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  #61   Report Post  
Old February 17th 20, 11:20 AM posted to uk.d-i-y
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First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 40,343
Default Earthing through plastic pipe

In article ,
wrote:
On Sunday, 16 February 2020 13:41:36 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 15 February 2020 11:32:02 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:


It was common many many years ago to provide the earth via the
water pipe. Not so today. Get your leccy board in to sort it out.

It's nothing to do with the leccy board.

How would you define leccy board? The same as your electricity
supplier?

If I meant that I'd have said so. ;-)


What's happened to you lately?


I could ask the same of you. ;-)


You could, but I'm not the one displaying warning signs of dementia


In your case, it might be difficult to diagnose.

--
*Never miss a good chance to shut up *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

  #62   Report Post  
Old February 17th 20, 12:24 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Jan 2015
Posts: 11,623
Default Earthing through plastic pipe

On Monday, 17 February 2020 03:26:14 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 16/02/2020 18:49, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 16 February 2020 15:44:19 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 15/02/2020 17:54, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 15 February 2020 09:59:41 UTC, Robin wrote:
On 15/02/2020 08:35, tabbypurr wrote:
On Friday, 14 February 2020 11:08:57 UTC, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , TimW
wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains
water into my house under the front room and then up in
the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock
and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large
sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying
"Do Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and
replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth
arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring
in another way, into the ground or something, or are we
still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out
to the outside world?

It was common many many years ago to provide the earth via
the water pipe. Not so today. Get your leccy board in to
sort it out.

It's nothing to do with the leccy board.



Meanwhile what might help Tim is to know that the relevant
function of "Electricity Boards" was transferred as part of the
privatisation of the industry to distribution network operators
(DNOs). As John has already pointed out they can and do deal
with earthing - although they may charge (and will require main
bonding to be up to current requirements before they supply
PME).

https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/electricity/earthing

The job required is on the OP's installation, not a job for the
DNO on their equipment.


Well its both... You could wire up your installation as if it were
TN-C-S, but that would not be a sensible thing to do if the DNO had
not constructed or upgraded the local distribution network to
support it.


all that's required is to equi bond the water pipe. AFAIK suppliers
don't provide neutral earth terminals on non-PME supplies.


Yup sorry, I think I misread that last post slightly. Assuming in the
OPs installation its confirmed as the supply being PME, then indeed all
that is required is replacing the missing bond.

My comment above is the more general version - that if the supply status
is unknown, the enquiry wit the DNO may be the only *sure* way of
establishing if its safe to make use of the suppliers neutral for the
local earth.

(The type of cutout does not tell you much since they often the same
type for all TN supplies - the only difference being whether the
internal link joining N & E is fitted).


There are a lot of noncompliant supply incomers around, but they were all compliant at time of installation. Eg 30A rated, touchable live parts, dp fusing, asbestos etc. To the best of my knowledge it has never been compliant to provide a neutral earth from a non-PME supply, hence I would not expect to ever see a non-PME neutral earth connection in this country. If you want to check with the DNO you can, but is there any realistic basis for the claimed need to?


NT
  #63   Report Post  
Old February 17th 20, 12:27 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Jan 2015
Posts: 11,623
Default Earthing through plastic pipe

On Monday, 17 February 2020 11:23:23 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 16 February 2020 13:41:36 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 15 February 2020 11:32:02 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:

It was common many many years ago to provide the earth via the
water pipe. Not so today. Get your leccy board in to sort it out.

It's nothing to do with the leccy board.

How would you define leccy board? The same as your electricity
supplier?

If I meant that I'd have said so. ;-)

What's happened to you lately?

I could ask the same of you. ;-)


You could, but I'm not the one displaying warning signs of dementia


In your case, it might be difficult to diagnose.


It's not a difficult condition to diagnose, unless of course the diagnosis is done by someone whose total experience of the patient is a 5 minute visit.


NT
  #64   Report Post  
Old February 17th 20, 12:38 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Mar 2018
Posts: 89
Default Earthing through plastic pipe

On 17/02/2020 12:24, wrote:
On Monday, 17 February 2020 03:26:14 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 16/02/2020 18:49, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 16 February 2020 15:44:19 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 15/02/2020 17:54, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 15 February 2020 09:59:41 UTC, Robin wrote:
On 15/02/2020 08:35, tabbypurr wrote:
On Friday, 14 February 2020 11:08:57 UTC, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , TimW
wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains
water into my house under the front room and then up in
the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock
and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large
sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying
"Do Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and
replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth
arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring
in another way, into the ground or something, or are we
still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out
to the outside world?

It was common many many years ago to provide the earth via
the water pipe. Not so today. Get your leccy board in to
sort it out.

It's nothing to do with the leccy board.



