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Default Advice needed - diagonal crack in internal wall, matching on both sides of the wall

Hello. I have a back-to-back red brick mid terrace house in the UK. There is a
large crack in an internal wall on the 2nd floor. The wall between the
bathroom and the bedroom. The crack runs diagonally up in a step pattern from
the bottom corner where the wall joins the external wall. The crack is visible
on both sides of the wall. It is no more than 5mm wide at its widest parts. I
cants see signs of cracks on the walls below. Can this be due to the support
of the 2nd floor weakening? Or is the wall bowing. Please can anyone help me
work out what is happening and what might need doing to fix it please

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Default Advice needed - diagonal crack in internal wall,matching on both sides of the wall

H Poules m wrote:
Hello. I have a back-to-back red brick mid terrace house in the UK. There is a
large crack in an internal wall on the 2nd floor. The wall between the
bathroom and the bedroom. The crack runs diagonally up in a step pattern from
the bottom corner where the wall joins the external wall. The crack is visible
on both sides of the wall. It is no more than 5mm wide at its widest parts. I
cants see signs of cracks on the walls below. Can this be due to the support
of the 2nd floor weakening? Or is the wall bowing. Please can anyone help me
work out what is happening and what might need doing to fix it please


A picture is worth a thousand words...

Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls
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Default Advice needed - diagonal crack in internal wall, matching on bothsides of the wall

On Friday, August 14, 2020 at 10:44:04 PM UTC+1, H Poules wrote:
Hello. I have a back-to-back red brick mid terrace house in the UK. There is a
large crack in an internal wall on the 2nd floor. The wall between the
bathroom and the bedroom. The crack runs diagonally up in a step pattern from
the bottom corner where the wall joins the external wall. The crack is visible
on both sides of the wall. It is no more than 5mm wide at its widest parts. I
cants see signs of cracks on the walls below. Can this be due to the support
of the 2nd floor weakening? Or is the wall bowing. Please can anyone help me
work out what is happening and what might need doing to fix it please

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy...n-1445981-.htm


The important thing is that it doesn't get any bigger. if it's still moving you have trouble.
It needs to be monitored fora few weeks.
A lot of old houses built on clay didn't have the foundations deep enough. In dry weather clay near the surface shrinks.


If not getting worse, it can be fixed with a crack repair kit.
https://www.permagard.co.uk/crack-stitching-kit

If it is getting worse, remedial work could be a major expense
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Default Advice needed - diagonal crack in internal wall, matching on bothsides of the wall

On 14/08/2020 22:44, H Poules wrote:
Hello. I have a back-to-back red brick mid terrace house in the UK.
There is a
large crack in an internal wall on the 2nd floor. The wall between the
bathroom and the bedroom. The crack runs diagonally up in a step pattern
from
the bottom corner where the wall joins the external wall. The crack is
visible
on both sides of the wall. It is no more than 5mm wide at its widest
parts. I
cants see signs of cracks on the walls below. Can this be due to the
support
of the 2nd floor weakening? Or is the wall bowing. Please can anyone
help me
work out what is happening and what might need doing to fix it please

so the wall is rotating below the crack?


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Default Advice needed - diagonal crack in internal wall, matching on both sides of the wall

On 15/08/2020 07:55, Tim+ wrote:
H Poules m wrote:
Hello. I have a back-to-back red brick mid terrace house in the UK. There is a
large crack in an internal wall on the 2nd floor. The wall between the
bathroom and the bedroom. The crack runs diagonally up in a step pattern from
the bottom corner where the wall joins the external wall. The crack is visible
on both sides of the wall. It is no more than 5mm wide at its widest parts. I
cants see signs of cracks on the walls below. Can this be due to the support
of the 2nd floor weakening? Or is the wall bowing. Please can anyone help me
work out what is happening and what might need doing to fix it please


A picture is worth a thousand words...

Tim

for the hard of understanding like you timmy...do you like colouring
books?...
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Default Advice needed - diagonal crack in internal wall, matching on bothsides of the wall

On 14/08/2020 22:44, H Poules wrote:
Hello. I have a back-to-back red brick mid terrace house in the UK.
There is a large crack in an internal wall on the 2nd floor. The wall
between the bathroom and the bedroom. The crack runs diagonally up in
a step pattern from the bottom corner where the wall joins the
external wall. The crack is visible on both sides of the wall. It is


Two obvious questions a

Is it in an old coal mining area? Or on a heavy clay soil?

