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Default FTTP installation

Following a thread on uk.telecom this might be of use to people here
contemplating FTTP as well.

https://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?...20installation


--
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Mark Twain


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On Wednesday, 5 August 2020 13:53:11 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Following a thread on uk.telecom this might be of use to people here
contemplating FTTP as well.
https://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?...20installation


Firefox refuses, and Chrome dislikes, your page because of security

NET::ERR_CERT_AUTHORITY_INVALID
Subject: mx.xen19.node00001.gigatux.com
Issuer: mx.xen19.node00001.gigatux.com
Expires on: 11 Nov 2021
Current date: 5 Aug 2020

Owain
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On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 05:59:19 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Following a thread on uk.telecom this might be of use to people

here
contemplating FTTP as well.
https://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?...20installation

Firefox refuses, and Chrome dislikes, your page because of security

NET::ERR_CERT_AUTHORITY_INVALID
Subject: mx.xen19.node00001.gigatux.com
Issuer: mx.xen19.node00001.gigatux.com
Expires on: 11 Nov 2021
Current date: 5 Aug 2020


Slightly more useful from Firefox:

Secure Connection Failed

An error occurred during a connection to vps.templar.co.uk. Peer
using unsupported version of security protocol.

Error code: SSL_ERROR_UNSUPPORTED_VERSION

The page you are trying to view cannot be shown because the
authenticity of the received data could not be verified.
Please contact the web site owners to inform them of this
problem.

Learn more

This web site might not support the TLS 1.2 protocol, which is the
minimum version supported by Firefox. Enabling TLS 1.0 and TLS 1.1
might allow this connection to succeed.

TLS 1.0 and TLS 1.1 will be permanently disabled in a future release.

--
Cheers
Dave.



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On 05/08/2020 13:53, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Following a thread on uk.telecom this might be of use to people here
contemplating FTTP* as well.

https://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?...20installation


What is in the external box?

Looks like they have "cost reduced" the install and done away with the
battery backup for the PON terminal. (they used to include the
termination and the battery backup both installed in a larger wall mount
box:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...nitWithPSU.png

(the box on the right has 4 AAs in it).

Interesting they actually made use of the copper pair in the drop
wire... On mine they just wound it up near the termination and saved it
for some future time if required (there are already 2 x pots drop wires
into the house). They did moan that the very thin teflon insulated wire
was very difficult to strip and use!

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/
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On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 14:14:36 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

Looks like they have "cost reduced" the install and done away with the
battery backup for the PON terminal. (they used to include the
termination and the battery backup both installed in a larger wall mount
box:


Think that went out the window a year or more ago. Not sure why.
Maybe that as "everyone has a mobile" these days the expectation is
for that to work under local power fail conditions. That might be a
reasonable assumption in built areas where there is reliable blanket
coverage and a mobile can see many cell sites and the chances being
not all of them will be affected by the power outage. Doesn't work
quite so well in rural areas with patchy coverage and a single cell
serving many square miles.

Or peoples expectations have changed, power goes, normal life comes
to a crashing halt.

--
Cheers
Dave.





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On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 13:53:09 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Following a thread on uk.telecom this might be of use to people here
contemplating FTTP as well.

https://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?...20installation


This produces a warning message here - attackers may be trying to
steal your details.
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On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 14:14:36 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 05/08/2020 13:53, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Following a thread on uk.telecom this might be of use to people here
contemplating FTTP* as well.

https://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?...20installation


What is in the external box?

Looks like they have "cost reduced" the install and done away with the
battery backup for the PON terminal. (they used to include the
termination and the battery backup both installed in a larger wall mount
box:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...nitWithPSU.png

(the box on the right has 4 AAs in it).

Interesting they actually made use of the copper pair in the drop
wire... On mine they just wound it up near the termination and saved it
for some future time if required (there are already 2 x pots drop wires
into the house). They did moan that the very thin teflon insulated wire
was very difficult to strip and use!


I have seen this on the other thread. If you are over 65, can you
just register as 'vulnerable' and tell them you need a reliable system
that works 24/7?
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The Natural Philosopher wrote:

https://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?...20installation


Use http://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?album=FTTP%20installation
instead as the server doesn't speak new encryption

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John Rumm wrote:
On 05/08/2020 13:53, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Following a thread on uk.telecom this might be of use to people here
contemplating FTTP* as well.

https://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?...20installation


That's Openreach FTTP btw, other networks vary.