Meanwhile what might help Tim is to know that the relevant
function of "Electricity Boards" was transferred as part of the
privatisation of the industry to distribution network operators
(DNOs). As John has already pointed out they can and do deal
with earthing - although they may charge (and will require main
bonding to be up to current requirements before they supply
PME).

https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/electricity/earthing

The job required is on the OP's installation, not a job for the
DNO on their equipment.


Well its both... You could wire up your installation as if it were
TN-C-S, but that would not be a sensible thing to do if the DNO had
not constructed or upgraded the local distribution network to
support it.

all that's required is to equi bond the water pipe. AFAIK suppliers
don't provide neutral earth terminals on non-PME supplies.


Yup sorry, I think I misread that last post slightly. Assuming in the
OPs installation its confirmed as the supply being PME, then indeed all
that is required is replacing the missing bond.

My comment above is the more general version - that if the supply status
is unknown, the enquiry wit the DNO may be the only *sure* way of
establishing if its safe to make use of the suppliers neutral for the
local earth.

(The type of cutout does not tell you much since they often the same
type for all TN supplies - the only difference being whether the
internal link joining N & E is fitted).


There are a lot of noncompliant supply incomers around, but they were all compliant at time of installation. Eg 30A rated, touchable live parts, dp fusing, asbestos etc. To the best of my knowledge it has never been compliant to provide a neutral earth from a non-PME supply, hence I would not expect to ever see a non-PME neutral earth connection in this country. If you want to check with the DNO you can, but is there any realistic basis for the claimed need to?


NT

Before PME was 'invented' it was possible to get E Boards/REC's to fit
an 'earth' terminal for a nominal charge in domestic premises. This was
basically utilising the supply cable earth conductor connection at the
cut out which the property main earth conductor could be connected to.

Since PME came in i am not sure if this is still available.
  #65   Report Post  
Old February 17th 20, 02:39 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 40,343
Default Earthing through plastic pipe

In article ,
Tufnell Park wrote:
Before PME was 'invented' it was possible to get E Boards/REC's to fit
an 'earth' terminal for a nominal charge in domestic premises. This was
basically utilising the supply cable earth conductor connection at the
cut out which the property main earth conductor could be connected to.


Since PME came in i am not sure if this is still available.


Not sure either.

When I bought this house in the 70s, the earth was provided by bonding to
the incoming lead water pipe. Also bonding to the cast iron gas pipe.

There had been relatively recent works done (before I bought it) which
included a new riser, and the meter moved from cellar to the top of the
cellar stairs. Wired in three core armoured cable from riser to meter,
with the third being the earth and an earth terminal alongside the meter
installed, which the house wiring earth was connected to. An old conduit
ran alongside the armoured, so I assume the ancient fusebox had always
been at the top of the cellar stairs.

Most of the lighting wiring was lead covered, although a more modern ring
had been added at some point.

Such a mess it was a condition of the mortgage it was rewired, which I did
to a basic level before moving in. But since everything to the meter was
obviously recent, left that as was.

On re-commissioning the new installation, the then board passed it all.
Including removing a second meter in another part of the house.

--
*Money isn't everything, but it sure keeps the kids in touch.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


  #66   Report Post  
Old February 17th 20, 03:07 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 23,516
Default Earthing through plastic pipe

On 17/02/2020 12:24, wrote:
On Monday, 17 February 2020 03:26:14 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 16/02/2020 18:49, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 16 February 2020 15:44:19 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 15/02/2020 17:54, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 15 February 2020 09:59:41 UTC, Robin wrote:
On 15/02/2020 08:35, tabbypurr wrote:
On Friday, 14 February 2020 11:08:57 UTC, Dave Plowman
(News) wrote:
In article , TimW
wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing
mains water into my house under the front room and
then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there
was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto
the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected
with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out
and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at
the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to
earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or
something, or are we still earthed through the water
in the plastic pipe out to the outside world?

It was common many many years ago to provide the earth
via the water pipe. Not so today. Get your leccy board
in to sort it out.

It's nothing to do with the leccy board.



Meanwhile what might help Tim is to know that the relevant
function of "Electricity Boards" was transferred as part of
the privatisation of the industry to distribution network
operators (DNOs). As John has already pointed out they can
and do deal with earthing - although they may charge (and
will require main bonding to be up to current requirements
before they supply PME).

https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/electricity/earthing

The job required is on the OP's installation, not a job for
the DNO on their equipment.


Well its both... You could wire up your installation as if it
were TN-C-S, but that would not be a sensible thing to do if
the DNO had not constructed or upgraded the local distribution
network to support it.

all that's required is to equi bond the water pipe. AFAIK
suppliers don't provide neutral earth terminals on non-PME
supplies.


Yup sorry, I think I misread that last post slightly. Assuming in
the OPs installation its confirmed as the supply being PME, then
indeed all that is required is replacing the missing bond.

