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Default UNBELIEVABLE: It's 02:39 am in Australia and the Senile Ozzietard is out of Bed and TROLLING, already!!!! LOL

On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 02:39:40 +1100, Ray, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH senile asshole's troll****

02:39??? AGAIN??? LOL Just what the **** is wrong with you, you lonely
sleepless senile pest?

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Default UNBELIEVABLE: It's 03:18 am in Australia and the Senile Ozzietard is out of Bed and TROLLING, already!!!! LOL

On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 03:18:24 +1100, Ray, better known as cantankerous
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FLUSH senile asshole's troll****

03:18??? LOL Seriously, do you REALLY know NO shame AT ALL, sociopath?

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Default Hydrogen engines

On 19/01/2020 13:28, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/01/2020 13:17, Pancho wrote:



The actual answer as with most of this ecobollox, is that if it were
that simple or cheap everyone would be doing it.


The discussion is about aiming for low carbon emissions in energy
production. At the moment what people are doing is burning hydro carbons.

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On 19/01/2020 13:37, Chris Hogg wrote:

But how and where are they going to store a month's worth of hydrogen?
The volume would be absolutely huge, even if compressed. The phrase
'greens don't do sums' is occasionally trotted out on this NG. That
looks like a classic example of just that.


I'm pretty sure I already gave a link once in this thread.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_storage

"The storage capacity of the German natural gas network is more than
200,000 GW·h which is enough for several months of energy requirement."

Plus we could use depleted gas wells.

Greens might not do sums but you appear to be unable to use wiki.

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On 19/01/2020 14:50, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/01/2020 13:37, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 13:17:14 +0000, Pancho
wrote:

On 19/01/2020 12:53, Chris Hogg wrote:

Lots of 'potential' storage solutions, such as compressed air into
underground caverns, trundling very heavy weights on rail tracks up
mountains, Tesla-type batteries everywhere and so on. But none of it
comes near to pumped storage in terms of capacity, and that's very
dependent on the right topography, most of which has already been
used. Those other solutions may be OK for very short term
peak-lopping, but none are capable of storing the amounts of energy
needed to run the country for a several days at this time of year,

OK, I was seeing quotes of hydrogen storage providing* months energy
supply as opposed to a few hours for pumped storage. The main difference
being hydrogen is 40% efficient where as pumped is 80% efficient.


But how and where are they going to store a month's worth of hydrogen?
The volume would be absolutely huge, even if compressed. The phrase
'greens don't do sums' is occasionally trotted out on this NG. That
looks like a classic example of just that.

To power the UK for a day, just on electricity, in winter, takes about
24 hours at an average of 35Gw

= 840GWh

In terms of nuclear warheads, that is 722 kilotons. 50 Hiroshimas.


Would you rather live:

(a) near a nuclear power station that cannot explode, only melt down
inside a safe containment vessel?
(b) near a megaton explosion capable hydrogen store?

Note: a megaton explosion takes out* about 100 sq km absolutely.

Remind me, how many gas wells have exploded with megaton explosions.

How exactly would these explosions occur? AIUI hydrogen's dispersal rate
in air is very fast. It is quite hard to get an explosive mix.



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Default Hydrogen engines

On 19/01/2020 14:16, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Pancho wrote:
On 17/01/2020 14:29, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Pancho wrote:
Hydrogen can also be used as a replacement for domestic gas heating. So
if we can economically provide enough wind power overcapacity, the two
technologies would be well suited.

Make far more sense to use electricity produced by wind power to heat our
houses directly. I'd guess upgrading the grid rather cheaper than
installing a high pressure pipe network.

The point was hydrogen generation can be used as a battery.


It could, but how do you get it to the house?

erm?? Gas pipes!.
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On 19/01/2020 14:42, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 13:37:34 +0000, Chris Hogg wrote:

On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 13:17:14 +0000, Pancho
wrote:

On 19/01/2020 12:53, Chris Hogg wrote:

Lots of 'potential' storage solutions, such as compressed air into
underground caverns, trundling very heavy weights on rail tracks up
mountains, Tesla-type batteries everywhere and so on. But none of it
comes near to pumped storage in terms of capacity, and that's very
dependent on the right topography, most of which has already been
used. Those other solutions may be OK for very short term
peak-lopping, but none are capable of storing the amounts of energy
needed to run the country for a several days at this time of year,

OK, I was seeing quotes of hydrogen storage providing months energy
supply as opposed to a few hours for pumped storage. The main difference
being hydrogen is 40% efficient where as pumped is 80% efficient.


But how and where are they going to store a month's worth of hydrogen?
The volume would be absolutely huge, even if compressed. The phrase
'greens don't do sums' is occasionally trotted out on this NG. That
looks like a classic example of just that.


AND:

Where is the capacity coming from? Unreliables, supported by nuclear?
Bear in mind that whatever unreliable is being used as the primary
generator, when the 'battery' (in whatever form that might be) gets
substantially discharged, not only will the primary generators have to
supply the ongoing day-to-day demand, they will also have to recharge
that 'battery' PDQ, in anticipation of another generation-free period
in a week or so's time. How much extra generating capacity that might
need, I don't know, but substantial, I would think.
That problem doesn't arise with nuclear.


A large battery gives plenty of time for a battery to recharge, two
months is a big battery.

Actually the problem does occur with nuclear, too. You need rapid
dispatch to counter the variability of demand.


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On 19/01/2020 20:10, Pancho wrote:
On 19/01/2020 13:28, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/01/2020 13:17, Pancho wrote:



The actual answer as with most of this ecobollox, is that if it were
that simple or cheap everyone would be doing it.


The discussion is about aiming for low carbon emissions in energy
production. At the moment what people are doing is burning hydro carbons.

Indeed. And renewable energy is there to make sure we continue to do so.

Since it patently doesn't reduce carbon emissions


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On 19/01/2020 20:13, Pancho wrote:
On 19/01/2020 14:50, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/01/2020 13:37, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 13:17:14 +0000, Pancho
wrote:

On 19/01/2020 12:53, Chris Hogg wrote:

Lots of 'potential' storage solutions, such as compressed air into
underground caverns, trundling very heavy weights on rail tracks up
mountains, Tesla-type batteries everywhere and so on. But none of it
comes near to pumped storage in terms of capacity, and that's very
dependent on the right topography, most of which has already been
used. Those other solutions may be OK for very short term
peak-lopping, but none are capable of storing the amounts of energy
needed to run the country for a several days at this time of year,

OK, I was seeing quotes of hydrogen storage providing* months energy
supply as opposed to a few hours for pumped storage. The main
difference
being hydrogen is 40% efficient where as pumped is 80% efficient.


