approach the owners with a proposal. In this case I guess the owners a are
never going to win unless there is an agreement with the people in the
flats.
Brian

--
--
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Mike Halmarack" wrote in message
...
Here in this block of flats, the plastic rising main pipework passes
vertically through the airing cupboard of each flat to the flat above.

Since the introduction of water meters each flat has individual
pipework, modified from the original. The modification is shoddy and
prone to leakage, with significant property damage to individual flats
ensuing.

The last plumber who came to fix a leak in the pipework running
through my flat said the problem would recur because between the 2
joints in the original black pipework is a section of blue plastic
pipe that is of a different diameter. The flexing of the pipework over
time causes these joints to leak. The plumber described the blue
pipework as being agricultural stuff.

The management company of the flats has a brief to keep the service
charges low, which causes them to drag their feet when it comes to
repairs, then when damage occurs as a result, the management company
attempts to pass the cost on to individual flat owners rather than
taking the money out of the service charge kitty.

Despite numerous phone calls, emails and signed for letters the office
will not acknowledge the problem in writing or explain why they will
not fix it. So my next step will have to be a solicitors letter.

Any thoughts on this problem?
--

Mike

On 18/08/2020 16:54, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 16:41:00 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 18/08/2020 16:33, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 16:14:30 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 18/08/2020 14:15, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 13:53:58 +0100, Roger Mills
wrote:


Can you post a photo showing what it looks like?

Thanks I'll try to get a decent photo of the situation.

Is there now a meter in each flat, or are all the meters in a single
location with individual supplies to each flat?

I Imagine that the original single plastic pipe branched off at every
flat on the way up.

Since the meters, which are all on the lawn outside were introduced
this branching has been replaced by straight patches of dissimilar
pipe.


Then where does this orphaned pipe actually go ?. If your meter
is outside then a separate supply must have been installed to each
flat, with all the disruption that this would have entailed.

I suspect the pipe with patches supplies the top flat, while all
the floors below have a their own dedicated supply from their own
meter. If so, it is the responsibility of the person on the top
floor to have it replaced with a continuous run of new pipe.

I see what you mean. As I understand it the management company is
responsible for the services, the maintenance of which is payable from
the service charges to the whole community. It seems this charge is
kept low by the management company failing to maintain the services,
then when damage occurs laying the cost on indivdual flat owners.
This is comfortable for the general population and painful for the
individual.


You didn't answer the question though. Which flat is connected to
this patchwork pipe ?. why wasn't a new run of blue plastic pulled
through to replace it ?. Sounds like penny pinching to me.
These are the questions you need to find answers to.

Apologies the patched pipework does supply the top floor flat.

But the management company is responsible for the services and if they
fixed it properly the recurring problems would end.
It would be a tricky business for an individual flat owner to be
responsible for services running through other peoples flats.
That's my understanding of why the management company exists, to take
such responsibility.


the fact that any pipe goes through a number of floors (how many?)
raises the question of fire stopping. A kitchen fire on the ground
floor could travel up this void and affect other people.

How come only one patchwork pipe travels through your flat ?.
how many floors are there and how do the other floors get their
cold water supply ?.

isn't the 'management' company just you and all the other flat
owners ?.

On 18/08/2020 16:33, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 16:14:30 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 18/08/2020 14:15, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 13:53:58 +0100, Roger Mills
wrote:


Can you post a photo showing what it looks like?

Thanks I'll try to get a decent photo of the situation.

Is there now a meter in each flat, or are all the meters in a single
location with individual supplies to each flat?

I Imagine that the original single plastic pipe branched off at every
flat on the way up.

Since the meters, which are all on the lawn outside were introduced
this branching has been replaced by straight patches of dissimilar
pipe.


Then where does this orphaned pipe actually go ?. If your meter
is outside then a separate supply must have been installed to each
flat, with all the disruption that this would have entailed.

I suspect the pipe with patches supplies the top flat, while all
the floors below have a their own dedicated supply from their own
meter. If so, it is the responsibility of the person on the top
floor to have it replaced with a continuous run of new pipe.

I see what you mean. As I understand it the management company is
responsible for the services, the maintenance of which is payable from
the service charges to the whole community. It seems this charge is
kept low by the management company failing to maintain the services,
then when damage occurs laying the cost on indivdual flat owners.
This is comfortable for the general population and painful for the
individual.


Who is the "Landlord"? Is it the Management Company - or the entity that
owns the freehold - of which you are probably a shareholder if it's
jointly owned?

You presumably have a Lease? That should define exactly what each flat
owner ("tenant") and what the Landlord is responsible for.

