A mate is selling his wife's (she passed away recently) Mercury
Regatta mobility scooter and I'm considering it for my Mum (90).

She did ride Dads lightweight / take-down trike but when coming to a
halt on the down-amp at a pedestrian crossing, rather than just
letting go of the throttle bar her ancient cycle riding muscle memory
kicked in and she pulled what she for that second thought was the
front brake. ;-(

Luckily I was ready for such and event and was just able to hold her
back from going straight out in front of a 4X4 (that very
considerately didn't slow down but just sounded the horn). ;-(

So, rather than a finger operated, brake-like f/r throttle bar, this
Regatta has a thumb(s) operated 'Wigwag paddle' and apparently my
sister hired her something like that at a garden centre and she got on
with it well (no mishaps).

Anyway, mate has let us have it on approval to make sure 1) we can get
it into Mums back garden easily and 2) to see if she's happy with it.
I have previously done a discharge test on the 50Ah batteries and they
were both around 40Ah so still useable.

So, we got it to ours tonight with the thought of taking it to Mums
when we get a chance (one of us can ride it there) and when giving it
a quick look over (I was going to treat the tyres (tunes) with
Punctureseal and pump the tyres up etc) I felt the front suspension (a
coil-over-shock on a trailing arm, like a sand rail g) and it felt
non existent. I first put the grease gun on the main pivot nipples
and it took a few pumps but I saw no grease anywhere. Not wanting to
fill the arm with grease, I thought I'd better give it a closer look.

I removed the nsf axle bolt and had to tap the wheel off with a rubber
mallet. Then, to get the swinging arm off I had to disconnect the
track rod end, the spring damper and the king-pin (large socket head
bolt with Nylock nut) and stub axle assembly.

I then released the trailing arm (central bolt and large washer) and
pulled the arm off and it was very dry and rusty. The only grease that
was in there was the few pumps I put into it that had only half filled
the greaseway?

I later mentioned what I had found to my mate and he was particularly
annoyed that he had paid another 60 quid (on top of the s/h purchase
price of £600 in a mobility shop) for a 'full service'?

Ok, I wouldn't have expected them to strip what I did down but they
obviously hadn't even stuck a grease gun on the front suspension?

I also found the sealed bearings in the steering upright / kingpin
were so stiff the chances are they were sliding on the pin (and so
wearing it out) and that wheel bearing was also noisy.

So, tomorrow morning I hope to do the other side and anything else I
can strip / clean / check / lube and make notes of any bearings I find
questionable, ready to replace if Mum likes it and decides to keep it.

Two things that we don't mind there. Assuming nothing has worn because
the wrong stuff was moving ... 1) I can be happy it's all as it should
be and 2) I will have a better understanding how it all works, should
I need to look at any of it in the future.

I have already got the (Curtis) battery charger as that had stopped
working. Upon inspection I found the main 6.3A mains input fuse has
blown and there was the signs of a bit of a flashover near one of the
main SMPSU IC's.

https://ibb.co/mRYmM8w

I have some new (wire in) fuses but I might try the old 60W 240V lamp
across it first? The IC's are £10 for 5 from China, if I bother to go
that far.

There is a bit of corrosion inside the case so I think water got in
there somehow (they kept the scooter in one of those rigid plastic
mini cabin things, along with an external double mains socket).

I'm not particularly bothered if it is dead as I may well replace it
with a pair of Optimate 2's and charge both batteries individually via
an extra port in any case.

So, I was wondering if anyone here has, had or maintains a Regatta
mobility scooter and what you thought of them please?

Cheers, T i m

On 04/08/2020 00:47, T i m wrote:

She did ride Dads lightweight / take-down trike but when coming to a
halt on the down-amp at a pedestrian crossing, rather than just
letting go of the throttle bar her ancient cycle riding muscle memory
kicked in and she pulled what she for that second thought was the
front brake. ;-(

There's a very simple thing to drill into scooter riders: "LET GO!" In
other words, if it's all going wrong, release your grip and lift your
hands off the controls. The scooter will stop dead.

Bill

On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 01:38:24 +0100, williamwright
wrote:

On 04/08/2020 00:47, T i m wrote:

She did ride Dads lightweight / take-down trike but when coming to a
halt on the down-amp at a pedestrian crossing, rather than just
letting go of the throttle bar her ancient cycle riding muscle memory
kicked in and she pulled what she for that second thought was the
front brake. ;-(

There's a very simple thing to drill into scooter riders: "LET GO!" In
other words, if it's all going wrong, release your grip and lift your
hands off the controls. The scooter will stop dead.

We (Mum and I) had that conversation several times Bill (and practiced
it) and in probably two hours of her running around on it, that was
the first time she had been in that scenario (coming to halt on a down
ramp, by a main road). [1]

The point being that on the flat and under 'normal' (non emergency /
downhill stop) circumstances, our message was being considered.
However, it's not those situations that are likely to rely on muscle
memory and it was when that clicked in the problem happened.

It's similar to all those (typically older) people who put their cars
though walls or into other cars in car park when you mix up the pedals
on their autos. The lady opposite did in her auto car and damaged the
front of her car and crushed her gas meter box. ;-(

As an aside, the scooter was a TGA Ultralight: (just an example
picture from the net)

https://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTc2WDEwMjQ=/z/zxcAAOSwSYpbvDvk/$_86.JPG

The first model was FWD and that made it *very* manoeuvrable so
perfect for shopping or local pavement work. You might be able to see
the throttle lever and in use, it does feel (and fall to hand) very
much like a brake.

And whilst Mum does still have her marbles, she does sometimes seem to
suffer some mental buffering, not the sort of thing we want when
crossing a busy road. ;-(

Plus, the Regatta is bigger, 4 wheels, has inflatable tyres, has
suspension and so likely to be better (more comfortable) over some
slightly offroad terrain (park paths and towpaths etc). The downside
is that it's f'in heavy so might go in one of the trailers (because
they are low) if it needed transporting . It probably would go in the
back of the Meriva, especially if you loaded the batteries separately
(or there were 3 of you).

Cheers, T i m

[1] I had a Royal Enfield 350 Bullet (Madras) that had the foot
controls (gear / rear brake) 'reversed' to what I was used to.

Eg, I was used to braking with my right foot (Lambretta scooter /
Japanese / German motorcycles and cars).

So, whilst I was perfectly comfortable riding it under ordinary
conditions, under emergency conditions I found myself applying the
front brake and stamping it into 1st gear, rather than applying the
rear / foot brake. Because I often had our daughter pillion, I sold it
rather than take the risk.

On Tue, 04 Aug 2020 00:47:16 +0100, T i m wrote:

Ok, I wouldn't have expected them to strip what I did down but they
obviously hadn't even stuck a grease gun on the front suspension?

Seems odd that there is no grease at all in the suspension not even a
smear here or there from initial manufacture. I'd try an find a
sevice manual to see if that model/year is supposed to be greased or
if they switched to sealed bearings but left the nipple. Either that
and it's been stripped before and who ever did that didn't finish the
job properly.

Don't know how "user friendly" Regatta are. As this is a mobilty
scooter I wouldn't be surised if they refuse to talk to you and
inisist that you take it to one of their "certified service depots".

