On Thu, 6 Aug 2020 00:35:17 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

Well same here - but I suspect we are in a tiny minority. Also having a
USP you can power the PON terminal as well - so it does not need its own
battery. However for those without a UPS the PON terminal running on its
own is pointless, so ergo, it does not need its own battery.

That depends... you (generic) are only using the PON (ONT) for an
internet connection not for a telecom company provided POTS, that is
still on copper, presumably line powered and will work under local
power fail conditions.

If the POTS service moved to the ONT POTS port, what happens then?
Without some form of power backup you lose POTS service. That's not a
serious problem for the geeks with UPS's but as you say geeks are in
the minority. A great majority of the rest will probably have a
mobile and be in blanket coverage areas so the mobile might still
work. But that still leaves the significant number of people who
don't have a mobile without without telephone service just when they
might really need it.

A few hours from an ONT BBU would probably cover the vast majority of
powercuts. Provided the batteries are in good condition, which might
be a challenge for the non-geeks, techno phobes and, sadly, a lot of
the population.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Thu, 6 Aug 2020 00:35:17 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:
[snip]

Well same here - but I suspect we are in a tiny minority. Also having a
USP you can power the PON terminal as well - so it does not need its own
battery. However for those without a UPS the PON terminal running on its
own is pointless, so ergo, it does not need its own battery.

As an aside, does a UPS have adverse implications for energy
efficiency? I assume power consumption will be minimal, but will it
be enough to cancel out the other power-saving measures built into
modern electronics?

Scott wrote:

As an aside, does a UPS have adverse implications for energy
efficiency?

There is efficiency loss between input and output (might be lower in the
non line-interactive models) they tend to act as a small radiator ...

On 06/08/2020 10:18, Andy Burns wrote:
Bob Eager wrote:

No Name wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:
No Name wrote:

Most UPSes start beeping during a power cut. Will the beeping of up to
2 hours drive you up the wall?

Only if you don't press the "silence" button ...

I've owned loads of UPSes over the years and I've never seen a silence
button!.

I have three APC units here and all they have is on/off.

And what does pressing the "on" button do during a power-cut?



the UPS will not start up on battery only if there is no mains power
present....

No Name wrote:
Given that much of your hardware is on wall warts I wonder if a simple
car battery and a trickle car battery charger with some LM317Ts or even
some cigar lighter socket to Laptop PSUs set to the various voltages
required might be a more cost effective and electrically simpler and
more reliable option as then you do not have the conversion losses and
all the extra circuitry due to:

I wouldn't use LM317s as they're linear regulators, so waste a lot of energy
as heat. There are cheap DC-DC converter modules on ebay for a few quid
that can make whatever voltage you want, for much better efficiency.

However, if a lot of the gear takes 12V input I suspect it can tolerate the
voltage swings of a car battery (since it'll have an internal SMPSU) so you
might be safe to just wire all your 12V loads across the battery, perhaps
with a low voltage disconnect module (ebay again) to prevent
overdischarge. You'd need a charger that could handle all those
steady-state loads as well as trickling the battery.

That might be more efficient than two additional voltage conversions in the
chain.

Theo

On Thu, 6 Aug 2020 09:15:42 +0100, No Name wrote:

My choice of UPS make would be APC.

I'd look very hard at other makes before getting another APC. They
have (had?) a habit of cooking the batteries. Meaning that they'd be
knackered enough after 4 years to make the runtime, even at low
loads, rather too short, read tens of minutes rather than half a
dozen hours. I got ****ed off at this "feature" and attacked mine 5
years ago to reduce the charge voltage and fit a fan. The new
batteries fitted at that time are still good. Yes, it takes longer to
reach the 15% capacity switch on point after switching off due to low
battery but I'm not getting through batteries...

So a UPS typically gives you a grace time of say 5 to 15 minutes before
it shuts down ...

That runtime is normally quoted for full load.

... as if you discharge the batteries too far, the battery lifetime is
shortened.

A decent UPS won't let you discharge the batteries too far. B-)

If you are running your UPS for that length of time, The UPS's inverter
and batteries will be getting warmer than would be typical which will
certainly affect the lifetime and reliability of the UPS.

That length of time at full load. Mine is sat at 10%, around 50% of
that is the HP Microserver. 2 minutes after the supply fails the
server shuts down and switches off (UPS is there to maintain the VOIP
phones rather than full net access). The UPS happily runs at 5% ish
for hours...