But how and where are they going to store a month's worth of hydrogen?
The volume would be absolutely huge, even if compressed. The phrase
'greens don't do sums' is occasionally trotted out on this NG. That
looks like a classic example of just that.

To power the UK for a day, just on electricity, in winter, takes about
24 hours at an average of 35Gw

= 840GWh

In terms of nuclear warheads, that is 722 kilotons. 50 Hiroshimas.


Would you rather live:

(a) near a nuclear power station that cannot explode, only melt down
inside a safe containment vessel?
(b) near a megaton explosion capable hydrogen store?

Note: a megaton explosion takes out* about 100 sq km absolutely.

Remind me, how many gas wells have exploded with megaton explosions.


Wells only a few. Storage facilities for gas...one or two with
devastating results


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_explosion

Note that nearly all of these killed more people than chernobyl and ALL
of them killed more people than Fukushimas recator did.


How exactly would these explosions occur? AIUI hydrogen's dispersal rate
in air is very fast. It is quite hard to get an explosive mix.

Don't be silly

It there is a fire and it breaches the walls of the containment, forget
chernobyl, its goodnight Vienna.


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On 19/01/2020 20:13, Pancho wrote:
On 19/01/2020 14:16, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
*** Pancho wrote:
On 17/01/2020 14:29, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
**** Pancho wrote:
Hydrogen can also be used as a replacement for domestic gas
heating. So
if we can economically provide enough wind power overcapacity, the two
technologies would be well suited.

Make far more sense to use electricity produced by wind power to
heat our
houses directly. I'd guess upgrading the grid rather cheaper than
installing a high pressure pipe network.

The point was hydrogen generation can be used as a battery.


It could, but how do you get it to the house?

erm?? Gas pipes!.


would leak hydrogen. Its the smallest molecule there is.


--
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hypothesis!

Mary Wollstonecraft


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On 19/01/2020 20:17, Pancho wrote:
On 19/01/2020 14:42, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 13:37:34 +0000, Chris Hogg wrote:

On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 13:17:14 +0000, Pancho
wrote:

On 19/01/2020 12:53, Chris Hogg wrote:

Lots of 'potential' storage solutions, such as compressed air into
underground caverns, trundling very heavy weights on rail tracks up
mountains, Tesla-type batteries everywhere and so on. But none of it
comes near to pumped storage in terms of capacity, and that's very
dependent on the right topography, most of which has already been
used. Those other solutions may be OK for very short term
peak-lopping, but none are capable of storing the amounts of energy
needed to run the country for a several days at this time of year,

OK, I was seeing quotes of hydrogen storage providing* months energy
supply as opposed to a few hours for pumped storage. The main
difference
being hydrogen is 40% efficient where as pumped is 80% efficient.


But how and where are they going to store a month's worth of hydrogen?
The volume would be absolutely huge, even if compressed. The phrase
'greens don't do sums' is occasionally trotted out on this NG. That
looks like a classic example of just that.


AND:

Where is the capacity coming from? Unreliables, supported by nuclear?
Bear in mind that whatever unreliable is being used as the primary
generator, when the 'battery' (in whatever form that might be) gets
substantially discharged, not only will the primary generators have to
supply the ongoing day-to-day demand, they will also have to recharge
that 'battery' PDQ, in anticipation of another generation-free period
in a week or so's time. How much extra generating capacity that might
need, I don't know, but substantial, I would think.
* That problem doesn't arise with nuclear.

A large battery gives plenty of time for a battery to recharge, two
months is a big battery.

Actually the problem does occur with nuclear, too. You need rapid
dispatch to counter the variability of demand.


Nuclear is as capable of rapid dispatch as coal was and coal ran the
entire grid once.

You can store a lot of energy in a big steam boiler

And in the UK we have enough hydro to cover the intermediate dispatch
requirements.



--
But what a weak barrier is truth when it stands in the way of an
hypothesis!

Mary Wollstonecraft
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On 19/01/2020 20:13, Pancho wrote:
On 19/01/2020 14:50, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/01/2020 13:37, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 13:17:14 +0000, Pancho
wrote:

On 19/01/2020 12:53, Chris Hogg wrote:

Lots of 'potential' storage solutions, such as compressed air into
underground caverns, trundling very heavy weights on rail tracks up
mountains, Tesla-type batteries everywhere and so on. But none of it
comes near to pumped storage in terms of capacity, and that's very
dependent on the right topography, most of which has already been
used. Those other solutions may be OK for very short term
peak-lopping, but none are capable of storing the amounts of energy
needed to run the country for a several days at this time of year,

OK, I was seeing quotes of hydrogen storage providing* months energy
supply as opposed to a few hours for pumped storage. The main
difference
being hydrogen is 40% efficient where as pumped is 80% efficient.


But how and where are they going to store a month's worth of hydrogen?
The volume would be absolutely huge, even if compressed. The phrase
'greens don't do sums' is occasionally trotted out on this NG. That
looks like a classic example of just that.

To power the UK for a day, just on electricity, in winter, takes about
24 hours at an average of 35Gw

= 840GWh

In terms of nuclear warheads, that is 722 kilotons. 50 Hiroshimas.


Would you rather live:

(a) near a nuclear power station that cannot explode, only melt down
inside a safe containment vessel?
(b) near a megaton explosion capable hydrogen store?

Note: a megaton explosion takes out* about 100 sq km absolutely.

Remind me, how many gas wells have exploded with megaton explosions.

How exactly would these explosions occur? AIUI hydrogen's dispersal rate
in air is very fast. It is quite hard to get an explosive mix.


