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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Viewing 4TB hard drive with 32 bit system
This is an offshoot of the Fritzbox query. OS is W10 32 bit, and I vaguely recall that the maximum drive size is 2TB so, if I attach an external 4TB hard disk and make 2 x 2TB partitions, will that work and be usable as two separate 2TB drives? Son has 64 bit system, so could set up the disk on his PC. -- Graeme |
#2
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Viewing 4TB hard drive with 32 bit system
On 22/07/2020 14:26, Graeme wrote:
This is an offshoot of the Fritzbox query. OS is W10 32 bit, and I vaguely recall that the maximum drive size is 2TB so, if I attach an external 4TB hard disk and make 2 x 2TB partitions, will that work and be usable as two separate 2TB drives? Son has 64 bit system, so could set up the disk on his PC. I think so. IIRC 32 bit tools will actually be able to partition it ... -- Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill |
#3
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Viewing 4TB hard drive with 32 bit system
On 22/07/2020 14:26, Graeme wrote:
This is an offshoot of the Fritzbox query. See follow-up to that query - V7.2 is out with later SMB version support -- mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk |
#4
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Viewing 4TB hard drive with 32 bit system
Graeme wrote:
OS is W10 32 bit, and I vaguely recall that the maximum drive size is 2TB With 4kB clusters, the maximum partition size is 16TB, regardless of whether windows is 32 or 64 bit, but to use a disk larger than 2TB, it needs to be partitioned as GPT rather than MBR, and if you want the disk to be bootable you need to have UEFI rather than BIOS. You can go *much* bigger with larger clusters, but you wouldn't generally on a home PC. |
#5
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Viewing 4TB hard drive with 32 bit system
In message , Andy Burns
writes With 4kB clusters, the maximum partition size is 16TB, regardless of whether windows is 32 or 64 bit, but to use a disk larger than 2TB, it needs to be partitioned as GPT rather than MBR, and if you want the disk to be bootable you need to have UEFI rather than BIOS. Excellent, thanks. I'm looking at, for example, eBay item 333315265003 which is a Seagate Expansion 4TB 5900 RPM USB 3.0 Desktop Hard Drive, and Googling tells me I can use Windows to change a disk from MBR to GPT partition as long as the disk contains no partitions or volumes, so should be good to go (no need for disk to be bootable). He says, hopefully. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Seagate-E...USB-3-0-Deskto p-Hard-Drive-Black/333315265003?epid=153394441&hash=item4d9b2351eb%3A g%3A Na4AAOSwRtNbiO1G&LH_BIN=1 -- Graeme |
#6
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Viewing 4TB hard drive with 32 bit system
On 22/07/2020 16:24, Graeme wrote:
In message , Andy Burns writes With 4kB clusters, the maximum partition size is 16TB, regardless of whether windows is 32 or 64 bit, but to use a disk larger than 2TB, it needs to be partitioned as GPT rather than MBR, and if you want the disk to be bootable you need to have UEFI rather than BIOS. Excellent, thanks.Â* I'm looking at, for example, eBay item 333315265003 which is a Seagate Expansion 4TB 5900 RPM USB 3.0 Desktop Hard Drive, and Googling tells me I can use Windows to change a disk from MBR to GPT partition as long as the disk contains no partitions or volumes, so should be good to go (no need for disk to be bootable).Â* He says, hopefully. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Seagate-E...USB-3-0-Deskto p-Hard-Drive-Black/333315265003?epid=153394441&hash=item4d9b2351eb%3A g%3A Na4AAOSwRtNbiO1G&LH_BIN=1 If you can't partition in windows, then GParted can usually handle it: https://gparted.org/ -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#7
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Viewing 4TB hard drive with 32 bit system
In message , John
Rumm writes If you can't partition in windows, then GParted can usually handle it: https://gparted.org/ Thanks John. Just noticed that the drive I'm looking at is a fiver cheaper via Amazon, too. -- Graeme |
#8
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Viewing 4TB hard drive with 32 bit system
Graeme wrote:
This is an offshoot of the Fritzbox query. OS is W10 32 bit, and I vaguely recall that the maximum drive size is 2TB so, if I attach an external 4TB hard disk and make 2 x 2TB partitions, will that work and be usable as two separate 2TB drives? Son has 64 bit system, so could set up the disk on his PC. The answer is no. It's got nothing to do with bitness of OSes. I can write 32 bit code here, where there is an fopen64() and similar, having 64bit fields for things. In other words, "large objects" have been supported in software for some time. I can do that in MinGW32. However, crusty other layers in the stack, stuff closer to the hardware, is not easily persuaded. In that layer, compatibility is favored over extending capability. ******* There are two partitioning schemes. Legacy MSDOS (partition table in MBR) 32 bit fields, limit 2.2TB or so GUID Partition Table (GPT), 128MB partition table 2.2TB possible and easy to do There is a handler for OSes like Windows XP era, which is "Acronis Capacity Manager" and driver. It splits a 4GB disk into two Legacy MSDOS pieces. The driver declares your single disk as Disk 2 -------- 2TB of stuff -------- Disk 5 -------- 2TB of stuff -------- That's a kind of cheat, which gives access to the whole disk, but only the first portion (Disk 2) could be booted from. Disk 5 is "virtual" but is not labeled as virtual. But, Disk 5 only "exists" once the Acronis driver fires up. The MBR for Disk 5 is at the 2TB mark on the 4TB disk drive. Now, consider your router with its file serving extension. What does it know about ? Only Legacy MSDOS. And maybe FAT32 file systems. If you use a RaspberryPI or similar device, you can run various NAS softwares and pretend to be heroic while doing so. Whereas the poor little router box, people don't sit around every day making new OSes for those with extended capabilities. Yes, there are a few firmwares available, but the resources inside the router may not be suited to efficient handling of such chores. If the router has 8MB of RAM, you can't do Bill Gates tax return on there. There are even some "powerful" routers, routers with multiple ARM cores. The problem is still one of software availability - is the manufacturer clever or not ? Some manufacturers of routers are so lazy, they use the firmware the SOC maker produced as "demo code". Which means not only is the firmware crap, it might even have easily exploited security issues. ******* If I had to place a bet, the 4TB drive connected to the Fritz box - 2TB will be accessible in some fashion. If you're lucky enough to have a router with GPT capability, then the whole thing would be visible and you could declare a single 4TB partition if you wanted. Note that a few of the older backup softwares, have a 2.2TB limit on transfers. With the right software, you'll be able to back up your single 4TB partition. The next issue would be file system. FAT32/NTFS/ExFat. The tradition would be FAT32 on such router boxes, with a 4GB max file size, and some sort of limits on files and folders. The cluster size makes larger storage possible. In such cases, you can use the Ridgecrop formatter, if that's what the router demands as a file system. The Ridgecrop formatter can do FAT32 up to 2TB. http://www.ridgecrop.demon.co.uk/ind...at32format.htm http://www.ridgecrop.demon.co.uk/dow...at32format.zip On your PC, the steps would be: 1) Disk Management 2) Create 2TB partition. Format it NTFS or leave it RAW. What you want at this point, is a "drive letter". The partition must have a drive letter for the next step to work. 3) Now, after the Disk Management part is done, you do fat32format.exe X: and that puts a very large cluster size of FAT32 on X: for you. Now, plug the drive into the router. Windows has a piddly limit for FAT32, if that's what the router wants. Whereas the Ridgecrop formatter will take an NTFS partition, make it FAT32, and away you go. Windows will not offer FAT32 as an option, if a partition is too big. Some day, you'll be using this 4TB drive for something else, and then the entire capacity will be your plaything. For example, the disks I did have "prepped" with Acronis, I've since converted those to GPT and that works a lot better in the computer room (cross platform). There's no Acronis for Linux, and if you do a loopback mount at a high offset, the Linux driver runs at 10MB/sec, which is mighty irritating. Switching to GPT (not suitable for router, good for computers) was my answer. Paul |
#9
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Viewing 4TB hard drive with 32 bit system
On 22/07/2020 15:23, Andy Burns wrote:
Graeme wrote: OS is W10 32 bit, and I vaguely recall that the maximum drive size is 2TB With 4kB clusters, the maximum partition size is 16TB, regardless of whether windows is 32 or 64 bit, but to use a disk larger than 2TB, it needs to be partitioned as GPT rather than MBR, and if you want the disk to be bootable you need to have UEFI rather than BIOS. You can go *much* bigger with larger clusters, but you wouldn't generally on a home PC. For linux fans, I discovered that whilst I could use a partition 2TB on the host machine, NFS was unable to export it as a networkable drive. I didn't search further, I just went to 1.9TB....:-) -- "If you dont read the news paper, you are un-informed. If you read the news paper, you are mis-informed." Mark Twain |
