On 22/07/2020 11:27, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 22/07/2020 10:32, alan_m wrote:
Perhaps we should all start taking anti-malaria drugs - and experience
the side effects of nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, headache,
insomnia, vivid dreams, dizziness, loss of balance, and ringing in the
ear, acute anxiety, depression, restlessness, confusion, severe
dizziness, hallucinations etc.

Golly, and I thought it was just old age. Maybe I'll stop drinking gin
and tonic.



South Africa banned alcohol sales to combat Covid-19 so perhaps, as an
unproven precaution, we should do the same? After home stocks of gin
have run out the consumption of dodgy tonic may significantly fall.

--
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On Wednesday, 22 July 2020 06:49:56 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
tabbypurr wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 21 July 2020 20:03:53 UTC+1, alan_m wrote:
On 21/07/2020 19:16, tabbypurr wrote:

As one example, there is evidence that vitamin D deficiency

. Vitamin D is cheap & safe in the extreme,

But what if you haven't got a vitamin D deficiency - is it still safe?

yes, hence I said safe in the extreme

Isn't too much vitamin D toxic and can do damage to the kidneys?

Is it advisable to take if on common prescription drugs for conditions
that rely on the the kidneys to be in good working order and for which
regular test for kidney function are performed?

D doesn't shut down kidneys.

Wrong with the calcification of the kidneys.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D_toxicity

your link confirms that sane doses of vit D are not toxic.


NT

On Wednesday, 22 July 2020 10:19:23 UTC+1, Pancho wrote:
On 21/07/2020 19:16, tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 21 July 2020 13:01:32 UTC+1, Pancho wrote:
On 21/07/2020 11:39, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Pancho wrote:

I still don't know what is and isn't necessary.

Perhaps if you told us what we need to do, things would be clearer.

Just ignore it and it will go away seems to be the right wing view.


I wasn't claiming to have an answer, I'm still very much in two minds. I
was just curious as to what Tabbypurr's answer was. I was curious as to
what probabilities Tabbypurr was referring to.

I follow the subject, I don't lead it so have nothing new to tell anyone. The way forward is surely to look at the research, assess how likely its conclusions are and follow what is most likely, subject to fairly assessing the benefits & downsides of each approach.

Governments aren't used to doing that & are clearly far from able or comfortable with it.


Well I'm not seeing that. I have watched Whitty and Vallance and they
appear competent. The Government appear to have made reasonable
decisions, perhaps not the best with hindsight, but reasonable.


As one example, there is evidence that vitamin D deficiency may have a major effect on Covid survival. It's not conclusive, it's not even 75% but it's, in my own estimate, over 50% likely.

What does 50% mean. Can you give us your calculation?

Vitamin D is cheap & safe in the extreme, thus it makes sense for the NHS to give it to anyone admitted to hospital with possible COVID. But they don't.

Why does it make sense? Some Vitamin D supplements are prescription so I
presume there is some danger.

It also makes sense for the government to publicly state that there is some evidence, albeit no proof, that taking it may improve survival rate, and that it's worth taking. They don't.

Medical research has a problem with data dredging. People don't really
understand it. The think random correlations in data mean more than they
do. Even my GP practice nurse doesn't appear to know her arse from her
elbow with respect to "exciting" new research.


There's also weaker evidence that other nutrients may make a difference.. Again multivitamins are dirt cheap, supersafe and have side-benefits. It's silly to not take them.


Yes I have heard the multivitamins argument for 40 years. I've not seen
strong research to support it.

the simplest response is to go look at the studies that find a link between vit D and covid. There's no mileage in me sitting here rehashing it all.


NT

On Wednesday, 22 July 2020 10:19:23 UTC+1, Pancho wrote:

Yes I have heard the multivitamins argument for 40 years. I've not seen
strong research to support it.

Maybe take a look at Health Defence by Dr Paul Clayton.


NT

wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 22 July 2020 06:49:56 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
tabbypurr wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 21 July 2020 20:03:53 UTC+1, alan_m wrote:
On 21/07/2020 19:16, tabbypurr wrote:

As one example, there is evidence that vitamin D deficiency

. Vitamin D is cheap & safe in the extreme,

But what if you haven't got a vitamin D deficiency - is it still safe?

yes, hence I said safe in the extreme

Isn't too much vitamin D toxic and can do damage to the kidneys?

Is it advisable to take if on common prescription drugs for conditions
that rely on the the kidneys to be in good working order and for which
regular test for kidney function are performed?

D doesn't shut down kidneys.

Wrong with the calcification of the kidneys.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D_toxicity

your link confirms that sane doses of vit D are not toxic.

You never could bull**** your way out of a wet paper bag.