Golly. I guess you cannot do WIKI

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_safety

"Hydrogen possesses the NFPA 704's highest rating of 4 on the
flammability scale because it is flammable when mixed even in small
amounts with ordinary air; ignition can occur at a volumetric ratio of
hydrogen to air as low as 4% due to the oxygen in the air and the
simplicity and chemical properties of the reaction. ... The storage and
use of hydrogen poses unique challenges due to its ease of leaking as a
gaseous fuel, low-energy ignition, wide range of combustible fuel-air
mixtures, buoyancy, and its ability to embrittle metals that must be
accounted for to ensure safe operation. Liquid hydrogen poses additional
challenges due to its increased density and the extremely low
temperatures needed to keep it in liquid form. "

"Hydrogen-air mixtures can ignite with very low energy input, 1/10
that required igniting a gasoline-air mixture. For reference, an
invisible spark or a static spark from a person can cause ignition."
"Although the autoignition temperature of hydrogen is higher than
those for most hydrocarbons, hydrogen's lower ignition energy makes the
ignition of hydrogenair mixtures more likely. The minimum energy for
spark ignition at atmospheric pressure is about 0.02 millijoules."

"The flammability limits based on the volume percent of hydrogen in
air at 14.7 psia (1 atm, 101 kPa) are 4.0 and 75.0. The flammability
limits based on the volume percent of hydrogen in oxygen at 14.7 psia (1
atm, 101 kPa) are 4.0 and 94.0."
"The limits of detonability of hydrogen in air are 18.3 to 59
percent by volume"[6]
"Flames in and around a collection of pipes or structures can
create turbulence that causes a deflagration to evolve into a
detonation, even in the absence of gross confinement."

(For comparison: Deflagration limit of gasoline in air: 1.47.6%; of
acetylene in air,[7] 2.5% to 82%) "


--
A leader is best When people barely know he exists. Of a good leader,
who talks little,When his work is done, his aim fulfilled,They will say,
We did this ourselves.

Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching
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On 20/01/2020 08:16, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 20:17:29 +0000, Pancho
wrote:

On 19/01/2020 14:42, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 13:37:34 +0000, Chris Hogg wrote:

On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 13:17:14 +0000, Pancho
wrote:

On 19/01/2020 12:53, Chris Hogg wrote:

Lots of 'potential' storage solutions, such as compressed air into
underground caverns, trundling very heavy weights on rail tracks up
mountains, Tesla-type batteries everywhere and so on. But none of it
comes near to pumped storage in terms of capacity, and that's very
dependent on the right topography, most of which has already been
used. Those other solutions may be OK for very short term
peak-lopping, but none are capable of storing the amounts of energy
needed to run the country for a several days at this time of year,

OK, I was seeing quotes of hydrogen storage providing months energy
supply as opposed to a few hours for pumped storage. The main difference
being hydrogen is 40% efficient where as pumped is 80% efficient.


But how and where are they going to store a month's worth of hydrogen?
The volume would be absolutely huge, even if compressed. The phrase
'greens don't do sums' is occasionally trotted out on this NG. That
looks like a classic example of just that.

AND:

Where is the capacity coming from? Unreliables, supported by nuclear?
Bear in mind that whatever unreliable is being used as the primary
generator, when the 'battery' (in whatever form that might be) gets
substantially discharged, not only will the primary generators have to
supply the ongoing day-to-day demand, they will also have to recharge
that 'battery' PDQ, in anticipation of another generation-free period
in a week or so's time. How much extra generating capacity that might
need, I don't know, but substantial, I would think.
That problem doesn't arise with nuclear.

A large battery gives plenty of time for a battery to recharge, two
months is a big battery.


I don't understand what you're saying there. A large 'battery', of
whatever type, would take a long time to recharge from flat, when
speed would be of the essence in time for the next lull in the weather
with no generation from unreliables.

Actually the problem does occur with nuclear, too. You need rapid
dispatch to counter the variability of demand.

But nuclear is dispatchable; not ideal (they're best run flat-out
AIUI), but it's not difficult.

UK nukes were designed to do baseload. They were never designed to be
dispatchable. PWR is a different matter.

"For many years, load-following requirements have been specified in
standard terms of reference. For example, most PWR plants are capable to
follow loads in a power range of 30-100% at rates from 1 to 3% per
minute. Exceptional rates of 5% per minute or even 10% per
minute are possible over limited ranges"

( http://www.templar.co.uk/downloads/0...et_Nuttall.pdf )

The problem is xenon poisoning of the reactor elements if reduced rate
recations are sustained. The French get around this by modulating
reactors with fresh fuel rods: once they are getting on, they use them
for baseload.

Faster rates of change are available with other recator types

Certainly an all nuclear grid would be able to cope with diurnal shifts,
and by moving maintenance and refuelling into the summer when demand is
lower, as long as the ~3GW of hydro/pumped power were there to cope with
unplanned outages.

I would imagine some gas would be retained for STOR purposes too.


You wouldn't build a nuclear power station just to cover 6 extremely
cold winter days..


--
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as
foolish, and by the rulers as useful.

(Seneca the Younger, 65 AD)

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On 20/01/2020 08:26, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 20:10:48 +0000, Pancho
wrote:

On 19/01/2020 13:37, Chris Hogg wrote:

But how and where are they going to store a month's worth of hydrogen?
The volume would be absolutely huge, even if compressed. The phrase
'greens don't do sums' is occasionally trotted out on this NG. That
looks like a classic example of just that.


I'm pretty sure I already gave a link once in this thread.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_storage

"The storage capacity of the German natural gas network is more than
200,000 GW·h which is enough for several months of energy requirement."


No you didn't give that link, at least, not that I could find. But in
that link is a reference to this study of the use of natural gas
distribution systems for hydrogen transmission that is interesting
http://tinyurl.com/vy8gz4w

Plus we could use depleted gas wells.


Such as Rough http://tinyurl.com/t37zrz8 "It had a storage capacity of
3.31 billion cubic metres which was approximately 70% of the UK's gas
storage capacity (approximately nine days' supply). Rough could supply
10% of the UK's peak gas demand and thus was an important part of the
UK's gas infrastructure."

Of course, all these figures, whether for Germany or the UK, are for
supply of natural gas at current take-off rates. Those rates would be
a lot higher and their duration of supply correspondingly much shorter
for a hydrogen economy, which would use hydrogen to replace all fossil
fuels. But I take the point.

Greens might not do sums but you appear to be unable to use wiki.


chuckle

As I pointed out, the one who is unable to use Wiki is Pancho.
Hydrogen is unbelievably dangerous. I'd rather have Chernobyl at the
bottom of my garden than a hydrogen store.

About 1000 more peole have died from gas explosions than from nuclear
radiation.

When it comes to energy stores the most stable and least dangerous form
is uranium and thorium, followed by coal.

Liquid hydrocarbons are nasty. Gas is nasty. So are batteries. The worst
of the lot is hydrogen.


