UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,829
Default The last census?

The next census might be the last?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51468919

Just like the previous one was supposed to be the last?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10584385

  #2   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,212
Default The last census?

On 12/02/20 07:13, Andy Burns wrote:
The next census might be the last?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51468919

Just like the previous one was supposed to be the last?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10584385


More wasted money on legalised snooping. Why don't they just pay Google
for the info?

Every ten years I have fun trying to (legally) make it as difficult as
possible for the coders/OCR equipment to read my census return. For
example, many years ago the requirement was for it to be completed in
blue or black ink. That year I used the palest blue colour I could find
- it was almost indistinguishable from the background, but it /was/
blue. The next time it was a requirement for the ink to be black, so I
used a square font (like the one here
https://www.dafont.com/squarefont.font) with the lines of the letters
entered without spacing between them and the edges of the black boxes.
But the ink /was/ black.

I wonder what the requirement will be next year?

--

Jeff
  #3   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2
Default The last census?

On 12/02/2020 08:12, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 12/02/20 07:13, Andy Burns wrote:
The next census might be the last?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51468919

Just like the previous one was supposed to be the last?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10584385


More wasted money on legalised snooping. Why don't they just pay Google
for the info?

Every ten years I have fun trying to (legally) make it as difficult as
possible for the coders/OCR equipment to read my census return.


Well assuming a team of people are being paid to manually enter any
tricky forms, that's even more money wasted then. Well done.

For
example, many years ago the requirement was for it to be completed in
blue or black ink. That year I used the palest blue colour I could find
- it was almost indistinguishable from the background, but it /was/
blue. The next time it was a requirement for the ink to be black, so I
used a square font (like the one here
https://www.dafont.com/squarefont.font) with the lines of the letters
entered without spacing between them and the edges of the black boxes.
But the ink /was/ black.

I wonder what the requirement will be next year?


  #4   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,066
Default The last census?

On Wednesday, 12 February 2020 08:12:55 UTC, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 12/02/20 07:13, Andy Burns wrote:
The next census might be the last?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51468919

Just like the previous one was supposed to be the last?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10584385


More wasted money on legalised snooping. Why don't they just pay Google
for the info?

Every ten years I have fun trying to (legally) make it as difficult as
possible for the coders/OCR equipment to read my census return. For
example, many years ago the requirement was for it to be completed in
blue or black ink. That year I used the palest blue colour I could find
- it was almost indistinguishable from the background, but it /was/
blue. The next time it was a requirement for the ink to be black, so I
used a square font (like the one here
https://www.dafont.com/squarefont.font) with the lines of the letters
entered without spacing between them and the edges of the black boxes.
But the ink /was/ black.

I wonder what the requirement will be next year?



Are you an illegal immigrant?
  #5   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,829
Default The last census?

Jeff Layman wrote:

Why don't they just pay Google for the info?


Last time they suggested the credit reference agencies knew it all ...


  #6   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,212
Default The last census?

On 12/02/20 08:28, Richard Conway wrote:
On 12/02/2020 08:12, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 12/02/20 07:13, Andy Burns wrote:
The next census might be the last?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51468919

Just like the previous one was supposed to be the last?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10584385


More wasted money on legalised snooping. Why don't they just pay Google
for the info?

Every ten years I have fun trying to (legally) make it as difficult as
possible for the coders/OCR equipment to read my census return.


Well assuming a team of people are being paid to manually enter any
tricky forms, that's even more money wasted then. Well done.


I do my best. But it is a drop in the ocean compared to the overall cost
of a census.

The Census Act 1920 was a short, but very well written piece of
legislation which makes it impossible to refuse to complete a census
request. Well, you /can/ refuse, but it leads to a conviction, fine, and
another request to complete the census form. Refuse that, and another
fine, etc (maybe eventually leading to even a "contempt of court"
conviction). It's obviously a really heinous crime in the eyes of the UK
Government.

Nearly all the information available from a census is obtainable form
other sources (the birth, marriage, and death register is a good start).
Some countries have realised this and don't require a general census
(see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_and_housing_censuses_by_country#Methods _of_conducting_population_census).

If those countries can do it, why can't we? After every census, there is
talk of abolishing it, but it gets nowhere. Even talk of making the 2021
census fillable online misses the point; it's just not necessary as the
information is already out there. If anything sensible is required which
/isn't/ out there, well, great, ask for it - but specifically.

Resistance may be futile, but if upsets the "governmental Borgs" in any
way, it is worthwhile IMHO.

--

Jeff
  #7   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,212
Default The last census?

On 12/02/20 08:50, harry wrote:
On Wednesday, 12 February 2020 08:12:55 UTC, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 12/02/20 07:13, Andy Burns wrote:
The next census might be the last?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51468919

Just like the previous one was supposed to be the last?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10584385


More wasted money on legalised snooping. Why don't they just pay Google
for the info?