What is in the external box?


On ours it was just a joint between the dropwire and the pigtail that goes
through the wall. I assume the pigtail comes pre-terminated in an SC/APC
connector so they don't have to put one on the dropwire.

Looks like they have "cost reduced" the install and done away with the
battery backup for the PON terminal. (they used to include the
termination and the battery backup both installed in a larger wall mount
box:


Since 2018. I think they decided the battery backup wasn't much use - it
only had 4x 2000mAh NiMH cells in it (about 10Wh, or about the average
battery in a mobile), so it wasn't a backup for very long. And you'll
probably find the cells are dead when you come to need it in any case (ours
were when we moved in, an OR engineer changed them).

The handwave being assuming you have a mobile for emergencies - apparently
they will fit a BBU 'on an exceptional basis' for those who depend on their
landline for voice. If that were me I'd look at a UPS or a more substantial
solution than what's effectively a £5 powerbank.

Interesting they actually made use of the copper pair in the drop
wire... On mine they just wound it up near the termination and saved it
for some future time if required (there are already 2 x pots drop wires
into the house). They did moan that the very thin teflon insulated wire
was very difficult to strip and use!


Ours had a pre-existing copper pair that was used for voice, with the fibre
being separate.

Theo
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On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 15:15:04 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

https://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?...20installation


Use http://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?album=FTTP%20installation
instead as the server doesn't speak new encryption


Would it not simply be possible to install an uninterruptible power
supply to photo 6?


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The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Following a thread on uk.telecom this might be of use to people here
contemplating FTTP* as well.

https://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?...20installation


All the openreach installed bits (apart from their pole) look a bit
scrappily done, considering how long they ought to be expecting it to
stay in place ...
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Scott wrote:

On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 15:15:04 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

https://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?...20installation


Use http://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?album=FTTP%20installation
instead as the server doesn't speak new encryption


Would it not simply be possible to install an uninterruptible power
supply to photo 6?


Even nicer would be if the ONT (or whatever they call it) could accept
power over ethernet, instead of needing a wallwart, I know most people
won't have a PoE switch yet, but even a remote power injector would look
neater
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On 05/08/2020 14:36, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 14:14:36 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 05/08/2020 13:53, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Following a thread on uk.telecom this might be of use to people here
contemplating FTTP* as well.

https://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?...20installation


What is in the external box?

Looks like they have "cost reduced" the install and done away with the
battery backup for the PON terminal. (they used to include the
termination and the battery backup both installed in a larger wall mount
box:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...nitWithPSU.png

(the box on the right has 4 AAs in it).

Interesting they actually made use of the copper pair in the drop
wire... On mine they just wound it up near the termination and saved it
for some future time if required (there are already 2 x pots drop wires
into the house). They did moan that the very thin teflon insulated wire
was very difficult to strip and use!


I have seen this on the other thread. If you are over 65, can you
just register as 'vulnerable' and tell them you need a reliable system
that works 24/7?


For most existing users this will be for broadband provision only, so
any existing phone lines will carry on working as they currently do.

However they are moving toward disbanding the copper network, and FTTP
will become the default install even if all you want is voice. That will
then be provided by VoIP on a "slow" (500Kbps) FTTP service. It may be
that for voice only users they will provide the battery backup.

(they probably figure for data users, its a moot point since few of them
will have a UPS to hold up all their other IT kit to actually benefit
from the broadband staying up during a power cut)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/
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On 05/08/2020 14:34, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 13:53:09 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Following a thread on uk.telecom this might be of use to people here
contemplating FTTP as well.

https://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?...20installation


This produces a warning message here - attackers may be trying to
steal your details.


Its using an old standard for the transport layer security and some
browsers will whinge. Change it to http:// and it will be ok.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/
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On 05/08/2020 15:22, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 15:15:04 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

https://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?...20installation


Use http://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?album=FTTP%20installation
instead as the server doesn't speak new encryption


Would it not simply be possible to install an uninterruptible power
supply to photo 6?


Yup you can...