I have already got the (Curtis) battery charger as that had stopped
working. Upon inspection I found the main 6.3A mains input fuse has
blown and there was the signs of a bit of a flashover near one of the
main SMPSU IC's.

https://ibb.co/mRYmM8w

Looks like the magic smoke got out from pins 5 & 6 of that chip and
condensed on the board towards D14. I'd expect something else to have
gone phut first to then take out that chip. Chopper transistors,
mains side smoothing capacitors? Remember that a mains SMPSU has some
nasty voltages flying about inside it.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Tuesday, 4 August 2020 00:47:17 UTC+1, T i m wrote:

A mate is selling his wife's (she passed away recently) Mercury
Regatta mobility scooter and I'm considering it for my Mum (90).

She did ride Dads lightweight / take-down trike but when coming to a
halt on the down-amp at a pedestrian crossing, rather than just
letting go of the throttle bar her ancient cycle riding muscle memory
kicked in and she pulled what she for that second thought was the
front brake. ;-(

Luckily I was ready for such and event and was just able to hold her
back from going straight out in front of a 4X4 (that very
considerately didn't slow down but just sounded the horn). ;-(

So, rather than a finger operated, brake-like f/r throttle bar, this
Regatta has a thumb(s) operated 'Wigwag paddle' and apparently my
sister hired her something like that at a garden centre and she got on
with it well (no mishaps).

Anyway, mate has let us have it on approval to make sure 1) we can get
it into Mums back garden easily and 2) to see if she's happy with it.
I have previously done a discharge test on the 50Ah batteries and they
were both around 40Ah so still useable.

So, we got it to ours tonight with the thought of taking it to Mums
when we get a chance (one of us can ride it there) and when giving it
a quick look over (I was going to treat the tyres (tunes) with
Punctureseal and pump the tyres up etc) I felt the front suspension (a
coil-over-shock on a trailing arm, like a sand rail g) and it felt
non existent. I first put the grease gun on the main pivot nipples
and it took a few pumps but I saw no grease anywhere. Not wanting to
fill the arm with grease, I thought I'd better give it a closer look.

I removed the nsf axle bolt and had to tap the wheel off with a rubber
mallet. Then, to get the swinging arm off I had to disconnect the
track rod end, the spring damper and the king-pin (large socket head
bolt with Nylock nut) and stub axle assembly.

I then released the trailing arm (central bolt and large washer) and
pulled the arm off and it was very dry and rusty. The only grease that
was in there was the few pumps I put into it that had only half filled
the greaseway?

I later mentioned what I had found to my mate and he was particularly
annoyed that he had paid another 60 quid (on top of the s/h purchase
price of £600 in a mobility shop) for a 'full service'?

Ok, I wouldn't have expected them to strip what I did down but they
obviously hadn't even stuck a grease gun on the front suspension?

I also found the sealed bearings in the steering upright / kingpin
were so stiff the chances are they were sliding on the pin (and so
wearing it out) and that wheel bearing was also noisy.

So, tomorrow morning I hope to do the other side and anything else I
can strip / clean / check / lube and make notes of any bearings I find
questionable, ready to replace if Mum likes it and decides to keep it.

Two things that we don't mind there. Assuming nothing has worn because
the wrong stuff was moving ... 1) I can be happy it's all as it should
be and 2) I will have a better understanding how it all works, should
I need to look at any of it in the future.

I have already got the (Curtis) battery charger as that had stopped
working. Upon inspection I found the main 6.3A mains input fuse has
blown and there was the signs of a bit of a flashover near one of the
main SMPSU IC's.

https://ibb.co/mRYmM8w

I have some new (wire in) fuses but I might try the old 60W 240V lamp
across it first? The IC's are £10 for 5 from China, if I bother to go
that far.

There is a bit of corrosion inside the case so I think water got in
there somehow (they kept the scooter in one of those rigid plastic
mini cabin things, along with an external double mains socket).

I'm not particularly bothered if it is dead as I may well replace it
with a pair of Optimate 2's and charge both batteries individually via
an extra port in any case.

So, I was wondering if anyone here has, had or maintains a Regatta
mobility scooter and what you thought of them please?

Cheers, T i m

There are 2 basic choices.
4 wheels good, 3 or 5 wheels a total hazard.
8mph legally restricted to some users only, able to go on road. 4mph type unrestricted, not road usable.


NT

On Tue, 04 Aug 2020 09:33:09 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Tue, 04 Aug 2020 00:47:16 +0100, T i m wrote:

Ok, I wouldn't have expected them to strip what I did down but they
obviously hadn't even stuck a grease gun on the front suspension?

Seems odd that there is no grease at all in the suspension not even a
smear here or there from initial manufacture.

Indeed.

I'd try an find a
sevice manual to see if that model/year is supposed to be greased or
if they switched to sealed bearings but left the nipple.

I've stripped and clean both sides now and they are just plain bushes
Dave.

Either that
and it's been stripped before and who ever did that didn't finish the
job properly.

https://ibb.co/S5y9k0Y
https://ibb.co/0s8PrP4
https://ibb.co/mvKgY9F

A possibility ... still, not good workmanship eh. ;-(

I also had to know the nsr wheel off from across the width of the
buggy with a length of timber and a hammer as it was seized on. It
looks like the osr had also been seized on but knocked off by a rock
or directly by a steel hammer(judging by the damage done to the inside
of the rim). ;-(

Don't know how "user friendly" Regatta are. As this is a mobilty
scooter I wouldn't be surised if they refuse to talk to you and
inisist that you take it to one of their "certified service depots".

Yup, been there before with TGA.

I have already got the (Curtis) battery charger as that had stopped
working. Upon inspection I found the main 6.3A mains input fuse has
blown and there was the signs of a bit of a flashover near one of the
main SMPSU IC's.

https://ibb.co/mRYmM8w

Looks like the magic smoke got out from pins 5 & 6 of that chip and
condensed on the board towards D14. I'd expect something else to have
gone phut first to then take out that chip.

Whilst you may well be right, couldn't have been water on the board
(that started it)?

Chopper transistors,
mains side smoothing capacitors? Remember that a mains SMPSU has some
nasty voltages flying about inside it.

Yeah, thanks for the warning. If it's not the fuse, that IC or
anything 'obvious' (if there is such a thing around SMPSU's), I'll go
for another solution.

Cheers, T i m

On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 01:50:20 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

snip

There are 2 basic choices.
4 wheels good, 3 or 5 wheels a total hazard.

Ironically, we generally use 3 when we want stability on non flat
ground ... tripod, milking stool etc. With this trike, most of the
weight is over the two rear wheels so I can't think of a time where
stability has been an issue.

8mph legally restricted to some users only, able to go on road. 4mph type unrestricted, not road usable.

Yes, both have the tortoise and the hare speed settings and his one
has full indicators / hazard flashers, front light and rear lights
etc. And a hooter and reversing bleeper. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 08:56:17 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
wrote:

On Tue, 04 Aug 2020 00:47:16 +0100, T i m wrote:

I later mentioned what I had found to my mate and he was particularly
annoyed that he had paid another 60 quid (on top of the s/h purchase
price of £600 in a mobility shop) for a 'full service'?

Long experience has taught me to save my money and do it myself.

Unless it requires tools or tech that I can't get access to, then I
agree 100%.

Whenever I get a new (to me) machine I generally go right over it,
checking, cleaning a lubing and in most cases, I don't have any issues
with it from then on. Leave stuff unchecked (like these suspension
components) and who knows when they may have worn out of seized etc.

Cheers, T i m

Fuses do not blow for no reason, so be careful shove a bulb in series with
it when you put it on!
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 04 Aug 2020 09:33:09 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Tue, 04 Aug 2020 00:47:16 +0100, T i m wrote:

Ok, I wouldn't have expected them to strip what I did down but they
obviously hadn't even stuck a grease gun on the front suspension?