My comment above is the more general version - that if the supply
status is unknown, the enquiry wit the DNO may be the only *sure*
way of establishing if its safe to make use of the suppliers
neutral for the local earth.

(The type of cutout does not tell you much since they often the
same type for all TN supplies - the only difference being whether
the internal link joining N & E is fitted).


There are a lot of noncompliant supply incomers around, but they were
all compliant at time of installation. Eg 30A rated, touchable live
parts, dp fusing, asbestos etc. To the best of my knowledge it has
never been compliant to provide a neutral earth from a non-PME
supply, hence I would not expect to ever see a non-PME neutral earth
connection in this country. If you want to check with the DNO you
can, but is there any realistic basis for the claimed need to?


Say you wanted to convert from TT to PME. If your cutout installation
predated the network upgrade but was otherwise of an appropriate type,
then you would need to check with the DNO prior to fitting the missing
link (or more likely having them fit it)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/
  #67   Report Post  
Old February 17th 20, 08:12 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Jan 2015
Posts: 11,623
Default Earthing through plastic pipe

On Monday, 17 February 2020 12:38:46 UTC, Tufnell Park wrote:
On 17/02/2020 12:24, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 17 February 2020 03:26:14 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 16/02/2020 18:49, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 16 February 2020 15:44:19 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 15/02/2020 17:54, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 15 February 2020 09:59:41 UTC, Robin wrote:
On 15/02/2020 08:35, tabbypurr wrote:
On Friday, 14 February 2020 11:08:57 UTC, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , TimW
wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains
water into my house under the front room and then up in
the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock
and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large
sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying
"Do Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and
replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth
arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring
in another way, into the ground or something, or are we
still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out
to the outside world?

It was common many many years ago to provide the earth via
the water pipe. Not so today. Get your leccy board in to
sort it out.

It's nothing to do with the leccy board.



Meanwhile what might help Tim is to know that the relevant
function of "Electricity Boards" was transferred as part of the
privatisation of the industry to distribution network operators
(DNOs). As John has already pointed out they can and do deal
with earthing - although they may charge (and will require main
bonding to be up to current requirements before they supply
PME).

https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/electricity/earthing

The job required is on the OP's installation, not a job for the
DNO on their equipment.

Well its both... You could wire up your installation as if it were
TN-C-S, but that would not be a sensible thing to do if the DNO had
not constructed or upgraded the local distribution network to
support it.

all that's required is to equi bond the water pipe. AFAIK suppliers
don't provide neutral earth terminals on non-PME supplies.

Yup sorry, I think I misread that last post slightly. Assuming in the
OPs installation its confirmed as the supply being PME, then indeed all
that is required is replacing the missing bond.

My comment above is the more general version - that if the supply status
is unknown, the enquiry wit the DNO may be the only *sure* way of
establishing if its safe to make use of the suppliers neutral for the
local earth.

(The type of cutout does not tell you much since they often the same
type for all TN supplies - the only difference being whether the
internal link joining N & E is fitted).


There are a lot of noncompliant supply incomers around, but they were all compliant at time of installation. Eg 30A rated, touchable live parts, dp fusing, asbestos etc. To the best of my knowledge it has never been compliant to provide a neutral earth from a non-PME supply, hence I would not expect to ever see a non-PME neutral earth connection in this country. If you want to check with the DNO you can, but is there any realistic basis for the claimed need to?


NT

Before PME was 'invented' it was possible to get E Boards/REC's to fit
an 'earth' terminal for a nominal charge in domestic premises. This was
basically utilising the supply cable earth conductor connection at the
cut out which the property main earth conductor could be connected to.

Since PME came in i am not sure if this is still available.


that TN-S has long been available is not news and afaik not relevant


NT
  #68   Report Post  
Old February 17th 20, 08:16 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Jan 2015
Posts: 11,623
Default Earthing through plastic pipe

On Monday, 17 February 2020 15:07:36 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 17/02/2020 12:24, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 17 February 2020 03:26:14 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 16/02/2020 18:49, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 16 February 2020 15:44:19 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 15/02/2020 17:54, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 15 February 2020 09:59:41 UTC, Robin wrote:
On 15/02/2020 08:35, tabbypurr wrote:
On Friday, 14 February 2020 11:08:57 UTC, Dave Plowman
(News) wrote:
In article , TimW
wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing
mains water into my house under the front room and
then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there
was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto
the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected
with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out
and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at
the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to
earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or
something, or are we still earthed through the water
in the plastic pipe out to the outside world?

It was common many many years ago to provide the earth
via the water pipe. Not so today. Get your leccy board
in to sort it out.

It's nothing to do with the leccy board.