On Wednesday, 22 July 2020 10:32:52 UTC+1, alan_m wrote:
On 22/07/2020 03:37, tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 21 July 2020 20:03:53 UTC+1, alan_m wrote:
On 21/07/2020 19:16, tabbypurr wrote:

As one example, there is evidence that vitamin D deficiency

. Vitamin D is cheap & safe in the extreme,

But what if you haven't got a vitamin D deficiency - is it still safe?

yes, hence I said safe in the extreme


In your expert medical opinion you suggest that all those admitted to
hospital with covid 19 should be given vitamin D supplements. This is
not happen so why do all the other medical experts in your peer group
actually treating these people disagree with you?

That's a good topic for discussion. But it's not going to be answered quickly.


Surely it is not
GOVERNMENT policy to prohibit doctors from doing what is good for their
patients?

?

Do you really want a Government to recommend all the quackery out there
especially at the moment when their credibility is so low.

afaik no-one does.

Start
recommending 101 different things that may, or may not, have a minimal
benefit

You think a factor of 25x difference in survival is minimal? Methinks you've not read the relevant bits of paper.

and come a second wave the likelihood of anyone taking notice of
any further serious and necessary advice would be close to zero.

it would be if you start being silly.

Perhaps we should all start taking anti-malaria drugs - and experience
the side effects of nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, headache,
insomnia, vivid dreams, dizziness, loss of balance, and ringing in the
ear, acute anxiety, depression, restlessness, confusion, severe
dizziness, hallucinations etc. Maybe all of these are rare but in the
whole population a number greater than the covid deaths end up with very
serious side effects - just in case it may help.

In your expert opinion which cocktail of harmless drugs, supplements,
food stuffs etc. should be recommended.

Perhaps we should all start smoking to reduce the risk of catching Covid
19 AND ignore that if infected there is a greater risk of dying or
having other life changing outcomes. (depends on which study you read)

Perhaps the best advice a Government could do is to tell the 20% of the
population who are obese or serious overweight to lose the weight in
order to reduce the risk of a life changing event if catching the virus.
Perhaps they should introduce food ration cards to help with this, just
as a sensible precaution?

You sure love silly advice.


NT

wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 22 July 2020 10:19:23 UTC+1, Pancho wrote:

Yes I have heard the multivitamins argument for 40 years. I've not seen
strong research to support it.

Maybe take a look at Health Defence by Dr Paul Clayton.

Thats not strong research.

On Wednesday, 22 July 2020 15:07:02 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 21 July 2020 11:41:42 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Pancho wrote:

I still don't know what is and isn't necessary.

Perhaps if you told us what we need to do, things would be clearer.

Just ignore it and it will go away seems to be the right wing view.

Which of course it will - eventually. But if it wipes out all your family
in the process, you might have preferred a better way?

Just make up a load of patent bs seems to be the left wing way

You must be a very staunch Tory to defend the way this government has
handled things.

I see you're making up stuff again


Given they could hardly have done worse.

Really? They could have done far worse, they could have called it flu & done nothing. They could also do better.


NT

On Wednesday, 22 July 2020 15:07:02 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 21 July 2020 13:47:00 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Pancho wrote:

The honest version of what we are doing is... protecting some of the
elderly.

Then we failed miserably at that too.

Shielding is working to protect the elderly.

Bit late in the day?

It was well enough known the elderly and infirm were going to be hit
hardest. And those in residential care - the hardest hit - are also the
easiest to shield.

For sure. It could be better now and could have been much better before.


But carry on making excuses for your masters. Someone has to.

I don't think you've any clue who my masters are or aren't.


NT

On Wednesday, 22 July 2020 21:57:16 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
tabbypurr wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 22 July 2020 10:19:23 UTC+1, Pancho wrote:

Yes I have heard the multivitamins argument for 40 years. I've not seen
strong research to support it.

Maybe take a look at Health Defence by Dr Paul Clayton.

Thats not strong research.

you haven't even seen it you moron.

On 22/07/2020 21:55, wrote:

You think a factor of 25x difference in survival is minimal? Methinks you've not read the relevant bits of paper.

Wow 25x!

I'm now convinced and seeing as you have already done the research which
recommendations are you making, and presumably following?




--
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On 22/07/2020 21:55, wrote:
On Wednesday, 22 July 2020 10:32:52 UTC+1, alan_m wrote:
On 22/07/2020 03:37, tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 21 July 2020 20:03:53 UTC+1, alan_m wrote:
On 21/07/2020 19:16, tabbypurr wrote:

As one example, there is evidence that vitamin D deficiency

. Vitamin D is cheap & safe in the extreme,

But what if you haven't got a vitamin D deficiency - is it still safe?

yes, hence I said safe in the extreme


In your expert medical opinion you suggest that all those admitted to
hospital with covid 19 should be given vitamin D supplements. This is
not happen so why do all the other medical experts in your peer group
actually treating these people disagree with you?

