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Default Battery not charging light

Hi All,

Back in the dark ages (60s,70s, 80s) cars had little bulbs that would come on to tell you your battery was no longer charging.

There have been a few people on the Peugeot007 self
Help FB group Im on whose alternators have died, but their cars not charging light hasnt illuminated (despite its passing its POST before the problem and after its been rectified (see what I did there).

Got me to thinking, how were these bulbs driven in the past (i.e, what electrics / electronics / circuit lit them when charging stopped)?

And how are they supposed to work in modern Cars?

On the 007, I believe its an LED and I SUSPECT its fed from the ECU??

Anyone know?
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Default Battery not charging light

On 09/03/2020 17:46, Chris Green wrote:
wrote:
Hi All,

Back in the dark ages (60s,70s, 80s) cars had little bulbs that would come
on to tell you your battery was no longer charging.

There have been a few people on the Peugeot007 self
Help FB group Im on whose alternators have died, but their cars not charging
light hasnt illuminated (despite its passing its POST before the problem
and after its been rectified (see what I did there).

Got me to thinking, how were these bulbs driven in the past (i.e, what
electrics / electronics / circuit lit them when charging stopped)?

Most alternators (and also dynamos as were used in 60s and before) had
a specific terminal to drive the 'charging' lamp. It monitored the
voltage between the alternator/dynamo output and the battery.


And how are they supposed to work in modern Cars?

On the 007, I believe its an LED and I SUSPECT its fed from the ECU??

On modern 'all electronic' cars it needs to do exactly the same job
but is presumably down to the designer exactly how it's driven.

The bulb was connected between +12V after the ignition switch and the
special terminal on the alternator or dynamo. If the latter was working
there was 12V on that terminal so the light went out. If there was no
output from the alternator or dynamo the terminal would drop to 0V
(chassis). That would bring the bulb on.

This meant that a connection to the alternator/dynamo side of the bulb
could be used to feed a relay that could connect a second battery so it
got charged when the engine was running but was otherwise isolated.

Bill
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Default Battery not charging light

Adam,

Ill bet it works on Toy Yodas, but then they are bullet proof, so Ill probably never know (last one did 200,000 miles In 15 years (Petrol 2.0), and the alternator and the rest of the electrics bar a battery or two were as new.

Lee,

yes I know how awful / poor quality PSA cars are!

And know of lots of resets, though Ive not had to do the BSI one so far.
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Default Battery not charging light

Bill,

12V on both sides in normal operation.

Clever!
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I'd imagine one could design a circuit with a two colour led, where its red
one way and green the other and use an op amp and a low value resistor as a
shunt and measure the polarity with the amp. Crude, but should work, but
might need to be set up.
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Chris Green" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Hi All,

Back in the dark ages (60s,70s, 80s) cars had little bulbs that would
come
on to tell you your battery was no longer charging.

There have been a few people on the Peugeot'007 self
Help FB group I'm on whose alternators have died, but their car's not
charging
light hasn't illuminated (despite its passing its POST before the problem
and after its been rectified (see what I did there).

Got me to thinking, how were these bulbs driven in the past (i.e, what
electrics / electronics / circuit lit them when charging stopped)?

Most alternators (and also dynamos as were used in 60s and before) had
a specific terminal to drive the 'charging' lamp. It monitored the
voltage between the alternator/dynamo output and the battery.


And how are they supposed to work in "modern" Cars?

On the '007, I believe it's an LED and I SUSPECT it's fed from the ECU??

On modern 'all electronic' cars it needs to do exactly the same job
but is presumably down to the designer exactly how it's driven.

--
Chris Green



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Default Battery not charging light

Not really our old motor caravan had something like that but also a manual
bypass if you wanted it.

Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
wrote in message
...
Bill,

12V on both sides in normal operation.

Clever!



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Default Battery not charging light

Brian Gaff (Sofa 2) has brought this to us :
I'd imagine one could design a circuit with a two colour led, where its red
one way and green the other and use an op amp and a low value resistor as a
shunt and measure the polarity with the amp. Crude, but should work, but
might need to be set up.