If this is not feasible at the location of teh UPS, you can use a
raspberry Pi with some UPS software on it and then you can SSH or Putty
or remote desktop into the Pi to check up on teh UPS state and reporting
logs.

But not gracefully shutdown "remote" computers unless they get their
power from that UPS or other maintained supply.

230 V AC mains to DC battery charging within the UPS
DC to AC inverter within the UPS
Then 220V AC to DC conversion via the various wall warts to the IT kit

vs

Car battery trickle charger from 220 V AC to 12V DC

Then a bank of LM317Ts set to the required DC voltages to the router,
ONT, Wifi AP thereby bypassing the wall warts entirely

This is one conversion efficiency loss only vs 3 sets of conversion
efficiency losses.

Two losses, your fogetting the DC-DC conversion via a very lossy
linear convertor, especially for 5 V devices. You could mitigate that
a bit by using a switching DC-DC convertor.

You can even wire two Honda generators in parallel via a kit and have an
automatic start device in case of a power loss. An ordinary UPS can then
cover the transition between grid power and locally generated power.

Not quite as simple as it sounds, the generator needs to start, run
up to speed and stabilise before its output is switched to the UPS
input. I dread to think what UPS would make of being fed from a
genset as it starts.

A genset also opens up a whole raft of worm cans regarding connecting
a genset to the premesis wiring, earth requirements, not back feeding
the grid, etc.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Thursday, 6 August 2020 10:26:11 UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote:
If the POTS service moved to the ONT POTS port, what happens then?
Without some form of power backup you lose POTS service.

The trend is now to move POTS to the router, not the ONT. This means that Openreach just support the ONT, and the ISP just supports the router.

ISPs won't want to support power fail, and they're even reluctant to support voice reinjection from their router to home extension wiring.

Owain

No Name wrote:

wrote:

And what does pressing the "on" button do during a power-cut?

the UPS will not start up on battery only if there is no mains power
present....

I meant if the smartups was running on battery and beeping ... pressing
the "on" button will silence it (and since it's a separate on button,
not a combined on/off button, no risk of turning it off).

Also a smartups *will* allow you to turn it on with no mains present
(long press the "on" button until it gives a warble, then short press it
again).

On Thu, 06 Aug 2020 10:18:38 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

Bob Eager wrote:

No Name wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:
No Name wrote:

Most UPSes start beeping during a power cut. Will the beeping of up
to 2 hours drive you up the wall?

Only if you don't press the "silence" button ...

I've owned loads of UPSes over the years and I've never seen a silence
button!.

I have three APC units here and all they have is on/off.

And what does pressing the "on" button do during a power-cut?

Dunno. Nothing in the documentation for the three units in use. Nor for a
small modified sine wave one that I was given but haven't used.

Difficult to test, since it might turn it off and I wouldn't want that.
Normally, it is shut off automatically after it sends 'low battery' to
the controlling server, which initiates shutdown and then tells the UPS
to go off after a short delay.

I note something in the FAQ on the APC website, so when I get a chance
I'll shut everything down on one of them and give it a go.

Thanks - worth knowiung if it works.

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

Dave Liquorice wrote:

No Name wrote:

My choice of UPS make would be APC.

I'd look very hard at other makes before getting another APC. They
have (had?) a habit of cooking the batteries.

I think that reputation is not particularly deserved, yes if left in
poorly ventilated places they get hot (and I've seen the resulting
distorted batteries and short life) but mine runs at ~30C and the float
voltage as measured by a multimeter is is bang-on 54V which is Yuasa's
recommendation, allowing for -3mV compensation per degree above 20C.

Meaning that they'd be
knackered enough after 4 years to make the runtime

My last two sets have made 5 years (or rather 4 years 11 months for the
last set, I don't allow it to do the regular self-test).

even at low loads, rather too short, read tens of minutes rather than
half a dozen hours.

I've had 6-8 hour runs from mine (router, switch, DECT phone, a lowish
powered PC that records TV)

I got ****ed off at this "feature" and attacked mine 5
years ago to reduce the charge voltage and fit a fan. The new
batteries fitted at that time are still good. Yes, it takes longer to
reach the 15% capacity switch on point after switching off due to low
battery but I'm not getting through batteries...

When I measured voltage on mine, I was expecting to find it
significantly high, but it wasn't, I did knock it down 0.5V but spread
over 24 cells I doubt they notice.

