On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 04:48:09 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the senile cretin's latest troll****

04:48??? LOL So it WILL be yet ANOTHER long long sleepless night for you,
you sick senile swine! tsk

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On 05/02/2020 10:48, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 05 Feb 2020 09:25:02 +0000, Tim Streater
wrote:

snip

Says a poor loser, who conveniently forgets the tales of economic
collapse told by losers.

Yes, he carefully overlooks all the Project Fear lies.

Because (and obviously you wouldn't get this on your own because you
are a left brainer), Leave won and only *Leaving* would be a change
from the status quo.

There was no status quo. The EU is constantly changing, taking in more
countries (people voted to be a group of 9 not 28), adding new rules and
laws or changing old ones. Remainers could no more say where the EU
would be in 20 years than leavers could about the UK - except that in
another 20 years, if the EU was heading in a direction that the UK
public did not like, our businesses and institutions would be that much
more intertwined that leaving would be nigh on impossible. The
difficulties and possible damages that you repeatedly list shows that
the window of opportunity to leave was closing and it was now or never.

If you dare someone to jump off a cliff (for no tangible reason, like
the false promise of something) and they don't, there is nothing lost,
it's only if they jump are questions likely to be asked and especially
your part in it.

There is no false promise in self-determination and independence.

I *really* CGAF if we left or stayed, as long as whatever we did was
decided honestly and fairly and was done democratically (a straight
advisory referendum first, then a people vote for starters) and where
liars *aren't* allowed to post lies on the sides of busses on the
grounds it's easier to get forgiveness than permission.

What about remainers - that the economy would collapse immediately after
a leave vote, that jobs would immediately disappear, that wages would
fall straight away.

Do you think for one second they would have been allowed to post the
lies on the side of the bust if they were required to go though some
sort of honesty audit first?

Probably some explanatory small-print would have been required.

Just as would have been required (and far more lines of it) with many of
"Project Fear's" claims.

Also, in your left brainer world, how many Remainers do you actually
think thought the sky would fall in ... but might just be cautious /
concerned that it might not actually do us the good that the Leavers
promised but couldn't justify?

So economic concerns are all that matters and self-determination has no
value?

There is nothing dangerous in being a glass half empty person,
especially when there is little tangible proof that the promise of
more water may just be hopes and dreams.

Except that worry about the future may just stop you making that journey
to find more water.

This is the problem with left brainers and cognitive bias, they think
that both sides are equal and that's far from the truth. Leavers and
only leavers were the activists and *have to* 'sell' the facts to
everone else. They didn't, they used tricks and lies.

No. Remaining was also about a process of change - and one where we we
could not make the decisions.

Democracy is something that happens continuously and why I can't
support (and never will) us Leaving the EU under those bogus grounds.

Hardly continuous when people are not given the opportunity to vote on
it for over 40 years!

SteveW

On 05/02/2020 11:06, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 09:29:27 +0000, Tim Lamb
wrote:

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
alan_m wrote:
On 04/02/2020 17:01, Custos Custodum wrote:

Correct. It was a suggestion, which Johnson fully endorsed. Every
stage hypnotist and sleight-of-hand operator knows the power of
suggestion. And all the Little Englanders fell for it.



Why do those who oppose leaving believe that 17 million people (and
maybe more during the last general election) were fooled by the 350
million figure especially with so much contemporary publicity saying
that the figure was a lie?

You didn't need 17 million to believe the lies. A couple of million was
enough to sway the vote. Plenty had perfectly acceptable reasons to want
to leave - even where others disagreed with them.

Basically, whoever paid for that bus, bought enough votes to influence
the outcome.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...-a3579676.html

"Mr Cummings also coined the groups official slogan €œvote leave, take
control€�. An official Vote Leave poster also claimed that €œTurkey
(population 76million) is joining the EU.€�

Bingo, it really could come down to something as simple (and devious)
as that.

However, we are where we are and need to accept the result without
further recrimination.

Do we though? If someone tricks you into cleaning and painting your
roof with some false promises then it fails, do you just walk away?

While it is nice to have someone to blame if things go badly further
obstruction is not helpful for any.


Other than we haven't left yet, the final deal still isn't struck and
democracy doesn't just happen on one day.

If the idea that not everyone is happy to accept anything the
government now comes up with re us Leaving, they might just moderate
what they do for fear of being voted out at the next election (or
sooner).

The problem is that partial leaving is the worst of all worlds. Either
staying or fully leaving make sense, but not surrendering the benefits
of staying, without being able to exploit the potential benefits of leaving.