Seems odd that there is no grease at all in the suspension not even a
smear here or there from initial manufacture.

Indeed.

I'd try an find a
sevice manual to see if that model/year is supposed to be greased or
if they switched to sealed bearings but left the nipple.

I've stripped and clean both sides now and they are just plain bushes
Dave.

Either that
and it's been stripped before and who ever did that didn't finish the
job properly.

https://ibb.co/S5y9k0Y
https://ibb.co/0s8PrP4
https://ibb.co/mvKgY9F

A possibility ... still, not good workmanship eh. ;-(

I also had to know the nsr wheel off from across the width of the
buggy with a length of timber and a hammer as it was seized on. It
looks like the osr had also been seized on but knocked off by a rock
or directly by a steel hammer(judging by the damage done to the inside
of the rim). ;-(

Don't know how "user friendly" Regatta are. As this is a mobilty
scooter I wouldn't be surised if they refuse to talk to you and
inisist that you take it to one of their "certified service depots".

Yup, been there before with TGA.

I have already got the (Curtis) battery charger as that had stopped
working. Upon inspection I found the main 6.3A mains input fuse has
blown and there was the signs of a bit of a flashover near one of the
main SMPSU IC's.

https://ibb.co/mRYmM8w

Looks like the magic smoke got out from pins 5 & 6 of that chip and
condensed on the board towards D14. I'd expect something else to have
gone phut first to then take out that chip.

Whilst you may well be right, couldn't have been water on the board
(that started it)?

Chopper transistors,
mains side smoothing capacitors? Remember that a mains SMPSU has some
nasty voltages flying about inside it.

Yeah, thanks for the warning. If it's not the fuse, that IC or
anything 'obvious' (if there is such a thing around SMPSU's), I'll go
for another solution.

Cheers, T i m

On Tue, 04 Aug 2020 00:47:16 +0100, T i m wrote:

snip

So, tomorrow morning I hope to do the other side and anything else I
can strip / clean / check / lube and make notes of any bearings I find
questionable, ready to replace if Mum likes it and decides to keep it.

update

So, I did the other side front suspension trailing arm and again, the
only grease in there was what I put in the day before.

One rear (drive) wheel was rusted on, tapped that off with a length of
wood and hammer across / under the buggy with the help of some
penetrating oil.

Puncturesealed the tyres and inflated to 26 psi.

The Mrs rode it round to Mums (1km) and it seemed to run ok. We got
Mum on it on a straight bit of pavement, covered the basic controls
(repeated the 'if you get in an emergency, let go of everything'
instruction) and did a further .5km when it just cut out and the
overload had tripped. It seemed to be running freely, the motor was
fairly warm so we gave it a few minutes and set off again. I did hear
a bit of a light screeching noise (that wasn't there before) at what
felt like motor RPM but we carried on into the park. Again, it did
another .5km or so when it cut out again but this time the motor was
very hot.

I tried to explain to Mum that if it started to feel 'slow' (for any
particular throttle setting), that she shouldn't push on but let me
know, but I don't think she heard, understood or remembered. ;-(

So, we left it for a good hour while the dogs ran about then she rode
it home (ok this time) and the Mrs rode it back here (no screeching
noise this time).

However, I suspect the electric brake is sticking but took the motor
out just to 1) check that was running freely (it was) and 2) check the
brushes (they were 'ok' but will get new ones [1]) and that 3) the
transmission seemed free (it did).

I'll see if I can get the electric brake to bits tomorrow, see if
there is anything that can be freed / etc. I think the micro switch
works as when the brake is in the 'free' position it disables the
throttle.

If it wasn't releasing properly that would sure explain the hot motor
and tripping. ;-(

I think if I had been riding it I would have 'felt' it wasn't rolling
/ running freely.

In spite of those hiccups, Mum seemed very happy on it but we didn't
really try any of the other stuff (getting it into her back garden
down the side alley) because of the issues.

Cheers, T i m

[1] It could probably also do with a least a pair of rear tyres
(deterioration of the sidewalls) but if she goes ahead with it, she
will probably happily get a complete set and because they are split
rims, we can keep one or two of them as spares and carry one and a
tube when going further afield (with some tools / small pump), in case
she does some real damage (rides over a broken bottle etc).

On Tuesday, 4 August 2020 15:14:25 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 08:56:17 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
wrote:

On Tue, 04 Aug 2020 00:47:16 +0100, T i m wrote:

I later mentioned what I had found to my mate and he was particularly
annoyed that he had paid another 60 quid (on top of the s/h purchase
price of £600 in a mobility shop) for a 'full service'?

Long experience has taught me to save my money and do it myself.

Unless it requires tools or tech that I can't get access to, then I
agree 100%.

From what little I've seen I doubt it's ever worth contacting a mobility dealer. Every other option will be much cheaper & usually better.


NT

On Tue, 04 Aug 2020 22:25:28 +0100, T i m wrote:

snip

However, I suspect the electric brake is sticking but took the motor
out just to 1) check that was running freely (it was) and 2) check the
brushes (they were 'ok' but will get new ones [1]) and that 3) the
transmission seemed free (it did).

I'll see if I can get the electric brake to bits tomorrow, see if
there is anything that can be freed / etc. I think the micro switch
works as when the brake is in the 'free' position it disables the
throttle.

snip

I actually did so last night and I think that was the problem but
haven't worked out how / why yet?

When you release the outer friction plate (3 small Allen screws on
spacers) and you then find the friction plate, the inner friction
plate (so like a conventional flywheel, friction plate, pressure
plate) and then the coil and possibly a strong permanent magnet.

The mechanical override arm appears to release the 'pressure' /
'sandwich' on the friction plate (this must 'fail safe' (= brake on))
so in the non-override position it makes sense the brake is enabled.
However, if you rotate the override to what should be the released
position it doesn't release?

Now the strange thing is that all 3 screws were loose, and I wondered
if someone has loosened them to give a bit of slack and allow it to
sorta work? With them tight and the brake in the mechanically released
position it feels solid. Slacken all 3 screws a couple of turns and
the friction disk is free again?

https://ibb.co/LrkCbXK
https://ibb.co/1rn14Z2
https://ibb.co/DLr4Gyf

I'm not sure if the main actuator is spring loaded or held together by
a magnet and turning the screw in the middle doesn't do anything (it
remains tight so whatever it's going into is also going round)?

I'll try it with 12V on it later to see what moves and by how much.

On the grounds I have little to lose at this point, I'm wondering if I
could add some small washers to the tubular spacers (the screws are
long enough) as that might be easier than skimming the friction plate
thinner on the lathe?

Cheers, T i m

Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
Fuses do not blow for no reason, so be careful shove a bulb in series with
it when you put it on!
Brian

Fuses *do* blow for no reason.

Electrical loads have transient current flow level
and steady state current flow level. There is more
to selecting a fuse, than "just meeting steady state".

https://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/a..._fuseology.pdf

"I2t [I*I*T] is an expression of the available thermal energy resulting
from current flow. With regard to fuses, the term is usually
expressed as melting, arcing, and total clearing I2t. The units
for I2t are expressed in ampere-squared-seconds [A2s]."

During the startup transient, the I2t can be quite large.

Slo-Blo fuses are typically used when you want a rugged response.

On a motorized appliance, all that adding a light bulb will
do, is cause the bulb to come on full brilliance, while
the motor remains stalled (shaft stall equals high current state).