On Thu, 6 Aug 2020 03:17:20 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

If the POTS service moved to the ONT POTS port, what happens then?
Without some form of power backup you lose POTS service.

The trend is now to move POTS to the router, not the ONT. This means
that Openreach just support the ONT, and the ISP just supports the
router.

How does this fit with the PSTN switch off in 2025?
What if all you want is voice service, no broadband?

ISPs won't want to support power fail, ...

A (brief) google found that the "providers" should have at least one
solution that providees a minimum of 1 hour backup in the event of a
local power fail. This should be available for free to those "at
risk". The providers have an obligation to identify which of their
customers are "at risk" and communicate effectively with all
customers over the risks of local power failure and solution(s)
available.

... and they're even reluctant to support voice reinjection from their
router to home extension wiring.

Can't blame 'em for that. Remember Openreach only support to the test
socket on the NTE.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 06/08/2020 12:13, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Thu, 6 Aug 2020 03:17:20 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

If the POTS service moved to the ONT POTS port, what happens then?
Without some form of power backup you lose POTS service.

The trend is now to move POTS to the router, not the ONT. This means
that Openreach just support the ONT, and the ISP just supports the
router.

How does this fit with the PSTN switch off in 2025?

Hadn't heard that...

What if all you want is voice service, no broadband?

then you will get fibre, and VOIP and a battery


ISPs won't want to support power fail, ...

A (brief) google found that the "providers" should have at least one
solution that providees a minimum of 1 hour backup in the event of a
local power fail. This should be available for free to those "at
risk". The providers have an obligation to identify which of their
customers are "at risk" and communicate effectively with all
customers over the risks of local power failure and solution(s)
available.

... and they're even reluctant to support voice reinjection from their
router to home extension wiring.

Can't blame 'em for that. Remember Openreach only support to the test
socket on the NTE.



--
€œThe ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to
fill the world with fools.€�

Herbert Spencer

Sn!pe wrote:
Chris Green wrote:

Sn!pe wrote:
[...]
May I please have recommendations for a domestic UPS to
provide backup power to a FTTC modem, a router/WiFi AP
and a small Synology NAS for two hours or more? In this
case quality and reliabilty are more important than cost.


Why keep the NAS going? There's nothing with power to
use it is there?


That's true enough, but I'm old fashioned enough to fret
about an ungraceful shutdown if mains power goes off.
Perhaps I'm worrying needlessly, but running it on a UPS
would mean it could be shut down gracefully.

I've certainly never had an issue with either a NAS (I had a WD one
for many years) nor with two Linux destop machines which run all the
time here. The 'desktop' machine which is my backup system in the
garage is set so that it doesn't restart when power is restored but my
actual desktop system does restart. We do get the occasional power
failure here (a couple of times a year maybe) and, as I've said, I've
not had any issues. The desktop has had to run fsck to sort things
out I think, but that's all.

--
Chris Green
·

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Thu, 6 Aug 2020 03:17:20 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

If the POTS service moved to the ONT POTS port, what happens then?
Without some form of power backup you lose POTS service.

The trend is now to move POTS to the router, not the ONT. This means
that Openreach just support the ONT, and the ISP just supports the
router.

How does this fit with the PSTN switch off in 2025?
What if all you want is voice service, no broadband?

Openreach provide a minimalist 500k broadband service (over FTTP or copper).
You get a router which is voice-only - no ethernet or wifi.
Your ISP then provides your phone service over VOIP.
Possibly the connection is firewalled so you can only connect to the ISP's
VOIP server, rather than the internet.

You end up with some extra boxes but your analogue phones work as they
previously did.

A (brief) google found that the "providers" should have at least one
solution that providees a minimum of 1 hour backup in the event of a
local power fail. This should be available for free to those "at
risk". The providers have an obligation to identify which of their
customers are "at risk" and communicate effectively with all
customers over the risks of local power failure and solution(s)
available.

That's the BBU-of-NiMH-cells. Not a lot of use if power is down for days
due to storms.

... and they're even reluctant to support voice reinjection from their
router to home extension wiring.

Can't blame 'em for that. Remember Openreach only support to the test
socket on the NTE.

I suspect there will be some pushback about that. There are NTE plates that
allow diversion of extensions into the router's analogue phone port, but
they don't seem to be supplying them as standard. It's caused a lot of bad
feeling from people being given SOGEA without being told.

