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Earthing through plastic pipe
On Friday, 14 February 2020 11:23:46 UTC, TimW wrote:
This is the supply in the porch: https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9 Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement? That CU is definately one from someone's bits box! Owain |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On 15/02/2020 10:55, Robin wrote:
On 15/02/2020 10:45, ARW wrote: On 15/02/2020 10:30, Robin wrote: On 15/02/2020 09:56, ARW wrote: On 14/02/2020 14:27, Robin wrote: On 14/02/2020 13:53, TimW wrote: On 14/02/2020 13:25, Robin wrote: On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote: On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote: There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? TW This is the supply in the porch: https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9 Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the box of trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the old economy 7 circuit or something. Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement? That looks promising (but also a bit of a dog's breakfast).Â* But I'd rather leave it to those who have seen an awful lot more of them to advise the next step. On a point of detail, can you see/work out where the wire connected to the copper pipe comes from? No, it comes from the gaps between the joists. tw Don't worry about that, it's trivial compared with your earthing. The news that you have an overhead supply combined with the "dog's breakfast" aspect makes me more inclined to suspect a "DIY PME" installation.Â* That is, someone has come along and connected the earth cable between the incomer and the consumer unit to make it look as if you have TN-C-S/PME when in fact you have TT. It doesn't follow that you have an exceedingly dangerous setup. And there might be an earth rod somewhere.Â* But when looked at alongside the consumer unit (with it's mix of brands and lack of RCD protection on some circuits) I'd be bothered.Â* I think you should have it looked at. But others will know more and better than me. In the meantime be careful. Although it is the same service head as John Rumm's, John actually has a Ze reading on his. However on the plus side the cut out is sealed and that suggests that the earth is genuine. You need to cut the seal and remove the fuse to access the earth on that service head. My apologies to Tim for my excess of caution. And in case Tim hasn't picked up on it, Adam does this **** for a living - and by all accounts rather well. It could be a false seal:-). The yellow sticker will say PME on it but that is no guarantee. The OP's only answer is to call his supplier. I think I was biased by the contrast with the few conversions to PME I've seen where the earth was a short bit of cable to a MET, or to a connector left dangling like https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/-/media/images/uk-power-networks/ge/earthing/pme-earthing-photo.ashx?h=232&w=408&la=en&hash=A5FA061E3047D5F7 76145E3CFD0CB2A81AEB15A6 I think their web site must be borked at the mo - all those links just redirect to the home page at the moment for me... -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On 15/02/2020 11:55, wrote:
On Friday, 14 February 2020 11:23:46 UTC, TimW wrote: This is the supply in the porch: https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9 Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement? That CU is definately one from someone's bits box! It looks very similar to a Contactum insulated CU of about 10 years ago to me... -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On 15/02/2020 13:37, John Rumm wrote:
snip I think their web site must be borked at the mo - all those links just redirect to the home page at the moment for me... They have put up a new home page ready for Storm Dennis, and I too cannot now get to the page or photo in the links. -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On Saturday, 15 February 2020 13:46:57 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
That CU is definately one from someone's bits box! It looks very similar to a Contactum insulated CU of about 10 years ago to me... Did they use Hager, Moeller, Wylex and MK MCBs too ? :-) Owain |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On Saturday, 15 February 2020 09:59:41 UTC, Robin wrote:
On 15/02/2020 08:35, tabbypurr wrote: On Friday, 14 February 2020 11:08:57 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , TimW wrote: There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? It was common many many years ago to provide the earth via the water pipe. Not so today. Get your leccy board in to sort it out. It's nothing to do with the leccy board. Meanwhile what might help Tim is to know that the relevant function of "Electricity Boards" was transferred as part of the privatisation of the industry to distribution network operators (DNOs). As John has already pointed out they can and do deal with earthing - although they may charge (and will require main bonding to be up to current requirements before they supply PME). https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/electricity/earthing The job required is on the OP's installation, not a job for the DNO on their equipment. NT |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On Saturday, 15 February 2020 11:32:02 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , tabbypurr wrote: It was common many many years ago to provide the earth via the water pipe. Not so today. Get your leccy board in to sort it out. It's nothing to do with the leccy board. How would you define leccy board? The same as your electricity supplier? If I meant that I'd have said so. ;-) What's happened to you lately? |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On 15/02/2020 17:04, wrote:
On Saturday, 15 February 2020 13:46:57 UTC, John Rumm wrote: That CU is definately one from someone's bits box! It looks very similar to a Contactum insulated CU of about 10 years ago to me... Did they use Hager, Moeller, Wylex and MK MCBs too ? :-) Yup - they are more flexible in that respect than the later ones. (can't comment on Moeller, but have a Hager HRC fuse carrier in one of mine, and a pair of MK Type S RCDs). -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Earthing through plastic pipe
In article ,
wrote: On Saturday, 15 February 2020 11:32:02 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , tabbypurr wrote: It was common many many years ago to provide the earth via the water pipe. Not so today. Get your leccy board in to sort it out. It's nothing to do with the leccy board. How would you define leccy board? The same as your electricity supplier? If I meant that I'd have said so. ;-) What's happened to you lately? I could ask the same of you. ;-) But if you contact your electricity supplier and tell them the problem I'm sure they'll point you in the right direction. -- *Succeed, in spite of management * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On 16/02/2020 13:36, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , wrote: On Saturday, 15 February 2020 11:32:02 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , tabbypurr wrote: It was common many many years ago to provide the earth via the water pipe. Not so today. Get your leccy board in to sort it out. It's nothing to do with the leccy board. How would you define leccy board? The same as your electricity supplier? If I meant that I'd have said so. ;-) What's happened to you lately? I could ask the same of you. ;-) But if you contact your electricity supplier and tell them the problem I'm sure they'll point you in the right direction. I very much doubt that your electricity supplier would guide you on a technical matter such as 'earthing'. It would be more productive to contact the DNO for his area and enquire if PME is available on their network. If avaialable the DNO are obliged to provide PME to the terminal cutout. There may be a standard charge for doing this. |
Earthing through plastic pipe
In article ,
Tufnell Park wrote: But if you contact your electricity supplier and tell them the problem I'm sure they'll point you in the right direction. I very much doubt that your electricity supplier would guide you on a technical matter such as 'earthing'. Try it and see. -- *America is so advanced that even the chairs are electric. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On 16/02/2020 15:20, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Tufnell Park wrote: But if you contact your electricity supplier and tell them the problem I'm sure they'll point you in the right direction. I very much doubt that your electricity supplier would guide you on a technical matter such as 'earthing'. Try it and see. It's not worth the bother, provision of PME is the responsibility of the DNO (distribution network operator). Your electricity supplier merely supplies you with electricty, for technical matters they may refer you to the DNO, but you will have made 2 calls where one would have done. |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On 16/02/2020 15:37, Tufnell Park wrote:
On 16/02/2020 15:20, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , Â*Â*Â* Tufnell Park wrote: But if you contact your electricity supplier and tell them the problem I'm sure they'll point you in the right direction. I very much doubt that your electricity supplier would guide you on a technical matter such as 'earthing'. Try it and see. It's not worth the bother, provision of PME is the responsibility of the DNO (distribution network operator). Your electricity supplier merely supplies you with electricty, for technical matters they may refer you to the DNO, but you will have made 2 calls where one would have done. +1 -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On 15/02/2020 17:54, wrote:
On Saturday, 15 February 2020 09:59:41 UTC, Robin wrote: On 15/02/2020 08:35, tabbypurr wrote: On Friday, 14 February 2020 11:08:57 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , TimW wrote: There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? It was common many many years ago to provide the earth via the water pipe. Not so today. Get your leccy board in to sort it out. It's nothing to do with the leccy board. Meanwhile what might help Tim is to know that the relevant function of "Electricity Boards" was transferred as part of the privatisation of the industry to distribution network operators (DNOs). As John has already pointed out they can and do deal with earthing - although they may charge (and will require main bonding to be up to current requirements before they supply PME). https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/electricity/earthing The job required is on the OP's installation, not a job for the DNO on their equipment. Depends what "the job" is. Getting PME (if it isn't there already) is a job for the DNO on their equipment, and some at least will check it for free. (IMLE they don't always have records, or trust what they do have.) There may be other jobs on the installation - eg bonding, earth rod - but that doesn't militate against using the