Meanwhile what might help Tim is to know that the relevant
function of "Electricity Boards" was transferred as part of
the privatisation of the industry to distribution network
operators (DNOs). As John has already pointed out they can
and do deal with earthing - although they may charge (and
will require main bonding to be up to current requirements
before they supply PME).

https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/electricity/earthing

The job required is on the OP's installation, not a job for
the DNO on their equipment.

Well its both... You could wire up your installation as if it
were TN-C-S, but that would not be a sensible thing to do if
the DNO had not constructed or upgraded the local distribution
network to support it.

all that's required is to equi bond the water pipe. AFAIK
suppliers don't provide neutral earth terminals on non-PME
supplies.

Yup sorry, I think I misread that last post slightly. Assuming in
the OPs installation its confirmed as the supply being PME, then
indeed all that is required is replacing the missing bond.

My comment above is the more general version - that if the supply
status is unknown, the enquiry wit the DNO may be the only *sure*
way of establishing if its safe to make use of the suppliers
neutral for the local earth.

(The type of cutout does not tell you much since they often the
same type for all TN supplies - the only difference being whether
the internal link joining N & E is fitted).


There are a lot of noncompliant supply incomers around, but they were
all compliant at time of installation. Eg 30A rated, touchable live
parts, dp fusing, asbestos etc. To the best of my knowledge it has
never been compliant to provide a neutral earth from a non-PME
supply, hence I would not expect to ever see a non-PME neutral earth
connection in this country. If you want to check with the DNO you
can, but is there any realistic basis for the claimed need to?


Say you wanted to convert from TT to PME. If your cutout installation
predated the network upgrade but was otherwise of an appropriate type,
then you would need to check with the DNO prior to fitting the missing
link (or more likely having them fit it)


Are you saying some sparks were in the habit of fitting a supplier's neutral to MET link on TT feeds, and using only that for the house's earth system? If so I wasn't aware one could buy the links, nor that sparks were being so irresponsoble.


NT
  #69   Report Post  
Old February 18th 20, 01:05 AM posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 23,516
Default Earthing through plastic pipe

On 17/02/2020 20:16, wrote:
On Monday, 17 February 2020 15:07:36 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 17/02/2020 12:24, tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 17 February 2020 03:26:14 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 16/02/2020 18:49, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 16 February 2020 15:44:19 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 15/02/2020 17:54, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 15 February 2020 09:59:41 UTC, Robin
wrote:
On 15/02/2020 08:35, tabbypurr wrote:
On Friday, 14 February 2020 11:08:57 UTC, Dave
Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , TimW
wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing
mains water into my house under the front room
and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There
there was a stop cock and it went into copper
pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth
wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not
Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all
out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was
looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if
I need to earth the wiring in another way, into
the ground or something, or are we still earthed
through the water in the plastic pipe out to the
outside world?

It was common many many years ago to provide the
earth via the water pipe. Not so today. Get your
leccy board in to sort it out.

It's nothing to do with the leccy board.



Meanwhile what might help Tim is to know that the
relevant function of "Electricity Boards" was
transferred as part of the privatisation of the
industry to distribution network operators (DNOs). As
John has already pointed out they can and do deal with
earthing - although they may charge (and will require
main bonding to be up to current requirements before
they supply PME).

https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/electricity/earthing

The job required is on the OP's installation, not a job
for the DNO on their equipment.

Well its both... You could wire up your installation as if
it were TN-C-S, but that would not be a sensible thing to
do if the DNO had not constructed or upgraded the local
distribution network to support it.

all that's required is to equi bond the water pipe. AFAIK
suppliers don't provide neutral earth terminals on non-PME
supplies.

Yup sorry, I think I misread that last post slightly. Assuming
in the OPs installation its confirmed as the supply being PME,
then indeed all that is required is replacing the missing
bond.

My comment above is the more general version - that if the
supply status is unknown, the enquiry wit the DNO may be the
only *sure* way of establishing if its safe to make use of the
suppliers neutral for the local earth.

(The type of cutout does not tell you much since they often
the same type for all TN supplies - the only difference being
whether the internal link joining N & E is fitted).

There are a lot of noncompliant supply incomers around, but they
were all compliant at time of installation. Eg 30A rated,
touchable live parts, dp fusing, asbestos etc. To the best of my
knowledge it has never been compliant to provide a neutral earth
from a non-PME supply, hence I would not expect to ever see a
non-PME neutral earth connection in this country. If you want to
check with the DNO you can, but is there any realistic basis for
the claimed need to?


Say you wanted to convert from TT to PME. If your cutout
installation predated the network upgrade but was otherwise of an
appropriate type, then you would need to check with the DNO prior
to fitting the missing link (or more likely having them fit it)


Are you saying some sparks were in the habit of fitting a supplier's
neutral to MET link on TT feeds, and using only that for the house's
earth system?


No.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/


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