Theo

Bob Eager wrote:

I note something in the FAQ on the APC website, so when I get a chance
I'll shut everything down on one of them and give it a go.

Some of the cheaper APCs (backups rather than smartups?) have a combined
on/off button, rather than separate on and off buttons; with those you
give it a 2 second press to silence and have to be careful not to press
it too much longer after it gives a double confirmation beep, otherwise
you can accidentally turn it off.

On 05/08/2020 13:59, wrote:
On Wednesday, 5 August 2020 13:53:11 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Following a thread on uk.telecom this might be of use to people here
contemplating FTTP as well.
https://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?...20installation

Firefox refuses, and Chrome dislikes, your page because of security

NET::ERR_CERT_AUTHORITY_INVALID
Subject: mx.xen19.node00001.gigatux.com
Issuer: mx.xen19.node00001.gigatux.com
Expires on: 11 Nov 2021
Current date: 5 Aug 2020

Owain


KAspersky on edge doesn't like it either. NO or bad certificate

On 05/08/2020 14:14, John Rumm wrote:
On 05/08/2020 13:53, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Following a thread on uk.telecom this might be of use to people here
contemplating FTTPÂ* as well.

https://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?...20installation

What is in the external box?

Looks like they have "cost reduced" the install and done away with the
battery backup for the PON terminal. (they used to include the
termination and the battery backup both installed in a larger wall mount
box:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...nitWithPSU.png

(the box on the right has 4 AAs in it).

Interesting they actually made use of the copper pair in the drop
wire... On mine they just wound it up near the termination and saved it
for some future time if required (there are already 2 x pots drop wires
into the house). They did moan that the very thin teflon insulated wire
was very difficult to strip and use!


And drilled through the wall from the inside, blowing off the
render on the outside.

On 05/08/2020 15:47, John Rumm wrote:
On 05/08/2020 14:36, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 14:14:36 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 05/08/2020 13:53, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Following a thread on uk.telecom this might be of use to people here
contemplating FTTPÂ* as well.

https://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?...20installation

What is in the external box?

Looks like they have "cost reduced" the install and done away with the
battery backup for the PON terminal. (they used to include the
termination and the battery backup both installed in a larger wall mount
box:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...nitWithPSU.png

(the box on the right has 4 AAs in it).

Interesting they actually made use of the copper pair in the drop
wire... On mine they just wound it up near the termination and saved it
for some future time if required (there are already 2 x pots drop wires
into the house). They did moan that the very thin teflon insulated wire
was very difficult to strip and use!

I have seen this on the other thread.Â* If you are over 65, can you
just register as 'vulnerable' and tell them you need a reliable system
that works 24/7?

For most existing users this will be for broadband provision only, so
any existing phone lines will carry on working as they currently do.

However they are moving toward disbanding the copper network, and FTTP
will become the default install even if all you want is voice. That will
then be provided by VoIP on a "slow" (500Kbps) FTTP service. It may be
that for voice only users they will provide the battery backup.

ehh ?. ISDN was 64K and all the journalists used it to talk to the
'office' and be good enough for broadcast.

(they probably figure for data users, its a moot point since few of them
will have a UPS to hold up all their other IT kit to actually benefit
from the broadband staying up during a power cut)

Andrew wrote:

ehh ?. ISDN was 64K and all the journalists used it to talk to the
'office' and be good enough for broadcast.

circuit switched v.s. packet switched, and possibly the journos used
128kbps channel bonding?

On 06/08/2020 09:09, Sn!pe wrote:
Chris Green wrote:

Sn!pe wrote:
[...]
May I please have recommendations for a domestic UPS to
provide backup power to a FTTC modem, a router/WiFi AP
and a small Synology NAS for two hours or more? In this
case quality and reliabilty are more important than cost.


Why keep the NAS going? There's nothing with power to
use it is there?


That's true enough, but I'm old fashioned enough to fret
about an ungraceful shutdown if mains power goes off.
Perhaps I'm worrying needlessly, but running it on a UPS
would mean it could be shut down gracefully.

I have my UPS conneted to my NAS via USB so they can talk. The NAS is
set to do a graceful shutdown when the remaining power in the UPS gets
down to ~20%


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 06/08/2020 01:05, Sn!pe wrote:
[N.B. Subject amended]

John Rumm wrote:

On 05/08/2020 20:36, charles wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
On 05/08/2020 17:11, polygonum_on_google wrote:

[...]