DNO. -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On Sunday, 16 February 2020 13:41:36 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , tabbypurr wrote: On Saturday, 15 February 2020 11:32:02 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , tabbypurr wrote: It was common many many years ago to provide the earth via the water pipe. Not so today. Get your leccy board in to sort it out. It's nothing to do with the leccy board. How would you define leccy board? The same as your electricity supplier? If I meant that I'd have said so. ;-) What's happened to you lately? I could ask the same of you. ;-) You could, but I'm not the one displaying warning signs of dementia But if you contact your electricity supplier and tell them the problem I'm sure they'll point you in the right direction. |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On Sunday, 16 February 2020 15:44:19 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 15/02/2020 17:54, tabbypurr wrote: On Saturday, 15 February 2020 09:59:41 UTC, Robin wrote: On 15/02/2020 08:35, tabbypurr wrote: On Friday, 14 February 2020 11:08:57 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , TimW wrote: There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? It was common many many years ago to provide the earth via the water pipe. Not so today. Get your leccy board in to sort it out. It's nothing to do with the leccy board. Meanwhile what might help Tim is to know that the relevant function of "Electricity Boards" was transferred as part of the privatisation of the industry to distribution network operators (DNOs). As John has already pointed out they can and do deal with earthing - although they may charge (and will require main bonding to be up to current requirements before they supply PME). https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/electricity/earthing The job required is on the OP's installation, not a job for the DNO on their equipment. Well its both... You could wire up your installation as if it were TN-C-S, but that would not be a sensible thing to do if the DNO had not constructed or upgraded the local distribution network to support it. all that's required is to equi bond the water pipe. AFAIK suppliers don't provide neutral earth terminals on non-PME supplies. NT |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On 14/02/2020 16:09, John Rumm wrote:
On 14/02/2020 15:44, newshound wrote: On 14/02/2020 11:10, Tim Watts wrote: On 14/02/2020 11:06, Tim Watts wrote: On 13/02/2020 22:35, TimW wrote: Earth rod and required RCD measures if you are a TT installation. But are you maybe a TN-C-S or TN-S (supplier provided earth) and this clamp was merely equipotential bonding? Going to add - if you can't work it out, best call a local sparky around asap to check it out. The worst case scenario as others have mentioned is a very dangerous installation. Although *if* it is a reasonably recent installation, the supplier's main fuse or switch may bear the magic letters "PME". That said, mine did when I moved in, but the earth was not in fact connected to the neutral, but to a fairly feeble looking earth rod right by the front door. Indeed the sticker alone is not solid evidence that the install is actually using the PME earth. My cutout has the PME sticker, but it would seem that the upgrade to a PME capable supply occurred after the house was previously re-wired. Hence the installation is TT (as would be typical for many rural properties with overhead supplies). Good point. IIRC my overhead supply was replaced with an underground one soon after I moved in (31 years ago). |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On 16/02/2020 18:49, wrote:
On Sunday, 16 February 2020 15:44:19 UTC, John Rumm wrote: On 15/02/2020 17:54, tabbypurr wrote: On Saturday, 15 February 2020 09:59:41 UTC, Robin wrote: On 15/02/2020 08:35, tabbypurr wrote: On Friday, 14 February 2020 11:08:57 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , TimW wrote: There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? It was common many many years ago to provide the earth via the water pipe. Not so today. Get your leccy board in to sort it out. It's nothing to do with the leccy board. Meanwhile what might help Tim is to know that the relevant function of "Electricity Boards" was transferred as part of the privatisation of the industry to distribution network operators (DNOs). As John has already pointed out they can and do deal with earthing - although they may charge (and will require main bonding to be up to current requirements before they supply PME). https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/electricity/earthing The job required is on the OP's installation, not a job for the DNO on their equipment. Well its both... You could wire up your installation as if it were TN-C-S, but that would not be a sensible thing to do if the DNO had not constructed or upgraded the local distribution network to support it. all that's required is to equi bond the water pipe. AFAIK suppliers don't provide neutral earth terminals on non-PME supplies. Yup sorry, I think I misread that last post slightly. Assuming in the OPs installation its confirmed as the supply being PME, then indeed all that is required is replacing the missing bond. My comment above is the more general version - that if the supply status is unknown, the enquiry wit the DNO may be the only *sure* way of establishing if its safe to make use of the suppliers neutral for the local earth. (The type of cutout does not tell you much since they often the same type for all TN supplies - the only difference being whether the internal link joining N & E is fitted). -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Earthing through plastic pipe
