Flame sensing electrodes
Anyone know how these work and why my tumble dryer has a long central
electrode in the flame path with an adjacent earth pin that is angled so that theres a small gap between the end of the insulated electrode and the end of the earth pin. I ask as all the replacement ones I see for sale only have a single insulated electrode and no earth one. Im assuming that the electronics for these must be a bit different and a single electrode type wont work in mine. Its a White Knight gas tumble dryer. Only 30 years old now so Id like to get a few more years out of it but Crosslee dont stock spares for this machine any more and I havent seen anything similar on line. The present earth pin has suffered some erosion/corrosion and its not always sensing the flame. Hopefully, heres a picture. https://photos.app.goo.gl/HGzbwdk6Lw1zMNAb9 Tim -- Please don't feed the trolls |
Flame sensing electrodes
On 13/03/2020 17:40, Tim+ wrote:
Anyone know how these work and why my tumble dryer has a long central electrode in the flame path with an adjacent earth pin that is angled so that theres a small gap between the end of the insulated electrode and the end of the earth pin. Thermocouple for flame detection. Is the other electrode an earth pin or the electrode for the spark and is actually connected to a HV generating circuit. -- mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk |
Flame sensing electrodes
On 13/03/2020 18:53, alan_m wrote:
On 13/03/2020 17:40, Tim+ wrote: Anyone know how these work and why my tumble dryer has a long central electrode in the flame path with an adjacent earth pin thatÂ* is angled so that theres a small gap between the end of the insulated electrode and the end of the earth pin. Thermocouple for flame detection. Is the other electrode an earth pin or the electrode for the spark and is actually connected to a HV generating circuit. Sorry I missed the photo - which looks like a spark electrode to me rather than a flame sensor. -- mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk |
Flame sensing electrodes
alan_m wrote:
On 13/03/2020 17:40, Tim+ wrote: Anyone know how these work and why my tumble dryer has a long central electrode in the flame path with an adjacent earth pin that is angled so that theres a small gap between the end of the insulated electrode and the end of the earth pin. Thermocouple for flame detection. Um no. Its electronic. Is the other electrode an earth pin or the electrode for the spark and is actually connected to a HV generating circuit. Its definitely NOT an ignition electrode, thats handled by a separate electrode next to the burner. Having said that, if it looks like an ignition electrode, maybe Ill have more luck searching for one of those that I can repurpose. The machine is working again after cleaning and regapping the electrode. I think the main problem is that the earth electrode has eroded so much, it tends to sag in the heat and close up the gap. When it gets too small, it doesnt seem to detect the flame any more. Tim -- Please don't feed the trolls |
Flame sensing electrodes
Flame sensing is employed in quite a few boilers and heating appliances. There's a pretty good description of the principles in Wikipedia so I'll refrain from repeating it here.
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Flame sensing electrodes
Cynic wrote:
Flame sensing is employed in quite a few boilers and heating appliances. There's a pretty good description of the principles in Wikipedia so I'll refrain from repeating it here. Yeah, I had seen that but it doesnt really explain why mine has an earth electrode and none of the new ones do. Tim -- Please don't feed the trolls |
Flame sensing electrodes
Chris Hogg explained on 13/03/2020 :
Looks like a spark ignition electrode, but if you're sure it's the ignition detector, then within a flame there's some ionisation I thought ionisation detection was a more recent method than as long ago as 30 years? The common method back then was the thermocouple method of flame detection. |
Flame sensing electrodes
Harry Bloomfield, Esq. wrote:
Chris Hogg explained on 13/03/2020 : Looks like a spark ignition electrode, but if you're sure it's the ignition detector, then within a flame there's some ionisation I thought ionisation detection was a more recent method than as long ago as 30 years? The common method back then was the thermocouple method of flame detection. Fecking hell. How many time do I have to say that its NOT a thermocouple? Ive owned and serviced this machine for 30 years now. I DO know the difference. Year of manufacture. https://photos.app.goo.gl/jA8HLZCgbJos84ZF8 Annotated wiring diagram https://photos.app.goo.gl/pptJcPpJdxyBgbEk9 Tim -- Please don't feed the trolls |
Flame sensing electrodes
Yeah, I had seen that but it doesnt really explain why mine has an earthÂ*
electrode and none of the new ones do.Â* Without being there to actually see it I recall there were a few burners that employed the same electrode as both ignition (arc) electrode and flame sense electrode. I can see the earth electrode having a purpose in positioning one end of the ignition arc. For the newer models it may be that reality proved that refinement unnecessary. |
Flame sensing electrodes
Ignore my previous reply about shared duty electrodes. I hadn't looked at your wiring diagram.