On 05/02/2020 14:05, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 05/02/2020 09:29, Tim Lamb wrote:
Basically, whoever paid for that bus, bought enough votes to influence
the outcome.
Whereas the people who bought ALL the *other* busses saying bollox to
brexit and we love the EU didnt buy enough votes .

Nothing like appealing to people's wallets. And leave were very keen to
imply everyone would be better off after we leave.

Only recently have they admitted that hard times are very likely ahead for
many.

Al of the leavers I know thought from the start that there would be
economic consequences, at least in the short term. But
self-determination has its own value, that is too difficult to put a
monetary value on.

SteveW

On 05/02/2020 14:59, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Tim Lamb
wrote:

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 05/02/2020 09:29, Tim Lamb wrote:
Basically, whoever paid for that bus, bought enough votes to
influenceÂ* the outcome.
Whereas the people who bought ALL the *other* busses saying bollox to
brexit and we love the EU didnt buy enough votes .

No lies there. Plain statements.

Oh dear Tim. ten times more was spent in remain propaganda than leave.

Well I wouldn't say ten, but twice at least (see the published figures
of the Electoral Commission).

Oh? Who paid for that then?

The UK Govt (i.e., us taxpayers) paid for £9M of it.

Yes. Carefully timed so as not to count in the referendum campaign
figures, despite being purely about the referendum!

SteveW

"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
On 05/02/2020 10:48, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 05 Feb 2020 09:25:02 +0000, Tim Streater
wrote:

snip

Says a poor loser, who conveniently forgets the tales of economic
collapse told by losers.

Yes, he carefully overlooks all the Project Fear lies.

Because (and obviously you wouldn't get this on your own because you
are a left brainer), Leave won and only *Leaving* would be a change
from the status quo.

There was no status quo. The EU is constantly changing, taking in more
countries (people voted to be a group of 9 not 28), adding new rules and
laws or changing old ones. Remainers could no more say where the EU would
be in 20 years than leavers could about the UK

Yes.

- except that in another 20 years, if the EU was heading in a direction
that the UK public did not like, our businesses and institutions would be
that much more intertwined that leaving would be nigh on impossible.

Dont buy that given how dramatically multinationals work now.

The difficulties and possible damages that you repeatedly list shows that
the window of opportunity to leave was closing and it was now or never.

Dont buy that either, particularly in say 5 years or so. Not
that I am suggesting that there was any point in waiting,

If you dare someone to jump off a cliff (for no tangible reason, like
the false promise of something) and they don't, there is nothing lost,
it's only if they jump are questions likely to be asked and especially
your part in it.

There is no false promise in self-determination and independence.

I *really* CGAF if we left or stayed, as long as whatever we did was
decided honestly and fairly and was done democratically (a straight
advisory referendum first, then a people vote for starters) and where
liars *aren't* allowed to post lies on the sides of busses on the
grounds it's easier to get forgiveness than permission.

What about remainers - that the economy would collapse immediately after a
leave vote, that jobs would immediately disappear, that wages would fall
straight away.

Do you think for one second they would have been allowed to post the
lies on the side of the bust if they were required to go though some
sort of honesty audit first?

Probably some explanatory small-print would have been required.

Just as would have been required (and far more lines of it) with many of
"Project Fear's" claims.

Also, in your left brainer world, how many Remainers do you actually
think thought the sky would fall in ... but might just be cautious /
concerned that it might not actually do us the good that the Leavers
promised but couldn't justify?

So economic concerns are all that matters and self-determination has no
value?

Yeah, thats obviously silly.

There is nothing dangerous in being a glass half empty person,
especially when there is little tangible proof that the promise of
more water may just be hopes and dreams.

Except that worry about the future may just stop you making that journey
to find more water.

This is the problem with left brainers and cognitive bias, they think
that both sides are equal and that's far from the truth. Leavers and
only leavers were the activists and *have to* 'sell' the facts to
everone else. They didn't, they used tricks and lies.

No. Remaining was also about a process of change - and one where we we
could not make the decisions.

Democracy is something that happens continuously and why I can't
support (and never will) us Leaving the EU under those bogus grounds.

Hardly continuous when people are not given the opportunity to vote on it
for over 40 years!

On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 08:57:16 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH troll****

08:57!!! LOL And you've been up and trolling ALL NIGHT, yet AGAIN! LOL


--
Bill Wright addressing senile Ozzie cretin Rot Speed:
"Well you make up a lot of stuff and it's total ******** most of it."
MID:

On Wed, 05 Feb 2020 13:57:04 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Its classical archetypal remoaner-in-a-bubble swallowing predigested
opinions carefully formed for him by the mainstream media.