--
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true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp
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Chris Hogg wrote:

Pancho wrote:

Plus we could use depleted gas wells.


Such as Rough


Someone was building gas storage in salt domes in (?)cheshire


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Andy Burns wrote:

Someone was building gas storage in salt domes in (?)cheshire


https://www.storengy.co.uk/our-products-and-services/storage-products/auctions-2020
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In article ,
Ray wrote:
But has found that magic money tree may said didn't exist?


Dont need a magic money tree, just stop sending
billions a year to the EU.


Have you looked at the net costs of us leaving the EU so far? Makes our
net EU contribution look like a drop in the ocean...

--
*Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
About 1000 more peole have died from gas explosions than from nuclear
radiation.


Given gas has been around rather longer than nuclear power, hardly a
surprise?

--
*Income tax service - Weve got what it takes to take what you've got.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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On 20/01/2020 08:16, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 20:17:29 +0000, Pancho
wrote:

On 19/01/2020 14:42, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 13:37:34 +0000, Chris Hogg wrote:

On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 13:17:14 +0000, Pancho
wrote:

On 19/01/2020 12:53, Chris Hogg wrote:

Lots of 'potential' storage solutions, such as compressed air into
underground caverns, trundling very heavy weights on rail tracks up
mountains, Tesla-type batteries everywhere and so on. But none of it
comes near to pumped storage in terms of capacity, and that's very
dependent on the right topography, most of which has already been
used. Those other solutions may be OK for very short term
peak-lopping, but none are capable of storing the amounts of energy
needed to run the country for a several days at this time of year,

OK, I was seeing quotes of hydrogen storage providing months energy
supply as opposed to a few hours for pumped storage. The main difference
being hydrogen is 40% efficient where as pumped is 80% efficient.


But how and where are they going to store a month's worth of hydrogen?
The volume would be absolutely huge, even if compressed. The phrase
'greens don't do sums' is occasionally trotted out on this NG. That
looks like a classic example of just that.

AND:

Where is the capacity coming from? Unreliables, supported by nuclear?
Bear in mind that whatever unreliable is being used as the primary
generator, when the 'battery' (in whatever form that might be) gets
substantially discharged, not only will the primary generators have to
supply the ongoing day-to-day demand, they will also have to recharge
that 'battery' PDQ, in anticipation of another generation-free period
in a week or so's time. How much extra generating capacity that might
need, I don't know, but substantial, I would think.
That problem doesn't arise with nuclear.

A large battery gives plenty of time for a battery to recharge, two
months is a big battery.


I don't understand what you're saying there. A large 'battery', of
whatever type, would take a long time to recharge from flat, when
speed would be of the essence in time for the next lull in the weather
with no generation from unreliables.


The idea of a battery is to smooth out variance. To allow for supply to
match demand. With a big enough battery we just need average energy
production to match average energy demand. Without a big enough battery
we need overcapacity. Hasn't this point been made many times?


Actually the problem does occur with nuclear, too. You need rapid
dispatch to counter the variability of demand.

But nuclear is dispatchable; not ideal (they're best run flat-out
AIUI), but it's not difficult.

Yes, but is it optimal? You would need enough nuclear capacity to match
maximum demand, also turning it down can cause difficulty.

At some point it might be cheaper to have fewer nuclear power stations
generating full all the time. When they have spare capacity they
generate hydrogen, in periods of high demand they use the hydrogen to
fuel rapid dispatch generators.
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On 20/01/2020 04:32, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Nuclear is as capable of rapid dispatch as coal was and coal ran the
entire grid once.

You can store a lot of energy in a big steam boiler

And in the UK we have enough hydro to cover the intermediate dispatch
requirements.




We were discussing high capacity , do keep up.


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On 20/01/2020 04:30, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/01/2020 20:13, Pancho wrote:
On 19/01/2020 14:50, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/01/2020 13:37, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 13:17:14 +0000, Pancho
wrote:

On 19/01/2020 12:53, Chris Hogg wrote:

Lots of 'potential' storage solutions, such as compressed air into
underground caverns, trundling very heavy weights on rail tracks up
mountains, Tesla-type batteries everywhere and so on. But none of it
comes near to pumped storage in terms of capacity, and that's very
dependent on the right topography, most of which has already been
used. Those other solutions may be OK for very short term
peak-lopping, but none are capable of storing the amounts of energy
needed to run the country for a several days at this time of year,

OK, I was seeing quotes of hydrogen storage providing* months energy
supply as opposed to a few hours for pumped storage. The main
difference
being hydrogen is 40% efficient where as pumped is 80% efficient.


But how and where are they going to store a month's worth of hydrogen?
The volume would be absolutely huge, even if compressed. The phrase
'greens don't do sums' is occasionally trotted out on this NG. That
looks like a classic example of just that.

To power the UK for a day, just on electricity, in winter, takes
about 24 hours at an average of 35Gw

= 840GWh

In terms of nuclear warheads, that is 722 kilotons. 50 Hiroshimas.


Would you rather live:

(a) near a nuclear power station that cannot explode, only melt down
inside a safe containment vessel?
(b) near a megaton explosion capable hydrogen store?

Note: a megaton explosion takes out* about 100 sq km absolutely.

Remind me, how many gas wells have exploded with megaton explosions.


Wells only a few. Storage facilities for gas...one or two with
devastating results

No megaton explosions, then. Gosh, I am surprised.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_explosion

Note that nearly all of these killed more people than chernobyl and ALL
of them killed more people than Fukushimas recator did.



"Note: a megaton explosion takes out about 100 sq km absolutely."

The idea is to support what you actually claimed not start an irrelevant
tangent.

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On 20/01/2020 11:02, Pancho wrote:
On 20/01/2020 08:16, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 20:17:29 +0000, Pancho
wrote:

On 19/01/2020 14:42, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 13:37:34 +0000, Chris Hogg wrote:

On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 13:17:14 +0000, Pancho
wrote:

On 19/01/2020 12:53, Chris Hogg wrote:

Lots of 'potential' storage solutions, such as compressed air into
underground caverns, trundling very heavy weights on rail tracks up
mountains, Tesla-type batteries everywhere and so on. But none of it
comes near to pumped storage in terms of capacity, and that's very
dependent on the right topography, most of which has already been
used. Those other solutions may be OK for very short term
peak-lopping, but none are capable of storing the amounts of energy
needed to run the country for a several days at this time of year,

OK, I was seeing quotes of hydrogen storage providing* months energy
supply as opposed to a few hours for pumped storage. The main
difference
being hydrogen is 40% efficient where as pumped is 80% efficient.