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Flame sensing electrodes
On Friday, 13 March 2020 19:09:50 UTC, Tim+ wrote:
alan_m wrote: On 13/03/2020 17:40, Tim+ wrote: Anyone know how these work and why my tumble dryer has a long central electrode in the flame path with an adjacent earth pin that is angled so that theres a small gap between the end of the insulated electrode and the end of the earth pin. Thermocouple for flame detection. Um no. Its electronic. Is the other electrode an earth pin or the electrode for the spark and is actually connected to a HV generating circuit. Its definitely NOT an ignition electrode, thats handled by a separate electrode next to the burner. Having said that, if it looks like an ignition electrode, maybe Ill have more luck searching for one of those that I can repurpose. The machine is working again after cleaning and regapping the electrode. I think the main problem is that the earth electrode has eroded so much, it tends to sag in the heat and close up the gap. When it gets too small, it doesnt seem to detect the flame any more. Tim What's your difficulty with adding more metal to that one? NT |
Flame sensing electrodes
On Friday, 13 March 2020 17:40:19 UTC, Tim+ wrote:
Anyone know how these work and why my tumble dryer has a long central electrode in the flame path with an adjacent earth pin that is angled so that theres a small gap between the end of the insulated electrode and the end of the earth pin. I ask as all the replacement ones I see for sale only have a single insulated electrode and no earth one. Im assuming that the electronics for these must be a bit different and a single electrode type wont work in mine. Its a White Knight gas tumble dryer. Only 30 years old now so Id like to get a few more years out of it but Crosslee dont stock spares for this machine any more and I havent seen anything similar on line. The present earth pin has suffered some erosion/corrosion and its not always sensing the flame. Hopefully, heres a picture. https://photos.app.goo.gl/HGzbwdk6Lw1zMNAb9 The resistance path in a flame is very low. The probe is measuring the absence or not of the flame by measuring resistance. Quite often the probe is just a an ordinary spark electrode used for this purpose. |
Flame sensing electrodes
Tim+ submitted this idea :
Fecking hell. How many time do I have to say that its NOT a thermocouple? Ive owned and serviced this machine for 30 years now. I DO know the difference. Comments like that will deter people from helping you! At 30 years, you have maybe had your monies worth out of it. Is the probe damaged or broken, if not then perhaps the electronics have failed. |
Flame sensing electrodes
On 14/03/2020 07:51, harry wrote:
On Friday, 13 March 2020 17:40:19 UTC, Tim+ wrote: Anyone know how these work and why my tumble dryer has a long central electrode in the flame path with an adjacent earth pin that is angled so that theres a small gap between the end of the insulated electrode and the end of the earth pin. I ask as all the replacement ones I see for sale only have a single insulated electrode and no earth one. Im assuming that the electronics for these must be a bit different and a single electrode type wont work in mine. Its a White Knight gas tumble dryer. Only 30 years old now so Id like to get a few more years out of it but Crosslee dont stock spares for this machine any more and I havent seen anything similar on line. The present earth pin has suffered some erosion/corrosion and its not always sensing the flame. Hopefully, heres a picture. https://photos.app.goo.gl/HGzbwdk6Lw1zMNAb9 The resistance path in a flame is very low. The probe is measuring the absence or not of the flame by measuring resistance. Quite often the probe is just a an ordinary spark electrode used for this purpose. The key thing about a flame sensing electrode+flame is that it acts as a diode and will only conduct current in one direction. If it conducted in both directions it wouldn't be possible to discern between a normal "flame present" or a "flame missing and the electrodes shorted" |
Flame sensing electrodes
On Saturday, 14 March 2020 08:50:43 UTC, wrote:
Tim+ submitted this idea : Fecking hell. How many time do I have to say that its NOT a thermocouple? Ive owned and serviced this machine for 30 years now. I DO know the difference. Comments like that will deter people from helping you! At 30 years, you have maybe had your monies worth out of it. Is the probe damaged or broken, if not then perhaps the electronics have failed. I suspect the op knows more about this than you realise. |