Every ten years I have fun trying to (legally) make it as difficult as
possible for the coders/OCR equipment to read my census return. For
example, many years ago the requirement was for it to be completed in
blue or black ink. That year I used the palest blue colour I could find
- it was almost indistinguishable from the background, but it /was/
blue. The next time it was a requirement for the ink to be black, so I
used a square font (like the one here
https://www.dafont.com/squarefont.font) with the lines of the letters
entered without spacing between them and the edges of the black boxes.
But the ink /was/ black.

I wonder what the requirement will be next year?



Are you an illegal immigrant?


No. If I was could probably claim it was in my "Human Rights" to not
complete the census form and get away with it!

--

Jeff
  #8   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 812
Default The last census?

I'd have thought Google will be able to do it any time you like unless you
are a non person, ie never been on line or banked with any services which
uses google systems or do not live in a council area using google services.
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
The next census might be the last?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51468919

Just like the previous one was supposed to be the last?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10584385



  #9   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,062
Default The last census?

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
The next census might be the last?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51468919

Just like the previous one was supposed to be the last?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10584385


Irrespective of the way in which the information is collected (census
document sent to every household or "other sources") I wonder if the
information that is gathered will be kept for posterity and for the use of
future genealogists 100 years from now when it is released from the 100-year
embargo.

I wonder how the accuracy and completeness of the "other sources" of
information will be checked. I think it is an offence to give false
information (or no information) in the census, but I bet it's not for the
"other sources", so the quality and completeness of data will be highly
suspect. Using electoral rolls as the primary source of the census is dodgy
because some people choose not to go on the electoral roll (thus forfeiting
their right to vote) because they want to remain "under the radar"; other
people are on the electoral roll in two places (eg home and university)
which has always seemed a dubious practice even if they only vote in one
place - it leads to some people (but not others) being able to choose which
constituency will benefit more from their vote.

How are people identified in a census - I've forgotten? Is it just by name
or does each person in a household have to give a unique ID such as National
Insurance number? If they gave NI number, it would make it much easier for
genealogists to trace the correct John Smith as he moves from house to house
between one census and the next.

  #10   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15
Default The last census?

On Wed, 12 Feb 2020 07:13:00 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

The next census might be the last?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51468919

Just like the previous one was supposed to be the last?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10584385


The census is quite a valuable source of information for those doing
family genealogy. What annoys a genealogists, historians & family
members doing research is the UK's insistence on sticking rigidly to the
"100 year rule" whereby the 1921 census will be released in 2022. The US &
Australian census (for example) are released under a "72 year rule" & can
be researched up until 1940, & the US 1950 Federal census will be released
in 2022.



  #11   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,237
Default The last census?

Jeff Layman wrote:

On 12/02/20 08:50, harry wrote:
On Wednesday, 12 February 2020 08:12:55 UTC, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 12/02/20 07:13, Andy Burns wrote:
The next census might be the last?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51468919

Just like the previous one was supposed to be the last?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10584385

More wasted money on legalised snooping. Why don't they just pay Google
for the info?

Every ten years I have fun trying to (legally) make it as difficult as
possible for the coders/OCR equipment to read my census return. For
example, many years ago the requirement was for it to be completed in
blue or black ink. That year I used the palest blue colour I could find
- it was almost indistinguishable from the background, but it /was/
blue. The next time it was a requirement for the ink to be black, so I
used a square font (like the one here
https://www.dafont.com/squarefont.font) with the lines of the letters
entered without spacing between them and the edges of the black boxes.
But the ink /was/ black.

I wonder what the requirement will be next year?



Are you an illegal immigrant?


No. If I was could probably claim it was in my "Human Rights" to not
complete the census form and get away with it!


It seems a strange delusion that illegal immigrants somehow have more
access to human rights than the rest of us. On the contrary, they are
just more likely to be a position to need to appeal to the courts
regarding their rights. It there is a human rights ground to object to
the census (or anything else for that matter) then you have as much
access to it as anyone else.


--

Roger Hayter
  #12   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 229
Default The last census?

On 12/02/2020 09:30, Brian Gaff (Sofa 2) wrote:
I'd have thought Google will be able to do it any time you like unless you
are a non person, ie never been on line or banked with any services which
uses google systems or do not live in a council area using google services.
Brian


I suspect that there are quite a lot of people who have managed to escape the system. When elections come around it usually turns out that something like 30% of young people are not registered to vote. Some of them are probably just lazy but others, I think, deliberately don't register in order to avoid official notice such as the tax system. Many of them, no doubt, get picked up by officialdom in other ways, but there is almost certainly a residue who escape all notice. Some of them will be homeless with no regular job - just what a decent census ought to tell the government about.

--
Clive Page
  #13   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,431
Default The last census?

On Wed, 12 Feb 2020 09:25:31 +0000, Jeff Layman
wrote:

snip


Nearly all the information available from a census is obtainable form
other sources (the birth, marriage, and death register is a good start).


snip

My Mrs just had to renew her driving licence (because she's nearly 70
I think). She had her old (paper) driving licence but that (and a
photo) wasn't good enough to be able to issue a replacement
apparently, so because she didn't have a passport or any of the other
acceptable ID related things, had to send an original birth and
marriage cert's.