That's a good topic for discussion. But it's not going to be answered quickly.


Surely it is not
GOVERNMENT policy to prohibit doctors from doing what is good for their
patients?

?

Do you really want a Government to recommend all the quackery out there
especially at the moment when their credibility is so low.

afaik no-one does.

Start
recommending 101 different things that may, or may not, have a minimal
benefit

You think a factor of 25x difference in survival is minimal? Methinks you've not read the relevant bits of paper.

and come a second wave the likelihood of anyone taking notice of
any further serious and necessary advice would be close to zero.

it would be if you start being silly.

Perhaps we should all start taking anti-malaria drugs - and experience
the side effects of nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, headache,
insomnia, vivid dreams, dizziness, loss of balance, and ringing in the
ear, acute anxiety, depression, restlessness, confusion, severe
dizziness, hallucinations etc. Maybe all of these are rare but in the
whole population a number greater than the covid deaths end up with very
serious side effects - just in case it may help.

In your expert opinion which cocktail of harmless drugs, supplements,
food stuffs etc. should be recommended.

Perhaps we should all start smoking to reduce the risk of catching Covid
19 AND ignore that if infected there is a greater risk of dying or
having other life changing outcomes. (depends on which study you read)

Perhaps the best advice a Government could do is to tell the 20% of the
population who are obese or serious overweight to lose the weight in
order to reduce the risk of a life changing event if catching the virus.
Perhaps they should introduce food ration cards to help with this, just
as a sensible precaution?

You sure love silly advice.


NT



--
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On Thu, 23 Jul 2020 06:55:32 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread


--
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"You are still an idiot and an embarrassment to your country. No wonder
we shipped the likes of you out of the British Isles. Perhaps stupidity
and criminality is inherited after all?"
Message-ID:

On Thu, 23 Jul 2020 06:57:07 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

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MID:

wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 22 July 2020 21:57:16 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
tabbypurr wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 22 July 2020 10:19:23 UTC+1, Pancho wrote:

Yes I have heard the multivitamins argument for 40 years. I've not
seen
strong research to support it.

Maybe take a look at Health Defence by Dr Paul Clayton.

Thats not strong research.

you haven't even seen it

Wrong, as always.

On Thu, 23 Jul 2020 07:35:07 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
FredXX to Rodent Speed:
"You are still an idiot and an embarrassment to your country. No wonder
we shipped the likes of you out of the British Isles. Perhaps stupidity
and criminality is inherited after all?"
Message-ID:

On Wednesday, 22 July 2020 22:10:15 UTC+1, alan_m wrote:
On 22/07/2020 21:55, tabbypurr wrote:

You think a factor of 25x difference in survival is minimal? Methinks you've not read the relevant bits of paper.

Wow 25x!

I'm now convinced

you've looked at the studies? Why are you convinced?

and seeing as you have already done the research which
recommendations are you making, and presumably following?

I thought I said what I'm following. Do you have something of substance to tell us?


NT

On 23/07/2020 03:01, wrote:
On Wednesday, 22 July 2020 22:10:15 UTC+1, alan_m wrote:
On 22/07/2020 21:55, tabbypurr wrote:

You think a factor of 25x difference in survival is minimal? Methinks you've not read the relevant bits of paper.

Wow 25x!

I'm now convinced

you've looked at the studies? Why are you convinced?

I obviously have been reading the wrong articles where the speculation
from the studies is at best statistically insignificant or the
conclusions from the studies or research are contradicted a few weeks
later by others.

From this I came to the conclusion that possibly any dietary or medical
drugs that I could take were likely to only have a negligible effect
with regards the Covid 19 virus.

You have enlightened me by claiming a 25 times better chance of not
catching the virus, or perhaps more accurately, if caught a 25 times
better chance of surviving without complications.


and seeing as you have already done the research which
recommendations are you making, and presumably following?

I thought I said what I'm following.

I seemed to have missed all of your postings where you have highlighted
these impressive improvements to prevent detrimental change of life
outcomes.

Please just list what you are taking as a result of your research.

I see vitamin D supplements and possibly multi-vitamins but surely these
would only have a negligible effect on any covid 19 outcome. From where
do the real 25x improvements come from?


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

In article ,
alan_m wrote:
On 22/07/2020 14:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:



You must be a very staunch Tory to defend the way this government has
handled things. Given they could hardly have done worse.


I think we are all relieved that we didn't get Corbyn in charge.

A very staunch Tory reponse.

"We are very sorry we cocked up handling the Covid problem. But in our
defence we very very sincerely *think* Corbyn would have handled it worse.
Corbyn being the bench mark we judge everything by. We would make it
Trump, but that would upset too many of our supporters"

--
*A journey of a thousand sites begins with a single click *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thursday, 23 July 2020 10:57:12 UTC+1, alan_m wrote:
On 23/07/2020 03:01, tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 22 July 2020 22:10:15 UTC+1, alan_m wrote:
On 22/07/2020 21:55, tabbypurr wrote:

You think a factor of 25x difference in survival is minimal? Methinks you've not read the relevant bits of paper.