Flame sensing electrodes
Harry Bloomfield, Esq. wrote:
Tim+ submitted this idea : Fecking hell. How many time do I have to say that its NOT a thermocouple? Ive owned and serviced this machine for 30 years now. I DO know the difference. Comments like that will deter people from helping you! At 30 years, you have maybe had your monies worth out of it. Is the probe damaged or broken, if not then perhaps the electronics have failed. Well thats probably true but I do get very frustrated when I offer FACTS about a machine Ive owned for 30 years and yet folk insist on offering fiction about an appliance theyre clearly not familiar with. Tim -- Please don't feed the trolls |
Flame sensing electrodes
On Saturday, 14 March 2020 10:00:22 UTC, John Kenyon wrote:
On 14/03/2020 07:51, harry wrote: On Friday, 13 March 2020 17:40:19 UTC, Tim+ wrote: Anyone know how these work and why my tumble dryer has a long central electrode in the flame path with an adjacent earth pin that is angled so that theres a small gap between the end of the insulated electrode and the end of the earth pin. I ask as all the replacement ones I see for sale only have a single insulated electrode and no earth one. Im assuming that the electronics for these must be a bit different and a single electrode type wont work in mine. Its a White Knight gas tumble dryer. Only 30 years old now so Id like to get a few more years out of it but Crosslee dont stock spares for this machine any more and I havent seen anything similar on line. The present earth pin has suffered some erosion/corrosion and its not always sensing the flame. Hopefully, heres a picture. https://photos.app.goo.gl/HGzbwdk6Lw1zMNAb9 The resistance path in a flame is very low. The probe is measuring the absence or not of the flame by measuring resistance. Quite often the probe is just a an ordinary spark electrode used for this purpose. The key thing about a flame sensing electrode+flame is that it acts as a diode and will only conduct current in one direction. If it conducted in both directions it wouldn't be possible to discern between a normal "flame present" or a "flame missing and the electrodes shorted" The gap at the electrode is large, unlikely to bridge with crap. |
Flame sensing electrodes
On 14/03/2020 11:49, Tim+ wrote:
Harry Bloomfield, Esq. wrote: Tim+ submitted this idea : Fecking hell. How many time do I have to say that its NOT a thermocouple? Ive owned and serviced this machine for 30 years now. I DO know the difference. Comments like that will deter people from helping you! At 30 years, you have maybe had your monies worth out of it. Is the probe damaged or broken, if not then perhaps the electronics have failed. Well thats probably true but I do get very frustrated when I offer FACTS about a machine Ive owned for 30 years and yet folk insist on offering fiction about an appliance theyre clearly not familiar with. Tim I feel the same about people who have never been to where I live telling me what its like and how its populations are.. -- "The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him." - Leo Tolstoy |
Flame sensing electrodes
John Kenyon wrote:
On 14/03/2020 07:51, harry wrote: On Friday, 13 March 2020 17:40:19 UTC, Tim+ wrote: Anyone know how these work and why my tumble dryer has a long central electrode in the flame path with an adjacent earth pin that is angled so that theres a small gap between the end of the insulated electrode and the end of the earth pin. I ask as all the replacement ones I see for sale only have a single insulated electrode and no earth one. Im assuming that the electronics for these must be a bit different and a single electrode type wont work in mine. Its a White Knight gas tumble dryer. Only 30 years old now so Id like to get a few more years out of it but Crosslee dont stock spares for this machine any more and I havent seen anything similar on line. The present earth pin has suffered some erosion/corrosion and its not always sensing the flame. Hopefully, heres a picture. https://photos.app.goo.gl/HGzbwdk6Lw1zMNAb9 The resistance path in a flame is very low. The probe is measuring the absence or not of the flame by measuring resistance. Quite often the probe is just a an ordinary spark electrode used for this purpose. The key thing about a flame sensing electrode+flame is that it acts as a diode and will only conduct current in one direction. If it conducted in both directions it wouldn't be possible to discern between a normal "flame present" or a "flame missing and the electrodes shorted" How close does the gap need to be to the flame for this effect to work? The electrodes are several inches from the burner. I cant view the burner in operation though to confirm how far the flame extends. I dont think its far though. Tim -- Please don't feed the trolls |