In fact I took mine off my rack's UPS since it has its own backup
batteries, and they will run longer than the rest of the rack.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/


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On Wednesday, 5 August 2020 14:31:03 UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 14:14:36 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

Looks like they have "cost reduced" the install and done away with the
battery backup for the PON terminal. (they used to include the
termination and the battery backup both installed in a larger wall mount
box:


Think that went out the window a year or more ago. Not sure why.
Maybe that as "everyone has a mobile" these days the expectation is
for that to work under local power fail conditions. That might be a
reasonable assumption in built areas where there is reliable blanket
coverage and a mobile can see many cell sites and the chances being
not all of them will be affected by the power outage. Doesn't work
quite so well in rural areas with patchy coverage and a single cell
serving many square miles.

Or peoples expectations have changed, power goes, normal life comes
to a crashing halt.

The battery backup was not supplied when ours was installed at the start of December 2019 - looks as if it was done away with some months prior.

Unlike many, our phone line remains on copper. The ONT's phone socket is dead. (When they installed FTTP, I plugged the phone into the ONT and nothing happened. It was all checked out at the time and someone had intentionally not switched our phone over to fibre.)

This works to our advantage in that we might lose internet but the phone should be as reliable as any POTS phone.

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On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 15:34:33 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

Even nicer would be if the ONT (or whatever they call it) could accept
power over ethernet, instead of needing a wallwart,


+1

What does the ONT live on? You can get fixed voltage, 15 W output,
PoE spliters at 5 or 12 V for about a tenner now. I've got a 5 V
output one for powering a Pi III via PoE, this was going to have and
SDR dongle attached and shoved some where out of the way. Trouble is
the PoE splitter produces a lot of interference. Not yet chased that
down to actual RF radiation and/or a horrible amount of noise on the
supply.

I use a TP-Link PoE adpater for the blitzortung receiver. That
required an LC filter in the power lines to tame it. B-)

I know most people won't have a PoE switch yet, but even a remote power
injector would look neater


And could be placed far more conviently and maybe on the UPS that
keeps other kit up in the event of a power outage.

--
Cheers
Dave.



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On Wednesday, 5 August 2020 15:47:07 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 05/08/2020 14:36, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 14:14:36 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 05/08/2020 13:53, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Following a thread on uk.telecom this might be of use to people here
contemplating FTTP* as well.

https://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?...20installation

What is in the external box?

Looks like they have "cost reduced" the install and done away with the
battery backup for the PON terminal. (they used to include the
termination and the battery backup both installed in a larger wall mount
box:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...nitWithPSU.png

(the box on the right has 4 AAs in it).

Interesting they actually made use of the copper pair in the drop
wire... On mine they just wound it up near the termination and saved it
for some future time if required (there are already 2 x pots drop wires
into the house). They did moan that the very thin teflon insulated wire
was very difficult to strip and use!


I have seen this on the other thread. If you are over 65, can you
just register as 'vulnerable' and tell them you need a reliable system
that works 24/7?


For most existing users this will be for broadband provision only, so
any existing phone lines will carry on working as they currently do.

However they are moving toward disbanding the copper network, and FTTP
will become the default install even if all you want is voice. That will
then be provided by VoIP on a "slow" (500Kbps) FTTP service. It may be
that for voice only users they will provide the battery backup.

(they probably figure for data users, its a moot point since few of them
will have a UPS to hold up all their other IT kit to actually benefit
from the broadband staying up during a power cut)

Few will have a UPS, indeed. But many will have tablets, laptops, phones, etc., which have a UPS effectively built-in as they are battery devices.

The problem often becomes having sufficient power for both the ONT and the local router (plus anything else like LAN extenders) rather than the end device. Keeping the ONT up while letting the router drop is very likely daft.

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On 05/08/2020 13:59, wrote:
On Wednesday, 5 August 2020 13:53:11 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Following a thread on uk.telecom this might be of use to people here
contemplating FTTP as well.
https://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?...20installation

Firefox refuses, and Chrome dislikes, your page because of security

NET::ERR_CERT_AUTHORITY_INVALID
Subject: mx.xen19.node00001.gigatux.com
Issuer: mx.xen19.node00001.gigatux.com
Expires on: 11 Nov 2021
Current date: 5 Aug 2020

Owain

take the 's' out of https then

--
"Women actually are capable of being far more than the feminists will
let them."


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On 05/08/2020 15:24, Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Following a thread on uk.telecom this might be of use to people here
contemplating FTTP* as well.

https://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?...20installation


All the openreach installed bits (apart from their pole) look a bit
scrappily done, considering how long they ought to be expecting it to
stay in place ...


oh it is all sound enough. I need to redecorate next winter anyway...