You should get out more and meet real people

Can I ask where you go to meet 'real people'?

Round behind Kings Cross, probably.



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 21:36:29 +0000, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 05/02/2020 10:48, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 05 Feb 2020 09:25:02 +0000, Tim Streater
wrote:

snip

Says a poor loser, who conveniently forgets the tales of economic
collapse told by losers.

Yes, he carefully overlooks all the Project Fear lies.

Because (and obviously you wouldn't get this on your own because you
are a left brainer), Leave won and only *Leaving* would be a change
from the status quo.

There was no status quo.

Of course there is, it was how things would have evolved, had we not
changed that path by leaving.

The EU is constantly changing, taking in more
countries (people voted to be a group of 9 not 28), adding new rules and
laws or changing old ones.

No? Really? rolls eyes

Remainers could no more say where the EU
would be in 20 years than leavers could about the UK

Of course they could, they could say we were still in the EU and doing
whatever was appropriate then. What Remainers weren't pretending to be
was clairvoyants.

- except that in
another 20 years, if the EU was heading in a direction that the UK
public did not like, our businesses and institutions would be that much
more intertwined that leaving would be nigh on impossible.

Nope, we could just as easily leave then as now (technically).

The
difficulties and possible damages that you repeatedly list shows that
the window of opportunity to leave was closing and it was now or never.

Nope.

If you dare someone to jump off a cliff (for no tangible reason, like
the false promise of something) and they don't, there is nothing lost,
it's only if they jump are questions likely to be asked and especially
your part in it.

There is no false promise in self-determination and independence.

I'm not even discussing that (opinion). I'm discussing the lies that
were used to win.

And 'of course' the people behind the bus slogan campaign knew it was
BS, but that didn't matter (to them) as long as they got the votes
from it (and they did). Easier to get forgiveness then permission.

I *really* CGAF if we left or stayed, as long as whatever we did was
decided honestly and fairly and was done democratically (a straight
advisory referendum first, then a people vote for starters) and where
liars *aren't* allowed to post lies on the sides of busses on the
grounds it's easier to get forgiveness than permission.

What about remainers - that the economy would collapse immediately after
a leave vote, that jobs would immediately disappear, that wages would
fall straight away.

We haven't left yet ... but no remainer I talked to then or since has
suggested anything like they knew that would happen. Some were
concerned if it might, quite reasonably.

Do you think for one second they would have been allowed to post the
lies on the side of the bust if they were required to go though some
sort of honesty audit first?

Probably some explanatory small-print would have been required.

Quite.

Just as would have been required (and far more lines of it) with many of
"Project Fear's" claims.

Claims like what exactly? How many can you quote and find any actual
evidence for?

Also, in your left brainer world, how many Remainers do you actually
think thought the sky would fall in ... but might just be cautious /
concerned that it might not actually do us the good that the Leavers
promised but couldn't justify?

So economic concerns are all that matters and self-determination has no
value?

Of course self-determination 'matters', but not at *any cost*. It's
all part of a bigger picture that needs to be considered.

There is nothing dangerous in being a glass half empty person,
especially when there is little tangible proof that the promise of
more water may just be hopes and dreams.

Except that worry about the future may just stop you making that journey
to find more water.

But how is walking away from a known well (that is still working for
most) and out into the desert going to help?

This is the problem with left brainers and cognitive bias, they think
that both sides are equal and that's far from the truth. Leavers and
only leavers were the activists and *have to* 'sell' the facts to
everone else. They didn't, they used tricks and lies.

No. Remaining was also about a process of change - and one where we we
could not make the decisions.

To one where we could make no decisions you mean? Like where we are
now and where we will be on any EU discussions in the future.

Whist we may be an island physically, we aren't an island commercially
and there are millions of things / ties / transactions, big and small
that rely on those bonds.

Now, I would be more than happy to break those bonds *IF* someone,
anyone could give me any level of assurance that our change of
direction wasn't just because of racism, a gamble, because of 'Little
Englanders' but so far, over the last 3.5 years, not one person has.
What they have done is demonstrated they are on an anti EU crusade for
reasons they try to explain as if I might consider them reasonable but
it has never been the case.

Democracy is something that happens continuously and why I can't
support (and never will) us Leaving the EU under those bogus grounds.

Hardly continuous when people are not given the opportunity to vote on
it for over 40 years!

Very few people I know *wanted* to vote on us leaving the EU.

Those that I know who did when offered the chance are ignorant as they
have yet to even start to explain anything as they don't have an f'ing
clue about any of it (often contradicting themselves).

Our daughter was talking to one recently.