Is there a wall on the ground floor underneath where the upstairs wall
that has cracked is or was there one in the past?

I recall someone in my youth who decided to DIY knock out the central
ground floor wall between front room and dining room when open plan was
very fashionable (but without putting in an RSJ in to take the load). It
did not go well but was entertaining for onlookers!

An RSJ that isn't quite up to the job might explain it.

no more than 5mm wide at its widest parts. I cants see signs of
cracks on the walls below. Can this be due to the support of the 2nd
floor weakening? Or is the wall bowing. Please can anyone help me
work out what is happening and what might need doing to fix it
please


You definitely need a surveyor to look at it in person and probably to
put some tell tales on it to see if it is still moving and how fast.

Advice on Usenet may be worth less than you have paid for it.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
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Default Advice needed - diagonal crack in internal wall, matching on bothsides of the wall

On 14/08/2020 22:44, H Poules wrote:
Hello. I have a back-to-back red brick mid terrace house in the UK.
There is a
large crack in an internal wall on the 2nd floor. The wall between the
bathroom and the bedroom. The crack runs diagonally up in a step pattern
from
the bottom corner where the wall joins the external wall. The crack is
visible
on both sides of the wall. It is no more than 5mm wide at its widest
parts. I
cants see signs of cracks on the walls below. Can this be due to the
support
of the 2nd floor weakening? Or is the wall bowing. Please can anyone
help me
work out what is happening and what might need doing to fix it please

You need professional advice from a Building Surveyor.
Contact your Buildings Insurance Company.

--
Ask how to email me.
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Default Advice needed - diagonal crack in internal wall, matching on both sides of the wall

On 15/08/2020 09:32, Martin Brown wrote:
On 14/08/2020 22:44, H Poules wrote:
Hello. I have a back-to-back red brick mid terrace house in the UK.
There is a large crack in an internal wall on the 2nd floor. The wall
between the bathroom and the bedroom. The crack runs diagonally up in
a step pattern from the bottom corner where the wall joins the
external wall. The crack is visible on both sides of the wall. It is


Two obvious questions a

Is it in an old coal mining area? Or on a heavy clay soil?

Is there a wall on the ground floor underneath where the upstairs wall
that has cracked is or was there one in the past?

I recall someone in my youth who decided to DIY knock out the central
ground floor wall between front room and dining room when open plan was
very fashionable (but without putting in an RSJ in to take the load). It
did not go well but was entertaining for onlookers!

An RSJ that isn't quite up to the job might explain it.

An RSJ that IS up to the job sometimes doesn't help if the point
loading onto the foundations makes the latter fail, whereas previously
the weight was evenly supported along the whole foundation.

Any BCO doing the job properly would insist on an excavation to
check the foundations and widen/deepen them if necessary.

Andrew
no more than 5mm wide at its widest parts. I cants see signs of
cracks on the walls below. Can this be due to the support of the 2nd
floor weakening? Or is the wall bowing. Please can anyone help me work
out what is happening and what might need doing to fix it
please


You definitely need a surveyor to look at it in person and probably to
put some tell tales on it to see if it is still moving and how fast.

Advice on Usenet may be worth less than you have paid for it.


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Default Advice needed - diagonal crack in internal wall, matching on bothsides of the wall

On 15/08/2020 17:45, Kellerman wrote:
On 14/08/2020 22:44, H Poules wrote:
Hello. I have a back-to-back red brick mid terrace house in the UK.
There is a
large crack in an internal wall on the 2nd floor. The wall between the
bathroom and the bedroom. The crack runs diagonally up in a step
pattern from
the bottom corner where the wall joins the external wall. The crack is
visible
on both sides of the wall. It is no more than 5mm wide at its widest
parts. I
cants see signs of cracks on the walls below. Can this be due to the
support
of the 2nd floor weakening? Or is the wall bowing. Please can anyone
help me
work out what is happening and what might need doing to fix it please

You need professional advice from a Building Surveyor.
Contact your Buildings Insurance Company.