A pair of back to back LED's, with the centre point connected to the
point of polarity interest, and either end connected one to +ve, other
to -ve makes a good simple indicator. A bypass diode would be needed in
parallel with each LED, plus resistors to limit current.


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Brian Gaff (Sofa 2) wrote

Well a manual circuit should be pretty trivial as current will flow down a
wire in one direction and in the other when its discharging. They used to
fit meters with a centre 0 and you could then tell exactly what was going
on and when.


You still can with a much cheaper OBD2 device;

wrote in message
...
Hi All,

Back in the dark ages (60s,70s, 80s) cars had little bulbs that would come
on to tell you your battery was no longer charging.

There have been a few people on the Peugeot'007 self
Help FB group I'm on whose alternators have died, but their car's not
charging light hasn't illuminated (despite its passing its POST before the
problem and after its been rectified (see what I did there).

Got me to thinking, how were these bulbs driven in the past (i.e, what
electrics / electronics / circuit lit them when charging stopped)?

And how are they supposed to work in "modern" Cars?

On the '007, I believe it's an LED and I SUSPECT it's fed from the ECU??

Anyone know?

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Default Battery not charging light

Brian Gaff (Sofa 2) wrote

I'd imagine one could design a circuit with a two colour led, where its
red one way and green the other and use an op amp and a low value resistor
as a shunt and measure the polarity with the amp. Crude, but should work,
but might need to be set up.


Makes more sense to use an OBD2 device with a fully
configurable display of the charge and discharge current
and even an intelligent app that keeps track of what
should be happening with the other engine and time
since starting detail so you dont have to keep track
of that mentally.

"Chris Green" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Hi All,

Back in the dark ages (60s,70s, 80s) cars had little bulbs that would
come
on to tell you your battery was no longer charging.

There have been a few people on the Peugeot'007 self
Help FB group I'm on whose alternators have died, but their car's not
charging
light hasn't illuminated (despite its passing its POST before the
problem
and after its been rectified (see what I did there).

Got me to thinking, how were these bulbs driven in the past (i.e, what
electrics / electronics / circuit lit them when charging stopped)?

Most alternators (and also dynamos as were used in 60s and before) had
a specific terminal to drive the 'charging' lamp. It monitored the
voltage between the alternator/dynamo output and the battery.


And how are they supposed to work in "modern" Cars?

On the '007, I believe it's an LED and I SUSPECT it's fed from the ECU??

On modern 'all electronic' cars it needs to do exactly the same job
but is presumably down to the designer exactly how it's driven.

--
Chris Green



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Default Battery not charging light

On 09/03/2020 21:12, Steve Walker wrote:
On 09/03/2020 19:25, Lee wrote:
On 09/03/2020 16:45, wrote:
Hi All,

Back in the dark ages (60s,70s, 80s) cars had little bulbs that would
come on to tell you your battery was no longer charging.

There have been a few people on the Peugeot007 self
Help FB group Im on whose alternators have died, but their cars not
charging light hasnt illuminated (despite its passing its POST
before the problem and after its been rectified (see what I did there).

Got me to thinking, how were these bulbs driven in the past (i.e,
what electrics / electronics / circuit lit them when charging stopped)?

And how are they supposed to work in modern Cars?

On the 007, I believe its an LED and I SUSPECT its fed from the ECU??

Anyone know?


Fed via the BSI on most French things, do yourself a favour and don't
look up Pug/citroen BSI/BCM failures...

Reset procedure (without the appropriate diag tool) is interesting*
though

*Almost Babel fish like


What? Place the satchel in front of the panel, with the junk mail inside
it, hang your dressing-gown on the hook, place the towel over the drain
and press the dispenser button?

SteveW


I like this group



I had to reset a BSI recencently becuase the wipers were stuck on and
the headlights wouldn't go out, after a battery change...

Just in case anyone is interested, the BSI reset is:

"Put the driver's window down, lift the bonnet and ensure all equipment
is switched off.