I have a holiday flat which works in that way. The Landlord is a limited
company jointly owned by all the tenants. We don't employ an external
management company - we whack up the jobs amongst us - I look after the
finances and another flat owner looks after the maintenance. Provided
you're nor all gaga, it's the best way to do it.
--
Cheers,
Roger

On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 17:01:58 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 18/08/2020 16:54, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 16:41:00 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 18/08/2020 16:33, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 16:14:30 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 18/08/2020 14:15, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 13:53:58 +0100, Roger Mills
wrote:


Can you post a photo showing what it looks like?

Thanks I'll try to get a decent photo of the situation.

Is there now a meter in each flat, or are all the meters in a single
location with individual supplies to each flat?

I Imagine that the original single plastic pipe branched off at every
flat on the way up.

Since the meters, which are all on the lawn outside were introduced
this branching has been replaced by straight patches of dissimilar
pipe.


Then where does this orphaned pipe actually go ?. If your meter
is outside then a separate supply must have been installed to each
flat, with all the disruption that this would have entailed.

I suspect the pipe with patches supplies the top flat, while all
the floors below have a their own dedicated supply from their own
meter. If so, it is the responsibility of the person on the top
floor to have it replaced with a continuous run of new pipe.

I see what you mean. As I understand it the management company is
responsible for the services, the maintenance of which is payable from
the service charges to the whole community. It seems this charge is
kept low by the management company failing to maintain the services,
then when damage occurs laying the cost on indivdual flat owners.
This is comfortable for the general population and painful for the
individual.


You didn't answer the question though. Which flat is connected to
this patchwork pipe ?. why wasn't a new run of blue plastic pulled
through to replace it ?. Sounds like penny pinching to me.
These are the questions you need to find answers to.

Apologies the patched pipework does supply the top floor flat.

But the management company is responsible for the services and if they
fixed it properly the recurring problems would end.
It would be a tricky business for an individual flat owner to be
responsible for services running through other peoples flats.
That's my understanding of why the management company exists, to take
such responsibility.


the fact that any pipe goes through a number of floors (how many?)
raises the question of fire stopping. A kitchen fire on the ground
floor could travel up this void and affect other people.

3 floors. I'm sure you're right that it could be a fire hazard.

How come only one patchwork pipe travels through your flat ?.
how many floors are there and how do the other floors get their
cold water supply ?.

I'm in the middle between the ground floor and the top floor.
So, it's one motley run of plastic pipework through my flat to the top
floor flat.

isn't the 'management' company just you and all the other flat
owners ?.

The management company is employed by all the flat owners to do
management company stuff. So there's a diverse range of
responsibilities, one being that the management company is responsible
for the services.
--

Mike

On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 17:09:14 +0100, Roger Mills
wrote:

On 18/08/2020 16:33, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 16:14:30 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 18/08/2020 14:15, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 13:53:58 +0100, Roger Mills
wrote:


Can you post a photo showing what it looks like?

Thanks I'll try to get a decent photo of the situation.

Is there now a meter in each flat, or are all the meters in a single
location with individual supplies to each flat?

I Imagine that the original single plastic pipe branched off at every
flat on the way up.

Since the meters, which are all on the lawn outside were introduced
this branching has been replaced by straight patches of dissimilar
pipe.


Then where does this orphaned pipe actually go ?. If your meter
is outside then a separate supply must have been installed to each
flat, with all the disruption that this would have entailed.

I suspect the pipe with patches supplies the top flat, while all
the floors below have a their own dedicated supply from their own
meter. If so, it is the responsibility of the person on the top
floor to have it replaced with a continuous run of new pipe.

I see what you mean. As I understand it the management company is
responsible for the services, the maintenance of which is payable from
the service charges to the whole community. It seems this charge is
kept low by the management company failing to maintain the services,
then when damage occurs laying the cost on indivdual flat owners.
This is comfortable for the general population and painful for the
individual.


Who is the "Landlord"? Is it the Management Company - or the entity that
owns the freehold - of which you are probably a shareholder if it's
jointly owned?
Flat owners share the freehold.

You presumably have a Lease? That should define exactly what each flat
owner ("tenant") and what the Landlord is responsible for.

Yes, the "Landlord" is responsible for the services.

I have a holiday flat which works in that way. The Landlord is a limited
company jointly owned by all the tenants. We don't employ an external
management company - we whack up the jobs amongst us - I look after the
finances and another flat owner looks after the maintenance. Provided
you're nor all gaga, it's the best way to do it.

Yes, there have been various methods employed in the past. The
current management company have only been active here for two years.
This is after freelance activity engendered much psychological
bloodshed, I'm told.
As far as the gaga level is concerned I can only speak for myself by
saying that I'm well on the way.