Few will have a UPS, indeed. But many will have tablets, laptops,
phones, etc., which have a UPS effectively built-in as they are
battery devices.

Does not help much when your router and wifi is not powered...

I have a small UPS which supplies my FTTC router and modem which gives
me wifi.

Well same here - but I suspect we are in a tiny minority. Also having a
USP you can power the PON terminal as well - so it does not need its own
battery. However for those without a UPS the PON terminal running on its
own is pointless, so ergo, it does not need its own battery.


May I please have recommendations for a domestic UPS to
provide backup power to a FTTC modem, a router/WiFi AP
and a small Synology NAS for two hours or more? In this
case quality and reliabilty are more important than cost.

Doing the total load is easy... doing it for 2 hours is somewhat harder
(i.e. significantly more expensive). Typically you will need to over
spec the power handling capacity to also get the battery size and run
time. (having less run time, but comms between NAS and UPS to do a
graceful shutdown might make more sense)

First look at what you actual load is. You could be pulling 100W ish
from what you describe (depending on how many drives the NAS is
running), then run the numbers through a manufacturers calculator.

APC do expansion battery packs for some of their units. So for example a
1.5kVA Back-Ups Pro, and an external battery pack could hold up a 100W
load for over 3 hours - but might also set you back £600+

As to brand, I would tend to stick to the better known ones like APC or
MEM EATON simply because the software support is better, and more
devices will understand how to talk to them without any faffing about.

APC have a reputation for being hard on batteries [1], but work and
integrate well generally.

[1] Here is one I had some difficulty prising out of one of my 1kVA
Back-Ups units:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/File:Wonkybatt1.jpg
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...wonkybatts.jpg

(installed March 2013, removed Dec 2017)



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 06/08/2020 11:11, No Name wrote:
On 06/08/2020 10:18, Andy Burns wrote:
Bob Eager wrote:

No Name wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:
No Name wrote:

Most UPSes start beeping during a power cut. Will the beeping of
up to
2 hours drive you up the wall?

Only if you don't press the "silence" button ...

I've owned loads of UPSes over the years and I've never seen a silence
button!.

I have three APC units here and all they have is on/off.

And what does pressing the "on" button do during a power-cut?



the UPS will not start up on battery only if there is no mains power
present....

Many can be persuaded to do so with a long push of the button.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:

APC have a reputation for being hard on batteries
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/File:Wonkybatt1.jpg
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...wonkybatts.jpg

Here's one where the UPS was in an unventilated broom cupboard with a
half-height rack of IT kit

http://adslpipe.co.uk/photos/APC_UPS_battery.jpg

On 06/08/2020 16:55, Andrew wrote:
On 05/08/2020 15:47, John Rumm wrote:
On 05/08/2020 14:36, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 14:14:36 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 05/08/2020 13:53, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Following a thread on uk.telecom this might be of use to people here
contemplating FTTPÂ* as well.

https://vps.templar.co.uk/index.php?...20installation

What is in the external box?

Looks like they have "cost reduced" the install and done away with the
battery backup for the PON terminal. (they used to include the
termination and the battery backup both installed in a larger wall
mount
box:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...nitWithPSU.png

(the box on the right has 4 AAs in it).

Interesting they actually made use of the copper pair in the drop
wire... On mine they just wound it up near the termination and saved it
for some future time if required (there are already 2 x pots drop wires
into the house). They did moan that the very thin teflon insulated wire
was very difficult to strip and use!

I have seen this on the other thread.Â* If you are over 65, can you
just register as 'vulnerable' and tell them you need a reliable system
that works 24/7?

For most existing users this will be for broadband provision only, so
any existing phone lines will carry on working as they currently do.

However they are moving toward disbanding the copper network, and FTTP
will become the default install even if all you want is voice. That
will then be provided by VoIP on a "slow" (500Kbps) FTTP service. It
may be that for voice only users they will provide the battery backup.

ehh ?. ISDN was 64K and all the journalists used it to talk to the
'office' and be good enough for broadcast.

Probably chosen since it will handle multiple "lines" with good quality
and low latency, without needing to worry about more expensive routers
with QoS or VoIP prioritisation. (I did read a suggestion they may also
allow it to be used for a basic broadband provision if required)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:
On 06/08/2020 16:55, Andrew wrote:
ehh ?. ISDN was 64K and all the journalists used it to talk to the
'office' and be good enough for broadcast.