Flame sensing electrodes
On Saturday, 14 March 2020 13:44:13 UTC, Tim+ wrote:
John Kenyon wrote: On 14/03/2020 07:51, harry wrote: On Friday, 13 March 2020 17:40:19 UTC, Tim+ wrote: Anyone know how these work and why my tumble dryer has a long central electrode in the flame path with an adjacent earth pin that is angled so that theres a small gap between the end of the insulated electrode and the end of the earth pin. I ask as all the replacement ones I see for sale only have a single insulated electrode and no earth one. Im assuming that the electronics for these must be a bit different and a single electrode type wont work in mine. Its a White Knight gas tumble dryer. Only 30 years old now so Id like to get a few more years out of it but Crosslee dont stock spares for this machine any more and I havent seen anything similar on line. The present earth pin has suffered some erosion/corrosion and its not always sensing the flame. Hopefully, heres a picture. https://photos.app.goo.gl/HGzbwdk6Lw1zMNAb9 The resistance path in a flame is very low. The probe is measuring the absence or not of the flame by measuring resistance. Quite often the probe is just a an ordinary spark electrode used for this purpose. The key thing about a flame sensing electrode+flame is that it acts as a diode and will only conduct current in one direction. If it conducted in both directions it wouldn't be possible to discern between a normal "flame present" or a "flame missing and the electrodes shorted" How close does the gap need to be to the flame for this effect to work? The electrodes are several inches from the burner. I cant view the burner in operation though to confirm how far the flame extends. I dont think its far though. It has to be in the flame. Obviously. They are usually found in blown gas burners (commercial/industrial) |
Flame sensing electrodes
Virtually nothing for the past 30 years. Its not a Hotpoint!
Its well designed and the construction makes it simple and easy to service. I can pull out the burner assembly, the motor and the fan with nothing more than a single cross headed screwdriver in under 10 minutes. The logic controls for ignition, ignition failure and overheat conditions make it very €œfail safe€. It has two gas solenoids in series making the potential for gas escape in the event of a leaking solenoid exceedingly remote. Im very happy using it at night or when out of he house. Dont think Id feel the same about an electric one. Tim Brian Gaff \(Sofa 2\) wrote: This appliance redefines the term old to me. I cannot help but wonder what else might be happening in the unit. Gas, electricity, water and textiles and a flame, what could possibly go wrong! Brian -- Please don't feed the trolls |
Flame sensing electrodes
harry wrote:
On Saturday, 14 March 2020 13:44:13 UTC, Tim+ wrote: John Kenyon wrote: On 14/03/2020 07:51, harry wrote: On Friday, 13 March 2020 17:40:19 UTC, Tim+ wrote: Anyone know how these work and why my tumble dryer has a long central electrode in the flame path with an adjacent earth pin that is angled so that theres a small gap between the end of the insulated electrode and the end of the earth pin. I ask as all the replacement ones I see for sale only have a single insulated electrode and no earth one. Im assuming that the electronics for these must be a bit different and a single electrode type wont work in mine. Its a White Knight gas tumble dryer. Only 30 years old now so Id like to get a few more years out of it but Crosslee dont stock spares for this machine any more and I havent seen anything similar on line. The present earth pin has suffered some erosion/corrosion and its not always sensing the flame. Hopefully, heres a picture. https://photos.app.goo.gl/HGzbwdk6Lw1zMNAb9 The resistance path in a flame is very low. The probe is measuring the absence or not of the flame by measuring resistance. Quite often the probe is just a an ordinary spark electrode used for this purpose. The key thing about a flame sensing electrode+flame is that it acts as a diode and will only conduct current in one direction. If it conducted in both directions it wouldn't be possible to discern