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On 31/01/2020 05:43, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/01/2020 18:07, Pancho wrote:
On 29/01/2020 10:10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/01/2020 21:00, Robin wrote:
On 28/01/2020 18:33, Steve Walker wrote:

I would love to save money by saving energy, but physical
constraints rule out better insulation as an option - other than
replacing all the windows.


For our bedrooms I've pondered filling in the windows in (with
insulation), heat recovery vents through the ceiling, and flat
screen TVs on the inside with a live feed from external cameras to
see if it's raining etc.Â* But I feel there's likely to be problems
with the planners and over fire access

I've also pondered, given theÂ* thermal performance of even double
glazed windows,Â* putting to the Treasury the merits of a "window tax".


You can add thermally interlined curtains and gain at least double
tethe double glazed performance


This is something I have wondered about. I have roller blinds, which I
figure would be quite effective, as there is an air gap. The fly in
the ointment of this theory is convection. I even drilled little
magnets into my window frames, so that the roller blinds snap shut at
the bottom. But there is still the sides and top, I think the top is
what pelmets were for?


But I guess convection would hurt thermally lined curtains too.

I've never seen any compelling research on this subject.

When I draw the big thermally lined curtains in my living room in the
mornings the wash of cold air on me bare tootsies suggests they do more
than a little.

Even though there are air gaps, they slow the rate of airflow down a lot..

and they cut down radiative losses too.


Remember it's the base where the cold air wants to fall out. Not the
top.Normally the window cill is pretty much up against the lower part of
the curtain, and people who let theirs drape on the floor have even more
chance of trapping the air.


I agree that curtains can make a useful difference. And that it's
important to try to create a layer of still air. Quantifying the
benefits is more problematic. The little research I've read suggests
suggests it'd be a stretch to double the R value of even single glazed
windows.



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Robin
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In message , Robin
writes
On 31/01/2020 05:43, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/01/2020 18:07, Pancho wrote:
On 29/01/2020 10:10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/01/2020 21:00, Robin wrote:
On 28/01/2020 18:33, Steve Walker wrote:

I would love to save money by saving energy, but physical
constraints rule out better insulation as an option - other than
replacing all the windows.


For our bedrooms I've pondered filling in the windows in (with
insulation), heat recovery vents through the ceiling, and flat
screen TVs on the inside with a live feed from external cameras to
see if it's raining etc.* But I feel there's likely to be problems
with the planners and over fire access

I've also pondered, given the* thermal performance of even double
glazed windows,* putting to the Treasury the merits of a "window tax".


You can add thermally interlined curtains and gain at least double
tethe double glazed performance


This is something I have wondered about. I have roller blinds, which
I figure would be quite effective, as there is an air gap. The fly
in the ointment of this theory is convection. I even drilled little
magnets into my window frames, so that the roller blinds snap shut at
the bottom. But there is still the sides and top, I think the top is
what pelmets were for?


But I guess convection would hurt thermally lined curtains too.

I've never seen any compelling research on this subject.

When I draw the big thermally lined curtains in my living room in the
mornings the wash of cold air on me bare tootsies suggests they do
more than a little.
Even though there are air gaps, they slow the rate of airflow down a
lot..
and they cut down radiative losses too.
Remember it's the base where the cold air wants to fall out. Not
the top.Normally the window cill is pretty much up against the lower
part of the curtain, and people who let theirs drape on the floor
have even more chance of trapping the air.

I agree that curtains can make a useful difference. And that it's
important to try to create a layer of still air. Quantifying the
benefits is more problematic. The little research I've read suggests
suggests it'd be a stretch to double the R value of even single glazed
windows.


Anyone care to guesstimate the thermal benefit of replacing existing
sliding patio doors (8mm? glass spacing) with modern 24mm? spaced ones?

Not anticipating a cost payback but matching existing underfloor heating
performance with otherwise fixed thermal losses.

Full length curtain already fitted.




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On 31/01/2020 08:59, Robin wrote:
On 31/01/2020 05:43, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/01/2020 18:07, Pancho wrote:
On 29/01/2020 10:10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/01/2020 21:00, Robin wrote:
On 28/01/2020 18:33, Steve Walker wrote:

I would love to save money by saving energy, but physical
constraints rule out better insulation as an option - other than
replacing all the windows.


For our bedrooms I've pondered filling in the windows in (with
insulation), heat recovery vents through the ceiling, and flat
screen TVs on the inside with a live feed from external cameras to
see if it's raining etc.Â* But I feel there's likely to be problems
with the planners and over fire access

I've also pondered, given theÂ* thermal performance of even double
glazed windows,Â* putting to the Treasury the merits of a "window tax".


You can add thermally interlined curtains and gain at least double
tethe double glazed performance


This is something I have wondered about. I have roller blinds, which
I figure would be quite effective, as there is an air gap. The fly in
the ointment of this theory is convection. I even drilled little
magnets into my window frames, so that the roller blinds snap shut at
the bottom. But there is still the sides and top, I think the top is
what pelmets were for?


But I guess convection would hurt thermally lined curtains too.

I've never seen any compelling research on this subject.

When I draw the big thermally lined curtains in my living room in the
mornings the wash of cold air on me bare tootsies suggests they do
more than a little.

Even though there are air gaps, they slow the rate of airflow down a
lot..

and they cut down radiative losses too.