But how and where are they going to store a month's worth of hydrogen?
The volume would be absolutely huge, even if compressed. The phrase
'greens don't do sums' is occasionally trotted out on this NG. That
looks like a classic example of just that.

AND:

Where is the capacity coming from? Unreliables, supported by nuclear?
Bear in mind that whatever unreliable is being used as the primary
generator, when the 'battery' (in whatever form that might be) gets
substantially discharged, not only will the primary generators have to
supply the ongoing day-to-day demand, they will also have to recharge
that 'battery' PDQ, in anticipation of another generation-free period
in a week or so's time. How much extra generating capacity that might
need, I don't know, but substantial, I would think.
* That problem doesn't arise with nuclear.

A large battery gives plenty of time for a battery to recharge, two
months is a big battery.


I don't understand what you're saying there. A large 'battery', of
whatever type, would take a long time to recharge from flat, when
speed would be of the essence in time for the next lull in the weather
with no generation from unreliables.


The idea of a battery is to smooth out variance. To allow for supply to
match demand. With a big enough battery we just need average energy
production to match average energy demand. Without a big enough battery
we need overcapacity. Hasn't this point been made many times?


Actually the problem does occur with nuclear, too. You need rapid
dispatch to counter the variability of demand.

But nuclear is dispatchable; not ideal (they're best run flat-out
AIUI), but it's not difficult.

Yes, but is it optimal? You would need enough nuclear capacity to match
maximum demand, also turning it down can cause difficulty.

At some point it might be cheaper to have fewer nuclear power stations
generating full all the time. When they have spare capacity they
generate hydrogen, in periods of high demand they use the hydrogen to
fuel rapid dispatch generators.


No point. Cheaper to add a little more pumped storage
Or gas.

--
"A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight
and understanding".

Marshall McLuhan

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On 20/01/2020 11:04, Pancho wrote:
On 20/01/2020 04:32, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Nuclear is as capable of rapid dispatch as coal was and coal ran the
entire grid once.

You can store a lot of energy in a big steam boiler

And in the UK we have enough hydro to cover the intermediate dispatch
requirements.




We were discussing high capacity , do keep up.


You really dont understand the subject do you?

Very short term dispatch is catered for by the rotating masses of the
turbines: That covers a powerstation tripping

Minute level dispatch is catered for by hydro and steam in boilers.
hpor level dispatch is catered for by turning the nukes up and down. Or
having some gas.
Renewables contribute zero to all of this and batteries and hydroigen
are an expensive inegffficent (and dangerous) substitute for pumped storage



--
"A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight
and understanding".

Marshall McLuhan

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On 20/01/2020 04:30, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/01/2020 20:13, Pancho wrote:
On 19/01/2020 14:16, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
*** Pancho wrote:
On 17/01/2020 14:29, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
**** Pancho wrote:
Hydrogen can also be used as a replacement for domestic gas
heating. So
if we can economically provide enough wind power overcapacity, the
two
technologies would be well suited.

Make far more sense to use electricity produced by wind power to
heat our
houses directly. I'd guess upgrading the grid rather cheaper than
installing a high pressure pipe network.

The point was hydrogen generation can be used as a battery.

It could, but how do you get it to the house?

erm?? Gas pipes!.


would leak hydrogen. Its the smallest molecule there is.


And yet coal gas contained a significant hydrogen proportion. You
remember coal gas, don't you. You know, the gas that we used until the
1970s. You know the 70s, Grocer Heath, Seasons in the sun, Two tone
tonic strides.

https://www.theiet.org/impact-society/sectors/energy/energy-news/transitioning-to-hydrogen-assessing-the-engineering-risks-and-uncertainties/

Quote:
"Hydrogen allows much of our existing gas infrastructure to be used
Most of the local iron mains gas network will have been replaced with
polyethylene pipe by 2030, which can be used with hydrogen. This means
most of the necessary street works would have already been done.


Note. This is all new to me but governments appear to have been planning
for it.

There are problems such as increased tendency to leakage and corrosion,
but pumping hydrogen though pipes isn't entirely new.
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On 20/01/2020 04:30, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Would you rather live:

(a) near a nuclear power station that cannot explode, only melt down
inside a safe containment vessel?
(b) near a megaton explosion capable hydrogen store?

Note: a megaton explosion takes out* about 100 sq km absolutely.

Remind me, how many gas wells have exploded with megaton explosions.


Wells only a few. Storage facilities for gas...one or two with
devastating results

No megaton explosions?



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On 20/01/2020 11:09, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/01/2020 11:04, Pancho wrote:
On 20/01/2020 04:32, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Nuclear is as capable of rapid dispatch as coal was and coal ran the
entire grid once.

You can store a lot of energy in a big steam boiler

And in the UK we have enough hydro to cover the intermediate dispatch
requirements.




We were discussing high capacity , do keep up.


You really dont understand the subject do you?

Very short term dispatch is catered for by the rotating masses of the
turbines: That covers a powerstation tripping

Minute level dispatch is catered for by hydro and steam in boilers.
hpor level dispatch is catered for by turning the nukes up and down. Or
having some gas.
Renewables contribute zero to all of this and batteries and hydroigen
are an expensive inegffficent (and dangerous) substitute for pumped storage


Pumped storage only lasts for hours, this is not enough to cover
extended periods of excess demand. Hydrogen offers the potential to
provide months of storage.

Hydrogen is expensive but if you have over capacity you might as well do
something with it. We do not have enough mountains to pump water up.

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On 20/01/2020 11:05, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/01/2020 11:02, Pancho wrote:
On 20/01/2020 08:16, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 20:17:29 +0000, Pancho
wrote:

On 19/01/2020 14:42, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 13:37:34 +0000, Chris Hogg wrote:

On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 13:17:14 +0000, Pancho
wrote:

On 19/01/2020 12:53, Chris Hogg wrote:

Lots of 'potential' storage solutions, such as compressed air into
underground caverns, trundling very heavy weights on rail tracks up
mountains, Tesla-type batteries everywhere and so on. But none
of it
comes near to pumped storage in terms of capacity, and that's very
dependent on the right topography, most of which has already been
used. Those other solutions may be OK for very short term
peak-lopping, but none are capable of storing the amounts of energy
needed to run the country for a several days at this time of year,

OK, I was seeing quotes of hydrogen storage providing* months energy
supply as opposed to a few hours for pumped storage. The main
difference
being hydrogen is 40% efficient where as pumped is 80% efficient.