I get why etc, but as has been mentioned, these agencies have enough
information on us anyway but 1) *they* requested of her she update her
licence and 2) she (or someone fraudulently) has just replaced her
paper licence with no photo with one with a photo licence (of them if
it was fraudulent etc). Was all that because a photo licence would be
more powerful as a form of ID (to a fraudster) compared with the old
type?

Cheers, T i m

p.s. I still have the green paper licence and believe it has been
refused as ID in some instances as it's not 'Photo ID'. I just enjoy
not having to replace it but maybe I could as I may not have that many
'every 10 years' (is it?) left. ;-)


  #14   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,019
Default The last census?

On 12/02/2020 09:43, NY wrote:
"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...



How are people identified in a census - I've forgotten? Is it just by
name or does each person in a household have to give a unique ID such as
National Insurance number? If they gave NI number, it would make it much
easier for genealogists to trace the correct John Smith as he moves from
house to house between one census and the next.


I've heard it said that most Americans (land of the free) know their
social security number. I've always thought that the NI number had some
merits as a potentially unique identifier. There are places that use it
as your login ID on the computer system.
  #15   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 851
Default The last census?

On 12/02/2020 08:12, Jeff Layman wrote:

Every ten years I have fun trying to (legally) make it as difficult as
possible for the coders/OCR equipment to read my census return. For
example, many years ago the requirement was for it to be completed in
blue or black ink. That year I used the palest blue colour I could find
- it was almost indistinguishable from the background, but it /was/
blue. The next time it was a requirement for the ink to be black, so I
used a square font (like the one here
https://www.dafont.com/squarefont.font) with the lines of the letters
entered without spacing between them and the edges of the black boxes.
But the ink /was/ black.

I wonder what the requirement will be next year?


I don't remember the wording on the last census form but for at least
the last 12 to 15 years I've declined the "invitation" to be part of the
"electrol roll" or to name others at the address.

The form of lies is always addressed to "the occupier" which is not a
name I am familiar with at the address to which it's posted so it always
gets returned ANR RTS.
Likewise, even if I were to open it I still couldn't complete it as the
box that requires a signature also requires the ALL CAPITALS NAME to be
entered and a signature bonding the signatory to the fact that they then
become liable to a £1000 fine should something not be correct.

That's not a contract that benefits me and I can't sign it under a false
NAME, that's fraud.

Bloody council canvasser scum just get a "no thankyou" and the door shut
on them, to which they say "so I'll take that as a refusal then"

No joinder no problem.







  #16   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 851
Default The last census?

On 12/02/2020 08:50, Andy Burns wrote:
Jeff Layman wrote:

Why don't they just pay Google for the info?


Last time they suggested the credit reference agencies knew it all ...


I recently purchased a 30 day contract data only SIM card in my mothers
name to provide a VoIP phone in her room at the care home. Had it
delivered to the house that I frequent (which I don't complete electoral
roll for) and within days of it turning up a letter came from the local
authority addressed to her stating she is a resident of the property.

Needless to say it was returned stating the person in question did not
live at the address.

So councils are already using mobile phone accounts, and presumably
mobile phone accounts/contracts have a get-out clause to skip GDPR
presumably the "I accept" button when ordering on-line.


  #17   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,062
Default The last census?

"www.GymRatZ.co.uk" wrote in message
...
On 12/02/2020 08:12, Jeff Layman wrote:

Every ten years I have fun trying to (legally) make it as difficult as
possible for the coders/OCR equipment to read my census return. For
example, many years ago the requirement was for it to be completed in
blue or black ink. That year I used the palest blue colour I could find
- it was almost indistinguishable from the background, but it /was/
blue. The next time it was a requirement for the ink to be black, so I
used a square font (like the one here
https://www.dafont.com/squarefont.font) with the lines of the letters
entered without spacing between them and the edges of the black boxes.
But the ink /was/ black.

I wonder what the requirement will be next year?


I don't remember the wording on the last census form but for at least
the last 12 to 15 years I've declined the "invitation" to be part of the
"electrol roll" or to name others at the address.

The form of lies is always addressed to "the occupier" which is not a
name I am familiar with at the address to which it's posted so it always
gets returned ANR RTS.


I think most people who had their brain switched on and not in bloody-minded
mode would regard "The Occupier" as a "matches-anything" wildcard name. They
can't address the form to the last known occupier by name, because he may
have moved out and someone else moved in since the last time they got the
info - and anyway, there may not *be* a name registered at that address if
it was someone who refused to return the filled-in form.

I think the offence is failing to provide *any* information as well as
returning false information, so you should expect it to be chased-up (if
they have the time, which is what you're banking on).

Likewise, even if I were to open it I still couldn't complete it as the
box that requires a signature also requires the ALL CAPITALS NAME to be
entered and a signature bonding the signatory to the fact that they then
become liable to a £1000 fine should something not be correct.

That's not a contract that benefits me and I can't sign it under a false
NAME, that's fraud.