I would start by "ohming" the load, to see if it reads
a low number of ohms, or see whether it reads as a dead short.
Due to semiconductors being present in the circuit, it
may not be possible to get "honest" readings, depending
on where you're probing. You could pull the motor connector
and ohm the motor - but then that doesn't tell you anything
about an upstream PWM thing (or whatever form the control
might take). With switching semiconductors, some of those will
fail in dead short state, and it ends up burning other,
harder-to-replace, analog components (powdered core inductor,
maybe a capacitor, the MOSFET itself burned to a crisp). Ohming
that section might not tell you anything, whereas a visual inspection
may already spot incinerated devices and a burnt smell.

I've had one semiconductor, where the failure
was violent enough, the silicon die inside the device
was blown off its anvil. And the tell-tale sign was
a "clink" noise when the ON switch was pushed. That
was the silicon die bouncing around inside the
packaging. I never applied an ohmmeter to the
device after removal - just shaking it and hearing
something flopping around inside was enough.

I don't have an answer for every DIY circuit repair
you attempt, but I can tell you that the light bulb
method may not give a meaningful result. If there
is a semiconductor control in the way, then behaviors
can be quite non-linear. In the old days, you could
pull some of the devices and put them on a curve tracer,
but curve tracers were almost "out-of-style" when I
got my first job after university. Later jobs, there
just wasn't one of those on the premises. I think I've
run the curve tracer, only once or twice in the lab.
(You can get a shock off a curve tracer, be careful
to not become part of the circuit.)

Paul

On Wednesday, 5 August 2020 10:38:04 UTC+1, Paul wrote:
Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:

Fuses do not blow for no reason, so be careful shove a bulb in series with
it when you put it on!
Brian

Fuses *do* blow for no reason.

Brian's a great teacher - invert everything he says and you can learnt lots.


NT

T i m wrote:


I think if I had been riding it I would have 'felt' it wasn't rolling
/ running freely.

Is there any way to monitor "load amps" ?

That might give some indication of trouble.

https://www.amazon.com/bayite-Digita.../dp/B01DDQM6Z4

"Mine will not calibrate perfectly either, it reads 0.2 amps with no current.
I use it to measure my alternator output on my boat. As long as you need to
see the difference between 30 and 50 amps and not 31 and 31.1, this can work
for you. Also note it will show a decimal place at the far right for
"reverse" flow, so make sure you have it turned the way you want it.
EDIT: I have just come back from a 4 day trip and found this very useful
to monitor alternator output. I also noted it drifts a lot - it seems to
wander up to 0.5-0.8 amps at 0 actual current and wander back down to 0.2."

That meter runs off as little as 5V, and monitors
DC loads up to 100 amperes, using a non-contact
sensor. That means not placing anything in
a high current path you're not comfortable with.
Just monitoring the battery lead, would show the
state of the whole thing.

That one does not use "jaws", so a single
conductor must be shoved through the hole.
Make sure the cabling+connector will fit through the
aperture (19mm in the example) before buying.
The sensor couples magnetic flux into the
Hall chip next to the connector on the sensor.
The larger the diameter of the sensor, the more
magnetic material needed inside.

Regular Hall-based meters for this purpose, have sensors
with a break in the material, giving a "jaws" design.
The two halves of the magnetic material must
meet properly for best results. A design without
jaws, it's performance is that much more certain,
as the magnetic circuit is fixed from a mechanical
perspective. You won't need to jiggle it.

Circuits like that, the zero on them isn't all that
good. The circuit can drift a bit. But we're not measuring
fundamental physics constants here, so such errors
are not an issue.

And you want the meter range, to cover the thing to be
measured. If the range of currents always stayed below
10A, then a 100A version might be "set too high". Using
your knowledge of battery amp-hours, and how far you can
go on one charge, might give you an idea on the ballpark
currents involved. And if the load happens to draw
100A when first moving, you can't damage that
meter on overrange. Unlike an analog meter, there's
no meter needle to "bend" if whacked overscale.

It needs a source of DC power to operate the meter, and
measures DC amperes using the sensor.

Paul

On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 03:19:44 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Wednesday, 5 August 2020 10:38:04 UTC+1, Paul wrote:
Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:

Fuses do not blow for no reason, so be careful shove a bulb in series with
it when you put it on!
Brian

Fuses *do* blow for no reason.

Brian's a great teacher - invert everything he says and you can learnt lots.


Except in this case it's across the fuse on the input of a SMPSU and I
think good advice and fairly common practice (especially with the
charger off load)?

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 05 Aug 2020 06:55:12 -0400, Paul
wrote:

T i m wrote:


I think if I had been riding it I would have 'felt' it wasn't rolling
/ running freely.

Is there any way to monitor "load amps" ?

Yea ... and funnily something I believe we have already done on that
particular buggy (with a clip on ammeter), before I had an interest in
the buggy and for / with it's previous owner.

snip good stuff that I am familiar stuff for brevity

I was designing 'occupancy detection' on a semi-automate model railway
layout by putting a test pulse out on each of the segments of the
layout, with the PWM signal fed through a Hall effect sensor and a
section would be considered as occupied by reading more than 0 Amps.
;-)

So, it's possible this electromagnetic clutch-brake has been marginal
for some time and was pushed past the point of functionality
yesterday.

The fact that the three screws that hold the clutch-brake together
were all lose suggest someone may have done that to allow some 'slack'
in the assembly.

The friction disk smells like Bakelite and given it won't ever release
mechanically (manual override) and that mech is working, I'm wondering
if the friction disk may have swollen due to damp or somesuch?

Bottom line, I can either try to skim the disk (might be able to mount
it on the lathe) or space the mech out slightly so that in the
manually 'opened' position the disk floats freely (even if it doesn't
when it should be electrically activated).

Cheers, T i m

On 05/08/2020 13:11, T i m wrote:
Bottom line ...

My Mum had a mobility scooter... just a thought in case you have not
considered it, what happens if it packs up when she's out on her own, if
she will be going out on her own? You've done far more than most owners
to it, and know your way around it, however it needs to be 100%
reliable, or she needs a way of getting help, fast, if it stops.

On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 18:24:58 +0100, Chris Bacon
wrote:

On 05/08/2020 13:11, T i m wrote:
Bottom line ...

My Mum had a mobility scooter... just a thought in case you have not
considered it, what happens if it packs up when she's out on her own,

That is a good question Chris and one I had considered ...

if
she will be going out on her own?

Another good question. One of the things I have learned about this
Regatta scooter compared with a neighbours Shoprider is that you can't
decouple the drive from the wheels. All the 'override' lever does is
manually releases the motor brake so if it had an electrical failure
you can push it but it doesn't freewheel very well.

On the Shoprider you could disconnect the drivetrain from the axle
with a lever, overcoming any motor / electric-brake problems. This
means that it would be 'easier' for a good Samaritan to get her home
[1]. ;-)

You've done far more than most owners
to it, and know your way around it, however it needs to be 100%
reliable, or she needs a way of getting help, fast, if it stops.

Agreed, and that brings us to your first questions.

If Mum was on her own with it (and that's a big if atm), she would
only be local and near a road, meaning we could get to her. We would
arrange to stay local etc.

The first time the Mrs accompanied a elderly neighbour out on her
Shoprider it broke down, I was called (and diagnosed water in the
speed-controller[2]) and was able to get them and the scooter in the
Meriva and back to her home.

I feel I could do the same with this one as it is a similar size, all
be it that I would probably have to take the batteries out first, if I
was to lift it in on my own.

