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-   -   External handrail fixing (https://www.diybanter.com/uk-diy/678304-external-handrail-fixing.html)

Jeff Layman[_2_] August 2nd 20 11:07 AM

External handrail fixing
 
We have three steps up to our front door. These are 8" high (vertical
brick) and can be awkward for those who are less mobile. I have been
thinking of putting in a handrail like that at
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wrought-Iron-Plain-Handrail-Posts/dp/B072SWRPY9/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8&th=1.


However, as can be seen at the photo at https://ibb.co/Yt4q3Pz, the
fixing for the base of the handrail top post will be close to the edge
of the brick. The door opening is more-or-less along where the brick and
tile meet (where the weather deflector shows), so I would not want the
handrail inside that. I am concerned that even if it survives drilling,
trying to use a plug or rawlplug could result in the top edge of the
brick splitting away when the screw is tightened. Maybe some sort of
resin fixing such as
https://www.screwfix.com/p/rawlplug-r-kem11-175-kit-styrene-free-polyester-resin-175ml/4100r
would be less likely to damage the brick. I do not want to drill into
the tile as if it cracks I have no replacement. The door surround is
metal-framed PVC, and I doubt it has reliable strength to take a wall
fixing for a handrail.

Any comments?

--

Jeff

Tricky Dicky[_4_] August 2nd 20 11:30 AM

External handrail fixing
 
Concrete screws despite their name will fix to brick as well and can be driven in close to the edge. I have a wooden post fixed into one of those metapost brackets which in turn is fixed to a paving slab 50mm thick two of the screws are about 25mm from the edge and have not caused any breakaway even with the post supporting a handrail.

Richard

Tim Lamb[_2_] August 2nd 20 11:44 AM

External handrail fixing
 
In message , Jeff Layman
writes
We have three steps up to our front door. These are 8" high (vertical
brick) and can be awkward for those who are less mobile. I have been
thinking of putting in a handrail like that at
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wrought-Iro...s/dp/B072SWRPY
9/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8&th=1.

However, as can be seen at the photo at https://ibb.co/Yt4q3Pz, the
fixing for the base of the handrail top post will be close to the edge
of the brick. The door opening is more-or-less along where the brick
and tile meet (where the weather deflector shows), so I would not want
the handrail inside that. I am concerned that even if it survives
drilling, trying to use a plug or rawlplug could result in the top edge
of the brick splitting away when the screw is tightened. Maybe some
sort of resin fixing such as
https://www.screwfix.com/p/rawlplug-...ne-free-polyes
ter-resin-175ml/4100r would be less likely to damage the brick. I do
not want to drill into the tile as if it cracks I have no replacement.
The door surround is metal-framed PVC, and I doubt it has reliable
strength to take a wall fixing for a handrail.

Any comments?


Depends a lot on the brick:-) Yours look to be solid clay rather than
full of holes. Assuming the rail is fitted coming up from the right in
your photo, you could fit an additional spacer as high up the lower
upright as you can and screw through that to the wall?

I don't see a problem in doing the same to the metal framed PVC.


--
Tim Lamb

[email protected] August 2nd 20 12:18 PM

External handrail fixing
 
On Sunday, 2 August 2020 10:07:22 UTC+1, Jeff Layman wrote:
We have three steps up to our front door. These are 8" high (vertical
brick) and can be awkward for those who are less mobile. I have been
thinking of putting in a handrail


If you are uncertain the brick will take the full tug load of an adult, I would put in double right-angle 'Z' brackets at the base of the handrail so you can drill through into both the vertical long side of the brick, and the horizontal surface of the step below / to the side. Then weld or bolt the upright to the brackets.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/4/45/Handrail.jpg

Owain

newshound August 2nd 20 12:50 PM

External handrail fixing
 
On 02/08/2020 11:18, wrote:
On Sunday, 2 August 2020 10:07:22 UTC+1, Jeff Layman wrote:
We have three steps up to our front door. These are 8" high (vertical
brick) and can be awkward for those who are less mobile. I have been
thinking of putting in a handrail


If you are uncertain the brick will take the full tug load of an adult, I would put in double right-angle 'Z' brackets at the base of the handrail so you can drill through into both the vertical long side of the brick, and the horizontal surface of the step below / to the side. Then weld or bolt the upright to the brackets.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/4/45/Handrail.jpg

Owain

Agreed, though to add to an earlier post the "Multi Monti" type screws
(which need an accurate hole) are very secure, and will work close to
the edge of any reasonably good brick, especially with a deep hole. The
concrete screws which look more like wood screws should not be used near
edges.