In article ,
Tufnell Park wrote: On 16/02/2020 15:20, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , Tufnell Park wrote: But if you contact your electricity supplier and tell them the problem I'm sure they'll point you in the right direction. I very much doubt that your electricity supplier would guide you on a technical matter such as 'earthing'. Try it and see. It's not worth the bother, provision of PME is the responsibility of the DNO (distribution network operator). Then a phone call to your supplier will likely point you to the correct one. Your electricity supplier merely supplies you with electricty, for technical matters they may refer you to the DNO, but you will have made 2 calls where one would have done. I'd guess the 99% of the population that you have quoted earlier are likely to approach their supplier first, with any problems? -- *I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Earthing through plastic pipe
In article ,
wrote: On Sunday, 16 February 2020 13:41:36 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , tabbypurr wrote: On Saturday, 15 February 2020 11:32:02 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , tabbypurr wrote: It was common many many years ago to provide the earth via the water pipe. Not so today. Get your leccy board in to sort it out. It's nothing to do with the leccy board. How would you define leccy board? The same as your electricity supplier? If I meant that I'd have said so. ;-) What's happened to you lately? I could ask the same of you. ;-) You could, but I'm not the one displaying warning signs of dementia In your case, it might be difficult to diagnose. -- *Never miss a good chance to shut up * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On Monday, 17 February 2020 03:26:14 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 16/02/2020 18:49, tabbypurr wrote: On Sunday, 16 February 2020 15:44:19 UTC, John Rumm wrote: On 15/02/2020 17:54, tabbypurr wrote: On Saturday, 15 February 2020 09:59:41 UTC, Robin wrote: On 15/02/2020 08:35, tabbypurr wrote: On Friday, 14 February 2020 11:08:57 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , TimW wrote: There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? It was common many many years ago to provide the earth via the water pipe. Not so today. Get your leccy board in to sort it out. It's nothing to do with the leccy board. Meanwhile what might help Tim is to know that the relevant function of "Electricity Boards" was transferred as part of the privatisation of the industry to distribution network operators (DNOs). As John has already pointed out they can and do deal with earthing - although they may charge (and will require main bonding to be up to current requirements before they supply PME). https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/electricity/earthing The job required is on the OP's installation, not a job for the DNO on their equipment. Well its both... You could wire up your installation as if it were TN-C-S, but that would not be a sensible thing to do if the DNO had not constructed or upgraded the local distribution network to support it. all that's required is to equi bond the water pipe. AFAIK suppliers don't provide neutral earth terminals on non-PME supplies. Yup sorry, I think I misread that last post slightly. Assuming in the OPs installation its confirmed as the supply being PME, then indeed all that is required is replacing the missing bond. My comment above is the more general version - that if the supply status is unknown, the enquiry wit the DNO may be the only *sure* way of establishing if its safe to make use of the suppliers neutral for the local earth. (The type of cutout does not tell you much since they often the same type for all TN supplies - the only difference being whether the internal link joining N & E is fitted). There are a lot of noncompliant supply incomers around, but they were all compliant at time of installation. Eg 30A rated, touchable live parts, dp fusing, asbestos etc. To the best of my knowledge it has never been compliant to provide a neutral earth from a non-PME supply, hence I would not expect to ever see a non-PME neutral earth connection in this country. If you want to check with the DNO you can, but is there any realistic basis for the claimed need to? NT |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On Monday, 17 February 2020 11:23:23 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , tabbypurr wrote: On Sunday, 16 February 2020 13:41:36 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , tabbypurr wrote: On Saturday, 15 February 2020 11:32:02 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , tabbypurr wrote: It was common many many years ago to provide the earth via the water pipe. Not so today. Get your leccy board in to sort it out. It's nothing to do with the leccy board. How would you define leccy board? The same as your electricity supplier? If I meant that I'd have said so. ;-) What's happened to you lately? I could ask the same of you. ;-) You could, but I'm not the one displaying warning signs of dementia In your case, it might be difficult to diagnose. It's not a difficult condition to diagnose, unless of course the diagnosis is done by someone whose total experience of the patient is a 5 minute visit. NT |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On 17/02/2020 12:24, wrote:
On Monday, 17 February 2020 03:26:14 UTC, John Rumm wrote: On 16/02/2020 18:49, tabbypurr wrote: On Sunday, 16 February 2020 15:44:19 UTC, John Rumm wrote: On 15/02/2020 17:54, tabbypurr wrote: On Saturday, 15 February 2020 09:59:41 UTC, Robin wrote: On 15/02/2020 08:35, tabbypurr wrote: On Friday, 14 February 2020 11:08:57 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , TimW wrote: There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? It was common many many years ago to provide the earth via the water pipe. Not so today. Get your leccy board in to sort it out. It's nothing to do with the leccy board. Meanwhile what might help Tim is to know that the relevant function of "Electricity Boards" was transferred as part of the privatisation of the industry to distribution network operators (DNOs). As John has already pointed out they can and do deal with earthing - although they may charge (and will require main bonding to be up to current requirements before they supply PME). https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/electricity/earthing The job required is on the OP's installation, not a job for the DNO on their equipment. Well its both... You could wire up your installation as if it were TN-C-S, but that would not be a sensible thing to do if the DNO had not constructed or upgraded the local distribution network to support it. all that's required is to equi bond the water pipe. AFAIK suppliers don't provide neutral earth terminals on non-PME supplies. Yup sorry, I think I misread that last post slightly. Assuming in the OPs installation its confirmed as the supply being PME, then indeed all that is required is replacing the missing bond. My comment above is the more general version - that if the supply status is unknown, the enquiry wit the DNO may be the only *sure* way of establishing if its safe to make use of the suppliers neutral for the local earth. (The type of cutout does not tell you much since they often the same type for all TN supplies - the only difference being whether the internal link joining N & E is fitted). There are a lot of noncompliant supply incomers around, but they were all compliant at time of installation. Eg 30A rated, touchable live parts, dp fusing, asbestos etc. To the best of my knowledge it has never been compliant to provide a neutral earth from a non-PME supply, hence I would not expect to ever see a non-PME neutral earth connection in this country. If you want to check with the DNO you can, but is there any realistic basis for the claimed need to? NT Before PME was 'invented' it was possible to get E Boards/REC's to fit an 'earth' terminal for a nominal charge in domestic premises. This was basically utilising the supply cable earth conductor connection at the cut out which the property main earth conductor could be connected to. Since PME came in i am not sure if this is still available. |
Earthing through plastic pipe
In article ,
Tufnell Park wrote: Before PME was 'invented' it was possible to get E Boards/REC's to fit an 'earth' terminal for a nominal charge in domestic premises. This was basically utilising the supply cable earth conductor connection at the cut out which the property main earth conductor could be connected to. Since PME came in i am not sure if this is still available. Not sure either. When I bought this house in the 70s, the earth was provided by bonding to the incoming lead water pipe. Also bonding to the cast iron gas pipe. There had been relatively recent works done (before I bought it) which included a new riser, and the meter moved from cellar to the top of the cellar stairs. Wired in three core armoured cable from riser to meter, with the third being the earth and an earth terminal alongside the meter installed, which the house wiring earth was connected to. An old conduit ran alongside the armoured, so I assume the ancient fusebox had always been at the top of the cellar stairs. Most of the lighting wiring was lead covered, although a more modern ring had been added at some point. Such a mess it was a condition of the mortgage it was rewired, which I did to a basic level before moving in. But since everything to the meter was obviously recent, left that as was. On re-commissioning the new installation, the then board passed it all. Including removing a second meter in another part of the house. -- *Money isn't everything, but it sure keeps the kids in touch. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On 17/02/2020 12:24, wrote:
On Monday, 17 February 2020 03:26:14 UTC, John Rumm wrote: On 16/02/2020 18:49, tabbypurr wrote: On Sunday, 16 February 2020 15:44:19 UTC, John Rumm wrote: On 15/02/2020 17:54, tabbypurr wrote: On Saturday, 15 February 2020 09:59:41 UTC, Robin wrote: On 15/02/2020 08:35, tabbypurr wrote: On Friday, 14 February 2020 11:08:57 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , TimW wrote: There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? It was common many many years ago to provide the earth via the water pipe. Not so today. Get your leccy board in to sort it out. It's nothing to do with the leccy board. Meanwhile what might help Tim is to know that the relevant function of "Electricity Boards" was transferred as part of the privatisation of the industry to distribution network operators (DNOs). As John has already pointed out they can and do deal with earthing - although they may charge (and will require main bonding to be up to current requirements before they supply PME). https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/electricity/earthing The job required is on the OP's installation, not a job for the DNO on their equipment. Well its both... You could wire up your installation as if it were