'Terraced back-to-back'

This this mean potentially 5 party wall agreements to fix this ?.
(2 on one side, three on the back).


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Default Advice needed - diagonal crack in internal wall, matching on both sides of the wall

On 15/08/2020 18:46, Andrew wrote:
On 15/08/2020 17:45, Kellerman wrote:
On 14/08/2020 22:44, H Poules wrote:
Hello. I have a back-to-back red brick mid terrace house in the UK.
There is a
large crack in an internal wall on the 2nd floor. The wall between the
bathroom and the bedroom. The crack runs diagonally up in a step
pattern from
the bottom corner where the wall joins the external wall. The crack
is visible
on both sides of the wall. It is no more than 5mm wide at its widest
parts. I
cants see signs of cracks on the walls below. Can this be due to the
support
of the 2nd floor weakening? Or is the wall bowing. Please can anyone
help me
work out what is happening and what might need doing to fix it please

You need professional advice from a Building Surveyor.
Contact your Buildings Insurance Company.


'Terraced back-to-back'

This this mean potentially 5 party wall agreements to fix this ?.
(2 on one side, three on the back).


I think only the two immediately adjacent party walls are relevant.

The way I remember terraced back to back there was always a high walled
paved back yard containing the outside loo, coal bunker and sometimes a
token garden about one flagstone in size. Rows separated by a narrow
alleyways where the bins lived at the backs and a road at the front.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
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Default Advice needed - diagonal crack in internal wall, matching on both sides of the wall

Martin Brown wrote:

On 15/08/2020 18:46, Andrew wrote:
On 15/08/2020 17:45, Kellerman wrote:
On 14/08/2020 22:44, H Poules wrote:
Hello. I have a back-to-back red brick mid terrace house in the UK.
There is a
large crack in an internal wall on the 2nd floor. The wall between the
bathroom and the bedroom. The crack runs diagonally up in a step
pattern from
the bottom corner where the wall joins the external wall. The crack
is visible
on both sides of the wall. It is no more than 5mm wide at its widest
parts. I
cants see signs of cracks on the walls below. Can this be due to the
support
of the 2nd floor weakening? Or is the wall bowing. Please can anyone
help me
work out what is happening and what might need doing to fix it please

You need professional advice from a Building Surveyor.
Contact your Buildings Insurance Company.


'Terraced back-to-back'

This this mean potentially 5 party wall agreements to fix this ?.
(2 on one side, three on the back).


I think only the two immediately adjacent party walls are relevant.

The way I remember terraced back to back there was always a high walled
paved back yard containing the outside loo, coal bunker and sometimes a
token garden about one flagstone in size. Rows separated by a narrow
alleyways where the bins lived at the backs and a road at the front.


Proper back to back terraces, at least in Leeds, had rear party walls
and, presumably, a toilet block for each terrace. The back yard and
ginnel was a posh arrangement for ordinary terraced housing.

--

Roger Hayter
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Default Advice needed - diagonal crack in internal wall, matching on bothsides of the wall

On 15/08/2020 18:45, Andrew wrote:
On 15/08/2020 09:32, Martin Brown wrote:
On 14/08/2020 22:44, H Poules wrote:
Hello. I have a back-to-back red brick mid terrace house in the UK.
There is a large crack in an internal wall on the 2nd floor. The wall
between the bathroom and the bedroom. The crack runs diagonally up in
a step pattern from the bottom corner where the wall joins the
external wall. The crack is visible on both sides of the wall. It is


Two obvious questions a

Is it in an old coal mining area? Or on a heavy clay soil?

Is there a wall on the ground floor underneath where the upstairs wall
that has cracked is or was there one in the past?

I recall someone in my youth who decided to DIY knock out the central
ground floor wall between front room and dining room when open plan
was very fashionable (but without putting in an RSJ in to take the
load). It did not go well but was entertaining for onlookers!

An RSJ that isn't quite up to the job might explain it.

An RSJ that IS up to the job sometimes doesn't help if the point
loading onto the foundations makes the latter fail, whereas previously
the weight was evenly supported along the whole foundation.