Dave Liquorice[_2_] August 2nd 20 01:12 PM

External handrail fixing
 
On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 10:07:20 +0100, Jeff Layman wrote:

We have three steps up to our front door. These are 8" high (vertical
brick) and can be awkward for those who are less mobile. I have been
thinking of putting in a handrail like that at
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wrought-Iro.../dp/B072SWRPY9


How much!

However, as can be seen at the photo at https://ibb.co/Yt4q3Pz, the
fixing for the base of the handrail top post will be close to the edge
of the brick.


And there isn't a great deal holding those vertical bricks in place.
I'm assuming that the hand rail will be perpendicular to the wall, so
someone leaning heavly on the rail will be effectively levering the
brick out of its slot. Those bases look horribly small as well with a
1.2 m lever attached. Personally I'd look for bases that would allow
fixing to the centerish of two bricks and have some diagonal bracing
to the rail. I do have tendancy to over engineer things...

I do not want to drill into the tile as if it cracks I have no
replacement.


Take it steady with a proper tile drill (no hammer action!) and it
shouldn't be a problem. Clearance hole for the fixing. Do you know
what's underneath the tiles? Hopefully it's rubble infilled with
concrete to a solid lump. That would provide a much firmer fixing
than either of the bricks.

The door surround is metal-framed PVC, and I doubt it has reliable
strength to take a wall fixing for a handrail.


I was going to suggest something like:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B086DS1X8F

But you haven't a real wall to fix it to.

--
Cheers
Dave.




John Rumm August 2nd 20 01:53 PM

External handrail fixing
 
On 02/08/2020 11:18, wrote:
On Sunday, 2 August 2020 10:07:22 UTC+1, Jeff Layman wrote:
We have three steps up to our front door. These are 8" high (vertical
brick) and can be awkward for those who are less mobile. I have been
thinking of putting in a handrail


If you are uncertain the brick will take the full tug load of an adult, I would put in double right-angle 'Z' brackets at the base of the handrail so you can drill through into both the vertical long side of the brick, and the horizontal surface of the step below / to the side. Then weld or bolt the upright to the brackets.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/4/45/Handrail.jpg

Or working with that theme, stick the rail into the lower step, but hard
against the top step, then use a U bolt or similar anchor to fix the
post to the side of the top step.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

newshound August 2nd 20 02:09 PM

External handrail fixing
 
On 02/08/2020 12:12, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 10:07:20 +0100, Jeff Layman wrote:

We have three steps up to our front door. These are 8" high (vertical
brick) and can be awkward for those who are less mobile. I have been
thinking of putting in a handrail like that at
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wrought-Iro.../dp/B072SWRPY9


How much!

However, as can be seen at the photo at https://ibb.co/Yt4q3Pz, the
fixing for the base of the handrail top post will be close to the edge
of the brick.


And there isn't a great deal holding those vertical bricks in place.
I'm assuming that the hand rail will be perpendicular to the wall, so
someone leaning heavly on the rail will be effectively levering the
brick out of its slot. Those bases look horribly small as well with a
1.2 m lever attached. Personally I'd look for bases that would allow
fixing to the centerish of two bricks and have some diagonal bracing
to the rail. I do have tendancy to over engineer things...

I do not want to drill into the tile as if it cracks I have no
replacement.


Take it steady with a proper tile drill (no hammer action!) and it
shouldn't be a problem. Clearance hole for the fixing. Do you know
what's underneath the tiles? Hopefully it's rubble infilled with
concrete to a solid lump. That would provide a much firmer fixing
than either of the bricks.