Ensure all doors are closed and remove key from the ignition.

Wait for 3 minutes, disconnect the vehicle battery and wait 15 seconds.

Reconnect the vehicle battery, wait a further 10 seconds (do not open
doors.).

Switch on the side lights through the driver's window.

Switch on the ignition and check system's functionality.

Hold lock button on key down for 10 seconds.

Remove key open & close door test central locking system.

Start the engine and complete the system's check.

Failure to follow this procedure could result in incorrect operation of
many BSI related items."
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"Lee" wrote in message
...
On 09/03/2020 21:12, Steve Walker wrote:
On 09/03/2020 19:25, Lee wrote:
On 09/03/2020 16:45, wrote:
Hi All,

Back in the dark ages (60s,70s, 80s) cars had little bulbs that would
come on to tell you your battery was no longer charging.

There have been a few people on the Peugeot007 self
Help FB group Im on whose alternators have died, but their cars not
charging light hasnt illuminated (despite its passing its POST before
the problem and after its been rectified (see what I did there).

Got me to thinking, how were these bulbs driven in the past (i.e, what
electrics / electronics / circuit lit them when charging stopped)?

And how are they supposed to work in modern Cars?

On the 007, I believe its an LED and I SUSPECT its fed from the
ECU??

Anyone know?


Fed via the BSI on most French things, do yourself a favour and don't
look up Pug/citroen BSI/BCM failures...

Reset procedure (without the appropriate diag tool) is interesting*
though

*Almost Babel fish like


What? Place the satchel in front of the panel, with the junk mail inside
it, hang your dressing-gown on the hook, place the towel over the drain
and press the dispenser button?

SteveW


I like this group



I had to reset a BSI recencently becuase the wipers were stuck on and the
headlights wouldn't go out, after a battery change...

Just in case anyone is interested, the BSI reset is:

"Put the driver's window down, lift the bonnet and ensure all equipment is
switched off.

Ensure all doors are closed and remove key from the ignition.

Wait for 3 minutes, disconnect the vehicle battery and wait 15 seconds.

Reconnect the vehicle battery, wait a further 10 seconds (do not open
doors.).

Switch on the side lights through the driver's window.

Switch on the ignition and check system's functionality.

Hold lock button on key down for 10 seconds.

Remove key open & close door test central locking system.

Start the engine and complete the system's check.

Failure to follow this procedure could result in incorrect operation of
many BSI related items."


Fark, whoever 'designed' that heap of **** should
be publicly crucified. Alleged to be the worst form
of execution the world has ever devised.

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senile troll****

09:31!!! And the senile cretin STILL can't sleep! And he's SO miserable,
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Default Battery not charging light

In article ,
wrote:
Got me to thinking, how were these bulbs driven in the past (i.e, what electrics / electronics / circuit lit them when charging stopped)?


And how are they supposed to work in modern Cars?


Depends how modern and complex. Some have alternators under the control of
the engine ECU.

If a more basic self contained unit, the norm is 12v from the battery goes
to the warning light, and the ground side of that to the alternator
regulator. Without that 12v, the alternator won't start charging.
Effectively that alternator connection supplies a ground to the warning
light engine stopped, which moves to +12v as the alternator starts
charging, so the light goes out.

--
*A snooze button is a poor substitute for no alarm clock at all *

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On 09/03/2020 22:25, Lee wrote:
On 09/03/2020 21:12, Steve Walker wrote:
On 09/03/2020 19:25, Lee wrote:
On 09/03/2020 16:45, wrote:
Hi All,

Back in the dark ages (60s,70s, 80s) cars had little bulbs that
would come on to tell you your battery was no longer charging.

There have been a few people on the Peugeot007 self
Help FB group Im on whose alternators have died, but their cars
not charging light hasnt illuminated (despite its passing its POST
before the problem and after its been rectified (see what I did there).

Got me to thinking, how were these bulbs driven in the past (i.e,
what electrics / electronics / circuit lit them when charging stopped)?

And how are they supposed to work in modern Cars?