But how and where are they going to store a month's worth of
hydrogen?
The volume would be absolutely huge, even if compressed. The phrase
'greens don't do sums' is occasionally trotted out on this NG. That
looks like a classic example of just that.

AND:

Where is the capacity coming from? Unreliables, supported by nuclear?
Bear in mind that whatever unreliable is being used as the primary
generator, when the 'battery' (in whatever form that might be) gets
substantially discharged, not only will the primary generators have to
supply the ongoing day-to-day demand, they will also have to recharge
that 'battery' PDQ, in anticipation of another generation-free period
in a week or so's time. How much extra generating capacity that might
need, I don't know, but substantial, I would think.
* That problem doesn't arise with nuclear.

A large battery gives plenty of time for a battery to recharge, two
months is a big battery.

I don't understand what you're saying there. A large 'battery', of
whatever type, would take a long time to recharge from flat, when
speed would be of the essence in time for the next lull in the weather
with no generation from unreliables.


The idea of a battery is to smooth out variance. To allow for supply
to match demand. With a big enough battery we just need average energy
production to match average energy demand. Without a big enough
battery we need overcapacity. Hasn't this point been made many times?


Actually the problem does occur with nuclear, too. You need rapid
dispatch to counter the variability of demand.

But nuclear is dispatchable; not ideal (they're best run flat-out
AIUI), but it's not difficult.

Yes, but is it optimal? You would need enough nuclear capacity to
match maximum demand, also turning it down can cause difficulty.

At some point it might be cheaper to have fewer nuclear power stations
generating full all the time. When they have spare capacity they
generate hydrogen, in periods of high demand they use the hydrogen to
fuel rapid dispatch generators.


No point. Cheaper to add a little more pumped storage
Or gas.


I'm pretty sure you have already pointed out we cannot have months of
energy stored in pump storage.

Yes we could use natural gas or burn coal, but the idea we are
discussing is to avoid CO2 emissions.
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Ray wrote:
But has found that magic money tree may said didn't exist?


Don't need a magic money tree, just stop sending
billions a year to the EU.


Have you looked at the net costs of us leaving the EU so far?


Irrelevant, that's a one off cost.

Makes our net EU contribution look like a drop in the ocean...


More lies, because the net EU contribution continues each year.

And the EU should have been told that Article 50 says
nothing about any exit fee and so they should shove
that demand where the sun don't shine, sideways.

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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
About 1000 more peole have died from gas explosions than from nuclear
radiation.


Given gas has been around rather longer than nuclear power, hardly a
surprise?


Just as true even if you only include the time since
power generation by nukes has been possible.

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"Pancho" wrote in message
...
On 20/01/2020 08:16, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 20:17:29 +0000, Pancho
wrote:

On 19/01/2020 14:42, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 13:37:34 +0000, Chris Hogg wrote:

On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 13:17:14 +0000, Pancho
wrote:

On 19/01/2020 12:53, Chris Hogg wrote:

Lots of 'potential' storage solutions, such as compressed air into
underground caverns, trundling very heavy weights on rail tracks up
mountains, Tesla-type batteries everywhere and so on. But none of it
comes near to pumped storage in terms of capacity, and that's very
dependent on the right topography, most of which has already been
used. Those other solutions may be OK for very short term
peak-lopping, but none are capable of storing the amounts of energy
needed to run the country for a several days at this time of year,

OK, I was seeing quotes of hydrogen storage providing months energy
supply as opposed to a few hours for pumped storage. The main
difference
being hydrogen is 40% efficient where as pumped is 80% efficient.


But how and where are they going to store a month's worth of hydrogen?
The volume would be absolutely huge, even if compressed. The phrase
'greens don't do sums' is occasionally trotted out on this NG. That
looks like a classic example of just that.

AND:

Where is the capacity coming from? Unreliables, supported by nuclear?
Bear in mind that whatever unreliable is being used as the primary
generator, when the 'battery' (in whatever form that might be) gets
substantially discharged, not only will the primary generators have to
supply the ongoing day-to-day demand, they will also have to recharge
that 'battery' PDQ, in anticipation of another generation-free period
in a week or so's time. How much extra generating capacity that might
need, I don't know, but substantial, I would think.
That problem doesn't arise with nuclear.

A large battery gives plenty of time for a battery to recharge, two
months is a big battery.


I don't understand what you're saying there. A large 'battery', of
whatever type, would take a long time to recharge from flat, when
speed would be of the essence in time for the next lull in the weather
with no generation from unreliables.


The idea of a battery is to smooth out variance. To allow for supply to
match demand. With a big enough battery we just need average energy
production to match average energy demand. Without a big enough battery we
need overcapacity. Hasn't this point been made many times?


Actually the problem does occur with nuclear, too. You need rapid
dispatch to counter the variability of demand.

But nuclear is dispatchable; not ideal (they're best run flat-out
AIUI), but it's not difficult.

Yes, but is it optimal? You would need enough nuclear capacity to match
maximum demand, also turning it down can cause difficulty.

At some point it might be cheaper to have fewer nuclear power stations
generating full all the time. When they have spare capacity they generate
hydrogen, in periods of high demand they use the hydrogen to fuel rapid
dispatch generators.


The french system proves that you dont need the hydrogen,



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"Pancho" wrote in message
...
On 20/01/2020 11:09, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/01/2020 11:04, Pancho wrote:
On 20/01/2020 04:32, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Nuclear is as capable of rapid dispatch as coal was and coal ran the
entire grid once.

You can store a lot of energy in a big steam boiler

And in the UK we have enough hydro to cover the intermediate dispatch
requirements.




We were discussing high capacity , do keep up.


You really dont understand the subject do you?

Very short term dispatch is catered for by the rotating masses of the
turbines: That covers a powerstation tripping

Minute level dispatch is catered for by hydro and steam in boilers.
hpor level dispatch is catered for by turning the nukes up and down. Or
having some gas.
Renewables contribute zero to all of this and batteries and hydroigen are
an expensive inegffficent (and dangerous) substitute for pumped storage


Pumped storage only lasts for hours, this is not enough to cover extended
periods of excess demand. Hydrogen offers the potential to provide months
of storage.