between a normal "flame present" or a "flame missing and the electrodes shorted" How close does the gap need to be to the flame for this effect to work? The electrodes are several inches from the burner. I cant view the burner in operation though to confirm how far the flame extends. I dont think its far though. It has to be in the flame. Obviously. They are usually found in blown gas burners (commercial/industrial) Well in that case I suspect its not using the diode properties. Im pretty sure its well out of the flame. I think when it next plays up Ill just make a new earth point next to the tip of the present electrode and dispense with the eroded one, possibly just a long slim nut and bolt through the burner casing. Tim -- Please don't feed the trolls |
Flame sensing electrodes
Tim+ has brought this to us :
How close does the gap need to be to the flame for this effect to work? The electrodes are several inches from the burner. I cant view the burner in operation though to confirm how far the flame extends. I dont think its far though. It has to be actually in the flame, to detect ionisation. |
Flame sensing electrodes
Tim+ was thinking very hard :
Well in that case I suspect its not using the diode properties. Im pretty sure its well out of the flame. Are your certain you are not confusing the ignition electrode with the flame detection one? The ignition one does not need to be in the flame, only in the unlit gas. The ionisation electrode tend to wear more rapidly the the ignition ones. |
Flame sensing electrodes
Harry Bloomfield, Esq. wrote:
Tim+ was thinking very hard : Well in that case I suspect its not using the diode properties. Im pretty sure its well out of the flame. Are your certain you are not confusing the ignition electrode with the flame detection one? Absolutely. I have the service manual. Parts are clearly labelled. Tim -- Please don't feed the trolls |
Flame sensing electrodes
On 13/03/2020 20:49, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Chris Hogg explained on 13/03/2020 : Looks like a spark ignition electrode, but if you're sure it's the ignition detector, then within a flame there's some ionisation I thought ionisation detection was a more recent method than as long ago as 30 years? The common method back then was the thermocouple method of flame detection. No - my 30-year-old Baxi Solo boiler uses flame ionisation to detect when the pilot is lit, and then operate a relay to turn on the main burner. -- Cheers, Roger ____________ Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom checked. |
Flame sensing electrodes
On 14/03/2020 12:48, harry wrote:
On Saturday, 14 March 2020 10:00:22 UTC, John Kenyon wrote: On 14/03/2020 07:51, harry wrote: On Friday, 13 March 2020 17:40:19 UTC, Tim+ wrote: Anyone know how these work and why my tumble dryer has a long central electrode in the flame path with an adjacent earth pin that is angled so that theres a small gap between the end of the insulated electrode and the end of the earth pin. I ask as all the replacement ones I see for sale only have a single insulated electrode and no earth one. Im assuming that the electronics for these must be a bit different and a single electrode type wont work in mine. Its a White Knight gas tumble dryer. Only 30 years old now so Id like to get a few more years out of it but Crosslee dont stock spares for this machine any more and I havent seen anything similar on line. The present earth pin has suffered some erosion/corrosion and its not always sensing the flame. Hopefully, heres a picture. https://photos.app.goo.gl/HGzbwdk6Lw1zMNAb9 The resistance path in a flame is very low. The probe is measuring the absence or not of the flame by measuring resistance. Quite often the probe is just a an ordinary spark electrode used for this purpose. The key thing about a flame sensing electrode+flame is that it acts as a diode and will only conduct current in one direction. If it conducted in both directions it wouldn't be possible to discern between a normal "flame present" or a "flame missing and the electrodes shorted" The gap at the electrode is large, unlikely to bridge with crap. "Unlikely" does not mean "impossible" - it is still one of the failure modes which, which if not detected or interpreted incorrectly could lead to an unsafe condition., (along with crap coating the electrode insulation with a resistive coating, and corrosion leading one electrode coming into contact with its counterpart.) |
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