On the 007, I believe its an LED and I SUSPECT its fed from the
ECU??

Anyone know?


Fed via the BSI on most French things, do yourself a favour and don't
look up Pug/citroen BSI/BCM failures...

Reset procedure (without the appropriate diag tool) is interesting*
though

*Almost Babel fish like


What? Place the satchel in front of the panel, with the junk mail
inside it, hang your dressing-gown on the hook, place the towel over
the drain and press the dispenser button?

SteveW


I like this group



I had to reset a BSI recencently becuase the wipers were stuck on and
the headlights wouldn't go out, after a battery change...

Just in case anyone is interested, the BSI reset is:

"Put the driver's window down, lift the bonnet and ensure all equipment
is switched off.

Ensure all doors are closed and remove key from the ignition.

Wait for 3 minutes, disconnect the vehicle battery and wait 15 seconds.

Reconnect the vehicle battery, wait a further 10 seconds (do not open
doors.).

Switch on the side lights through the driver's window.

Switch on the ignition and check system's functionality.

Hold lock button on key down for 10 seconds.

Remove key open & close door test central locking system.

Start the engine and complete the system's check.

Failure to follow this procedure could result in incorrect operation of
many BSI related items."


That makes HHGTTG seem almost sensible!

SteveW

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On 09/03/2020 21:53, Brian Gaff (Sofa 2) wrote:
Not really our old motor caravan had something like that but also a manual
bypass if you wanted it.

Brian

What do you mean 'not really'? Not really what? I do wish you would put
whatever it is you're answering at the top. You really are a very
stubborn old man Brian.

Bill
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williamwright wrote
Brian Gaff (Sofa 2) wrote


Not really our old motor caravan had something
like that but also a manual bypass if you wanted it.


I do wish you would put whatever it is you're answering at the top.


He's blind and it isnt as easy for him to do that.

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On 10/03/2020 02:25, Rod Speed wrote:
williamwright wrote
Brian Gaff (Sofa 2) wrote


Not really our old motor caravan had something like that but also a
manual bypass if you wanted it.


I do wish you would put whatever it is you're answering at the top.


He's blind and it isnt as easy for him to do that.


I know he's blind. I've always known it.

Bill
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williamwright wrote
Rod Speed wrote
williamwright wrote
Brian Gaff (Sofa 2) wrote


Not really our old motor caravan had something like that but also a
manual bypass if you wanted it.


I do wish you would put whatever it is you're answering at the top.


He's blind and it isnt as easy for him to do that.


I know he's blind. I've always known it.


So its stupid to be wishing he would stop doing what is more convenient for
him.

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In message , Chris Bartram
writes
On 09/03/2020 16:45, wrote:
Hi All,
Back in the dark ages (60s,70s, 80s) cars had little bulbs that
would come on to tell you your battery was no longer charging.
There have been a few people on the Peugeot007 self
Help FB group Im on whose alternators have died, but their cars
not charging light hasnt illuminated (despite its passing its POST
before the problem and after its been rectified (see what I did there).
Got me to thinking, how were these bulbs driven in the past (i.e,
what electrics / electronics / circuit lit them when charging stopped)?
And how are they supposed to work in modern Cars?
On the 007, I believe its an LED and I SUSPECT its fed from
the ECU??
Anyone know?

In the old days, the bulb fed the (field?) coil on the alternator from
the battery, and the current through it was required to excite the
alternator and start it charging- when it started to do so, the voltage
both sides of the bulb became the same, so it went out. If the bulb
wasn't connected or burnt out, the alternator wouldn't charge at low
RPM- as RPM increased, it would self-excite.


Ha! Just been there.
Ancient tractor with no ignition warning light at start up. Initial
investigation found ample carbon left on alternator brushes so assumed
the fault was elsewhere.
Not so:-(
The alternator slip rings were worn down to the underlying insulation
leaving a narrow strip of copper either side.
As a temporary fix, refacing the brushes regained contact and the system
is temporarily working.

Seems odd the copper wearing faster than carbon but maybe this was a
recon alternator.