Those look a bit like quarry tiles, in which case they may be a bugger
to drill using an ordinary carbide bit.


The door surround is metal-framed PVC, and I doubt it has reliable
strength to take a wall fixing for a handrail.


I was going to suggest something like:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B086DS1X8F

But you haven't a real wall to fix it to.


We could do with a wider view of the layout, there might be other ways
to create a suitable handrail supported away from those steps (or at any
rate not imposing significant moments or sideways loads on them if
called on to support a tripping body).

Dave Liquorice[_2_] August 2nd 20 02:20 PM

External handrail fixing
 
On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 13:09:13 +0100, newshound wrote:

I do not want to drill into the tile as if it cracks I have no
replacement.


Take it steady with a proper tile drill (no hammer action!) and it
shouldn't be a problem. ks.


Those look a bit like quarry tiles, in which case they may be a bugger
to drill using an ordinary carbide bit.


Probably are but still drillable provided you take it easy and use
water as a lubricant/coolant if required.

We could do with a wider view of the layout, there might be other ways
to create a suitable handrail supported away from those steps


Agreed we only see two of the three steps mentioned.

--
Cheers
Dave.




Jeff Layman[_2_] August 2nd 20 03:23 PM

External handrail fixing
 
On 02/08/2020 13:09, newshound wrote:
On 02/08/2020 12:12, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 10:07:20 +0100, Jeff Layman wrote:

We have three steps up to our front door. These are 8" high (vertical
brick) and can be awkward for those who are less mobile. I have been
thinking of putting in a handrail like that at
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wrought-Iro.../dp/B072SWRPY9


How much!

However, as can be seen at the photo at https://ibb.co/Yt4q3Pz, the
fixing for the base of the handrail top post will be close to the edge
of the brick.


And there isn't a great deal holding those vertical bricks in place.
I'm assuming that the hand rail will be perpendicular to the wall, so
someone leaning heavly on the rail will be effectively levering the
brick out of its slot. Those bases look horribly small as well with a
1.2 m lever attached. Personally I'd look for bases that would allow
fixing to the centerish of two bricks and have some diagonal bracing
to the rail. I do have tendancy to over engineer things...

I do not want to drill into the tile as if it cracks I have no
replacement.


Take it steady with a proper tile drill (no hammer action!) and it
shouldn't be a problem. Clearance hole for the fixing. Do you know
what's underneath the tiles? Hopefully it's rubble infilled with
concrete to a solid lump. That would provide a much firmer fixing
than either of the bricks.


Those look a bit like quarry tiles, in which case they may be a bugger
to drill using an ordinary carbide bit.


The door surround is metal-framed PVC, and I doubt it has reliable
strength to take a wall fixing for a handrail.


I was going to suggest something like:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B086DS1X8F

But you haven't a real wall to fix it to.


We could do with a wider view of the layout, there might be other ways
to create a suitable handrail supported away from those steps (or at any
rate not imposing significant moments or sideways loads on them if
called on to support a tripping body).


Your wish is my command...
https://ibb.co/25k41g3

Sorry about the plants in the way!

The concrete at the base of the steps is strong and thick, so the bottom
post would be very stable when screwed to it. The first step "plinth" is
3750 x 930 mm (there is a wall on the left side that can't be seen in
the photo). The next step is 1430 x 680, and the top step is 910 x 42.

Many thanks for all the replies. I'd forgotten about concrete screws,
and I hadn't taken into account that vertical brick might move out with
a strong sideways moment on it. A "Z" bracket would help, but that would
need drilling into the tile below, and as I've said I'm not keen on
that. I'm now wondering if it might be best to have the top post fixed
to the house wall where the door and RH panel meet. That would almost
certainly mean a bespoke handrail construction and even the "ready to
use" ones aren't exactly cheap! However, it's not the sort of thing
where an "it'll do..." attitude should apply.