Probably chosen since it will handle multiple "lines" with good quality
and low latency, without needing to worry about more expensive routers
with QoS or VoIP prioritisation. (I did read a suggestion they may also
allow it to be used for a basic broadband provision if required)

And GPON has you sharing bandwidth with the other people on your local
segment. It's still the same line rate as if you took the 1Gbps package,
they just throttle you down to 500kbps in software. 128k, 500k, 1Mbps,
10Mbps - it's all minimal as far as the FTTP is concerned. Possibly 500K is
something even ADSL1 can handle and yet 'good enough' for a few voice lines.
(you don't really want multiple FTTP connections, ONTs, etc)

500K broadband sounds pretty painful in today's world!

Theo

Sn!pe wrote:
[...]
May I please have recommendations for a domestic UPS to
provide backup power to a FTTC modem, a router/WiFi AP
and a small Synology NAS for two hours or more? In this
case quality and reliabilty are more important than cost.

I already have a basic line-powered landline phone so there's
no need to provide for that. Also, my mobile phone can
provide limited WiFi hotspot data service, so I'd like to be
able to charge phones and iPads too.

TIA


Thank you everybody for your answers, I have a much
better understanding of what's involved now. I'll do
some more research.

Thanks again.

--
^Ï^ https://youtu.be/_kqytf31a8E

My pet rock Gordon just is.

On Thu, 6 Aug 2020 11:46:37 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

I'd look very hard at other makes before getting another APC. They
have (had?) a habit of cooking the batteries.

I think that reputation is not particularly deserved, ...

They don't seem to have quite the same problem these days. Mine is
Smart-UPS 700 manufactured 11/03/98 (it says) and been in constant
use since l bought it in the first half of '99. So reliabilty of the
unit isn't an issue.

If in the market for a UPS i'd be looking to see if APC and cooked
batteries was still a topic for dicussion on the 'net.

... yes if left in poorly ventilated places they get hot (and I've seen
the resulting distorted batteries and short life) ...

When the last lot of batteries almost went into meltdown, the UPS was
sat on top of a small tower PC under table in a living room, So
plenty of ventilation and 20 C.

... but mine runs at ~30C ...

Before being "got at" mine would be running at 40 C plus in the
living room, ie a good 25 C above ambient. It's now in the "services
cupboard" along with the thermal store, it's warm in there, 25 to 30+
C a lot of the time. Currently the cupboard is at 30 C but the UPS is
only 37 C.

... and the float voltage as measured by a multimeter is is bang-on 54V
which is Yuasa's recommendation, allowing for -3mV compensation per
degree above 20C.

Before being got at the voltage on mine was two or three volts above
the recommended level, over 12 cells (2 x 12 V batteries).

My last two sets have made 5 years (or rather 4 years 11 months for the
last set,

I lied earlier the batteries currently in the UPS were installed when
I modified it in Mar 14, 6 1/2 years... I guess I really ought to
give it a run-time test.

I don't allow it to do the regular self-test).

Niether do I, that's a sure way to shorten battery life.

I've had 6-8 hour runs from mine (router, switch, DECT phone, a lowish
powered PC that records TV)

I've got a 2.5 kVA (I think) APC Smart UPS stored. Needs batteries
but 4 x 17 AHr SLAs don't come cheap. I might get a tuit for 4 x
leisure batteries for it at some point. The Smart-UPS 700 does it's
job without eating batteries now, so getting the 2.5 up and runningh
is a long way down the list.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Fri, 07 Aug 2020 11:11:46 +0100, Dave Liquorice wrote:

I don't allow it to do the regular self-test).

Niether do I, that's a sure way to shorten battery life.

I run a test once a week. THe 1400 and 1500 models have batteries last
5-6 years. The 700 (in a rack, hotter) lasts about 3-4 years.

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

Dave Liquorice wrote:

I'd look very hard at other makes before getting another APC. They
have (had?) a habit of cooking the batteries.

I think that reputation is not particularly deserved, ...

They don't seem to have quite the same problem these days.

All of mine (2x SU2200, 1x SU1400) are quite ancient, the beige cases,
not black.

Mine is Smart-UPS 700 manufactured 11/03/98 (it says) and been in
constant use since l bought it in the first half of '99. So
reliabilty of the unit isn't an issue.

The reasons I'm willing to be generous to mine a) they're designed to
withstand nuclear attack b) they were free.