If Mum was to go further afield, around our larger parks, the chances
are we would be with her and we have the number of the Parks Patrols
and Rangers who I'm sure would help if the scooter became sufficiently
disabled that we couldn't push / pull it [3]. About the only thing
that might do that (seeing how substantially built the chassis /
rolling gear are (up to 25st)), is this motor brake seizing up and (as
you say) I would now be able to remove it fairly quickly and with some
basic tools (probably even just the Leatherman that is my daily
carry).

With the worst case risk in mind, I'm not sure how much more reliable
a new one might be?

I was looking after the web-logging and photo uploads for one of our
BMW motorcade club members who took herself solo round-the-world.

She could have bought a new bike but chose to go on her own 20 year
old one because it was 'known' to her and much less complicated than
the latest offerings. This meant that if it did need maintenance, it
was more easily found (around the world) by anyone with sufficient
tools, no need for diagnostic gear etc.

I note that some of the newer mobility scooters are also 'digital'
with the added diagnostic / repair issues that might bring, so if I
was to trust my Mum on something I think I'd possibly prefer something
I stood a chance of repairing outside of warranty?

All things to further consider though (including the idea of some sort
of emergency 'get you home' system we could switch to in the event of
the std electronics failing).

Cheers, T i m

[1] We have lived in the area most our lives (so that's 90 years for
my Mum) and she and Dad were often out in the community so she knows
an awful lot of people. ;-)

[2] It turned out water was running a torturous path past the rain
cover and into the speed controller that was mounted upside down,
meaning the 'lid' filled up with water, eventually splashing onto the
electronics when they went over the wrong bump. After recovering them
I removed it, stripped it down, dried it off, sprayed it with WD40 and
left it out to dry in her conservatory for a few days before
re-assembling. 'Luckily' it worked fine afterwards. ;-)

[3] Mum can walk a reasonable distance (it's feet problems rather than
heart, lungs or balance), it's just that she would pay for it when she
got home and the next day. ;-(

On 05/08/2020 22:19, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 18:24:58 +0100, Chris Bacon
wrote:
My Mum had a mobility scooter... just a thought in case you have not
considered it, what happens if it packs up when she's out on her own,

That is a good question Chris and one I had considered ...

Excellent. The whole thing about looking after our Aged Ps is fraught
with difficulty.

At least the scooter you're looking at has sufficient ground clearence
not to get stuck on a pebble (!), or if a wheel goes off the path and
onto the grass, which the Pride Go-Go "Elite Traveller 4" thing my mum
had could do. Mind you, the "disconnect drive" feature had a handy
safety feature that if it was disconnected, the drive would brake if
freewheel speed got above "brisk walk", and it was handy to be easily
dismantlable by means of 1 lever to stick into a car.

I had thought about attaching a phone-monitored GPS tracker or even "spy
tracker" to the scooter. Not for spying, of course, but for (my!) "panic
mode"!

On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 23:14:00 +0100, Chris Bacon
wrote:

On 05/08/2020 22:19, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 18:24:58 +0100, Chris Bacon
wrote:
My Mum had a mobility scooter... just a thought in case you have not
considered it, what happens if it packs up when she's out on her own,

That is a good question Chris and one I had considered ...

Excellent. The whole thing about looking after our Aged Ps is fraught
with difficulty.

There are moments. Like when my sister rings saying she can't get hold
of Mum (she's got a panic button and we the first responders on the
list) so it's us (who didn't choose to move away from the area) that
have to track her down ... gone round her friends to play Rummykub and
forgot to tell anyone or take her mobile with her. ;-(

Or we get a call from the Careline saying she has pressed the button
but isn't responding to the caller base ... so we rush round and she's
in the garden, under the sunshade happily potting up some plants but
with her hearing aids out and the panic fob on the chair cushion ...
;-(

But hey, better be safe etc ... ;-)

At least the scooter you're looking at has sufficient ground clearence
not to get stuck on a pebble (!),

That was part of the appeal of this one over the TGA Ultralite. Whilst
it performed very well on hard paths, compact stony towpaths and dry
/ short grass, because it was front wheel drive, with most of the
weight over the rear wheels and fairly narrow tyres, you could get a
bit of wheel spin on the slippery bits.

or if a wheel goes off the path and
onto the grass, which the Pride Go-Go "Elite Traveller 4" thing my mum
had could do.

A quick look at the spec for your mums scoot shows it as ~50cm wide
whereas the Regatta is 67. Given that the sitting position is similar
on most of them, that extra track can make a big difference.

Mind you, the "disconnect drive" feature had a handy
safety feature that if it was disconnected, the drive would brake if
freewheel speed got above "brisk walk",

Oh. Saves having a recoiling dog lead on it as we did when daughter
got her first Motorcrosser. ;-)

and it was handy to be easily
dismantlable by means of 1 lever to stick into a car.

And that's part of the compromise you generally have to accept with
something so compact.

I had thought about attaching a phone-monitored GPS tracker or even "spy
tracker" to the scooter. Not for spying, of course, but for (my!) "panic
mode"!

The thing is, everything is fine till it isn't, like when you daughter
does a 'You've been framed', full throttle though a hedge / shed (she
never did btw) or yer Mum hits the throttle thinking it's a brake and
drives straight into the road (luckily I was ready for her) where
those sorts of things are no longer you being over cautious.

I've tested this electric brake on 24V and it appears it's lost it's
'ooompf'. The coil resistance is around 45 ohms that from the various
Youtube videos looks to be right but it just doesn't seem able to
create enough magnetism to draw the base plate in (it looks like it
should come in with a 'snap').

I'm tempted to buy one in from the Far east for £29 + £15 p&p but
knowing my luck, will get stuck for the duty collection (8 quid for 2
quid duty etc). Or you can find identical second hand ones for ~£65?

*If*, the friction plate was caused to swell by say moisture and then
it slowly started to drag till it overheated and destroyed itself ...
then that's something I can keep an eye on if we get a s/h
replacement. If they just get weak over time, drag and then overheat,
it might not be so easy to keep an eye on, especially if I'm not
riding it myself at the time (as I'm sure I would 'sense' it not
running as freely for any particular throttle position or pulling up
quicker than it should.

Cheers, T i m

On Wednesday, 5 August 2020 13:11:56 UTC+1, T i m wrote:

So, it's possible this electromagnetic clutch-brake has been marginal
for some time and was pushed past the point of functionality
yesterday.

The fact that the three screws that hold the clutch-brake together
were all lose suggest someone may have done that to allow some 'slack'
in the assembly.

The friction disk smells like Bakelite and given it won't ever release
mechanically (manual override) and that mech is working, I'm wondering
if the friction disk may have swollen due to damp or somesuch?

Bottom line, I can either try to skim the disk (might be able to mount
it on the lathe) or space the mech out slightly so that in the
manually 'opened' position the disk floats freely (even if it doesn't
when it should be electrically activated).

Cheers, T i m

are they not cheaply available used on ebay?

On Wednesday, 5 August 2020 18:25:02 UTC+1, Chris Bacon wrote:
On 05/08/2020 13:11, T i m wrote:
Bottom line ...

My Mum had a mobility scooter... just a thought in case you have not
considered it, what happens if it packs up when she's out on her own, if
she will be going out on her own? You've done far more than most owners
to it, and know your way around it, however it needs to be 100%
reliable, or she needs a way of getting help, fast, if it stops.

Phone for a taxi. For an 8mph buggy you'd need a van & a driver willing to load it.