Any BCO doing the job properly would insist on an excavation to
check the foundations and widen/deepen them if necessary.

Andrew
no more than 5mm wide at its widest parts. I cants see signs of
cracks on the walls below. Can this be due to the support of the 2nd
floor weakening? Or is the wall bowing. Please can anyone help me
work out what is happening and what might need doing to fix it
please


You definitely need a surveyor to look at it in person and probably to
put some tell tales on it to see if it is still moving and how fast.

Advice on Usenet may be worth less than you have paid for it.


Basically I'd just support everything Martin and Andrew have already
said. This is, presumably, Victorian and as mentioned elsewhere they did
not have foundations to modern standards. Coal mining can take down even
modern houses.

A key point is whether it is still moving. I used to live in a Georgian
update of earlier "cottages" that experienced "front to back"
subsidence, so that (for example) doorways in stud walls that went
"sideways" across the house had shifted over time into parallelograms
with 30 mm of "drop" across their width. But that was a *long* time ago
and it wasn't moving when I lived there. A neighbour has just done a
major refurbishment of an 18th century cottage with rubble-filled stone
walls. He was paranoid about a similar crack in an external side wall
even though I was able to tell him it had not moved significantly in
decades. He put in a "microscope slide" type tell-tale that did nothing
over several months, but he still did a substantial rebuild including
adding an anti-bow tensioner (although there was no obvious sign of bowing).

If you don't want to rush into paying a surveyor there must be internet
advice on DIY "tell-tales". Houses very seldom fall down, and usually
give quite a lot of warning (unless on cliff edges or over old,
near-surface mines).
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Default Advice needed - diagonal crack in internal wall, matching on bothsides of the wall

On 16/08/2020 09:53, Roger Hayter wrote:
Martin Brown wrote:

On 15/08/2020 18:46, Andrew wrote:
On 15/08/2020 17:45, Kellerman wrote:
On 14/08/2020 22:44, H Poules wrote:
Hello. I have a back-to-back red brick mid terrace house in the UK.
There is a
large crack in an internal wall on the 2nd floor. The wall between the
bathroom and the bedroom. The crack runs diagonally up in a step
pattern from
the bottom corner where the wall joins the external wall. The crack
is visible
on both sides of the wall. It is no more than 5mm wide at its widest
parts. I
cants see signs of cracks on the walls below. Can this be due to the
support
of the 2nd floor weakening? Or is the wall bowing. Please can anyone
help me
work out what is happening and what might need doing to fix it please

You need professional advice from a Building Surveyor.
Contact your Buildings Insurance Company.


'Terraced back-to-back'

This this mean potentially 5 party wall agreements to fix this ?.
(2 on one side, three on the back).


I think only the two immediately adjacent party walls are relevant.

The way I remember terraced back to back there was always a high walled
paved back yard containing the outside loo, coal bunker and sometimes a
token garden about one flagstone in size. Rows separated by a narrow
alleyways where the bins lived at the backs and a road at the front.


Proper back to back terraces, at least in Leeds, had rear party walls
and, presumably, a toilet block for each terrace. The back yard and
ginnel was a posh arrangement for ordinary terraced housing.


Those are ones that I meant. They only have windows at the front
because the rear wall is also the rear wall of the row of
terraced houses on the other side, all sharing the same run of roofs.
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Default Advice needed - diagonal crack in internal wall, matching on bothsides of the wall

On 16/08/2020 09:53, Roger Hayter wrote:
Martin Brown wrote:

On 15/08/2020 18:46, Andrew wrote:
On 15/08/2020 17:45, Kellerman wrote:
On 14/08/2020 22:44, H Poules wrote:
Hello. I have a back-to-back red brick mid terrace house in the UK.
There is a
large crack in an internal wall on the 2nd floor. The wall between the
bathroom and the bedroom. The crack runs diagonally up in a step
pattern from
the bottom corner where the wall joins the external wall. The crack
is visible
on both sides of the wall. It is no more than 5mm wide at its widest
parts. I
cants see signs of cracks on the walls below. Can this be due to the
support
of the 2nd floor weakening? Or is the wall bowing. Please can anyone
help me
work out what is happening and what might need doing to fix it please

You need professional advice from a Building Surveyor.
Contact your Buildings Insurance Company.