You mean, because you think you have to sign your name as "The Occupier"
(since that's who it was addressed to) rather than the name that you fill in
at the top of the form? Use a *little* bit of common sense.


Bloody council canvasser scum just get a "no thankyou" and the door shut
on them, to which they say "so I'll take that as a refusal then"

No joinder no problem.


No vote, though, for you or anyone who lives there. Maybe that doesn't
bother you. I wonder what happens if the head of the household refuses to
fill in the form but someone else who lives there (wife, children) wants to
vote. Is there a mechanism for someone who is not the head of the household
to submit just their name, to secure their right to vote.


I'm obviously just too much of a goody-goody. I've never felt the slightest
inclination not to do what I regard as my moral (as well as legal) duty by
adding myself to the electoral roll and the census. I want my details
excluded from the publicly-viewable electoral roll, but only because spam
merchants are legally allowed to use this information as a mailing list. If
I had my way, I'd bang up every single person who sends any unsolicited
mail/phone-calls/email, irrespective of whether it was fraudulent or
honest - the sin is the mere act of sending it.

  #18   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 851
Default The last census?

On 12/02/2020 10:04, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2020 09:25:31 +0000, Jeff Layman

snip
p.s. I still have the green paper licence and believe it has been
refused as ID in some instances as it's not 'Photo ID'. I just enjoy
not having to replace it but maybe I could as I may not have that many
'every 10 years' (is it?) left. ;


I have a driving licence with a photo ID on the reverse and ignored all
the threats of £1000 fine for not renewing it once 10 years (?) had passed.

What people don't realise is it's 2 cards in 1. One side is the driving
licence which has the expiry date for each class of vehicle as being the
drivers 70th(?) birthday and the other side is a picture I.D. which has
a 10(?) year expiry. The deception is with the implication that the
driving licence becomes invalid after 10 years which it doesn't.



  #19   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,062
Default The last census?

"newshound" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 12/02/2020 09:43, NY wrote:
"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...



How are people identified in a census - I've forgotten? Is it just by
name or does each person in a household have to give a unique ID such as
National Insurance number? If they gave NI number, it would make it much
easier for genealogists to trace the correct John Smith as he moves from
house to house between one census and the next.


I've heard it said that most Americans (land of the free) know their
social security number. I've always thought that the NI number had some
merits as a potentially unique identifier. There are places that use it as
your login ID on the computer system.


I certainly know my NI number - it's used for filling in tax returns and
various other things that are not *directly* related to state pension and NI
contributions to build up credits for pension.

But then I'm the sort of person who can remember all my car registrations
and the postcodes and phone numbers of all the houses I've lived at. ;-)

I can see a lot of benefit from using some form of ID number (and NI is as
good as any) as the number on lots of databases, as an easy means of
relating one database to another *once the legal confidentiality "just
cause" conditions have been met*.

  #20   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,829
Default The last census?

www.GymRatZ.co.uk wrote:

The deception is with the implication that the
driving licence becomes invalid after 10 years which it doesn't.


Let's hope PC Plod doesn't have a SOH failure if you get stopped.

Speaking of which, travelling home on the M1 yesterday and the gantry
speed limits ahead were on 50 (there's been a closed bridge off one of
the nottingham junctions, making the other junctions very busy at rush hour)

I slowed to an indicated 51mph (which is actual 49 or 50mph in my car)
by the time I went under it, but matey-boy in a van undertook me right
at the gantry and the camera flash went off ... hopefully the system is
good at discriminating which is the offending lane?


  #21   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,364
Default The last census?

On Wednesday, 12 February 2020 09:30:18 UTC, Brian Gaff (Sofa 2) wrote:
"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
The next census might be the last?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51468919

Just like the previous one was supposed to be the last?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10584385


I'd have thought Google will be able to do it any time you like unless you
are a non person, ie never been on line or banked with any services which
uses google systems or do not live in a council area using google services.
Brian


.... but the results would be amusing. Characters like Lord Snotblogger would turn out to have many residences.
  #22   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,204
Default The last census?

On Wednesday, 12 February 2020 08:12:55 UTC, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 12/02/20 07:13, Andy Burns wrote:
The next census might be the last?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51468919

Just like the previous one was supposed to be the last?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10584385


More wasted money on legalised snooping. Why don't they just pay Google
for the info?

Every ten years I have fun trying to (legally) make it as difficult as
possible for the coders/OCR equipment to read my census return. For
example, many years ago the requirement was for it to be completed in
blue or black ink. That year I used the palest blue colour I could find
- it was almost indistinguishable from the background, but it /was/
blue. The next time it was a requirement for the ink to be black, so I
used a square font (like the one here
https://www.dafont.com/squarefont.font) with the lines of the letters
entered without spacing between them and the edges of the black boxes.
But the ink /was/ black.

I wonder what the requirement will be next year?


if I were checking this forms or wrote software to do it's I'd mark these individuals down as mentally deficient.


  #23   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 851
Default The last census?