NT

On Wednesday, 5 August 2020 23:14:06 UTC+1, Chris Bacon wrote:
On 05/08/2020 22:19, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 18:24:58 +0100, Chris Bacon
wrote:

At least the scooter you're looking at has sufficient ground clearence
not to get stuck on a pebble (!), or if a wheel goes off the path and
onto the grass, which the Pride Go-Go "Elite Traveller 4" thing my mum
had could do. Mind you, the "disconnect drive" feature had a handy
safety feature that if it was disconnected, the drive would brake if
freewheel speed got above "brisk walk", and it was handy to be easily
dismantlable by means of 1 lever to stick into a car.

I always wondered what would happen with those machines if an output transistor failed. Wouldn't it suddenly apply full power uncontrollably?


NT

On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 17:29:20 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Wednesday, 5 August 2020 23:14:06 UTC+1, Chris Bacon wrote:
On 05/08/2020 22:19, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 18:24:58 +0100, Chris Bacon
wrote:

At least the scooter you're looking at has sufficient ground clearence
not to get stuck on a pebble (!), or if a wheel goes off the path and
onto the grass, which the Pride Go-Go "Elite Traveller 4" thing my mum
had could do. Mind you, the "disconnect drive" feature had a handy
safety feature that if it was disconnected, the drive would brake if
freewheel speed got above "brisk walk", and it was handy to be easily
dismantlable by means of 1 lever to stick into a car.

I always wondered what would happen with those machines if an output transistor failed. Wouldn't it suddenly apply full power uncontrollably?

I wondered the same and there is no emergency cuttoff button (on the
ones I've played with anyway).

I guess the idea is that with a top speed of 8mph you aren't going to
go *too* fast but even that to a dead stop wouldn't be good for many
(older especially) people?

It's possible the 'ignition switch' drives another transistor or power
relay?

One thing that did surprise me when the Mrs first rode the scooter
round to Mums as it seems that the single (rear) brake isn't
interlocked with the throttle and you *can* have the throttle on and
the rear brake. ;-( rolls eyes

Now, there could be a reason it isn't ... like what if the brake did
cut out the throttle, you came to a halt with the throttle sill on
full and then you released the brake? You would have to design it so
that it had to see the throttle back to zero before it enabled power
again?

Some motorbikes / cars won't start unless you have you foot / hand
operating one of the controls and on some motorbikes they will cut the
ignition as soon as you try to take the gear out of neutral and still
have the side stand down.

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 17:25:22 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Wednesday, 5 August 2020 18:25:02 UTC+1, Chris Bacon wrote:
On 05/08/2020 13:11, T i m wrote:
Bottom line ...

My Mum had a mobility scooter... just a thought in case you have not
considered it, what happens if it packs up when she's out on her own, if
she will be going out on her own? You've done far more than most owners
to it, and know your way around it, however it needs to be 100%
reliable, or she needs a way of getting help, fast, if it stops.

Phone for a taxi.

Not sure how much help that would be if the nearest road was over 1/2
mile away (if you are in a big park area) and the person couldn't walk
that far? [1]

For an 8mph buggy you'd need a van & a driver willing to load it.

Or a Son driving what was his (/Dads) Meriva. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[1] Small trailer or hang a lightweight folding wheelchair on the
back. Actually, I think my Mum could handle an electric microscooter!

On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 17:24:15 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
snip

Bottom line, I can either try to skim the disk (might be able to mount
it on the lathe) or space the mech out slightly so that in the
manually 'opened' position the disk floats freely (even if it doesn't
when it should be electrically activated).


are they not cheaply available used on ebay?

Possibly, depending on how you see 'cheaply'.

If it had failed at 13 months on a 3 grand buggy then £100 or even
£300 for a new one (these *******s are a ripoff) could be considered
'cheap'.

If you only paid £200 for the buggy then even £65 for a second hand
one is quite expensive?

Now, the good thing is that I believe it will run without the brake
fitted (it will need to be in the loom because it kills the throttle
if the override lever (microswitch) is actuated and the brake actuator
coil (45 ohms) out of circuit, but I don't think it can detect it's
not mechanically installed) so we (not Mum) can give it a run (many
times round the block) to check all is well again before sourcing a
replacement.

The is a chance you could buy a complete damaged scooter privately for
less than the cost of the part. The st//dealers tend to break them and
sell them on eBay.

I have seen this model complete and running sold on eBay for ~£400 so
if we get a known working one for less than that I guess we could
count that as a result?

Cheers, T i m

On Thursday, 6 August 2020 09:28:20 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 17:24:15 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:
snip

Bottom line, I can either try to skim the disk (might be able to mount
it on the lathe) or space the mech out slightly so that in the
manually 'opened' position the disk floats freely (even if it doesn't
when it should be electrically activated).


are they not cheaply available used on ebay?

Possibly, depending on how you see 'cheaply'.

If it had failed at 13 months on a 3 grand buggy then �100 or even
�300 for a new one (these *******s are a ripoff) could be considered
'cheap'.

If you only paid �200 for the buggy then even �65 for a second hand
one is quite expensive?

Now, the good thing is that I believe it will run without the brake
fitted (it will need to be in the loom because it kills the throttle
if the override lever (microswitch) is actuated and the brake actuator
coil (45 ohms) out of circuit, but I don't think it can detect it's
not mechanically installed) so we (not Mum) can give it a run (many
times round the block) to check all is well again before sourcing a
replacement.

The is a chance you could buy a complete damaged scooter privately for
less than the cost of the part. The st//dealers tend to break them and
sell them on eBay.

I have seen this model complete and running sold on eBay for ~�400 so
if we get a known working one for less than that I guess we could
count that as a result?

Cheers, T i m

Depends what your time's worth.

Re brakes, yes they can work without a brake. But it would be a concern to operate one like that outside of testing it somewhere safe.

From the very few I've seen it seems mob scooters have all sorts of design oddities. Steering that's not Ackermann, brakes that can be deactivated by the user with no marking, no warning and no obvious effect on operation, that insane 5 wheel setup etc. Reminds me of the somewhat famous 1951 Hoffmann car.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y16ObVRvgOE
and he doesn't even do its terribleness justice.


NT

On Thu, 6 Aug 2020 02:39:22 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Thursday, 6 August 2020 09:28:20 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 17:24:15 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:
snip

Bottom line, I can either try to skim the disk (might be able to mount
it on the lathe) or space the mech out slightly so that in the
manually 'opened' position the disk floats freely (even if it doesn't
when it should be electrically activated).


are they not cheaply available used on ebay?

Possibly, depending on how you see 'cheaply'.

If it had failed at 13 months on a 3 grand buggy then ?100 or even
?300 for a new one (these *******s are a ripoff) could be considered
'cheap'.

If you only paid ?200 for the buggy then even ?65 for a second hand
one is quite expensive?

Now, the good thing is that I believe it will run without the brake
fitted (it will need to be in the loom because it kills the throttle
if the override lever (microswitch) is actuated and the brake actuator
coil (45 ohms) out of circuit, but I don't think it can detect it's
not mechanically installed) so we (not Mum) can give it a run (many
times round the block) to check all is well again before sourcing a
replacement.

The is a chance you could buy a complete damaged scooter privately for
less than the cost of the part. The st//dealers tend to break them and
sell them on eBay.

I have seen this model complete and running sold on eBay for ~?400 so
if we get a known working one for less than that I guess we could
count that as a result?


Depends what your time's worth.

Well in cases like this its more a function of S&G's and learning
about the workings of Mobility Scooters. Also batteries and
electronics so it's more of a hobby than a chore.

Re brakes, yes they can work without a brake.