I've got a 2.5 kVA (I think) APC Smart UPS stored. Needs batteries
but 4 x 17 AHr SLAs don't come cheap.

£102 delivered. https://www.tayna.co.uk/ups-batteries/powerline/pu220/

On Sat, 8 Aug 2020 09:38:25 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

I've got a 2.5 kVA (I think) APC Smart UPS stored. Needs batteries
but 4 x 17 AHr SLAs don't come cheap.

£102 delivered.

Your definition of "cheap" is at variance with mine. B-)

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Thu, 6 Aug 2020 12:28:17 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

How does this fit with the PSTN switch off in 2025?

Hadn't heard that...

Where have you been? First surfaced around 17/18.

What if all you want is voice service, no broadband?

then you will get fibre, and VOIP and a battery

Define "fibre". FTTC or FTTP? We are too far from the cabinet for
VDSL to work, well it'll work but be no better than ADSL2+ which
gives us 5 Mbps. But down in the village they where lucky to get 1
Mbps. Beyond the village basically forget it.

FTTP, maybe, Tempted to say "don't make eye larf". Yes Openreach are
going for a full fibre network but I can't see that being in place by
end of 2025.

I suspect they are going to have a solution that works over 5+ miles
of copper, is easy to install (swap out the rear half of the NTE?)
and emulate analogue POTS. But where does the power come from if
there is no handy mains socket with 6' of the NTE?

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 08/08/2020 11:01, Dave Liquorice wrote:
I suspect they are going to have a solution that works over 5+ miles
of copper, is easy to install (swap out the rear half of the NTE?)
and emulate analogue POTS.

its called fttp.
the cost of laying fibre is in the end less than the cost of putting in
powered repeaters.

But where does the power come from if
there is no handy mains socket with 6' of the NTE?

FTTP doesnt use the NTE,


--
A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on
its shoes.

On 06 Aug 2020 13:18:17 +0100 (BST), Theo wrote:

A (brief) google found that the "providers" should have at least
one
solution that providees a minimum of 1 hour backup in the event of
a
local power fail. This should be available for free to those "at
risk". The providers have an obligation to identify which of their
customers are "at risk" and communicate effectively with all
customers over the risks of local power failure and solution(s)
available.

That's the BBU-of-NiMH-cells.

But who supplies it? If the provider is responsible for the back up
solution Openreach aren't going to be interested. And no doubt there
will be variations in the (optical and/or copper) termination kit
that Openreach install so how does the provider know which BBU to
supply?
I guess the provider subs it out to Openreach. You can't expect
Granny Arbuckle to "self install" anything.

Longer term who is responsible for making sure any back up solution
is maintained so it actually works when needed?

Not a lot of use if power is down for days due to storms.

Even up here (1400' on the North Pennines) the power is very
reliable. In 20+ years we've only had one outage that triggered the
compensation payments that kick in after 12 hours off supply. We were
off for 36 hours after an ice storm brought down the lines in
multiple places, snapping lots of poles in the process.

Most outages are a few seconds auto reclosure trip and reset when a
branch touches the line or less than hour as they reroute the
distribution around a fault.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sat, 8 Aug 2020 11:28:19 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I suspect they are going to have a solution that works over 5+
miles
of copper, is easy to install (swap out the rear half of the NTE?)
and emulate analogue POTS.

its called fttp.
the cost of laying fibre is in the end less than the cost of putting in
powered repeaters.

Powered repeaters? AIUI FTTP is provided over GPON it doesn't have
powered repeaters just passive optical splits that can be stuffed
into a hole in the ground miles from the head end.

Is there a fibre equivalent to 50 pair armoured cable that is buried
direct? Miles of such cables feed many places around here, the only
over head bits being from the road to premises. Trenching for a duct
is very expensive, even ploughing in a duct isn't cheap. Fibre
doesn't like being stretched, not sure you could plough in an
armoured fibre cable.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article l.net,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 8 Aug 2020 11:28:19 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I suspect they are going to have a solution that works over 5+
miles
of copper, is easy to install (swap out the rear half of the NTE?)
and emulate analogue POTS.

its called fttp.
the cost of laying fibre is in the end less than the cost of putting in
powered repeaters.

Powered repeaters? AIUI FTTP is provided over GPON it doesn't have
powered repeaters just passive optical splits that can be stuffed
into a hole in the ground miles from the head end.