--
It is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of
making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people
who pay no price for being wrong.

Thomas Sowell


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On 05/08/2020 15:34, Andy Burns wrote:
Scott wrote:

On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 15:15:04 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

https://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?...20installation

Use http://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?album=FTTP%20installation
instead as the server doesn't speak new encryption


Would it not simply be possible to install an uninterruptible power
supply to photo 6?


Even nicer would be if the ONT (or whatever they call it) could accept
power over ethernet, instead of needing a wallwart, I know most people
won't have a PoE switch yet, but even a remote power injector would look
neater


Yes. totally agree


--
It is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of
making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people
who pay no price for being wrong.

Thomas Sowell
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Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 15:34:33 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

Even nicer would be if the ONT (or whatever they call it) could accept
power over ethernet, instead of needing a wallwart,


+1

What does the ONT live on?


12V. None of the OR ones (Huawei, Nokia) seem to support PoE, sadly.

You can get fixed voltage, 15 W output, PoE spliters at 5 or 12 V for
about a tenner now. I've got a 5 V output one for powering a Pi III via
PoE, this was going to have and SDR dongle attached and shoved some where
out of the way. Trouble is the PoE splitter produces a lot of
interference. Not yet chased that down to actual RF radiation and/or a
horrible amount of noise on the supply.


That's not a bad idea. I'm sure you can get better splitters. A PoE UPS
might be useful in terms of keeping router, switches and IP phones alive.

I hope routers will get better at power management - for example, detect
that the power has gone out and fall back to a less power intensive mode of
operation to make the battery last longer, perhaps by dropping rates on wifi
or ethernet and throttling CPU.

Theo
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John Rumm wrote:

Scott wrote:

This produces a warning message here - attackers may be trying to
steal your details.


Its using an old standard for the transport layer security and some
browsers will whinge.


Note that chrome 84 and firefox 78 both disabled TLS1.0 and TLS1.1 last
month, so unless servers support newer encryption, you'll get that message.

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On 05/08/2020 18:04, Andy Burns wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

Scott wrote:

This produces a warning message here - attackers may be trying to
steal your details.


Its using an old standard for the transport layer security and some
browsers will whinge.


Note that chrome 84 and firefox 78 both disabled TLS1.0 and TLS1.1 last
month, so unless servers support newer encryption, you'll get that message.

that is an OLD server

I am not sure I can be bothered to upgrade it. I may simply move the
album to the newer one and leave that as mail only.

--
Theres a mighty big difference between good, sound reasons and reasons
that sound good.

Burton Hillis (William Vaughn, American columnist)
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On 05 Aug 2020 18:02:32 +0100 (BST), Theo
wrote:

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 15:34:33 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

Even nicer would be if the ONT (or whatever they call it) could accept
power over ethernet, instead of needing a wallwart,


+1

What does the ONT live on?


12V. None of the OR ones (Huawei, Nokia) seem to support PoE, sadly.

Have you not stripped all Huawei kit out yet :-)


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On 05/08/2020 17:11, polygonum_on_google wrote:
On Wednesday, 5 August 2020 15:47:07 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 05/08/2020 14:36, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 14:14:36 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 05/08/2020 13:53, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Following a thread on uk.telecom this might be of use to
people here contemplating FTTP as well.

https://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?...20installation



What is in the external box?

Looks like they have "cost reduced" the install and done away
with the battery backup for the PON terminal. (they used to
include the termination and the battery backup both installed
in a larger wall mount box:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...nitWithPSU.png

(the box on the right has 4 AAs in it).

Interesting they actually made use of the copper pair in the
drop wire... On mine they just wound it up near the termination
and saved it for some future time if required (there are
already 2 x pots drop wires into the house). They did moan that
the very thin teflon insulated wire was very difficult to strip
and use!

I have seen this on the other thread. If you are over 65, can
you just register as 'vulnerable' and tell them you need a
reliable system that works 24/7?


For most existing users this will be for broadband provision only,
so any existing phone lines will carry on working as they currently
do.

However they are moving toward disbanding the copper network, and
FTTP will become the default install even if all you want is voice.
That will then be provided by VoIP on a "slow" (500Kbps) FTTP
service. It may be that for voice only users they will provide the
battery backup.