An 'automatic electric brake', it will still have an mechanical brake
etc.

But it would be a concern to operate one like that outside of testing it somewhere safe.

Quite (given the above). It will be interesting to see how much
natural overrun braking there is or if there is an electrical brake
(shorting the motor rather than an electro-mechanical-physical brake).

From the very few I've seen it seems mob scooters have all sorts of design oddities.

Oh indeed.

Steering that's not Ackermann, brakes that can be deactivated by the user with no marking, no warning and no obvious effect on operation, that insane 5 wheel setup etc.

;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_RcLYGCPKc

Reminds me of the somewhat famous 1951 Hoffmann car.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y16ObVRvgOE
and he doesn't even do its terribleness justice.

Oooerr!

Initially I thought it might be like my Messerschmitt KR200 but then I
saw it was *nothing* like that (wheelbase longer than the track, front
wheel steering, sliding windows, easy to get in and out of etc).

That Hoffmann looks like it was 'designed' by Crazy Jim, not wanting
to conform to any standards and not realising how undesirable that is?

Cheers, T i m

On Thursday, 6 August 2020 12:13:11 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 6 Aug 2020 02:39:22 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:
On Thursday, 6 August 2020 09:28:20 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 17:24:15 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:
snip

Bottom line, I can either try to skim the disk (might be able to mount
it on the lathe) or space the mech out slightly so that in the
manually 'opened' position the disk floats freely (even if it doesn't
when it should be electrically activated).


are they not cheaply available used on ebay?

Possibly, depending on how you see 'cheaply'.

If it had failed at 13 months on a 3 grand buggy then ?100 or even
?300 for a new one (these *******s are a ripoff) could be considered
'cheap'.

If you only paid ?200 for the buggy then even ?65 for a second hand
one is quite expensive?

Now, the good thing is that I believe it will run without the brake
fitted (it will need to be in the loom because it kills the throttle
if the override lever (microswitch) is actuated and the brake actuator
coil (45 ohms) out of circuit, but I don't think it can detect it's
not mechanically installed) so we (not Mum) can give it a run (many
times round the block) to check all is well again before sourcing a
replacement.

The is a chance you could buy a complete damaged scooter privately for
less than the cost of the part. The st//dealers tend to break them and
sell them on eBay.

I have seen this model complete and running sold on eBay for ~?400 so
if we get a known working one for less than that I guess we could
count that as a result?


Depends what your time's worth.

Well in cases like this its more a function of S&G's and learning
about the workings of Mobility Scooters. Also batteries and
electronics so it's more of a hobby than a chore.

Re brakes, yes they can work without a brake.

An 'automatic electric brake', it will still have an mechanical brake
etc.

But it would be a concern to operate one like that outside of testing it somewhere safe.

Quite (given the above). It will be interesting to see how much
natural overrun braking there is or if there is an electrical brake
(shorting the motor rather than an electro-mechanical-physical brake).

From the very few I've seen it seems mob scooters have all sorts of design oddities.

Oh indeed.

Steering that's not Ackermann, brakes that can be deactivated by the user with no marking, no warning and no obvious effect on operation, that insane 5 wheel setup etc.

;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_RcLYGCPKc

Reminds me of the somewhat famous 1951 Hoffmann car.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y16ObVRvgOE
and he doesn't even do its terribleness justice.

Oooerr!

Initially I thought it might be like my Messerschmitt KR200 but then I
saw it was *nothing* like that (wheelbase longer than the track, front
wheel steering, sliding windows, easy to get in and out of etc).

That Hoffmann looks like it was 'designed' by Crazy Jim, not wanting
to conform to any standards and not realising how undesirable that is?

Cheers, T i m

The kabinenroller was one of the best designed microcars. The Hoffmann is truly the worst ever found. What Jason doesn't address there is the steering crisis - I won't call it a problem. Turning the steering wheel moves the car sideways as you saw on the vid. What this means is that once you go full lock, it becomes physically impossible to turn the steering wheel back to straight, centripetal force from cornering keeps it locked. So in real world driving the thing is strongly prone to going out of control on corners. I suspect after a couple of drives it was never used again.


NT

On Thu, 6 Aug 2020 09:02:04 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

snip

Initially I thought it might be like my Messerschmitt KR200 but then I
saw it was *nothing* like that (wheelbase longer than the track, front
wheel steering, sliding windows, easy to get in and out of etc).

That Hoffmann looks like it was 'designed' by Crazy Jim, not wanting
to conform to any standards and not realising how undesirable that is?


The kabinenroller was one of the best designed microcars.

It was (is) pretty good. At least if you drove to the end the garage
you could still get out of it, unlike many 'other' microcars of the
time. ;-)

The Hoffmann is truly the worst ever found. What Jason doesn't address there is the steering crisis - I won't call it a problem. Turning the steering wheel moves the car sideways as you saw on the vid. What this means is that once you go full lock, it becomes physically impossible to turn the steering wheel back to straight, centripetal force from cornering keeps it locked.

No, I got that from the video!

So in real world driving the thing is strongly prone to going out of control on corners. I suspect after a couple of drives it was never used again.

I can see it 'flopped' onto one lock or another, horrible. ;-(

Cheers, T i m

On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 01:38:24 +0100, williamwright
wrote:

On 04/08/2020 00:47, T i m wrote:

She did ride Dads lightweight / take-down trike but when coming to a
halt on the down-amp at a pedestrian crossing, rather than just
letting go of the throttle bar her ancient cycle riding muscle memory
kicked in and she pulled what she for that second thought was the
front brake. ;-(

There's a very simple thing to drill into scooter riders: "LET GO!" In
other words, if it's all going wrong, release your grip and lift your
hands off the controls. The scooter will stop dead.

What was interesting with tonight's electric-brake-less test run was
how much motor braking it's got, making me think the only role the
electromagnetic brake provides is a parking brake?

I couldn't tell if the overrun braking was just because the
transmission was spinning the motor or that there was some motor
braking (by shorting it out when in 'neutral').

On a footbridge with ramp, the scooter would freewheel down at about
1mph, so if mum got off it and wasn't careful, it could run (well,
'stroll) away. At least I know we can carry on safely testing it in
the meantime. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 06/08/2020 22:47, T i m wrote:

There's a very simple thing to drill into scooter riders: "LET GO!" In
other words, if it's all going wrong, release your grip and lift your
hands off the controls. The scooter will stop dead.

What was interesting with tonight's electric-brake-less test run was
how much motor braking it's got, making me think the only role the
electromagnetic brake provides is a parking brake?

All scooters should stop dead when you let go of the controls. No over run.

Bill

On 05/08/2020 00:03, wrote:


From what little I've seen I doubt it's ever worth contacting a mobility dealer. Every other option will be much cheaper & usually better.

Good ones are few and far between.

Bill

On Fri, 7 Aug 2020 03:05:21 +0100, williamwright
wrote:

On 06/08/2020 22:47, T i m wrote:

There's a very simple thing to drill into scooter riders: "LET GO!" In
other words, if it's all going wrong, release your grip and lift your
hands off the controls. The scooter will stop dead.

What was interesting with tonight's electric-brake-less test run was
how much motor braking it's got, making me think the only role the
electromagnetic brake provides is a parking brake?

All scooters should stop dead when you let go of the controls. No over run.

I guess you don't actually mean 'stop dead' Bill as that's likely to
give the rider quite a shock (like riding into a brick wall) or lock
the braked wheel(s)[1] up so it must be a level of 'rapid
deceleration' of some sort?