--

Jeff

williamwright August 2nd 20 04:00 PM

External handrail fixing
 
On 02/08/2020 10:07, Jeff Layman wrote:
We have three steps up to our front door. These are 8" high (vertical
brick) and can be awkward for those who are less mobile. I have been
thinking of putting in a handrail like that at
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wrought-Iron-Plain-Handrail-Posts/dp/B072SWRPY9/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8&th=1.



Bolt a length of 3" x 3" angle to the side of the vertical bricks. It
should be half way up the bricks and should span all the bricks with a
fixing into each the centre of each brick, in order to spread the load.
Fix the rail support to the horizontal surface of the angle. You could
get the angle galved and powder coated, or merely clean and paint it
thoroughly. A local light engineering one-man band would be your best bet.

Bill

[email protected] August 2nd 20 04:55 PM

External handrail fixing
 
On Sunday, 2 August 2020 14:23:55 UTC+1, Jeff Layman wrote:
The door surround is metal-framed PVC, and I doubt it has reliable
strength to take a wall fixing for a handrail.

I'm now wondering if it might be best to have the top post fixed
to the house wall where the door and RH panel meet.


It would.

I'd suggest an L fixed to the wall to teh side and below the door opening, and another angled L forming the handrail and vertical, fixed into the path concrete. That avoids drilling the steps bricks and tiles completely, and holes in the house wall will be more easily patched when the rail is removed.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/9/91/Handrail2.jpg

A blacksmith should be able to fit that up out of steel tube for you, or if you want to DIY, Kee Klamp or equivalent.

https://www.themetalstore.co.uk/products/tube-clamps

Galv steel tube is only a fiver a metre and most of the fittings are under a fiver. Obs a smith can bend the tube, saving an adjustable angle fitting and looking neater.

Owain



[email protected] August 2nd 20 04:59 PM

External handrail fixing
 
On Sunday, 2 August 2020 15:55:51 UTC+1, wrote:
https://www.themetalstore.co.uk/products/tube-clamps


A couple of examples in their gallery

https://www.themetalstore.co.uk/up/i...5072/image.jpg

https://www.themetalstore.co.uk/gallery/main

Owain

T i m August 2nd 20 05:45 PM

External handrail fixing
 
On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 07:59:47 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Sunday, 2 August 2020 15:55:51 UTC+1, wrote:
https://www.themetalstore.co.uk/products/tube-clamps

A couple of examples in their gallery

https://www.themetalstore.co.uk/up/i...5072/image.jpg


Wouldn't you have brushed it all down before stepping back to take the
picture? ;-)

Cheers, T i m

newshound August 2nd 20 05:59 PM

External handrail fixing
 
On 02/08/2020 15:55, wrote:
On Sunday, 2 August 2020 14:23:55 UTC+1, Jeff Layman wrote:
The door surround is metal-framed PVC, and I doubt it has reliable
strength to take a wall fixing for a handrail.

I'm now wondering if it might be best to have the top post fixed
to the house wall where the door and RH panel meet.


It would.

I'd suggest an L fixed to the wall to teh side and below the door opening, and another angled L forming the handrail and vertical, fixed into the path concrete. That avoids drilling the steps bricks and tiles completely, and holes in the house wall will be more easily patched when the rail is removed.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/9/91/Handrail2.jpg

A blacksmith should be able to fit that up out of steel tube for you, or if you want to DIY, Kee Klamp or equivalent.

https://www.themetalstore.co.uk/products/tube-clamps

Galv steel tube is only a fiver a metre and most of the fittings are under a fiver. Obs a smith can bend the tube, saving an adjustable angle fitting and looking neater.

Owain


Exactly what I was going to suggest the moment I saw the picture!

I used key clamp for the steps of my late parents victorian basement
flat (where it wasn't very visible and didn't need to look pretty). Also
Key Clamp is relatively easy to remove.

In your case I would probably consider getting a blacksmith to make
something prettier. What they'd charge depends on what they think you
are able to pay.

Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) August 2nd 20 07:02 PM

External handrail fixing
 
A hand rail is not just a guide, it has to have strength in all directions
in my view. Somebody leaning on it and it giving way is worse than no hand
rail at all. Also consider painting white lines on the edges and sides of
steps to help in poor light.