(they probably figure for data users, its a moot point since few of
them will have a UPS to hold up all their other IT kit to actually
benefit from the broadband staying up during a power cut)

Few will have a UPS, indeed. But many will have tablets, laptops,
phones, etc., which have a UPS effectively built-in as they are
battery devices.


Does not help much when your router and wifi is not powered...

The problem often becomes having sufficient power for both the ONT
and the local router (plus anything else like LAN extenders) rather
than the end device. Keeping the ONT up while letting the router drop
is very likely daft.


Indeed, PON terminal is not a router, just a PPPoE modem - you need a
router etc in addition to it, and if you have the battery backup for the
PON box it does not power the router, so you are back to a separate UPS.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/
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In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
On 05/08/2020 17:11, polygonum_on_google wrote:
On Wednesday, 5 August 2020 15:47:07 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 05/08/2020 14:36, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 14:14:36 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 05/08/2020 13:53, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Following a thread on uk.telecom this might be of use to
people here contemplating FTTP as well.

https://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?...20installation



What is in the external box?

Looks like they have "cost reduced" the install and done away
with the battery backup for the PON terminal. (they used to
include the termination and the battery backup both installed
in a larger wall mount box:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...nitWithPSU.png

(the box on the right has 4 AAs in it).

Interesting they actually made use of the copper pair in the
drop wire... On mine they just wound it up near the termination
and saved it for some future time if required (there are
already 2 x pots drop wires into the house). They did moan that
the very thin teflon insulated wire was very difficult to strip
and use!

I have seen this on the other thread. If you are over 65, can
you just register as 'vulnerable' and tell them you need a
reliable system that works 24/7?

For most existing users this will be for broadband provision only,
so any existing phone lines will carry on working as they currently
do.

However they are moving toward disbanding the copper network, and
FTTP will become the default install even if all you want is voice.
That will then be provided by VoIP on a "slow" (500Kbps) FTTP
service. It may be that for voice only users they will provide the
battery backup.

(they probably figure for data users, its a moot point since few of
them will have a UPS to hold up all their other IT kit to actually
benefit from the broadband staying up during a power cut)

Few will have a UPS, indeed. But many will have tablets, laptops,
phones, etc., which have a UPS effectively built-in as they are
battery devices.


Does not help much when your router and wifi is not powered...


I have a small UPS which supplies my FTTC router and modem which gives me
wifi.

The problem often becomes having sufficient power for both the ONT
and the local router (plus anything else like LAN extenders) rather
than the end device. Keeping the ONT up while letting the router drop
is very likely daft.


Indeed, PON terminal is not a router, just a PPPoE modem - you need a
router etc in addition to it, and if you have the battery backup for the
PON box it does not power the router, so you are back to a separate UPS.


--
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Default FTTP installation

Here waterfox simply says insecure connection.

Brian

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"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 05/08/2020 13:59,
wrote:
On Wednesday, 5 August 2020 13:53:11 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Following a thread on uk.telecom this might be of use to people here
contemplating FTTP as well.
https://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?...20installation

Firefox refuses, and Chrome dislikes, your page because of security

NET::ERR_CERT_AUTHORITY_INVALID
Subject: mx.xen19.node00001.gigatux.com
Issuer: mx.xen19.node00001.gigatux.com
Expires on: 11 Nov 2021
Current date: 5 Aug 2020

Owain

take the 's' out of https then

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Default FTTP installation

Virgin have let me keep copper on the landline as I'm considered vulnerable
due to being blind and living on my own.
Brian

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"polygonum_on_google" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 5 August 2020 14:31:03 UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 14:14:36 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

Looks like they have "cost reduced" the install and done away with the
battery backup for the PON terminal. (they used to include the
termination and the battery backup both installed in a larger wall mount
box:


Think that went out the window a year or more ago. Not sure why.
Maybe that as "everyone has a mobile" these days the expectation is
for that to work under local power fail conditions. That might be a
reasonable assumption in built areas where there is reliable blanket
coverage and a mobile can see many cell sites and the chances being
not all of them will be affected by the power outage. Doesn't work
quite so well in rural areas with patchy coverage and a single cell
serving many square miles.

Or peoples expectations have changed, power goes, normal life comes
to a crashing halt.

The battery backup was not supplied when ours was installed at the start of
December 2019 - looks as if it was done away with some months prior.