Wow 25x!

I'm now convinced

you've looked at the studies? Why are you convinced?

I obviously have been reading the wrong articles where the speculation
from the studies is at best statistically insignificant or the
conclusions from the studies or research are contradicted a few weeks
later by others.

As always one has to assess each study, since so much is in reality junk science.

From this I came to the conclusion that possibly any dietary or medical
drugs that I could take were likely to only have a negligible effect
with regards the Covid 19 virus.

You have enlightened me by claiming a 25 times better chance of not
catching the virus, or perhaps more accurately, if caught a 25 times
better chance of surviving without complications.


and seeing as you have already done the research which
recommendations are you making, and presumably following?

I thought I said what I'm following.

I seemed to have missed all of your postings where you have highlighted
these impressive improvements to prevent detrimental change of life
outcomes.

Please just list what you are taking as a result of your research.

I see vitamin D supplements and possibly multi-vitamins but surely these
would only have a negligible effect on any covid 19 outcome. From where
do the real 25x improvements come from?

With respect if you've been following the subject you'll know where the 25x mortality rate difference came from. Are you saying you don't?


NT

Wrote in message:
On Thursday, 23 July 2020 10:57:12 UTC+1, alan_m wrote:
On 23/07/2020 03:01, tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 22 July 2020 22:10:15 UTC+1, alan_m wrote:
On 22/07/2020 21:55, tabbypurr wrote:

You think a factor of 25x difference in survival is minimal? Methinks you've not read the relevant bits of paper.

Wow 25x!

I'm now convinced

you've looked at the studies? Why are you convinced?

I obviously have been reading the wrong articles where the speculation
from the studies is at best statistically insignificant or the
conclusions from the studies or research are contradicted a few weeks
later by others.

As always one has to assess each study, since so much is in reality junk science.

From this I came to the conclusion that possibly any dietary or medical
drugs that I could take were likely to only have a negligible effect
with regards the Covid 19 virus.

You have enlightened me by claiming a 25 times better chance of not
catching the virus, or perhaps more accurately, if caught a 25 times
better chance of surviving without complications.


and seeing as you have already done the research which
recommendations are you making, and presumably following?

I thought I said what I'm following.

I seemed to have missed all of your postings where you have highlighted
these impressive improvements to prevent detrimental change of life
outcomes.

Please just list what you are taking as a result of your research.

I see vitamin D supplements and possibly multi-vitamins but surely these
would only have a negligible effect on any covid 19 outcome. From where
do the real 25x improvements come from?

With respect if you've been following the subject you'll know where the 25x mortality rate difference came from. Are you saying you don't?


NT


More superlative contributions from the de facto armchair expert...

--
Jimk


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On 23/07/2020 18:40, wrote:



With respect if you've been following the subject you'll know where the 25x mortality rate difference came from. Are you saying you don't?



You were advocating not repeating any errors of the past that have
resulted in a much greater death toll per million of the population than
in most comparable countries (population and culture wise).

You indicate that you now know from all your research what to do in the
future and you criticise politicians for not implementing these measures
now.

What measures should be implemented now that are not already in place?


--
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"alan_m" wrote in message
...
On 23/07/2020 18:40, wrote:



With respect if you've been following the subject you'll know where the
25x mortality rate difference came from. Are you saying you don't?



You were advocating not repeating any errors of the past that have
resulted in a much greater death toll per million of the population than
in most comparable countries (population and culture wise).

You indicate that you now know from all your research what to do in the
future and you criticise politicians for not implementing these measures
now.

What measures should be implemented now that are not already in place?

Quarantine of everyone entering the country for 14 days, in quarantine
hotels and dont use commercial security to run those quarantine hotels.

Cancel the relaxation of the lockdown until there has been no
virus found for 3 weeks.

Bin the terminally stupid encouragement of people to use
pubs and restaurants by a lower VAT for those.

On Fri, 24 Jul 2020 05:58:37 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile cretin's latest troll**** unread

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Message-ID:

On Thursday, 23 July 2020 20:04:43 UTC+1, alan_m wrote:
On 23/07/2020 18:40, tabbypurr wrote:



With respect if you've been following the subject you'll know where the 25x mortality rate difference came from. Are you saying you don't?



You were advocating not repeating any errors of the past that have
resulted in a much greater death toll per million of the population than
in most comparable countries (population and culture wise).

You indicate that you now know from all your research what to do in the
future and you criticise politicians for not implementing these measures
now.

What measures should be implemented now that are not already in place?

I did already answer that.
You've not answered if you know where the 25x figure came from.


NT