Hydrogen is expensive but if you have over capacity you might as well do
something with it. We do not have enough mountains to pump water up.


Neither do the french and their system works fine.

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On 20/01/2020 14:12, Rod Speed wrote:


"Pancho" wrote in message
...
On 20/01/2020 11:09, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/01/2020 11:04, Pancho wrote:
On 20/01/2020 04:32, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Nuclear is as capable of rapid dispatch as coal was and coal ran
the entire grid once.

You can store a lot of energy in a big steam boiler

And in the UK we have enough hydro to cover the intermediate
dispatch requirements.




We were discussing high capacity , do keep up.

You really dont understand the subject do you?

Very short term dispatch is catered for by the rotating masses of the
turbines: That covers a powerstation tripping

Minute level dispatch is catered for by hydro and steam in boilers.
hpor level dispatch is catered for by turning the nukes up and down.
Or having some gas.
Renewables contribute zero to all of this and batteries and hydroigen
are an expensive inegffficent (and dangerous) substitute for pumped
storage


Pumped storage only lasts for hours, this is not enough to cover
extended periods of excess demand. Hydrogen offers the potential to
provide months of storage.

Hydrogen is expensive but if you have over capacity you might as well
do something with it. We do not have enough mountains to pump water up.


Neither do the french and their system works fine.



The French do have significantly more mountains than the UK.


They have significantly more hydro power. The French also burn coal and
gas to produce electricity. They import electricity from the UK during
cold snaps.

The French also use fossil fuels for heating.

Actually the CO2 emissions per capita between the UK(5.55) and
France(5.13) aren't that different. Surprisingly similar in fact. I
guess the UK benefited a lot from switching from coal to gas.

So yes France uses a lot of Nuclear power but they have not achieved
especially low CO2 emissions.

see:

https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/france-co2-emissions/
https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/uk-co2-emissions/

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In article ,
Ray wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Ray wrote:
But has found that magic money tree may said didn't exist?


Don't need a magic money tree, just stop sending
billions a year to the EU.


Have you looked at the net costs of us leaving the EU so far?


Irrelevant, that's a one off cost.


Makes our net EU contribution look like a drop in the ocean...


More lies, because the net EU contribution continues each year.


And you think the reduction in our income due to saying we will leave and
leaving the EU is a one off too? Pity most industrialists and other
experts don't agree with you.

And the EU should have been told that Article 50 says
nothing about any exit fee and so they should shove
that demand where the sun don't shine, sideways.


You're the one who decides such things, then?

--
*Virtual reality is its own reward *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Ray wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Ray wrote:
But has found that magic money tree may said didn't exist?

Don't need a magic money tree, just stop sending
billions a year to the EU.


Have you looked at the net costs of us leaving the EU so far?


Irrelevant, that's a one off cost.


Makes our net EU contribution look like a drop in the ocean...


More lies, because the net EU contribution continues each year.


And you think the reduction in our income due to saying
we will leave and leaving the EU is a one off too?


It hasnt been established that there will be any reduction
on the UK income, thats just another Project Fear claim.,

And that has nothing to do with govt money trees anyway.

Pity most industrialists and other experts don't agree with you.


Those are the so called experts that couldnt even
get changing to the euro right, or even manage to
see 2008 coming either.

And the EU should have been told that Article 50 says
nothing about any exit fee and so they should shove
that demand where the sun don't shine, sideways.


You're the one who decides such things, then?


Nope, those who do the brexit negotiations.

Stupid to use remainers to do that.

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On 20/01/2020 11:04, Pancho wrote:
On 20/01/2020 04:30, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/01/2020 20:13, Pancho wrote:
On 19/01/2020 14:50, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/01/2020 13:37, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 13:17:14 +0000, Pancho
wrote:

On 19/01/2020 12:53, Chris Hogg wrote:

Lots of 'potential' storage solutions, such as compressed air into
underground caverns, trundling very heavy weights on rail tracks up
mountains, Tesla-type batteries everywhere and so on. But none of it
comes near to pumped storage in terms of capacity, and that's very
dependent on the right topography, most of which has already been
used. Those other solutions may be OK for very short term
peak-lopping, but none are capable of storing the amounts of energy
needed to run the country for a several days at this time of year,

OK, I was seeing quotes of hydrogen storage providing* months energy
supply as opposed to a few hours for pumped storage. The main
difference
being hydrogen is 40% efficient where as pumped is 80% efficient.


But how and where are they going to store a month's worth of hydrogen?
The volume would be absolutely huge, even if compressed. The phrase
'greens don't do sums' is occasionally trotted out on this NG. That
looks like a classic example of just that.

To power the UK for a day, just on electricity, in winter, takes
about 24 hours at an average of 35Gw

= 840GWh

In terms of nuclear warheads, that is 722 kilotons. 50 Hiroshimas.


Would you rather live:

(a) near a nuclear power station that cannot explode, only melt down
inside a safe containment vessel?
(b) near a megaton explosion capable hydrogen store?

Note: a megaton explosion takes out* about 100 sq km absolutely.

Remind me, how many gas wells have exploded with megaton explosions.


Wells only a few. Storage facilities for gas...one or two with
devastating results

No megaton explosions, then. Gosh, I am surprised.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_explosion

Note that nearly all of these killed more people than chernobyl and
ALL of them killed more people than Fukushimas recator did.



"Note: a megaton explosion takes out* about 100 sq km absolutely."

The idea is to support what you actually claimed not start an irrelevant
tangent.

The point is that no one has been STUPID enough to build a seriously
large hydrogen store of the sort that you are proposing since gas at far
smaller levels has killed tens of thousands



--
In todays liberal progressive conflict-free education system, everyone
gets full Marx.


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On 20/01/2020 11:21, Pancho wrote:
On 20/01/2020 11:05, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/01/2020 11:02, Pancho wrote:
On 20/01/2020 08:16, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 20:17:29 +0000, Pancho
wrote:

On 19/01/2020 14:42, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 13:37:34 +0000, Chris Hogg
wrote:

On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 13:17:14 +0000, Pancho
wrote:

On 19/01/2020 12:53, Chris Hogg wrote:

Lots of 'potential' storage solutions, such as compressed air into
underground caverns, trundling very heavy weights on rail
tracks up
mountains, Tesla-type batteries everywhere and so on. But none
of it
comes near to pumped storage in terms of capacity, and that's very
dependent on the right topography, most of which has already been
used. Those other solutions may be OK for very short term
peak-lopping, but none are capable of storing the amounts of
energy
needed to run the country for a several days at this time of year,

OK, I was seeing quotes of hydrogen storage providing* months
energy
supply as opposed to a few hours for pumped storage. The main
difference
being hydrogen is 40% efficient where as pumped is 80% efficient.