'Terraced back-to-back'

This this mean potentially 5 party wall agreements to fix this ?.
(2 on one side, three on the back).


I think only the two immediately adjacent party walls are relevant.

The way I remember terraced back to back there was always a high walled
paved back yard containing the outside loo, coal bunker and sometimes a
token garden about one flagstone in size. Rows separated by a narrow
alleyways where the bins lived at the backs and a road at the front.


Proper back to back terraces, at least in Leeds, had rear party walls
and, presumably, a toilet block for each terrace. The back yard and
ginnel was a posh arrangement for ordinary terraced housing.


I don't think the OP meant a real back-to-back of that kind, most of
which have been demolished. I suspect he means 1st not 2nd floor too.

--
Max Demian


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Default Advice needed - diagonal crack in internal wall, matching on bothsides of the wall

On 16/08/2020 14:47, Max Demian wrote:
On 16/08/2020 09:53, Roger Hayter wrote:
Martin Brown wrote:

On 15/08/2020 18:46, Andrew wrote:
On 15/08/2020 17:45, Kellerman wrote:
On 14/08/2020 22:44, H Poules wrote:
Hello. I have a back-to-back red brick mid terrace house in the UK.
There is a
large crack in an internal wall on the 2nd floor. The wall between
the
bathroom and the bedroom. The crack runs diagonally up in a step
pattern from
the bottom corner where the wall joins the external wall. The crack
is visible
on both sides of the wall. It is no more than 5mm wide at its widest
parts. I
cants see signs of cracks on the walls below. Can this be due to the
support
of the 2nd floor weakening? Or is the wall bowing. Please can anyone
help me
work out what is happening and what might need doing to fix it please

You need professional advice from a Building Surveyor.
Contact your Buildings Insurance Company.


'Terraced back-to-back'

This this mean potentially 5 party wall agreements to fix this ?.
(2 on one side, three on the back).

I think only the two immediately adjacent party walls are relevant.

The way I remember terraced back to back there was always a high walled
paved back yard containing the outside loo, coal bunker and sometimes a
token garden about one flagstone in size. Rows separated by a narrow
alleyways where the bins lived at the backs and a road at the front.


Proper back to back terraces, at least in Leeds, had rear party walls
and, presumably, a toilet block for each terrace.Â* The back yard and
ginnel was a posh arrangement for ordinary terraced housing.


I don't think the OP meant a real back-to-back of that kind, most of
which have been demolished. I suspect he means 1st not 2nd floor too.


I've seen at least two appearing on Homes under the hammer, both
in Leeds (convenient for students).
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Default Advice needed - diagonal crack in internal wall, matching on bothsides of the wall

The OP did not mention problems with the wall below which would suggest that maybe the external wall is bulging out on the upper storey. The OP needs to get the problem assessed ASAP by a surveyor.

Richard
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Default Advice needed - diagonal crack in internal wall, matching on bothsides of the wall

On 15/08/2020 17:45, Kellerman wrote:
You need professional advice from a Building Surveyor.
Contact your Buildings Insurance Company.


+1

(I wouldn't normally add +1, but this is exactly the right thing to do
in a situation where doing the wrong thing could be _very_ expensive)

Andy
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Default Advice needed - diagonal crack in internal wall, matching on bothsides of the wall

On 16/08/2020 21:23, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 15/08/2020 17:45, Kellerman wrote:
You need professional advice from a Building Surveyor.
Contact your Buildings Insurance Company.


+1

(I wouldn't normally add +1, but this is exactly the right thing to do
in a situation where doing the wrong thing could be _very_ expensive)

Andy


More than that if it has just recently appeared then any delay could
allow it to become considerably worse and even dangerous.

Where I used to live entire semis and the odd detached house or parked
car would occasionally disappear into the ground due to mining
subsidence or sink holes. Old buildings were built on timber frames and
more modern build on concrete rafts so that they might tilt a bit under
provocation from mining subsidence but the walls didn't usually crack.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
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