On 12/02/2020 10:39, NY wrote:
"www.GymRatZ.co.uk" wrote in
message ...
On 12/02/2020 08:12, Jeff Layman wrote:

snip
I think the offence is failing to provide *any* information as well as
returning false information, so you should expect it to be chased-up (if
they have the time, which is what you're banking on).


But you have to sign the form in the box which states something along
the lines of "I the undersigned accept that I will be liable to a fine
of £1000 if I have provided any information that is falsified or untrue"


No vote, though, for you or anyone who lives there. Maybe that doesn't
bother you. I wonder what happens if the head of the household refuses
to fill in the form but someone else who lives there (wife, children)
wants to vote. Is there a mechanism for someone who is not the head of
the household to submit just their name, to secure their right to vote.


Anyone that wants to vote can register on-line, it's their prerogative
and not my duty to divulge information THEY might wish to retain as
confidential or anonymous.

Even though I haven't filled in the council "request" for information a
polling card still comes to me, in my name at the same address
presumably because it's the last known and validated place of residence.

I'm obviously just too much of a goody-goody. I've never felt the
slightest inclination not to do what I regard as my moral (as well as
legal) duty by adding myself to the electoral roll and the census. I
want my details excluded from the publicly-viewable electoral roll, but
only because spam merchants are legally allowed to use this information
as a mailing list. If I had my way, I'd bang up every single person who
sends any unsolicited mail/phone-calls/email, irrespective of whether it
was fraudulent or honest - the sin is the mere act of sending it.


How can you complain about loss of privacy when you're openly admitting
to unquestionable compliance and acceptance?

The first time I refused to file the electoral roll was when the form
had very ambiguous wording with regards to the "open register" it used a
combination of double negatives and contradicted it's self there was no
way of knowing whether you were opting in to being off the list or on
the list. One section implied one thing and the other implied the
opposite.

Since then I've saved myself the hassle of endless spam and junk mail by
not volunteering ANY information. The "sin" of which you speak is that
of you personally gifting companies your personal data and the
authorities that actually distribute such data for profit.
The fault lies with you for not accepting responsibility for your own
privacy.

  #24   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 25,191
Default The last census?

On 12/02/2020 09:25, Jeff Layman wrote:

Nearly all the information available from a census is obtainable form
other sources (the birth, marriage, and death register is a good start).
Some countries have realised this and don't require a general census


That is one of those "yes in theory" kind of things, that tends to
collapse into chaos the moment you look at the implementation details.

The reality is that the information that exists is spread across
multiple databases - not necessarily all accessible centrally. All these
databases are "not connected" - not only physically - different
incompatible systems, different networks / repositories, but also
logically not connected - They are all using different key fields and
with no way of accurately joining records from one with another, with
any assurance that you have linked the correct records together. Even
when correctly joined there is no way of resolving conflicts between
them. You also have the difficulty that the data were collected for a
myriad of different purposes, so there is a high likelihood that the
answers are give in completely different contexts, and hence could be
considered "wrong" for census purposes.

If those countries can do it, why can't we?


Can they do it as well as we do it? Do they do it for the same purpose?



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/
  #25   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 25,191
Default The last census?

On 12/02/2020 08:50, Andy Burns wrote:
Jeff Layman wrote:

Why don't they just pay Google for the info?


Last time they suggested the credit reference agencies knew it all ...


So by extension, thanks to Experian's lack of web server patching
capability, so does the Chinese spy agency ;-)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/


  #26   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,829
Default The last census?

John Rumm wrote:

by extension, thanks to Experian's lack of web server patching
capability, so does the Chinese spy agency ;-)


Equifax too.

  #27   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2
Default The last census?

On 12/02/2020 09:25, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 12/02/20 08:28, Richard Conway wrote:
On 12/02/2020 08:12, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 12/02/20 07:13, Andy Burns wrote:
The next census might be the last?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51468919

Just like the previous one was supposed to be the last?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10584385

More wasted money on legalised snooping. Why don't they just pay Google
for the info?

Every ten years I have fun trying to (legally) make it as difficult as
possible for the coders/OCR equipment to read my census return.


Well assuming a team of people are being paid to manually enter any
tricky forms, that's even more money wasted then. Well done.


I do my best. But it is a drop in the ocean compared to the overall cost
of a census.

The Census Act 1920 was a short, but very well written piece of
legislation which makes it impossible to refuse to complete a census
request. Well, you /can/ refuse, but it leads to a conviction, fine, and
another request to complete the census form. Refuse that, and another
fine, etc (maybe eventually leading to even a "contempt of court"
conviction). It's obviously a really heinous crime in the eyes of the UK
Government.

Nearly all the information available from a census is obtainable form
other sources (the birth, marriage, and death register is a good start).
Some countries have realised this and don't require a general census
(see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_and_housing_censuses_by_country#Methods _of_conducting_population_census).


I guess it's like a stocktake. A shop's sales system can track stock
deliveries and sales, but they still need to stocktake to account for
anything that's been missed.