Unlike many, our phone line remains on copper. The ONT's phone socket is
dead. (When they installed FTTP, I plugged the phone into the ONT and
nothing happened. It was all checked out at the time and someone had
intentionally not switched our phone over to fibre.)

This works to our advantage in that we might lose internet but the phone
should be as reliable as any POTS phone.


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Default FTTP installation

On 05/08/2020 20:36, charles wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
On 05/08/2020 17:11, polygonum_on_google wrote:
On Wednesday, 5 August 2020 15:47:07 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:


However they are moving toward disbanding the copper network, and
FTTP will become the default install even if all you want is voice.
That will then be provided by VoIP on a "slow" (500Kbps) FTTP
service. It may be that for voice only users they will provide the
battery backup.

(they probably figure for data users, its a moot point since few of
them will have a UPS to hold up all their other IT kit to actually
benefit from the broadband staying up during a power cut)

Few will have a UPS, indeed. But many will have tablets, laptops,
phones, etc., which have a UPS effectively built-in as they are
battery devices.


Does not help much when your router and wifi is not powered...


I have a small UPS which supplies my FTTC router and modem which gives me
wifi.


Well same here - but I suspect we are in a tiny minority. Also having a
USP you can power the PON terminal as well - so it does not need its own
battery. However for those without a UPS the PON terminal running on its
own is pointless, so ergo, it does not need its own battery.



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Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/


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Default UPS recommendations please (was: FTTP installation)

[N.B. Subject amended]

John Rumm wrote:

On 05/08/2020 20:36, charles wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
On 05/08/2020 17:11, polygonum_on_google wrote:


[...]

Few will have a UPS, indeed. But many will have tablets, laptops,
phones, etc., which have a UPS effectively built-in as they are
battery devices.


Does not help much when your router and wifi is not powered...


I have a small UPS which supplies my FTTC router and modem which gives
me wifi.


Well same here - but I suspect we are in a tiny minority. Also having a
USP you can power the PON terminal as well - so it does not need its own
battery. However for those without a UPS the PON terminal running on its
own is pointless, so ergo, it does not need its own battery.


May I please have recommendations for a domestic UPS to
provide backup power to a FTTC modem, a router/WiFi AP
and a small Synology NAS for two hours or more? In this
case quality and reliabilty are more important than cost.

I already have a basic line-powered landline phone so there's
no need to provide for that. Also, my mobile phone can
provide limited WiFi hotspot data service, so I'd like to be
able to charge phones and iPads too.

TIA

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Default UPS recommendations please

Sn!pe wrote:
[N.B. Subject amended]

John Rumm wrote:

On 05/08/2020 20:36, charles wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
On 05/08/2020 17:11, polygonum_on_google wrote:


[...]

Few will have a UPS, indeed. But many will have tablets, laptops,
phones, etc., which have a UPS effectively built-in as they are
battery devices.

Does not help much when your router and wifi is not powered...

I have a small UPS which supplies my FTTC router and modem which gives
me wifi.


Well same here - but I suspect we are in a tiny minority. Also having a
USP you can power the PON terminal as well - so it does not need its own
battery. However for those without a UPS the PON terminal running on its
own is pointless, so ergo, it does not need its own battery.


May I please have recommendations for a domestic UPS to
provide backup power to a FTTC modem, a router/WiFi AP
and a small Synology NAS for two hours or more? In this
case quality and reliabilty are more important than cost.

Why keep the NAS going? There's nothing with power to use it is
there?

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Chris Green wrote:

Sn!pe wrote:

May I please have recommendations for a domestic UPS to
provide backup power to a FTTC modem, a router/WiFi AP
and a small Synology NAS for two hours or more? In this
case quality and reliabilty are more important than cost.


I use a big old APC smartups, it was free (plus I have a couple of
spares) it eats a set of batteries every 5 years, and it adds a few quid
to the leccy bill due to losses, but I wouldn't want to be without it.
That probably doesn't amount to a recommendation that it's what everyone
else should have though ...

Why keep the NAS going? There's nothing with power to use it is
there?


laptops?

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Chris Green wrote:

Sn!pe wrote:

[...]
May I please have recommendations for a domestic UPS to
provide backup power to a FTTC modem, a router/WiFi AP
and a small Synology NAS for two hours or more? In this
case quality and reliabilty are more important than cost.


Why keep the NAS going? There's nothing with power to
use it is there?