TN-C-S, but that would not be a sensible thing to do if the DNO had not constructed or upgraded the local distribution network to support it. all that's required is to equi bond the water pipe. AFAIK suppliers don't provide neutral earth terminals on non-PME supplies. Yup sorry, I think I misread that last post slightly. Assuming in the OPs installation its confirmed as the supply being PME, then indeed all that is required is replacing the missing bond. My comment above is the more general version - that if the supply status is unknown, the enquiry wit the DNO may be the only *sure* way of establishing if its safe to make use of the suppliers neutral for the local earth. (The type of cutout does not tell you much since they often the same type for all TN supplies - the only difference being whether the internal link joining N & E is fitted). There are a lot of noncompliant supply incomers around, but they were all compliant at time of installation. Eg 30A rated, touchable live parts, dp fusing, asbestos etc. To the best of my knowledge it has never been compliant to provide a neutral earth from a non-PME supply, hence I would not expect to ever see a non-PME neutral earth connection in this country. If you want to check with the DNO you can, but is there any realistic basis for the claimed need to? Say you wanted to convert from TT to PME. If your cutout installation predated the network upgrade but was otherwise of an appropriate type, then you would need to check with the DNO prior to fitting the missing link (or more likely having them fit it) -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On Monday, 17 February 2020 12:38:46 UTC, Tufnell Park wrote:
On 17/02/2020 12:24, tabbypurr wrote: On Monday, 17 February 2020 03:26:14 UTC, John Rumm wrote: On 16/02/2020 18:49, tabbypurr wrote: On Sunday, 16 February 2020 15:44:19 UTC, John Rumm wrote: On 15/02/2020 17:54, tabbypurr wrote: On Saturday, 15 February 2020 09:59:41 UTC, Robin wrote: On 15/02/2020 08:35, tabbypurr wrote: On Friday, 14 February 2020 11:08:57 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , TimW wrote: There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? It was common many many years ago to provide the earth via the water pipe. Not so today. Get your leccy board in to sort it out. It's nothing to do with the leccy board. Meanwhile what might help Tim is to know that the relevant function of "Electricity Boards" was transferred as part of the privatisation of the industry to distribution network operators (DNOs). As John has already pointed out they can and do deal with earthing - although they may charge (and will require main bonding to be up to current requirements before they supply PME). https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/electricity/earthing The job required is on the OP's installation, not a job for the DNO on their equipment. Well its both... You could wire up your installation as if it were TN-C-S, but that would not be a sensible thing to do if the DNO had not constructed or upgraded the local distribution network to support it. all that's required is to equi bond the water pipe. AFAIK suppliers don't provide neutral earth terminals on non-PME supplies. Yup sorry, I think I misread that last post slightly. Assuming in the OPs installation its confirmed as the supply being PME, then indeed all that is required is replacing the missing bond. My comment above is the more general version - that if the supply status is unknown, the enquiry wit the DNO may be the only *sure* way of establishing if its safe to make use of the suppliers neutral for the local earth. (The type of cutout does not tell you much since they often the same type for all TN supplies - the only difference being whether the internal link joining N & E is fitted). There are a lot of noncompliant supply incomers around, but they were all compliant at time of installation. Eg 30A rated, touchable live parts, dp fusing, asbestos etc. To the best of my knowledge it has never been compliant to provide a neutral earth from a non-PME supply, hence I would not expect to ever see a non-PME neutral earth connection in this country. If you want to check with the DNO you can, but is there any realistic basis for the claimed need to? NT Before PME was 'invented' it was possible to get E Boards/REC's to fit an 'earth' terminal for a nominal charge in domestic premises. This was basically utilising the supply cable earth conductor connection at the cut out which the property main earth conductor could be connected to. Since PME came in i am not sure if this is still available. that TN-S has long been available is not news and afaik not relevant NT |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On Monday, 17 February 2020 15:07:36 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 17/02/2020 12:24, tabbypurr wrote: On Monday, 17 February 2020 03:26:14 UTC, John Rumm wrote: On 16/02/2020 18:49, tabbypurr wrote: On Sunday, 16 February 2020 15:44:19 UTC, John Rumm wrote: On 15/02/2020 17:54, tabbypurr wrote: On Saturday, 15 February 2020 09:59:41 UTC, Robin wrote: On 15/02/2020 08:35, tabbypurr wrote: On Friday, 14 February 2020 11:08:57 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , TimW wrote: There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? It was common many many years ago to provide the earth via the water pipe. Not so today. Get your leccy board in to sort it out. It's nothing to do with the leccy board. Meanwhile what might help Tim is to know that the relevant function of "Electricity Boards" was transferred as part of the privatisation