If those countries can do it, why can't we? After every census, there is
talk of abolishing it, but it gets nowhere. Even talk of making the 2021
census fillable online misses the point; it's just not necessary as the
information is already out there. If anything sensible is required which
/isn't/ out there, well, great, ask for it - but specifically.

Resistance may be futile, but if upsets the "governmental Borgs" in any
way, it is worthwhile IMHO.


  #28   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,062
Default The last census?

"Martyn Barclay" wrote in message
news
The census is quite a valuable source of information for those doing
family genealogy. What annoys a genealogists, historians & family
members doing research is the UK's insistence on sticking rigidly to the
"100 year rule" whereby the 1921 census will be released in 2022. The US &
Australian census (for example) are released under a "72 year rule" & can
be researched up until 1940, & the US 1950 Federal census will be released
in 2022.


It is also scary how many errors creep into transcriptions of census and
birth/marriage/death records. My mum discovered this when she happened to
check her birth record in the index at Kew and noticed that her mother's
maiden name was recorded incorrectly: an O had been mis-read as a C (the
perils of flowery joined-up handwriting instead of capitals!). Kew confirmed
that this error also affected the full record from which a certificate would
be made. It took her a long time to get this officially corrected:
fortunately her father was alive at the time and was able to sign a
statement to the effect that his dead wife's maiden surname had been X, to
corroborate what was on the marriage certificate. As with many things, if
there's a discrepancy you need *three* sources of information to show which
one was the incorrect one; initially Kew said "how do we know that it wasn't
an error on your mother's marriage certificate rather than an error on your
birth certificate?".

On transcriptions of censuses done by genealogists, some of whom aren't too
good at reading old handwriting, it's amazing how many people in rural areas
were "daisy farmers", which should have been "dairy farmers" ;-) It got to
the stage that when my dad was writing a database data-entry program for
censuses, he had a list of common mis-readings which prompted a warning "are
you sure - get someone else to verify this".

I wonder what information will be released in 100 years' time for censuses
that I appear on. Will they tabulate and release all the answers to
questions about religion, income, sexual orientation and race? It would be
interesting if the census office released specimen entries for each of the
forthcoming censuses as a list of column headings, so you knew what was
coming. We'll find out in two years' time what info the 1921 census
contains.

Were there any cases when the wife was listed as head of the household even
though her husband was still alive and living at the same address - ie where
"Relation to head" was listed as "husband".


FindMyPast recently released a special "census" ("The 1939 Register"
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/1939register) that was carried out when WWII
was expected, with the names of anyone who was now dead being listed and the
name of anyone still alive (supposedly) being redacted. My mum was amused to
see that her entry (as a young child) was not redacted so she was visible
alongside her (dead) parents' names. She was quite happy for it to remain
that way, but she contacted FindMyPast to alert them to the error, even if
she declined their offer to redact it from now on. Interestingly, her entry
lists her married name as well as her maiden name, so someone must have gone
through and retrospectively annotated the 1939 entry with much more recent
information from her 1960s marriage.

  #29   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,213
Default The last census?

Brian,

The older census results (when they were possibly more complete
and accurate) are a treasure trove for genealogists and
researchers.

Some people will not be happy to lose future editions.

If the government wants to know where all the people are,
they can always demand all the records from the phone companies
and supermarkets.

Andrew

On 12/02/2020 09:30, Brian Gaff (Sofa 2) wrote:
I'd have thought Google will be able to do it any time you like unless you
are a non person, ie never been on line or banked with any services which
uses google systems or do not live in a council area using google services.
Brian


  #30   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,062
Default The last census?

"Pamela" wrote in message
...
My Mrs just had to renew her driving licence (because she's nearly 70
I think).


"I think"! Don't you know her age?


That reminds me of a very funny incident. When my grandpa married for the
second time, some years after my grandma died, my dad acted as my grandpa's
(his father-in-law's) best man (*). When it came to the signing of the
registers, when ages are shown on the marriage certificate, dad reports that
grandpa muttered to him "bloody hell, I didn't know she was that old". The
difference in ages between grandpa and his new wife was only a matter of a
year or so, but grandpa evidently though his new wife was slightly younger,
rather than slightly older, than him.

Caveat emptor ;=) Or "try before you buy" ;-)


(*) Probably because grandpa didn't have any male blood-relatives or friends
that he could ask, so he asked his son-in-law to be his best man.



  #31   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 851
Default The last census?

On 12/02/2020 10:57, Andy Burns wrote:
www.GymRatZ.co.uk wrote:

The deception is with the implication that the
driving licence becomes invalid after 10 years which it doesn't.


Let's hope PC Plod doesn't have a SOH failure if you get stopped.


I'll find out as I have to go on a naughty-boy speed awareness course at
the end of the month and will take my OOD I.D. card with me.


Speaking of which, travelling home on the M1 yesterday and the gantry
speed limits ahead were on 50 (there's been a closed bridge off one of
the nottingham junctions, making the other junctions very busy at rush
hour)

I slowed to an indicated 51mph (which is actual 49 or 50mph in my car)
by the time I went under it, but matey-boy in a van undertook me right
at the gantry and the camera flash went off ... hopefully the system is
good at discriminating which is the offending lane?