That's true enough, but I'm old fashioned enough to fret
about an ungraceful shutdown if mains power goes off.
Perhaps I'm worrying needlessly, but running it on a UPS
would mean it could be shut down gracefully.

Thanks for the response, Chris.

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May I please have recommendations for a domestic UPS to
provide backup power to a FTTC modem, a router/WiFi AP
and a small Synology NAS for two hours or more? In this
case quality and reliabilty are more important than cost.

I already have a basic line-powered landline phone so there's
no need to provide for that. Also, my mobile phone can
provide limited WiFi hotspot data service, so I'd like to be
able to charge phones and iPads too.

TIA




My choice of UPS make would be APC.

You do need to size the UPS correctly so what you do is add up all the
total wattage of all the loads and then work out how many watt-hours
need by multiplying by the desired run time.

Then you add correction factors such as the UPS conversion efficiency
and power factor plus a margin to allow for eventual battery degradation
so you don't end up replacing the batteries sooner than expected if the
run time falls below your two hours. Budget for replacing the batteries
every 3 to 5 years.

You could consider also purchasing a PoE network switch as you can get
Poe To USB chargers for your ipads and iphones: see here for an example:

https://fsrinc.com/fsr-products-list...hrg-p2u-series


Most UPSes start beeping during a power cut. The whole point of a UPS is
to allow you to shut down your attached IT gear without having
catastrophic data loss. So a UPS typically gives you a grace time of say
5 to 15 minutes before it shuts down as if you discharge the batteries
too far, the battery lifetime is shortened.

If you are running your UPS for that length of time, The UPS's inverter
and batteries will be getting warmer than would be typical which will
certainly affect the lifetime and reliability of the UPS.

So you will need to check the Specs that the UPS you want really can run
for that long reliably.

Will the beeping of up to 2 hours drive you up the wall? :-)

Also many UPSes allow a direct conenction to either a USB equipped
computer or sometimes an ethernet connection. The UPS driver software on
the PC or server then has the ability to monitor the UPS and can
gracefully shut itself down within minutes of a power cut starting
before the UPS runs out of power. You can usually set a shutdown
threshold of when the batteries reach a X% of total battery capacity.

If this is not feasible at the location of teh UPS, you can use a
raspberry Pi with some UPS software on it and then you can SSH or Putty
or remote desktop into the Pi to check up on teh UPS state and reporting
logs.

Given that much of your hardware is on wall warts I wonder if a simple
car battery and a trickle car battery charger with some LM317Ts or even
some cigar lighter socket to Laptop PSUs set to the various voltages
required might be a more cost effective and electrically simpler and
more reliable option as then you do not have the conversion losses and
all the extra circuitry due to:

230 V AC mains to DC battery charging within the UPS
DC to AC inverter within the UPS
Then 220V AC to DC conversion via the various wall warts to the IT kit

vs

Car battery trickle charger from 220 V AC to 12V DC

Then a bank of LM317Ts set to the required DC voltages to the router,
ONT, Wifi AP thereby bypassing the wall warts entirely

This is one conversion efficiency loss only vs 3 sets of conversion
efficiency losses.

You can get Car Cigar socket USB based chargers which would then also
power your iPads and iPhones.

Another option to look at is a Honda Generator running on LPG gas
bottles or on Natural gas.

https://genconnexdirect.net/honda_pr...generators.htm

You can even wire two Honda generators in parallel via a kit and have an
automatic start device in case of a power loss. An ordinary UPS can then
cover the transition betwene grid power and locally generated power.

In my experience, a natural gas supply or a Propane tank seems more
reliable than a nation grid supply.....

HTH,

S.



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On 06/08/2020 09:15, No Name wrote:

May I please have recommendations for a domestic UPS to
provide backup power to a FTTC modem, a router/WiFi AP
and a small Synology NAS for two hours or more?* In this
case quality and reliabilty are more important than cost.

I already have a basic line-powered landline phone so there's
no need to provide for that.* Also, my mobile phone can
provide limited WiFi hotspot data service, so I'd like to be
able to charge phones and iPads too.

TIA



My choice of UPS make would be APC.

You do need to size the UPS correctly so what you do is add up all the
total wattage of all the loads and then work out how many watt-hours
need by multiplying by the desired run time.