Him. 'We shouldn't be attracting workers for their own counties as
they need them themselves'
Her. 'Yes, you are right in an ideal world, but they come here because
there is no work in their own counties'
Him. 'Maybe we should give their country some money so they can create
jobs and keep their own workers'.
Her. 'Yes, we could create a group of counties, let's call them a
Union and each county that's doing well at that time could put some
money in a pot to help the ones that aren't?
Him 'Yes, that's sounds ok .... ah ...

And they let these people vote ... but hey, as long as they get
'self-determination' (assuming they hadn't already actually got that
ITRW) they would be happier right ... for all those reasons they never
seem able to come up with ...

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 21:39:21 +0000, Steve Walker
wrote:

snip


If the idea that not everyone is happy to accept anything the
government now comes up with re us Leaving, they might just moderate
what they do for fear of being voted out at the next election (or
sooner).

The problem is that partial leaving is the worst of all worlds.

Is it. So what if that's what we get. Would you still count it as the
sovereign government you wanted doing what they promised or not?

Either
staying or fully leaving make sense, but not surrendering the benefits
of staying, without being able to exploit the potential benefits of leaving.

You voted for it, what are we getting then?

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 21:45:53 +0000, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 05/02/2020 14:05, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
snip

Al of the leavers I know thought from the start that there would be
economic consequences, at least in the short term. But
self-determination has its own value, that is too difficult to put a
monetary value on.

You wait till it happens and see how quickly they (the Leavers who
voted for it) find a way!

Cheers, T i m

On 05/02/2020 17:06, #Paul wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Its classical archetypal remoaner-in-a-bubble swallowing predigested
opinions carefully formed for him by the mainstream media.

You should get out more and meet real people

Can I ask where you go to meet 'real people'?

It doesn't really matter. Even with the best will in the world,
one person trying to sample the views of millions of people by
means of personal meetings has no realist chance of not falling
prey to biases of one kind or another. Even professional opinion
pollsters have to work hard to get good-enough results.

It seems clear enough from discussions here that some people have
experiences that suggest that a majority of real people they meet
think Brexit is a good idea; whilst for others the majority of real
people *they* meet think it is a bad idea.

Mind you, the whole situation can become - at least superficially -
nicely clear cut if you decide that people whose views you dislike
are not "real people", or should be discounted since they have
obviously been misled by propaganda.



I canvassed for UKIP a bit, back in the day. Door to door stuff.

I met several people whose views were frannklky offensive to me..

And not all were of the Harry persuasion either. Plenty of rants by pro
EU people wanting to keep plebs in their place.

But their views are their views. They all had reasons for having them.




#Paul



--
There is nothing a fleet of dispatchable nuclear power plants cannot do
that cannot be done worse and more expensively and with higher carbon
emissions and more adverse environmental impact by adding intermittent
renewable energy.

On 05/02/2020 21:45, Steve Walker wrote:
On 05/02/2020 14:05, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 05/02/2020 09:29, Tim Lamb wrote:
Basically, whoever paid for that bus, bought enough votes to influence
the outcome.
Whereas the people who bought ALL the *other* busses saying bollox to
brexit and we love the EU didnt buy enough votes .

Nothing like appealing to people's wallets. And leave were very keen to
imply everyone would be better off after we leave.

Only recently have they admitted that hard times are very likely ahead
for
many.

Al of the leavers I know thought from the start that there would be
economic consequences, at least in the short term. But
self-determination has its own value, that is too difficult to put a
monetary value on.

SteveW

Would you rather by rich lonely and sucidal, or sharing a bottle with
some mates under the arches?

Marx was a materialist. His version of the greatest good for the
greatest number means as much material wealth to as many as possible.

frankly, It sucks.

Because it comes with price tag that has raised the teenage suicide
rate and the murder rate to unacceptable proportions


--
There is nothing a fleet of dispatchable nuclear power plants cannot do
that cannot be done worse and more expensively and with higher carbon
emissions and more adverse environmental impact by adding intermittent
renewable energy.

In article ,
Steve Walker wrote:
There was no status quo. The EU is constantly changing, taking in more
countries (people voted to be a group of 9 not 28), adding new rules and
laws or changing old ones. Remainers could no more say where the EU
would be in 20 years than leavers could about the UK - except that in
another 20 years, if the EU was heading in a direction that the UK
public did not like, our businesses and institutions would be that much
more intertwined that leaving would be nigh on impossible.

And it's been such and easy journey so far. ;-)

Rather different from how the leave campaign said it would be.