#10
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Viewing 4TB hard drive with 32 bit system
In message , Paul
writes Graeme wrote: This is an offshoot of the Fritzbox query. OS is W10 32 bit, and I vaguely recall that the maximum drive size is 2TB so, if I attach an external 4TB hard disk and make 2 x 2TB partitions, will that work and be usable as two separate 2TB drives? Son has 64 bit system, so could set up the disk on his PC. The answer is no. It's got nothing to do with bitness of OSes. Thank you - all of which sounds terrifying. Having established that I can see and use multiple USB devices attached to the router, the answer must be to purchase a 2TB drive and, if/when necessary, add a second 2TB drive. -- Graeme |
#11
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Viewing 4TB hard drive with 32 bit system
On 23/07/2020 07:10, Graeme wrote:
In message , Paul writes Graeme wrote: Â*This is an offshoot of the Fritzbox query. Â*OS is W10 32 bit, and I vaguely recall that the maximum drive size isÂ* 2TB so, if I attach an external 4TB hard disk and make 2 x 2TB partitions, will that work and be usable as two separate 2TB drives? SonÂ* has 64 bit system, so could set up the disk on his PC. The answer is no. It's got nothing to do with bitness of OSes. Thank you - all of which sounds terrifying. Having established that I can see and use multiple USB devices attached to the router, the answer must be to purchase a 2TB drive and, if/when necessary, add a second 2TB drive. The answer is of course yes https://www.diskpart.com/articles/wi...rive-3889.html -- "And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch". Gospel of St. Mathew 15:14 |
#12
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Viewing 4TB hard drive with 32 bit system
That should work, I'm not sure about the limit since I am sure a friends
drive was over 2tb and I could read it on Windows 7 64bit, but maybe it depends on how it was prepared. Brian -- ----- -- This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from... The Sofa of Brian Gaff... Blind user, so no pictures please Note this Signature is meaningless.! "Graeme" wrote in message ... This is an offshoot of the Fritzbox query. OS is W10 32 bit, and I vaguely recall that the maximum drive size is 2TB so, if I attach an external 4TB hard disk and make 2 x 2TB partitions, will that work and be usable as two separate 2TB drives? Son has 64 bit system, so could set up the disk on his PC. -- Graeme |
#14
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Viewing 4TB hard drive with 32 bit system
Graeme wrote:
In message , Paul writes Graeme wrote: This is an offshoot of the Fritzbox query. OS is W10 32 bit, and I vaguely recall that the maximum drive size is 2TB so, if I attach an external 4TB hard disk and make 2 x 2TB partitions, will that work and be usable as two separate 2TB drives? Son has 64 bit system, so could set up the disk on his PC. The answer is no. It's got nothing to do with bitness of OSes. Thank you - all of which sounds terrifying. Having established that I can see and use multiple USB devices attached to the router, the answer must be to purchase a 2TB drive and, if/when necessary, add a second 2TB drive. Well, I wouldn't panic :-) Here's an example of a page for a Fritzbox. Using your model number, you might track down similar. I have a feeling this is a relatively recent product, not an oldie. https://en.avm.de/service/fritzbox/f...-to-FRITZ-Box/ They do provide a bit of size info in the example. Using your model number, maybe there's a page for yours as well. Your USB-based enclosure has a size limit too. Normally, this isn't really a limit, it's the manufacturer stating "oh, yeah, we tested it with an 8TB drive and it worked". Such an assurance is handy before you buy your drive. On some products, you can find a USB enclosure web page, which has been updated a couple of times with new size information for the enclosure. Both the USB enclosure and the Fritzbox have limits, and you check both for a good nights sleep. So far here, I've only tested up to 6TB on the enclosure, and mine worked OK. There are some single-disk BYOD NAS boxes, which have really weird limits. Like the documentation will say "no more than 280GB drive". And you're left wondering "where the hell do they dig up these weird limits?". Occasionally, you'll find some head-scratchers like that. Paul |
#15
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Viewing 4TB hard drive with 32 bit system
Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