Is there no way its lower end can be attached to the base as well as a step?
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Jeff Layman" wrote in message
...
We have three steps up to our front door. These are 8" high (vertical
brick) and can be awkward for those who are less mobile. I have been
thinking of putting in a handrail like that at
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wrought-Iron-Plain-Handrail-Posts/dp/B072SWRPY9/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8&th=1.

However, as can be seen at the photo at https://ibb.co/Yt4q3Pz, the
fixing for the base of the handrail top post will be close to the edge of
the brick. The door opening is more-or-less along where the brick and tile
meet (where the weather deflector shows), so I would not want the handrail
inside that. I am concerned that even if it survives drilling, trying to
use a plug or rawlplug could result in the top edge of the brick splitting
away when the screw is tightened. Maybe some sort of resin fixing such as
https://www.screwfix.com/p/rawlplug-r-kem11-175-kit-styrene-free-polyester-resin-175ml/4100r
would be less likely to damage the brick. I do not want to drill into the
tile as if it cracks I have no replacement. The door surround is
metal-framed PVC, and I doubt it has reliable strength to take a wall
fixing for a handrail.

Any comments?

--

Jeff




Jeff Layman[_2_] August 2nd 20 07:41 PM

External handrail fixing
 
On 02/08/2020 15:55, wrote:
On Sunday, 2 August 2020 14:23:55 UTC+1, Jeff Layman wrote:
The door surround is metal-framed PVC, and I doubt it has reliable
strength to take a wall fixing for a handrail.

I'm now wondering if it might be best to have the top post fixed
to the house wall where the door and RH panel meet.


It would.

I'd suggest an L fixed to the wall to teh side and below the door opening, and another angled L forming the handrail and vertical, fixed into the path concrete. That avoids drilling the steps bricks and tiles completely, and holes in the house wall will be more easily patched when the rail is removed.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/9/91/Handrail2.jpg

A blacksmith should be able to fit that up out of steel tube for you, or if you want to DIY, Kee Klamp or equivalent.

https://www.themetalstore.co.uk/products/tube-clamps

Galv steel tube is only a fiver a metre and most of the fittings are under a fiver. Obs a smith can bend the tube, saving an adjustable angle fitting and looking neater.


Thanks for that. I'd seen the galvanised tube railing but rejected in on
the grounds that it looked like the sort of thing you'd get on terraces
at football grounds! Effective, no doubt, but not exactly attractive,
and I'm sure The Management would have something disparaging to say
about it.

I'll have a think about how to proceed. One possibility is to have the
fixing plate for the wall on a pivot in the same way that the rail
itself can pivot on the post tops for varying heights such as shown at
https://blackbourneiron.co.uk/collections/home-furniture-diy-storage-solutions-wall-hooks-door-hangers/products/wrought-iron-handrail-on-two-bolt-down-posts-adjustable

--

Jeff

[email protected] August 2nd 20 07:49 PM

External handrail fixing
 
On Sunday, 2 August 2020 18:41:26 UTC+1, Jeff Layman wrote:
Thanks for that. I'd seen the galvanised tube railing but rejected in on
the grounds that it looked like the sort of thing you'd get on terraces
at football grounds! Effective, no doubt, but not exactly attractive,
and I'm sure The Management would have something disparaging to say
about it.


You could paint it to match the door colour, and especially if you put a mid-height rail use that to support some potplants (on the outside away from the step.)

Owain

Tricky Dicky[_4_] August 2nd 20 08:26 PM

External handrail fixing
 
On the assumption that under the tiles there is some depth of a concrete or mortar bed onto which the tiles are bedded, then one option is to attach extension plates to the existing bases which would overlap onto the tiles to enable fixing holes in the tiles. Core drills will cut through the tiles and it is possible to get quite small diameter ones. To drill without a pilot drill is simple using a wooden template with a hole matching the core drill.