--
Tim Lamb


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On 10/03/2020 09:05, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Chris Bartram
writes
On 09/03/2020 16:45, wrote:
Hi All,
*Back in the dark ages (60s,70s, 80s) cars had little bulbs that
would come on to tell you your battery was no longer charging.
*There have been a few people on the Peugeot007 self
Help FB group Im on whose alternators have died, but their cars not
charging light hasnt illuminated (despite its passing its POST
before the problem and after its been rectified (see what I did there).
*Got me to thinking, how were these bulbs driven in the past (i.e,
what electrics / electronics / circuit lit them when charging stopped)?
*And how are they supposed to work in modern Cars?
*On the 007, I believe its an LED and I SUSPECT its fed from the
ECU??
*Anyone know?

In the old days, the bulb fed the (field?) coil on the alternator from
the battery, and the current through it was required to excite the
alternator and start it charging- when it started to do so, the
voltage both sides of the bulb became the same, so it went out. If the
bulb wasn't connected or burnt out, the alternator wouldn't charge at
low RPM- as RPM increased, it would self-excite.


Ha! Just been there.
Ancient tractor with no ignition warning light at start up. Initial
investigation found ample carbon left on alternator brushes so assumed
the fault was elsewhere.
Not so:-(
The alternator slip rings were worn down to the underlying insulation
leaving a narrow strip of copper either side.
As a temporary fix, refacing the brushes regained contact and the system
is temporarily working.

Seems odd the copper wearing faster than carbon but maybe this was a
recon alternator.

Or just on it's 19th set of carbon brushes


--
There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale
returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

Mark Twain
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On Tue, 10 Mar 2020 13:25:34 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
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FLUSH senile asshole's troll****

13:25!!! Good grief, you senile asshole, don't you EVER SLEEP? You've been
up and trolling ALL NIGHT LONG, ALL MORNING and now also ALL AFTERNOON? And
why do you refuse to swallow your Nembutal that you allegedly bought, you
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troll****

Wait, wait! 16:09? Does that mean you have been in bed for TWO AND A HALF
HOURS and now you are up and trolling already, you clinically insane asshole
from Oz? LOL

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In article ,
Tim Lamb wrote:
Ha! Just been there.
Ancient tractor with no ignition warning light at start up. Initial
investigation found ample carbon left on alternator brushes so assumed
the fault was elsewhere.
Not so:-(
The alternator slip rings were worn down to the underlying insulation
leaving a narrow strip of copper either side.
As a temporary fix, refacing the brushes regained contact and the system
is temporarily working.


Seems odd the copper wearing faster than carbon but maybe this was a
recon alternator.


I've fixed quite a few alternators over the years, and never seen severe
slip ring wear. Perhaps the operating conditions of a tractor were the
reason - the fan in the alternator passes air through it. And dust etc
could cause more wear.

IMHO, 90% of alternator faults can be sorted by a new regulator.
Mechanical wear - except at a massive mileage - pretty rare here. The
other about 10% a failed diode, fixed by replacing the pack.

--
*"I am " is reportedly the shortest sentence in the English language. *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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On 10/03/2020 10:44, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Lamb wrote:
Ha! Just been there.
Ancient tractor with no ignition warning light at start up. Initial
investigation found ample carbon left on alternator brushes so assumed
the fault was elsewhere.
Not so:-(
The alternator slip rings were worn down to the underlying insulation
leaving a narrow strip of copper either side.
As a temporary fix, refacing the brushes regained contact and the system
is temporarily working.


Seems odd the copper wearing faster than carbon but maybe this was a
recon alternator.


I've fixed quite a few alternators over the years, and never seen severe
slip ring wear. Perhaps the operating conditions of a tractor were the
reason - the fan in the alternator passes air through it. And dust etc
could cause more wear.

IMHO, 90% of alternator faults can be sorted by a new regulator.
Mechanical wear - except at a massive mileage - pretty rare here. The
other about 10% a failed diode, fixed by replacing the pack.