of the industry to distribution network operators (DNOs). As John has already pointed out they can and do deal with earthing - although they may charge (and will require main bonding to be up to current requirements before they supply PME). https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/electricity/earthing The job required is on the OP's installation, not a job for the DNO on their equipment. Well its both... You could wire up your installation as if it were TN-C-S, but that would not be a sensible thing to do if the DNO had not constructed or upgraded the local distribution network to support it. all that's required is to equi bond the water pipe. AFAIK suppliers don't provide neutral earth terminals on non-PME supplies. Yup sorry, I think I misread that last post slightly. Assuming in the OPs installation its confirmed as the supply being PME, then indeed all that is required is replacing the missing bond. My comment above is the more general version - that if the supply status is unknown, the enquiry wit the DNO may be the only *sure* way of establishing if its safe to make use of the suppliers neutral for the local earth. (The type of cutout does not tell you much since they often the same type for all TN supplies - the only difference being whether the internal link joining N & E is fitted). There are a lot of noncompliant supply incomers around, but they were all compliant at time of installation. Eg 30A rated, touchable live parts, dp fusing, asbestos etc. To the best of my knowledge it has never been compliant to provide a neutral earth from a non-PME supply, hence I would not expect to ever see a non-PME neutral earth connection in this country. If you want to check with the DNO you can, but is there any realistic basis for the claimed need to? Say you wanted to convert from TT to PME. If your cutout installation predated the network upgrade but was otherwise of an appropriate type, then you would need to check with the DNO prior to fitting the missing link (or more likely having them fit it) Are you saying some sparks were in the habit of fitting a supplier's neutral to MET link on TT feeds, and using only that for the house's earth system? If so I wasn't aware one could buy the links, nor that sparks were being so irresponsoble. NT |
Earthing through plastic pipe
On 17/02/2020 20:16, wrote:
On Monday, 17 February 2020 15:07:36 UTC, John Rumm wrote: On 17/02/2020 12:24, tabbypurr wrote: On Monday, 17 February 2020 03:26:14 UTC, John Rumm wrote: On 16/02/2020 18:49, tabbypurr wrote: On Sunday, 16 February 2020 15:44:19 UTC, John Rumm wrote: On 15/02/2020 17:54, tabbypurr wrote: On Saturday, 15 February 2020 09:59:41 UTC, Robin wrote: On 15/02/2020 08:35, tabbypurr wrote: On Friday, 14 February 2020 11:08:57 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , TimW wrote: There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying "Do Not Remove". The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the plastic pipe out to the outside world? It was common many many years ago to provide the earth via the water pipe. Not so today. Get your leccy board in to sort it out. It's nothing to do with the leccy board. Meanwhile what might help Tim is to know that the relevant function of "Electricity Boards" was transferred as part of the privatisation of the industry to distribution network operators (DNOs). As John has already pointed out they can and do deal with earthing - although they may charge (and will require main bonding to be up to current requirements before they supply PME). https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/electricity/earthing The job required is on the OP's installation, not a job for the DNO on their equipment. Well its both... You could wire up your installation as if it were TN-C-S, but that would not be a sensible thing to do if the DNO had not constructed or upgraded the local distribution network to support it. all that's required is to equi bond the water pipe. AFAIK suppliers don't provide neutral earth terminals on non-PME supplies. Yup sorry, I think I misread that last post slightly. Assuming in the OPs installation its confirmed as the supply being PME, then indeed all that is required is replacing the missing bond. My comment above is the more general version - that if the supply status is unknown, the enquiry wit the DNO may be the only *sure* way of establishing if its safe to make use of the suppliers neutral for the local earth. (The type of cutout does not tell you much since they often the same type for all TN supplies - the only difference being whether the internal link joining N & E is fitted). There are a lot of noncompliant supply incomers around, but they were all compliant at time of installation. Eg 30A rated, touchable live parts, dp fusing, asbestos etc. To the best of my knowledge it has never been compliant to provide a neutral earth from a non-PME supply, hence I would not expect to ever see a non-PME neutral earth connection in this country. If you want to check with the DNO you can, but is there any realistic basis for the claimed need to? Say you wanted to convert from TT to PME. If your cutout installation predated the network upgrade but was otherwise of an appropriate type, then you would need to check with the DNO prior to fitting the missing link (or more likely having them fit it) Are you saying some sparks were in the habit of fitting a supplier's neutral to MET link on TT feeds, and using only that for the house's earth system? No. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
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