Well... My speed-school offer was triggered by a local gantry camera.
I'm extremely careful when the "smart" speed limits are up and always
GPS and cruise control however 12:30 Christmas day no speed limit was
shown and in my stupidity I simply forgot about the camera.
The "new" and apparently ultra clever series 3.0 cams (2 x yellow boxes
mounted on the gantry supporting pole) triggered at 81 mph.

If the gantry was displaying 70 or national speed limit my attention
would have been drawn to the possibility of a snapshot but no such clue
was afforded.

The on-line evidence has sight-lines superimposed onto the pictures and
a circle around the numberplate of the vehicle that triggered the event.

There was also a picture taken from a camera several hundred yards
before the gantry showing what limits were being displayed (if any) at
the time the speed cam. was triggered.

I think they'll know who the culprit was.



  #32   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,829
Default The last census?

www.GymRatZ.co.uk wrote:

My speed-school offer was triggered by a local gantry camera.
I'm extremely careful when the "smart" speed limits are up and always
GPS and cruise control however 12:30 Christmas day no speed limit was
shown and in my stupidity I simply forgot about the camera.
The "new" and apparently ultra clever series 3.0 cams (2 x yellow boxes
mounted on the gantry supporting pole) triggered at 81 mph.

If the gantry was displaying 70 or national speed limit my attention
would have been drawn to the possibility of a snapshot but no such clue
was afforded.


I've always treated the M1 cameras north of Leicester and south of
Sheffield as "off", so long as they aren't displaying a number or NSL
symbol, they might have a default limit, but it must be well into three
digits.
  #33   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,062
Default The last census?

"www.GymRatZ.co.uk" wrote in message
...
Well... My speed-school offer was triggered by a local gantry camera.
I'm extremely careful when the "smart" speed limits are up and always
GPS and cruise control however 12:30 Christmas day no speed limit was
shown and in my stupidity I simply forgot about the camera.
The "new" and apparently ultra clever series 3.0 cams (2 x yellow boxes
mounted on the gantry supporting pole) triggered at 81 mph.

If the gantry was displaying 70 or national speed limit my attention
would have been drawn to the possibility of a snapshot but no such clue
was afforded.


I *usually* keep fairly well to speed limits, especially the normal 70 on a
motorway. In my wife's car, I set the cruise control or speed limiter to
prevent me exceeding a temporary 50 limit in roadworks. And my car has a
blanket 5 mph over-reading of about 5 mph (compared with GPS) so if I think
I'm doing 70 I'm actually doing 65, and if I think I'm doing 30 I'm doing
25.

But I'm no saint, and I do tend to go a bit above 30 on a road that "looks"
as if it should have a 40 limit (eg good sight lines of houses and their
drives, no school etc nearby). So far, in 40 years of driving, I've somehow
avoided getting stopped or flashed by a camera.

I think the only times I've ever been stopped by the police were firstly at
about 11 PM (pub chucking-out time) when I was doing a couple of mph over a
30 limit, and maybe the police were doing spot-checks of offenders on the
off-chance of catching drunks. As luck would have it, I'd renewed my tax
disc that day so I had my insurance cover note, MOT certificate, receipt of
buying next tax disc and driving licence with me in the car (this was in the
days before online verification of insurance and MOT status - and online
purchase of tax disc). So the police officer asked for each document in turn
and I was able to produce each one - he looked as if he was hoping to catch
me out and make me "produce" a document at the Plod Shop. He checked my
lights and tyres - all fine. At least he had a sense of humour and commented
"can't catch you out on *anything*, can I". And as he was walking back to
his car, he called over his shoulder "you were only *just* above 30 - make
sure you don't do it again", so he was using his discretion rather than
being officious. The second time I was stopped, my tax disc holder fell off
the windscreen just as I was approaching a police car. All credit to his
powers of observation: he probably had about 5 seconds to see that I wasn't
displaying the disc before he passed me. As I was pulling over in a safe
place, to stick it back on, he pulled up behind me having presumably done a
U-turn, but he acknowledged that he'd seen the disc before it fell off, so
he was coming back to *warn* me, but I was already sorting it out.

  #34   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 43,017
Default [OT] The last census?

In article ,
Pamela wrote:
Much as I find the census intrusive, I think it's worth the hassle if it
helps locate illegal immigrants.


Would illegal immigrants fill in a census form?

--
*Fax is stronger than fiction *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #35   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,431
Default The last census?

On Wed, 12 Feb 2020 10:57:51 +0000, Andy Burns
wrote:

snip

Speaking of which, travelling home on the M1 yesterday and the gantry
speed limits ahead were on 50 (there's been a closed bridge off one of
the nottingham junctions, making the other junctions very busy at rush hour)

I slowed to an indicated 51mph (which is actual 49 or 50mph in my car)
by the time I went under it, but matey-boy in a van undertook me right
at the gantry and the camera flash went off ... hopefully the system is
good at discriminating which is the offending lane?