Is there a fibre equivalent to 50 pair armoured cable that is buried
direct? Miles of such cables feed many places around here, the only
over head bits being from the road to premises. Trenching for a duct
is very expensive, even ploughing in a duct isn't cheap. Fibre
doesn't like being stretched, not sure you could plough in an
armoured fibre cable.

round heer, openReach have just been installing fibre on old fashioned
poles. I'm not sure of the reason.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On Sat, 08 Aug 2020 12:07:02 +0100, charles wrote:

round heer, openReach have just been installing fibre on old fashioned
poles. I'm not sure of the reason.

Part of the full fibre project I expect, it's quick and cheap. There
are loads of locations near here that have had the copper removed and
fibre installed. They are all places with the copper over head and
with a dozen or more permises close to each other. I've yet to see
anywhere with fibre popping out of the ground at single pole feeding
a single premises with places spaced at 1/4 to 1/2 mile intervals.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sat, 08 Aug 2020 12:07:02 +0100, charles
wrote:

In article l.net,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 8 Aug 2020 11:28:19 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I suspect they are going to have a solution that works over 5+
miles
of copper, is easy to install (swap out the rear half of the NTE?)
and emulate analogue POTS.

its called fttp.
the cost of laying fibre is in the end less than the cost of putting in
powered repeaters.

Powered repeaters? AIUI FTTP is provided over GPON it doesn't have
powered repeaters just passive optical splits that can be stuffed
into a hole in the ground miles from the head end.

Is there a fibre equivalent to 50 pair armoured cable that is buried
direct? Miles of such cables feed many places around here, the only
over head bits being from the road to premises. Trenching for a duct
is very expensive, even ploughing in a duct isn't cheap. Fibre
doesn't like being stretched, not sure you could plough in an
armoured fibre cable.

round heer, openReach have just been installing fibre on old fashioned
poles. I'm not sure of the reason.

Cost, I assume?

On Sat, 08 Aug 2020 12:32:15 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Sat, 08 Aug 2020 12:07:02 +0100, charles wrote:

round heer, openReach have just been installing fibre on old fashioned
poles. I'm not sure of the reason.

Part of the full fibre project I expect, it's quick and cheap. There
are loads of locations near here that have had the copper removed and
fibre installed. They are all places with the copper over head and
with a dozen or more permises close to each other. I've yet to see
anywhere with fibre popping out of the ground at single pole feeding
a single premises with places spaced at 1/4 to 1/2 mile intervals.

Returning to the original topic, I assume that most exchange only
lines will be underground. To replace them with fibre optic, would the
road typically require to be dug up for the entire route, or could
they be pulled through using the existing copper cables?

Would selling the copper as scrap help to pay for the project?

On 08/08/2020 12:03, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 8 Aug 2020 11:28:19 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I suspect they are going to have a solution that works over 5+
miles
of copper, is easy to install (swap out the rear half of the NTE?)
and emulate analogue POTS.

its called fttp.
the cost of laying fibre is in the end less than the cost of putting in
powered repeaters.

Powered repeaters? AIUI FTTP is provided over GPON it doesn't have
powered repeaters just passive optical splits that can be stuffed
into a hole in the ground miles from the head end.

That's exactly why I said what I said Dave.
The cost of fibre is less than the cost of powered repeaters (for copper)


Is there a fibre equivalent to 50 pair armoured cable that is buried
direct? Miles of such cables feed many places around here, the only
over head bits being from the road to premises. Trenching for a duct
is very expensive, even ploughing in a duct isn't cheap. Fibre
doesn't like being stretched, not sure you could plough in an
armoured fibre cable.

Armoured fibre will take an enornous number of 'circuits' . So very
little fibre replaces a 50 pr. One fibre should do


So it can be dragged through existing ducts easily, or just added to a pole

I am not sure BT has *ever* buried cables in the soil without ducts.

But in principle burying fibre should be MUCH easier and more problem-free


--
Microsoft : the best reason to go to Linux that ever existed.

On 08/08/2020 12:32, Dave Liquorice wrote:
I've yet to see
anywhere with fibre popping out of the ground at single pole feeding
a single premises with places spaced at 1/4 to 1/2 mile intervals.

well if you had looked at my website that is precisely what you would
have seen.

My pole feeds me, and me alone, and the same for my nearest neighbour.


--
Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the
gospel of envy.

Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

Winston Churchill