Then you add correction factors such as the UPS conversion efficiency
and power factor plus a margin to allow for eventual battery degradation
so you don't end up replacing the batteries sooner than expected if the
run time falls below your two hours. Budget for replacing the batteries
every 3 to 5 years.

You could consider also purchasing a PoE network switch as you can get
Poe To USB chargers for your ipads and iphones: see here for an example:

https://fsrinc.com/fsr-products-list...hrg-p2u-series


Most UPSes start beeping during a power cut. The whole point of a UPS is
to allow you to shut down your attached IT gear without having
catastrophic data loss. So a UPS typically gives you a grace time of say
5 to 15 minutes before it shuts down as if you discharge the batteries
too far, the battery lifetime is shortened.

If you are running your UPS for that length of time, The UPS's inverter
and batteries will be getting warmer than would be typical which will
certainly affect the lifetime and reliability of the UPS.

So you will need to check the Specs that the UPS you want really can run
for that long reliably.

Will the beeping of up to 2 hours drive you up the wall? :-)

Also many UPSes allow a direct conenction to either a USB equipped
computer or sometimes an ethernet connection. The UPS driver software on
the PC or server then has the ability to monitor the UPS and can
gracefully shut itself down within minutes of a power cut starting
before the UPS runs out of power. You can usually set a shutdown
threshold of when the batteries reach a X% of total battery capacity.

If this is not feasible at the location of teh UPS, you can use a
raspberry Pi with some UPS software on it and then you can SSH or Putty
or remote desktop into the Pi to check up on teh UPS state and reporting
logs.

Given that much of your hardware is on wall warts I wonder if a simple
car battery and a trickle car battery charger with some LM317Ts or even
some cigar lighter socket to Laptop PSUs set to the various voltages
required might be a more cost effective and electrically simpler and
more reliable option as then you do not have the conversion losses and
all the extra circuitry due to:

230 V AC mains to DC battery charging within the UPS
DC to AC inverter within the UPS
Then 220V AC to DC conversion via the various wall warts to the IT kit

vs

Car battery trickle charger from 220 V AC to 12V DC

Then a bank of LM317Ts set to the required DC voltages to the router,
ONT, Wifi AP thereby bypassing the wall warts entirely

This is one conversion efficiency loss only vs 3 sets of conversion
efficiency losses.

You can get Car Cigar socket USB based chargers which would then also
power your iPads and iPhones.

Another option to look at is a Honda Generator running on LPG gas
bottles or on Natural gas.

https://genconnexdirect.net/honda_pr...generators.htm

You can even wire two Honda generators in parallel via a kit and have an
automatic start device in case of a power loss. An ordinary UPS can then
cover the transition betwene grid power and locally generated power.

In my experience, a natural gas supply or a Propane tank seems more
reliable than a nation grid supply.....

HTH,

S.



Comiing back to the idea of using car batteries, if a Caravan leisure
battery is used, they can tolerate deeper discharges as the plates are
thicker and buckle less ths avoiding the cell(s) shorting out. They are
however heavier and bigger and more costly!

It *might* be possible to swap the UPS batteries for a leisure battery
if battery lifetime/reliability/extended run time is important.
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No Name wrote:

Most UPSes start beeping during a power cut.
Will the beeping of up to 2 hours drive you up the wall?

Only if you don't press the "silence" button ...

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On 06/08/2020 09:29, Andy Burns wrote:
No Name wrote:

Most UPSes start beeping during a power cut. Will the beeping of up to
2 hours drive you up the wall?

Only if you don't press the "silence" button ...


I've owned loads of UPSes over the years and I've never seen a silence
button!.

S.
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On Thu, 06 Aug 2020 09:53:46 +0100, No Name wrote:

On 06/08/2020 09:29, Andy Burns wrote:
No Name wrote:

Most UPSes start beeping during a power cut. Will the beeping of up to
2 hours drive you up the wall?

Only if you don't press the "silence" button ...


I've owned loads of UPSes over the years and I've never seen a silence
button!.


I have three APC units here and all they have is on/off.



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Bob Eager wrote:

No Name wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:
No Name wrote:

Most UPSes start beeping during a power cut. Will the beeping of up to
2 hours drive you up the wall?

Only if you don't press the "silence" button ...


I've owned loads of UPSes over the years and I've never seen a silence
button!.


I have three APC units here and all they have is on/off.


And what does pressing the "on" button do during a power-cut?

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