Certainly the alternators I've seen fail it has been either the diodes
or the regulator in all but one case, when the bearing failed. However,
that case wasn't even an especially high mileage car- as I recall may be
40k. I certainly wouldn't consider mechanical faults or brush wear to be
common.


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In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Tim Lamb wrote:
Ha! Just been there.
Ancient tractor with no ignition warning light at start up. Initial
investigation found ample carbon left on alternator brushes so assumed
the fault was elsewhere.
Not so:-(
The alternator slip rings were worn down to the underlying insulation
leaving a narrow strip of copper either side.
As a temporary fix, refacing the brushes regained contact and the system
is temporarily working.


Seems odd the copper wearing faster than carbon but maybe this was a
recon alternator.


I've fixed quite a few alternators over the years, and never seen severe
slip ring wear. Perhaps the operating conditions of a tractor were the
reason - the fan in the alternator passes air through it. And dust etc
could cause more wear.


As TNP says, probably not the first set of brushes. Tractor used for
hedging so certainly lots of wood chip in the vicinity. Hour meter on
9000 plus so I'm not hugely surprised.

IMHO, 90% of alternator faults can be sorted by a new regulator.
Mechanical wear - except at a massive mileage - pretty rare here. The
other about 10% a failed diode, fixed by replacing the pack.


--
Tim Lamb
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On 10/03/2020 10:44, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Lamb wrote:
Ha! Just been there.
Ancient tractor with no ignition warning light at start up. Initial
investigation found ample carbon left on alternator brushes so assumed
the fault was elsewhere.
Not so:-(
The alternator slip rings were worn down to the underlying insulation
leaving a narrow strip of copper either side.
As a temporary fix, refacing the brushes regained contact and the system
is temporarily working.


Seems odd the copper wearing faster than carbon but maybe this was a
recon alternator.


I've fixed quite a few alternators over the years, and never seen severe
slip ring wear. Perhaps the operating conditions of a tractor were the
reason - the fan in the alternator passes air through it. And dust etc
could cause more wear.

IMHO, 90% of alternator faults can be sorted by a new regulator.
Mechanical wear - except at a massive mileage - pretty rare here. The
other about 10% a failed diode, fixed by replacing the pack.


The one you've missed out is one of the bearings coming loose and
allowing the shaft to slide a little, so that the fan catches on the casing.

Once I could see where all the noise was coming from, I decided it was
okay to get me home. I later disassembled it and re-fixed the bearing.

SteveW
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On 10/03/2020 05:09, Rod Speed wrote:
williamwright wrote
Rod Speed wrote
williamwright wrote
Brian Gaff (Sofa 2) wrote


Not really our old motor caravan had something like that but also a
manual bypass if you wanted it.


I do wish you would put whatever it is you're answering at the top.


He's blind and it isnt as easy for him to do that.


I know he's blind. I've always known it.


So its stupid to be wishing he would stop doing what is more convenient
for him.


Disability is not a free pass.

Bill
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"williamwright" wrote in message
...
On 10/03/2020 05:09, Rod Speed wrote:
williamwright wrote
Rod Speed wrote
williamwright wrote
Brian Gaff (Sofa 2) wrote


Not really our old motor caravan had something like that but also a
manual bypass if you wanted it.


I do wish you would put whatever it is you're answering at the top.


He's blind and it isnt as easy for him to do that.


I know he's blind. I've always known it.


So its stupid to be wishing he would stop doing what is more convenient
for him.


Disability is not a free pass.


Irrelevant to whether its stupid to which he would stop doing what is more
convenient for him.

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Default UNBELIEVABLE: It's 07:06 am in Australia and the Senile Ozzietard has been out of Bed and TROLLING for almost SIX HOURS already!!!! LOL

On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 07:06:43 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH senile asshole's troll****

07:06, already? So you've been up and trolling ALL NIGHT LONG, yet again,
you clinically insane cretin! tsk

--
Norman Wells addressing trolling senile Rodent:
"Ah, the voice of scum speaks."
MID:
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