On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 16:57:02 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 18/08/2020 16:42, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 16:16:31 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 18/08/2020 14:39, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 13:53:58 +0100, Roger Mills
wrote:


Can you post a photo showing what it looks like?

https://i.postimg.cc/LssWL0T3/rising-main.jpg


But does this pipe supply water to your flat ?.

Do you have a photo of the pipe that connects to your
stopcock inside your flat ?.

https://i.postimg.cc/Kzk4KS8M/mystopcock.jpg


So there is a copper feed to your flat.

Do the vertical copper pipe going up and the
Tee connection that goes back into your floor
supply only your flat ?. If the meter is outside
then I assume yes.

The copperwork starts as it comes through my floor and the whole of my
supply is then in copper. Not quite sure what happens beneath but at
leasst some of it is recently leaking plastic.

On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 16:59:26 +0100, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
wrote:

Is there a residents association who could meet and discuss the issue then
approach the owners with a proposal. In this case I guess the owners a are
never going to win unless there is an agreement with the people in the
flats.
Brian

There will be an Annual General Meeting some short while after
Coronavirus recedes. As I understand the process from historical
records there will be a pillory and some gentle witch burning.
--

Mike

Blue alkathene pipe costs peanuts. I'd suggest one rough and ready solution would be to replace the cobbled together runs with one length right through from meter to the flat served then use supporting clips about every metre or so. Maybe ideally it would be better to have used copper pipe for fire and rodent resistance but that would require multiple joints. I'd also make use of fire stopping foam where the pipes pass through floors.

Andrew Wrote in message:
On 18/08/2020 16:54, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 16:41:00 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 18/08/2020 16:33, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 16:14:30 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 18/08/2020 14:15, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 13:53:58 +0100, Roger Mills
wrote:


Can you post a photo showing what it looks like?

Thanks I'll try to get a decent photo of the situation.

Is there now a meter in each flat, or are all the meters in a single
location with individual supplies to each flat?

I Imagine that the original single plastic pipe branched off at every
flat on the way up.

Since the meters, which are all on the lawn outside were introduced
this branching has been replaced by straight patches of dissimilar
pipe.


Then where does this orphaned pipe actually go ?. If your meter
is outside then a separate supply must have been installed to each
flat, with all the disruption that this would have entailed.

I suspect the pipe with patches supplies the top flat, while all
the floors below have a their own dedicated supply from their own
meter. If so, it is the responsibility of the person on the top
floor to have it replaced with a continuous run of new pipe.

I see what you mean. As I understand it the management company is
responsible for the services, the maintenance of which is payable from
the service charges to the whole community. It seems this charge is
kept low by the management company failing to maintain the services,
then when damage occurs laying the cost on indivdual flat owners.
This is comfortable for the general population and painful for the
individual.


You didn't answer the question though. Which flat is connected to
this patchwork pipe ?. why wasn't a new run of blue plastic pulled
through to replace it ?. Sounds like penny pinching to me.
These are the questions you need to find answers to.

Apologies the patched pipework does supply the top floor flat.

But the management company is responsible for the services and if they
fixed it properly the recurring problems would end.
It would be a tricky business for an individual flat owner to be
responsible for services running through other peoples flats.
That's my understanding of why the management company exists, to take
such responsibility.


the fact that any pipe goes through a number of floors (how many?)
raises the question of fire stopping. A kitchen fire on the ground
floor could travel up this void and affect other people.

Shurely said fire would melt the pipes & self extinguish hopefully?

--
Jimk


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

Andrew Wrote in message:
On 18/08/2020 14:39, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 13:53:58 +0100, Roger Mills
wrote:


Can you post a photo showing what it looks like?

https://i.postimg.cc/LssWL0T3/rising-main.jpg


If the whole vertical run of this pipe is not mechanically
supported then the compression joints will be constantly
trying to pull themelves apart, which is not good.



This is three floors?
How do compression joints "pull themselves apart" exactly?
--
Jimk


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 18:42:32 +0100 (GMT+01:00), Jimk
wrote:

Andrew Wrote in message:
On 18/08/2020 14:39, Mike Halmarack wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 13:53:58 +0100, Roger Mills
wrote:


Can you post a photo showing what it looks like?

https://i.postimg.cc/LssWL0T3/rising-main.jpg


If the whole vertical run of this pipe is not mechanically
supported then the compression joints will be constantly
trying to pull themelves apart, which is not good.



This is three floors?
How do compression joints "pull themselves apart" exactly?