Richard

Jeff Layman[_2_] August 2nd 20 08:31 PM

External handrail fixing
 
On 02/08/2020 18:49, wrote:
On Sunday, 2 August 2020 18:41:26 UTC+1, Jeff Layman wrote:
Thanks for that. I'd seen the galvanised tube railing but rejected in on
the grounds that it looked like the sort of thing you'd get on terraces
at football grounds! Effective, no doubt, but not exactly attractive,
and I'm sure The Management would have something disparaging to say
about it.


You could paint it to match the door colour, and especially if you put a mid-height rail use that to support some potplants (on the outside away from the step.)


That's not a bad idea. It would also give me a get-out clause if anyone
leant too hard on it and it gave way - "Why have you pushed over my
jardinière?" ;-)

--

Jeff

polygonum_on_google[_2_] August 2nd 20 09:21 PM

External handrail fixing
 
On Sunday, 2 August 2020 18:49:34 UTC+1, wrote:
On Sunday, 2 August 2020 18:41:26 UTC+1, Jeff Layman wrote:
Thanks for that. I'd seen the galvanised tube railing but rejected in on
the grounds that it looked like the sort of thing you'd get on terraces
at football grounds! Effective, no doubt, but not exactly attractive,
and I'm sure The Management would have something disparaging to say
about it.


You could paint it to match the door colour, and especially if you put a mid-height rail use that to support some potplants (on the outside away from the step.)

Owain


But painting galvanised tube needs proper treatment. I am looking to do a very small amount in the next week or two. Anyone got good, simple, cheap suggestions?

charles August 2nd 20 09:53 PM

External handrail fixing
 
In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote:
On 02/08/2020 15:55, wrote:
On Sunday, 2 August 2020 14:23:55 UTC+1, Jeff Layman wrote:
The door surround is metal-framed PVC, and I doubt it has reliable
strength to take a wall fixing for a handrail.
I'm now wondering if it might be best to have the top post fixed
to the house wall where the door and RH panel meet.


It would.

I'd suggest an L fixed to the wall to teh side and below the door
opening, and another angled L forming the handrail and vertical, fixed
into the path concrete. That avoids drilling the steps bricks and tiles
completely, and holes in the house wall will be more easily patched
when the rail is removed.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/9/91/Handrail2.jpg

A blacksmith should be able to fit that up out of steel tube for you,
or if you want to DIY, Kee Klamp or equivalent.

https://www.themetalstore.co.uk/products/tube-clamps

Galv steel tube is only a fiver a metre and most of the fittings are
under a fiver. Obs a smith can bend the tube, saving an adjustable
angle fitting and looking neater.


Thanks for that. I'd seen the galvanised tube railing but rejected in on
the grounds that it looked like the sort of thing you'd get on terraces
at football grounds! Effective, no doubt, but not exactly attractive,
and I'm sure The Management would have something disparaging to say
about it.


We have a safety barrier at our Village Hall made of this. A covering of
coloured tape, as we've done, might enhance it. You can get it pre-coated
to a colour.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Martin Brown[_2_] August 2nd 20 11:19 PM

External handrail fixing
 
On 02/08/2020 10:07, Jeff Layman wrote:
We have three steps up to our front door. These are 8" high (vertical
brick) and can be awkward for those who are less mobile. I have been
thinking of putting in a handrail like that at
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wrought-Iron-Plain-Handrail-Posts/dp/B072SWRPY9/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8&th=1.


If the less mobile includes the residents why not do a proper job and
scrap the 3x 8" steep step in favour of more user friendly 4x 6" steps.

That is what I did when faced with a single 10" step. Which was actually
an original 8" step plus the additional height of a uPVC door frame.
I added a split the difference platform at the mid level. That changed
the entry and exit route from mountaineering into really quite easy/

However, as can be seen at the photo at https://ibb.co/Yt4q3Pz, the
fixing for the base of the handrail top post will be close to the
edge of the brick. The door opening is more-or-less along where the
brick and tile meet (where the weather deflector shows), so I would
not want the handrail inside that. I am concerned that even if it
survives drilling, trying to use a plug or rawlplug could result in
the top edge of the brick splitting away when the screw is tightened.
Maybe some sort of resin fixing such as
https://www.screwfix.com/p/rawlplug-r-kem11-175-kit-styrene-free-polyester-resin-175ml/4100r
would be less likely to damage the brick. I do not want to drill
into the tile as if it cracks I have no replacement. The door
surround is metal-framed PVC, and I doubt it has reliable strength to
take a wall fixing for a handrail.