So, if a 135kg passenger on a 100kg scooter (Regatta Mercury with 21st
rider) so over 1/4 of a tonne total) is running at 8mph on a flat hard
surface, how far do you think most scooters might travel, 1m, .5m,
..25m or do you really mean 0m? What about on grass / gravel?

In the case of the TGA Ultralight (trike) the driven wheel is the
single at the front and so that's the one that would be braked. ;-(

I don't know if the electromagnetic brakes have a level of 'slip' so
that they don't *instantly* lock the motor as I'm not sure doing so
would be good for the brake, motor or transmission ... but if it
brought it to a 'rapid halt', that would result in much more actual
braking at the wheels because of the gearing (like a transmission
brake on the propshaft of a 4X4).

It would make sense that it did slip to some level as that would bring
the scooter to a 'rapid' but not (attempt to bring it to an) instant
halt.

I will be interested to do the experiment when we get the replacement
brake. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Fri, 7 Aug 2020 03:08:44 +0100, williamwright
wrote:

On 05/08/2020 00:03, wrote:


From what little I've seen I doubt it's ever worth contacting a mobility dealer. Every other option will be much cheaper & usually better.

Good ones are few and far between.

And because they are associated with 'medical' (and I don't think you
can even say 'low volumes' these days, all be it may not be 'mass
production'), they seem expensive, as are the spares (therefore),
even second hand ones.

It's not because the parts are expensive, it's because they can and
they know in many cases the people rely on these things for their
freedom and will pay?

You can see how fast the depreciate to get an idea of their true
value.

A pair of batteries cost £200, £200 for motor and transaxle and
wheels, a speed controller maybe £100, seat £50, another £100 for all
the ancillaries (switches, lights, knobs and grips etc), and say
another £350 for the chassis (often only 1" sq tubing) and bodywork
and you are only at ~£1000 (and I think they might all be way over
estimated if bought at trade / bulk prices). So that leaves £2000 for
assembly costs, profit (manufacturer, distributor, retailer) minus
any warrantee etc?

You an buy a Dacia Sandero for £6,995 (list price new) and that has a
million more bits and steel than a scooter!


Cheers, T i m

On Thursday, 6 August 2020 22:47:49 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 01:38:24 +0100, williamwright
wrote:
On 04/08/2020 00:47, T i m wrote:

She did ride Dads lightweight / take-down trike but when coming to a
halt on the down-amp at a pedestrian crossing, rather than just
letting go of the throttle bar her ancient cycle riding muscle memory
kicked in and she pulled what she for that second thought was the
front brake. ;-(

There's a very simple thing to drill into scooter riders: "LET GO!" In
other words, if it's all going wrong, release your grip and lift your
hands off the controls. The scooter will stop dead.

What was interesting with tonight's electric-brake-less test run was
how much motor braking it's got, making me think the only role the
electromagnetic brake provides is a parking brake?

I couldn't tell if the overrun braking was just because the
transmission was spinning the motor or that there was some motor
braking (by shorting it out when in 'neutral').

On a footbridge with ramp, the scooter would freewheel down at about
1mph, so if mum got off it and wasn't careful, it could run (well,
'stroll) away. At least I know we can carry on safely testing it in
the meantime. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

The electromagnetic brake covers:
braking on steep slopes
secondary braking mechanism in case the primary fails
parking/mounting/demounting brake


NT

On Fri, 7 Aug 2020 15:19:59 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

snip

On a footbridge with ramp, the scooter would freewheel down at about
1mph, so if mum got off it and wasn't careful, it could run (well,
'stroll) away. At least I know we can carry on safely testing it in
the meantime. ;-)

The electromagnetic brake covers:
braking on steep slopes

'Stopping and staying stopped' on steep slopes, as this is a digital
thing?

secondary braking mechanism in case the primary fails

The primary braking in this case is the motor overrun, then the
electric brake (not sure if it cuts in instantly or has a delay by the
controller, I believe the latter).

parking/mounting/demounting brake

Now that it is 100% because I see it more of a parking than stopping
brake etc.

If you let off from full (Slow) speed it comes to a halt (on the flat)
in about 500mm and that's *only* whatever breaking effort is applied
by the motor (electric brake disconnected, hand brake not used). Now,
the motor could well be shorted (or low resistance) by the controller
under those circumstances and hence providing quite a lot of braking
force in any case. It wouldn't hold it on a slope of course.

The scooter his do one ~5 mile trip (on a very hot day) and with a bit
of 'off road use without an issue and only using 2 of the 8/10 'fuel
gauge' bars.

The PO reported very low range so the chances are this electric brake
has been faulty (and getting worse) for a while. The worry is that
whilst the Rhino controller is supposed to be very well equipped with
all sorts of overload condition overrides, it (and the motor) may well
have been run hot for a while.

Anyway, on the last trip it was fine from here to Mums (.5 mile) but
apparently hesitated once soon after Mum got on it and then cut out
completely once in the local park (about 1 mile total that trip).
Everything was live, including the reversing indicator, just no power
to the motor. I got Mum off the scooter (she can walk short distances
/ stand ok) I removed the seat and motor / battery bay cover but
couldn't see anything loose. I disconnected the main 24V battery
connector and re-connected and then the motor 'pulsed' in response to
the throttle and about 30 seconds later it started working again.

It was fine round the park and back to Mums ... and again from hers to
ours and then seemed to cut out up to the crossover here where it
seemed to cut out again (same symptoms).

Not been back to it since to see if the fault has cleared itself.

I now have access to the Rhino speed-controller installation, wiring
and configuration manual and so if the fault has remained I have a
better chance of diagnosing what and where.

I can get a brand new electric brake from Taiwan for £50 plus any
import duties / tax or a second hand one here for £65. One of the
things I'm not sure about is if the faulty electric brake, fitted
electrically but not mechanically functional is still having an impact
on the situation. If there was something wrong (especially
intermittent) with the electric brake coil ... where it was going open
or short circuit, those I believe are picked up as fault conditions
and would inhibit the controller (5 flashes of the fault light or 1).

The dichotomy is if it isn't to do with the brake but say the
controller itself, we don't want to be spending any more 'real' money
on it, over say a newer s/h or new one (not that they would be immune
from issues either of course).

The coil measured 40 ohms that I believe is about right so I wonder if
I could replace it with a 40 ohm (12W, the rating marked on the brake)
resistor?

Cheers, T i m

On Fri, 7 Aug 2020 03:05:21 +0100, williamwright
wrote:

On 06/08/2020 22:47, T i m wrote:

There's a very simple thing to drill into scooter riders: "LET GO!" In
other words, if it's all going wrong, release your grip and lift your
hands off the controls. The scooter will stop dead.

What was interesting with tonight's electric-brake-less test run was
how much motor braking it's got, making me think the only role the
electromagnetic brake provides is a parking brake?

All scooters should stop dead when you let go of the controls. No over run.

Just found this in the speed controller configuration:

"The Parkbrake Delay parameter sets the delay between zero speed
demand (after the scooter has decelerated and stopped) and the moment
that the parkbrakes are engaged.

The correct value of this parameter is dependent on the mechanics of
the parkbrake that is used on the scooter. The delay must be longer
for fast acting parkbrakes.

If the value of Parkbrake Delay is set too high, there may be too much
rollback when stopping on a slope. If the value is set too low, the
scooter may stop too abruptly."

So it looks like it works as I imagined it. It uses the back emf of
the motor to form as self braking effect / or just the regen braking
or just the fact that you would have to spin the motor quite fast via
the transmission.

Cheers, T i m