I just tried to access a 2tb drive on an XP 32 bit machine and it was having none of it, go away it said, but in that wonderful Microsoft non specific way. grin. Brian Check to see if the disk is online. ******* C:\ diskpart Microsoft DiskPart version 5.1.3565 === Windows XP Copyright (C) 1999-2003 Microsoft Corporation. On computer: BOB DISKPART list disk Disk ### Status Size Free Dyn Gpt -------- ---------- ------- ------- --- --- Disk 0 Online 466 GB 0 B === my 500GB drive Disk 1 Online 932 GB 0 B === my 1TB drive Disk 2 Online 1863 GB 879 MB === my 2TB drive Disk 3 Online 4080 MB 0 B === tiny RAMDisk DISKPART exit ******* Paul |
#16
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Viewing 4TB hard drive with 32 bit system
Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
That should work, I'm not sure about the limit since I am sure a friends drive was over 2tb and I could read it on Windows 7 64bit, but maybe it depends on how it was prepared. Brian That is GPT partitioned and the entire drive can then be one big partition. My 6TB backup drive features a single 6TB partition. And it works on Vista+ . To see the partition type used (legacy MSDOS partition or GUID Partition Table GPT partition), Microsoft makes it a bit of a nuisance. You can do Properties on the item in a row of Disk Management, but you have to select the correct tab in Properties to see GPT. An excellent utility, is disktype. http://disktype.sourceforge.net/ I use the Cygwin version, an EXE and two Cygwin DLLs. And that runs in WinXP too. disktype.exe /dev/sda # as Administrator, disk identifiers are # in Disk Management row order, sda is the # first drive in the table. Another tool that can scan a drive, but is a royal pain to use, is Testdisk. I use it for everything except the intended purpose. For example, today, I copied the contents of the ESP (boot files) off a drive, for examination on a second computer. This is useful for some forms of boot problems. I would not be able to get at those boot files, without that tool. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TestDisk https://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/TestDisk We're still decades away from "intelligent assistants". Like, just figuring out whether a disk is "online" or "offline", that's a nuisance. If you put a disk "offline", in an effort to Safely Remove, you have to remember to change the status back and put it "Online" again the next time. Otherwise, it'll stay in Offline state forever. Paul |
#17
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Viewing 4TB hard drive with 32 bit system
On 23/07/2020 07:53, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 23/07/2020 07:10, Graeme wrote: In message , Paul writes Graeme wrote: Â*This is an offshoot of the Fritzbox query. Â*OS is W10 32 bit, and I vaguely recall that the maximum drive size isÂ* 2TB so, if I attach an external 4TB hard disk and make 2 x 2TB partitions, will that work and be usable as two separate 2TB drives? SonÂ* has 64 bit system, so could set up the disk on his PC. The answer is no. It's got nothing to do with bitness of OSes. Thank you - all of which sounds terrifying. Having established that I can see and use multiple USB devices attached to the router, the answer must be to purchase a 2TB drive and, if/when necessary, add a second 2TB drive. The answer is of course yes https://www.diskpart.com/articles/wi...rive-3889.html That's a yes to part of the question... yes windows can handle 4TB, however we are talking about a device acting as a NAS providing said space as a network share. That requires rather more than just the final client OS getting it right. (although to be fair the Fritzbox does seem to be pretty competent and flexible from what little I have read) -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#18
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Viewing 4TB hard drive with 32 bit system
John Rumm wrote:
however we are talking about a device acting as a NAS providing said space as a network share. Are we? I thought the discussion had moved on to direct connection to a windows PC ... |
#19
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Viewing 4TB hard drive with 32 bit system
In message , Andy Burns
writes John Rumm wrote: however we are talking about a device acting as a NAS providing said space as a network share. Are we? I thought the discussion had moved on to direct connection to a windows PC ... Sorry! Doubtless me causing confusion. Current situation is a Toshiba 1TB USB powered drive (not SSD) is attached to the router (Fritzbox), together with two USB sticks, via a USB splitter. I can see, and have mapped, all three, which I access from my laptop, using wi-fi. The USB sticks are only there to see if I can access them. Laptop is running W10 32 bit and, this is where I am still unclear, if I buy a 4TB drive and plug it into the router, am I likely to be able to see, access and generally use it via my laptop? A drive is 80-90 pounds, so I don't want to buy one with fingers crossed. Perhaps I should buy a 2TB drive and add a second 2TB drive in the future, if required. -- Graeme |