Was it just one camera for all lanes, in which case it might be down
to an operator looking at the road-markings or if a camera per lane,
then the cameras themselves (with support from the markings)?

Cheers, T i m




  #36   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,431
Default The last census?

On Wed, 12 Feb 2020 12:36:37 GMT, Pamela
wrote:

On 10:04 12 Feb 2020, T i m wrote:

On Wed, 12 Feb 2020 09:25:31 +0000, Jeff Layman
wrote:

snip


Nearly all the information available from a census is obtainable form
other sources (the birth, marriage, and death register is a good start).


snip

My Mrs just had to renew her driving licence (because she's nearly 70
I think).


"I think"! Don't you know her age?


Rewind ... 'I think it was because she's nearly 70 she had to renew
her driving licence?' ;-)

But yes, I know she's 'nearly 70' but have no real idea of her (or
anyone else's for that matter) birthday (and so won't be 'celebrating'
it either etc). For balance, the Mrs rarely remember mine and doesn't
celebrate it either as nor do I.

I think daughter might be arranging something (some sort of gathering
possibly) but unless *very* small (/ restricted friends / family), I
won't be going (or be expected to go).

TBH, I'm not sure the Mrs would be up to celebrating her birthday,
even her 70th ... as it would be the day after her daughter had
reached 40, had she not died last March. ;-(

Cheers, T i m
  #37   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,829
Default The last census?

T i m wrote:

Was it just one camera for all lanes, in which case it might be down
to an operator looking at the road-markings or if a camera per lane,
then the cameras themselves (with support from the markings)?


I think camera per lane above, flash was certainly "from above", though
some gantries on that stretch have two cameras at the side of the road
looking at all lanes.
  #38   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 198
Default The last census?

On Wed, 12 Feb 2020 12:05:27 -0000, "NY" wrote:



I wonder what information will be released in 100 years' time for censuses
that I appear on. Will they tabulate and release all the answers to
questions about religion, income, sexual orientation and race? It would be
interesting if the census office released specimen entries for each of the
forthcoming censuses as a list of column headings, so you knew what was
coming. We'll find out in two years' time what info the 1921 census
contains.

If current experience is anything to go by then researchers will be
able to see the original documents, and all fields entered.


FindMyPast recently released a special "census" ("The 1939 Register"
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/1939register) that was carried out when WWII
was expected, with the names of anyone who was now dead being listed and the
name of anyone still alive (supposedly) being redacted. My mum was amused to
see that her entry (as a young child) was not redacted so she was visible
alongside her (dead) parents' names. She was quite happy for it to remain
that way, but she contacted FindMyPast to alert them to the error, even if
she declined their offer to redact it from now on. Interestingly, her entry
lists her married name as well as her maiden name, so someone must have gone
through and retrospectively annotated the 1939 entry with much more recent
information from her 1960s marriage.


Recently = 2015. It's also on Ancestry now, and seems to have been
updated with name changes on marriage until the 1990s.
I think the claim made by another contributor that there is/was a
connection in the census to the electoral register is mistaken.
  #39   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 923
Default The last census?

On Wed, 12 Feb 2020 11:16:34 +0000, "www.GymRatZ.co.uk"
wrote:

...
The first time I refused to file the electoral roll was when the form
had very ambiguous wording with regards to the "open register" it used a
combination of double negatives and contradicted it's self there was no
way of knowing whether you were opting in to being off the list or on
the list. One section implied one thing and the other implied the
opposite.

...

For heaven's sake, "contradicted it's self", which expands to
"contradicted it is self", should be "contradicted itself".
--
Dave W

  #40   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,034
Default The last census?

On 12/02/2020 10:33, www.GymRatZ.co.uk wrote:
On 12/02/2020 08:50, Andy Burns wrote:
Jeff Layman wrote:

Why don't they just pay Google for the info?


Last time they suggested the credit reference agencies knew it all ...


I recently purchased a 30 day contract data only SIM card in my mothers
name to provide a VoIP phone in her room at the care home. Had it
delivered to the house that I frequent (which I don't complete electoral
roll for) and within days of it turning up a letter came from the local
authority addressed to her stating she is a resident of the property.

Needless to say it was returned stating the person in question did not
live at the address.

So councils are already using mobile phone accounts, and presumably
mobile phone accounts/contracts have a get-out clause to skip GDPR
presumably the "I accept" button when ordering on-line.


The mobile phone company might well have done a credit search.

--
Michael Chare
Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2011 Census Steve Ackman Metalworking 15 April 8th 11 08:59 AM
Census/DIY direct action against Lockheed Martin John Stumbles UK diy 28 March 24th 11 08:49 AM
Duplicate Census Forms Oren[_2_] Home Repair 63 April 6th 10 05:30 PM
The 2010 Census has begun Oren[_2_] Home Repair 5 January 26th 10 03:23 PM
First political census worker killing Ouroboros Rex Electronic Schematics 0 September 24th 09 10:33 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:15 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 DIYbanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about DIY & home improvement"