Any comments?


I'd be wary of going closer to the edge than an inch. It is most likely
to fail when a full adult weight sideways dynamic load is applied - IOW
when someone trips and then tries to use the rail to support themselves.


--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Jeff Layman[_2_] August 2nd 20 11:40 PM

External handrail fixing
 
On 02/08/2020 22:19, Martin Brown wrote:
On 02/08/2020 10:07, Jeff Layman wrote:
We have three steps up to our front door. These are 8" high (vertical
brick) and can be awkward for those who are less mobile. I have been
thinking of putting in a handrail like that at
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wrought-Iron-Plain-Handrail-Posts/dp/B072SWRPY9/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8&th=1.


If the less mobile includes the residents why not do a proper job and
scrap the 3x 8" steep step in favour of more user friendly 4x 6" steps.


I had considered that, but changing this lot:
https://ibb.co/25k41g3
would involve a lot of work and a lot of expense.

That is what I did when faced with a single 10" step. Which was actually
an original 8" step plus the additional height of a uPVC door frame.
I added a split the difference platform at the mid level. That changed
the entry and exit route from mountaineering into really quite easy/

However, as can be seen at the photo at https://ibb.co/Yt4q3Pz, the
fixing for the base of the handrail top post will be close to the
edge of the brick. The door opening is more-or-less along where the
brick and tile meet (where the weather deflector shows), so I would
not want the handrail inside that. I am concerned that even if it
survives drilling, trying to use a plug or rawlplug could result in
the top edge of the brick splitting away when the screw is tightened.
Maybe some sort of resin fixing such as
https://www.screwfix.com/p/rawlplug-r-kem11-175-kit-styrene-free-polyester-resin-175ml/4100r
would be less likely to damage the brick. I do not want to drill
into the tile as if it cracks I have no replacement. The door
surround is metal-framed PVC, and I doubt it has reliable strength to
take a wall fixing for a handrail.

Any comments?


I'd be wary of going closer to the edge than an inch. It is most likely
to fail when a full adult weight sideways dynamic load is applied - IOW
when someone trips and then tries to use the rail to support themselves.


That's why I am now looking at fixing it to the bricks under the
door/panel. I actually emailed the handrail makers in my OP early this
evening and got a reply an hour ago! They think they can do what I want
with a minor mod to their off-the-shelf handrails, but I will send them
a photo/diagram tomorrow morning to make sure we are both clear about
what I'm asking for.

--

Jeff

newshound August 3rd 20 11:58 AM

External handrail fixing
 
On 02/08/2020 18:41, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 02/08/2020 15:55, wrote:
On Sunday, 2 August 2020 14:23:55 UTC+1, Jeff LaymanÂ* wrote:
The door surround is metal-framed PVC, and I doubt it has reliable
strength to take a wall fixing for a handrail.
I'm now wondering if it might be best to have the top post fixed
to the house wall where the door and RH panel meet.


It would.

I'd suggest an LÂ* fixed to the wall to teh side and below the door
opening, and another angled L forming the handrail and vertical, fixed
into the path concrete. That avoids drilling the steps bricks and
tiles completely, and holes in the house wall will be more easily
patched when the rail is removed.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/9/91/Handrail2.jpg

A blacksmith should be able to fit that up out of steel tube for you,
or if you want to DIY, Kee Klamp or equivalent.

https://www.themetalstore.co.uk/products/tube-clamps

Galv steel tube is only a fiver a metre and most of the fittings are
under a fiver. Obs a smith can bend the tube, saving an adjustable
angle fitting and looking neater.


Thanks for that. I'd seen the galvanised tube railing but rejected in on
the grounds that it looked like the sort of thing you'd get on terraces
at football grounds! Effective, no doubt, but not exactly attractive,
and I'm sure The Management would have something disparaging to say
about it.