The last plumber who came around said that as the pipes flexed during
changes in pressure and on and off use, the joints worked loose.
This is made worse by bits of disimmilar pipe being connected
together. Also that the pipework is just hanging there, instead of
being held firmly in place by various possible means.
--

Mike

On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 11:37:28 -0700 (PDT), Cynic
wrote:

Blue alkathene pipe costs peanuts. I'd suggest one rough and ready solution would be to replace the cobbled together runs with one length right through from meter to the flat served then use supporting clips about every metre or so. Maybe ideally it would be better to have used copper pipe for fire and rodent resistance but that would require multiple joints. I'd also make use of fire stopping foam where the pipes pass through floors.

That seems like a very acceptable solution, thanks.
--

Mike

On 19/08/2020 09:26, Mike Halmarack wrote:
The last plumber who came around said that as the pipes flexed during
changes in pressure and on and off use, the joints worked loose.
This is made worse by bits of disimmilar pipe being connected
together. Also that the pipework is just hanging there, instead of
being held firmly in place by various possible means.

That reminds me of a conversation I had during a job I did in a 13 story
hotel in Durban, South Africa...

...The building manager said that the sewage from all floors fed a common
single massive plugged together riser...but unfortunately it had no
expansion joints, and in the hot Durban sun, the building expanded
several inches whilst the riser, in the air conditioned interior spaces,
did not...sewage spills were routine



--
€œBut what a weak barrier is truth when it stands in the way of an
hypothesis!€�

Mary Wollstonecraft

On Wed, 19 Aug 2020 10:12:33 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 19/08/2020 09:26, Mike Halmarack wrote:
The last plumber who came around said that as the pipes flexed during
changes in pressure and on and off use, the joints worked loose.
This is made worse by bits of disimmilar pipe being connected
together. Also that the pipework is just hanging there, instead of
being held firmly in place by various possible means.

That reminds me of a conversation I had during a job I did in a 13 story
hotel in Durban, South Africa...

..The building manager said that the sewage from all floors fed a common
single massive plugged together riser...but unfortunately it had no
expansion joints, and in the hot Durban sun, the building expanded
several inches whilst the riser, in the air conditioned interior spaces,
did not...sewage spills were routine

****! That would be the final straw.
--

Mike

On Wed, 19 Aug 2020 09:26:38 +0100, Mike Halmarack wrote:

Can you post a photo showing what it looks like?

https://i.postimg.cc/LssWL0T3/rising-main.jpg

Look closely the upper (black pipe) compression joint still has a
turn or so to go before the flanges meet. Presumably these ones are
tight and don't fail. The lower (blue pipe) looks to be as tight as
it can go as the flanges are together, this probably means that the
pipe isn't fully held and these joints fail.

It might be possible to find the correct sized sealing/gripping
insert/olive for that fitting and pipe size. Simply replacing those
so the joint can be tightend before the flanges meet may well cure
the problem.

If the whole vertical run of this pipe is not mechanically
supported then the compression joints will be constantly
trying to pull themelves apart, which is not good.

This is three floors?
How do compression joints "pull themselves apart" exactly?

The last plumber who came around said that as the pipes flexed during
changes in pressure and on and off use, the joints worked loose.
This is made worse by bits of disimmilar pipe being connected
together.

Different sized pipes shouldn't be a problem provided the fitting is
correctly sized for the pipe.

Also that the pipework is just hanging there, instead of being held
firmly in place by various possible means.

Even providing support for the weight of the pipe work may reduce the
frequency of failure. The joints may not be perfect but until the
pull out or get close to pulling out don't leak?

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Wed, 19 Aug 2020 13:03:56 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Aug 2020 09:26:38 +0100, Mike Halmarack wrote:

Can you post a photo showing what it looks like?

https://i.postimg.cc/LssWL0T3/rising-main.jpg

Look closely the upper (black pipe) compression joint still has a
turn or so to go before the flanges meet. Presumably these ones are
tight and don't fail. The lower (blue pipe) looks to be as tight as
it can go as the flanges are together, this probably means that the
pipe isn't fully held and these joints fail.

It might be possible to find the correct sized sealing/gripping
insert/olive for that fitting and pipe size. Simply replacing those
so the joint can be tightend before the flanges meet may well cure
the problem.

If the whole vertical run of this pipe is not mechanically
supported then the compression joints will be constantly
trying to pull themelves apart, which is not good.

This is three floors?
How do compression joints "pull themselves apart" exactly?

The last plumber who came around said that as the pipes flexed during
changes in pressure and on and off use, the joints worked loose.
This is made worse by bits of disimmilar pipe being connected
together.

Different sized pipes shouldn't be a problem provided the fitting is
correctly sized for the pipe.

Also that the pipework is just hanging there, instead of being held
firmly in place by various possible means.

Even providing support for the weight of the pipe work may reduce the
frequency of failure. The joints may not be perfect but until the
pull out or get close to pulling out don't leak?

Every little helps on the road to good enough.
--

Mike