#20
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Viewing 4TB hard drive with 32 bit system
Graeme wrote:
In message , Andy Burns writes John Rumm wrote: however we are talking about a device acting as a NAS providing said space as a network share. Are we? I thought the discussion had moved on to direct connection to a windows PC ... Sorry! Doubtless me causing confusion. Current situation is a Toshiba 1TB USB powered drive (not SSD) is attached to the router (Fritzbox), together with two USB sticks, via a USB splitter. I can see, and have mapped, all three, which I access from my laptop, using wi-fi. The USB sticks are only there to see if I can access them. Laptop is running W10 32 bit and, this is where I am still unclear, if I buy a 4TB drive and plug it into the router, am I likely to be able to see, access and generally use it via my laptop? A drive is 80-90 pounds, so I don't want to buy one with fingers crossed. Perhaps I should buy a 2TB drive and add a second 2TB drive in the future, if required. Fritzbox Model Number ??? Paul |
#21
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Viewing 4TB hard drive with 32 bit system
Graeme wrote:
if I buy a 4TB drive and plug it into the router, am I likely to be able to see, access and generally use it via my laptop? Assuming all fritz!boxen have the same support, the 4TB disk with maximum 4 partitions (which suggests only MBR rather than GPT support to me, if so you'd need to format it as 2x2TB) https://en.avm.de/service/fritzbox/fritzbox-7360/knowledge-base/publication/show/91_USB-storage-device-cannot-be-or-can-only-be-partly-integrated-by-the-FRITZ-Box/ |
#22
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Viewing 4TB hard drive with 32 bit system
In message , Paul
writes Graeme wrote: Laptop is running W10 32 bit and, this is where I am still unclear, if I buy a 4TB drive and plug it into the router, am I likely to be able to see, access and generally use it via my laptop? A drive is 80-90 pounds, so I don't want to buy one with fingers crossed. Perhaps I should buy a 2TB drive and add a second 2TB drive in the future, if required. Fritzbox Model Number ??? 7530 PN Not sure what the PN means. -- Graeme |
#23
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Viewing 4TB hard drive with 32 bit system
Andy Burns wrote:
Graeme wrote: if I buy a 4TB drive and plug it into the router, am I likely to be able to see, access and generally use it via my laptop? Assuming all fritz!boxen have the same support, the 4TB disk with maximum 4 partitions (which suggests only MBR rather than GPT support to me, if so you'd need to format it as 2x2TB) https://en.avm.de/service/fritzbox/fritzbox-7360/knowledge-base/publication/show/91_USB-storage-device-cannot-be-or-can-only-be-partly-integrated-by-the-FRITZ-Box/ I tried crafting a link by replacing the 7360 with 7530 and it was accepted. https://en.avm.de/service/fritzbox/f...the-FRITZ-Box/ "The FRITZ!Box supports: USB storage devices with a maximum of four partitions, Partitions up to 4 terabytes in size, The file systems NTFS, FAT/FAT32 and ext2/ext3/ext4. " Now, there's something wrong with that, because it implies GPT support. You could test GPT support with a much smaller test device, and see whether it "eats it" or not. The limitation of four partitions is strange too, seeing as that is a Legacy MSDOS partitioning limit for primary partitions. But Legacy MSDOS can have more than four total, by using Extended/Logical for the excess. A GPT partitioned disk has: 1) First partition of type 0xEE, sized to cover the whole disk. So the partition size declared would be 2TB (max size as far as legacy MSDOS is concerned). This is the protective partition declaration, to prevent MSDOS machines from messing around with the disk. Strictly speaking this is optional, but it's provided more or less standard when setting up a disk this [GPT] way. 2) 128MB partition table storage area, not visible to all Windows utilities. 3) Once that amount of stuff is set up, then you can declare a single entry in (2) partition table area describing a 4TB partition if you want. It's just a surprise that a FritzBox would understand such a thing, as typical router-boxes-with-file-serving are only MBR partitioned and support stuff like FAT32 (because at the time, it was "free" or nearly so). A disk doesn't have to be 4TB in size to be "prepared the GPT way". Smaller disks will work for a test. GPT disks can be prepared in Vista/W7/W8/W10. The only ugly bit, is I find sometimes when you try and remove GPT from the disk, later on utilities will insist it's still GPT when it is not. It can require a bit of "erasing work" to knock some sense into it. Paul |
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