I'll have a think about how to proceed. One possibility is to have the
fixing plate for the wall on a pivot in the same way that the rail
itself can pivot on the post tops for varying heights such as shown at
https://blackbourneiron.co.uk/collections/home-furniture-diy-storage-solutions-wall-hooks-door-hangers/products/wrought-iron-handrail-on-two-bolt-down-posts-adjustable


Suitable L shaped bracket bolted to the wall, to give you a place to
bolt the foot of the "off the shelf" unit?

Or (to paraphrase Brad Paisley)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9F_FN4ygjTo

Get you a welder, learn how to weld



John Rumm August 3rd 20 05:06 PM

External handrail fixing
 
On 02/08/2020 14:23, Jeff Layman wrote:

Your wish is my command...
https://ibb.co/25k41g3

Sorry about the plants in the way!

The concrete at the base of the steps is strong and thick, so the bottom
post would be very stable when screwed to it. The first step "plinth" is
3750 x 930 mm (there is a wall on the left side that can't be seen in
the photo). The next step is 1430 x 680, and the top step is 910 x 42.

Many thanks for all the replies. I'd forgotten about concrete screws,
and I hadn't taken into account that vertical brick might move out with
a strong sideways moment on it.


One quite nice thing about resin fixings is that you can use custom
lengths of threaded rod, to get more load capacity. With a wide
baseplate you can shift most of the loading to tension on the bolts -
and resin bonded anchors are good at dealing with that.

A "Z" bracket would help, but that would
need drilling into the tile below, and as I've said I'm not keen on
that.


I would not be too worried about that; quarry tiles are hard but
drillable - normally something like a Bosch multi material bit will
work. If you find it difficult, then one of the miniture grit edges hole
saws will do it (they will do porcelain - which is the hardest tile to
cut IME).

I'm now wondering if it might be best to have the top post fixed
to the house wall where the door and RH panel meet. That would almost
certainly mean a bespoke handrail construction and even the "ready to
use" ones aren't exactly cheap! However, it's not the sort of thing
where an "it'll do..." attitude should apply.


If you are handy with a welder, then you can buy all the various bits of
wrought iron metalwork for handrails separately and make what you need.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm August 9th 20 10:41 PM

External handrail fixing
 
On 02/08/2020 22:19, Martin Brown wrote:
On 02/08/2020 10:07, Jeff Layman wrote:
We have three steps up to our front door. These are 8" high (vertical
Â*brick) and can be awkward for those who are less mobile. I have been
Â*thinking of putting in a handrail like that at
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wrought-Iron-Plain-Handrail-Posts/dp/B072SWRPY9/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8&th=1.


If the less mobile includes the residents why not do a proper job and
scrap the 3x 8" steep step in favour of more user friendly 4x 6" steps.


Could be worse:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QGmSOzXV1s


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Jeff Layman[_2_] August 10th 20 10:13 AM

External handrail fixing
 
On 09/08/2020 21:41, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/08/2020 22:19, Martin Brown wrote:
On 02/08/2020 10:07, Jeff Layman wrote:
We have three steps up to our front door. These are 8" high (vertical
Â*brick) and can be awkward for those who are less mobile. I have been
Â*thinking of putting in a handrail like that at
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wrought-Iron-Plain-Handrail-Posts/dp/B072SWRPY9/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8&th=1.


If the less mobile includes the residents why not do a proper job and
scrap the 3x 8" steep step in favour of more user friendly 4x 6" steps.


Could be worse:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QGmSOzXV1s


Vary strange! As noted in some of the comments, it appears the steps
were rounded and the bottom three were cut off straight.

I've been trying to paint the handrail I bought, but Hammerite doesn't
like going on evenly when it's too warm. I've decided to do three thick
coats with an "I don't care what it looks like" finish just to protect
the wrought iron underneath for the time being. When it's cooler I'll
use wet'n'dry to smooth it and repaint, probably using a miniroller, as
IMHO paint brushes are instruments of torture.

--

Jeff


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