But how and where are they going to store a month's worth of
hydrogen?
The volume would be absolutely huge, even if compressed. The phrase
'greens don't do sums' is occasionally trotted out on this NG. That
looks like a classic example of just that.

AND:

Where is the capacity coming from? Unreliables, supported by nuclear?
Bear in mind that whatever unreliable is being used as the primary
generator, when the 'battery' (in whatever form that might be) gets
substantially discharged, not only will the primary generators
have to
supply the ongoing day-to-day demand, they will also have to recharge
that 'battery' PDQ, in anticipation of another generation-free period
in a week or so's time. How much extra generating capacity that might
need, I don't know, but substantial, I would think.
* That problem doesn't arise with nuclear.

A large battery gives plenty of time for a battery to recharge, two
months is a big battery.

I don't understand what you're saying there. A large 'battery', of
whatever type, would take a long time to recharge from flat, when
speed would be of the essence in time for the next lull in the weather
with no generation from unreliables.

The idea of a battery is to smooth out variance. To allow for supply
to match demand. With a big enough battery we just need average
energy production to match average energy demand. Without a big
enough battery we need overcapacity. Hasn't this point been made many
times?


Actually the problem does occur with nuclear, too. You need rapid
dispatch to counter the variability of demand.

But nuclear is dispatchable; not ideal (they're best run flat-out
AIUI), but it's not difficult.

Yes, but is it optimal? You would need enough nuclear capacity to
match maximum demand, also turning it down can cause difficulty.

At some point it might be cheaper to have fewer nuclear power
stations generating full all the time. When they have spare capacity
they generate hydrogen, in periods of high demand they use the
hydrogen to fuel rapid dispatch generators.


No point. Cheaper to add a little more pumped storage
Or gas.


I'm pretty sure you have already pointed out we cannot have months of
energy stored in pump storage.


We donmt NEED to. we just need enough for daily peaks, with nuclear.
Only with renewable energy do we need a winters worth.



Yes we could use natural gas or burn coal, but the idea we are
discussing is to avoid CO2 emissions.


Then use nukes.

And pumped strorage. That is all you actually NEED.


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On 20/01/2020 11:18, Pancho wrote:
On 20/01/2020 11:09, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/01/2020 11:04, Pancho wrote:
On 20/01/2020 04:32, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Nuclear is as capable of rapid dispatch as coal was and coal ran the
entire grid once.

You can store a lot of energy in a big steam boiler

And in the UK we have enough hydro to cover the intermediate
dispatch requirements.




We were discussing high capacity , do keep up.


You really dont understand the subject do you?

Very short term dispatch is catered for by the rotating masses of the
turbines: That covers a powerstation tripping

Minute level dispatch is catered for by hydro and steam in boilers.
hpor level dispatch is catered for by turning the nukes up and down.
Or having some gas.
Renewables contribute zero to all of this and batteries and hydroigen
are an expensive inegffficent (and dangerous) substitute for pumped
storage


Pumped storage only lasts for hours, this is not enough to cover
extended periods of excess demand.


SSigh. Thats why you have dispatcahable nukes

Hydrogen offers the potential to
provide months of storage.

And I have pointed out the unbelieveable risks and costs assocaited with
that incredibly stupid iudea

Hydrogen is expensive but if you have over capacity you might as well do
something with it. We do not have enough mountains to pump water up.

We do actually. Just.

In the end its all cost benefit analysis driven. How much do you value
CO2 emission at? The higher the cost of then the more nukes and the less
gas power. *Renewables are never the cost effective option*, ever.


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"Pancho" wrote in message
...
On 20/01/2020 14:12, Rod Speed wrote:


"Pancho" wrote in message
...
On 20/01/2020 11:09, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/01/2020 11:04, Pancho wrote:
On 20/01/2020 04:32, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Nuclear is as capable of rapid dispatch as coal was and coal ran the
entire grid once.

You can store a lot of energy in a big steam boiler

And in the UK we have enough hydro to cover the intermediate dispatch
requirements.




We were discussing high capacity , do keep up.

You really dont understand the subject do you?

Very short term dispatch is catered for by the rotating masses of the
turbines: That covers a powerstation tripping

Minute level dispatch is catered for by hydro and steam in boilers.
hpor level dispatch is catered for by turning the nukes up and down. Or
having some gas.
Renewables contribute zero to all of this and batteries and hydroigen
are an expensive inegffficent (and dangerous) substitute for pumped
storage


Pumped storage only lasts for hours, this is not enough to cover
extended periods of excess demand. Hydrogen offers the potential to
provide months of storage.

Hydrogen is expensive but if you have over capacity you might as well do
something with it. We do not have enough mountains to pump water up.


Neither do the french and their system works fine.



The French do have significantly more mountains than the UK.


That may well be true, but given
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...power_stations
it doesnt appear that they have any more pumped
storage than the UK and use the different fuel rod
approach for handling the varying load on their
system instead of pumped storage.

But that doesnt actually list the MWh of their's.

They have significantly more hydro power.


Thats a separate issue to how best to handle the
varying load on nukes.

The French also use fossil fuels for heating.


Another separate issue to varying load on the nukes.



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On 20/01/2020 15:01, Pancho wrote:
Actually the CO2 emissions per capita between the UK(5.55) and
France(5.13) aren't that different. Surprisingly similar in fact. I
guess the UK benefited a lot from switching from coal to gas.


Complete lie. As far as the grid goes they emit 6 times less than us and
ten times less than germany.


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On 20/01/2020 15:27, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Pancho
wrote:

So yes France uses a* lot of Nuclear power but they have not achieved
especially low CO2 emissions.


Prolly helps their balance of payments, however, as they can export
some of those nuclear volts.

Pancho is simply lying. The Frencah have the lowest emissions in Europe
bar none on electricity production. Germany is the highest.

Also rans are sweden and switzerland with a nuclear hydro mix.

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