--
*Therapy is expensive, poppin' bubble wrap is cheap! You choose.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Steve Walker wrote:
The problem is that partial leaving is the worst of all worlds. Either
staying or fully leaving make sense, but not surrendering the benefits
of staying, without being able to exploit the potential benefits of
leaving.

You seem to think we can make all the rules. And as a small country, we
have nothing like the clout of the US, China, EU etc.
Something we will have to accept if going it alone.

We are nothing like self sufficient in food and energy etc, let alone
manufactured goods. So have to rely heavily on imports. And to pay for
those we need to export both goods and services.

As with everthing, all will be happy to sell us anything. But a buyer has
the choice of who they give the business to.

It's sad so many have to be reminded of the basics.

--
*I don't believe in astrology. I am a Sagittarius and we're very skeptical.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Steve Walker wrote:
Al of the leavers I know thought from the start that there would be
economic consequences, at least in the short term.

That assumes there aren't those who were convinced by the 'facts' given in
the popular press and by the leave campaign on the run up to the
referendum. It didn't need many to believe those lies to swing the vote to
leave.

--
*Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I canvassed for UKIP a bit, back in the day. Door to door stuff.

I met several people whose views were frannklky offensive to me..

And not all were of the Harry persuasion either.

I went to one UKIP meeting out of curiosity. It was full of people just
like harry.

--
*What am I? Flypaper for freaks!?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Marx was a materialist. His version of the greatest good for the
greatest number means as much material wealth to as many as possible.

frankly, It sucks.

Rather obviously you would prefer material wealth confined to the fewest
possible. As long as you are one.

--
*Two wrongs are only the beginning *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wednesday, 5 February 2020 23:36:35 UTC, Bob Eager wrote:
On Wed, 05 Feb 2020 13:57:04 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Its classical archetypal remoaner-in-a-bubble swallowing predigested
opinions carefully formed for him by the mainstream media.

You should get out more and meet real people

Can I ask where you go to meet 'real people'?

Round behind Kings Cross, probably.

Not since the late 90s now you use facebook and whatsapp etc ;-)

Steve Walker wrote:

On 05/02/2020 14:05, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 05/02/2020 09:29, Tim Lamb wrote:
Basically, whoever paid for that bus, bought enough votes to influence
the outcome.
Whereas the people who bought ALL the *other* busses saying bollox to
brexit and we love the EU didnt buy enough votes .

Nothing like appealing to people's wallets. And leave were very keen to
imply everyone would be better off after we leave.

Only recently have they admitted that hard times are very likely ahead for
many.

Al of the leavers I know thought from the start that there would be
economic consequences, at least in the short term. But
self-determination has its own value, that is too difficult to put a
monetary value on.

SteveW

Paradoxically, we may well have had more opportunity for
self-determination as part of the EU bloc (see French foreign policy for
instance) than as a small independent country heavily dominated by
American politics and culture.



--

Roger Hayter

In message ,
whisky-dave writes
On Wednesday, 5 February 2020 23:36:35 UTC, Bob Eager wrote:
On Wed, 05 Feb 2020 13:57:04 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Its classical archetypal remoaner-in-a-bubble swallowing predigested
opinions carefully formed for him by the mainstream media.

You should get out more and meet real people

Can I ask where you go to meet 'real people'?

Round behind Kings Cross, probably.

Not since the late 90s now you use facebook and whatsapp etc ;-)

Close! I think you will find Google's new office blocks just about
there!


--
Tim Lamb

On Thu, 06 Feb 2020 05:10:41 -0800, whisky-dave wrote:

On Wednesday, 5 February 2020 23:36:35 UTC, Bob Eager wrote:
On Wed, 05 Feb 2020 13:57:04 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Its classical archetypal remoaner-in-a-bubble swallowing
predigested opinions carefully formed for him by the mainstream
media.

You should get out more and meet real people

Can I ask where you go to meet 'real people'?

Round behind Kings Cross, probably.

Not since the late 90s now you use facebook and whatsapp etc ;-)

Well, you would know.



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 06/02/2020 14:09, Roger Hayter wrote:
than as a small independent country heavily dominated by
American politics and culture.


Except we are a large independent country not dominated by American
politics and culture, now.



--
"I guess a rattlesnake ain't risponsible fer bein' a rattlesnake, but ah
puts mah heel on um jess the same if'n I catches him around mah chillun".

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 06/02/2020 14:09, Roger Hayter wrote:
than as a small independent country heavily dominated by
American politics and culture.


Except we are a large independent country not dominated by American
politics and culture, now.

Yup. Britannia rules the waves - once more. And of course we won the war
so are entitled to be given special consideration for that.

In your dreams.

--
*The fact that no one understands you doesn't mean you're an artist

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.