Remember it's the base where the cold air wants to fall out. Not the
top.Normally the window cill is pretty much up against the lower part
of the curtain, and people who let theirs drape on the floor have even
more chance of trapping the air.


I agree that curtains can make a useful difference.Â* And that it's
important to try to create a layer of still air. Quantifying the
benefits is more problematic.Â* The little research I've read suggests
suggests it'd be a stretch to double the R value of even single glazed
windows.


Well my experience shows that it is a massive difference on single glazed.





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Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.
  #324   Report Post  
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On 31/01/2020 09:36, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 31/01/2020 08:59, Robin wrote:
On 31/01/2020 05:43, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/01/2020 18:07, Pancho wrote:
On 29/01/2020 10:10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/01/2020 21:00, Robin wrote:
On 28/01/2020 18:33, Steve Walker wrote:

I would love to save money by saving energy, but physical
constraints rule out better insulation as an option - other than
replacing all the windows.


For our bedrooms I've pondered filling in the windows in (with
insulation), heat recovery vents through the ceiling, and flat
screen TVs on the inside with a live feed from external cameras to
see if it's raining etc.Â* But I feel there's likely to be problems
with the planners and over fire access

I've also pondered, given theÂ* thermal performance of even double
glazed windows,Â* putting to the Treasury the merits of a "window
tax".


You can add thermally interlined curtains and gain at least double
tethe double glazed performance


This is something I have wondered about. I have roller blinds, which
I figure would be quite effective, as there is an air gap. The fly
in the ointment of this theory is convection. I even drilled little
magnets into my window frames, so that the roller blinds snap shut
at the bottom. But there is still the sides and top, I think the top
is what pelmets were for?


But I guess convection would hurt thermally lined curtains too.

I've never seen any compelling research on this subject.

When I draw the big thermally lined curtains in my living room in the
mornings the wash of cold air on me bare tootsies suggests they do
more than a little.

Even though there are air gaps, they slow the rate of airflow down a
lot..

and they cut down radiative losses too.


Remember it's the base where the cold air wants to fall out. Not the
top.Normally the window cill is pretty much up against the lower part
of the curtain, and people who let theirs drape on the floor have
even more chance of trapping the air.


I agree that curtains can make a useful difference.Â* And that it's
important to try to create a layer of still air. Quantifying the
benefits is more problematic.Â* The little research I've read suggests
suggests it'd be a stretch to double the R value of even single glazed
windows.


Well my experience shows that it is a massive difference on single glazed.


One man's massive....

The most recent paper I've kept is at
http://usir.salford.ac.uk/id/eprint/42429/



--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
  #325   Report Post  
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On 31/01/2020 10:01, Robin wrote:
On 31/01/2020 09:36, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 31/01/2020 08:59, Robin wrote:
On 31/01/2020 05:43, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/01/2020 18:07, Pancho wrote:
On 29/01/2020 10:10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/01/2020 21:00, Robin wrote:
On 28/01/2020 18:33, Steve Walker wrote:

I would love to save money by saving energy, but physical
constraints rule out better insulation as an option - other than
replacing all the windows.


For our bedrooms I've pondered filling in the windows in (with
insulation), heat recovery vents through the ceiling, and flat
screen TVs on the inside with a live feed from external cameras
to see if it's raining etc.Â* But I feel there's likely to be
problems with the planners and over fire access

I've also pondered, given theÂ* thermal performance of even double
glazed windows,Â* putting to the Treasury the merits of a "window
tax".


You can add thermally interlined curtains and gain at least double
tethe double glazed performance


This is something I have wondered about. I have roller blinds,
which I figure would be quite effective, as there is an air gap.
The fly in the ointment of this theory is convection. I even
drilled little magnets into my window frames, so that the roller
blinds snap shut at the bottom. But there is still the sides and
top, I think the top is what pelmets were for?


But I guess convection would hurt thermally lined curtains too.

I've never seen any compelling research on this subject.

When I draw the big thermally lined curtains in my living room in
the mornings the wash of cold air on me bare tootsies suggests they
do more than a little.

Even though there are air gaps, they slow the rate of airflow down a
lot..

and they cut down radiative losses too.


Remember it's the base where the cold air wants to fall out. Not the
top.Normally the window cill is pretty much up against the lower
part of the curtain, and people who let theirs drape on the floor
have even more chance of trapping the air.


I agree that curtains can make a useful difference.Â* And that it's
important to try to create a layer of still air. Quantifying the
benefits is more problematic.Â* The little research I've read suggests
suggests it'd be a stretch to double the R value of even single
glazed windows.


Well my experience shows that it is a massive difference on single
glazed.


One man's massive....

The most recent paper I've kept is at
http://usir.salford.ac.uk/id/eprint/42429/


which suggest that heavy lined curtains nearly halve heatloss - not far
off double glazing

I'd call that massive.

essentially: single glazing - 5.16
single glazing with heavy curtain - 2.86
double glazing - 2



--
The lifetime of any political organisation is about three years before
its been subverted by the people it tried to warn you about.

Anon.


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On 31/01/2020 10:53, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 31/01/2020 10:01, Robin wrote:
On 31/01/2020 09:36, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 31/01/2020 08:59, Robin wrote:
On 31/01/2020 05:43, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/01/2020 18:07, Pancho wrote:
On 29/01/2020 10:10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/01/2020 21:00, Robin wrote:
On 28/01/2020 18:33, Steve Walker wrote:

I would love to save money by saving energy, but physical
constraints rule out better insulation as an option - other
than replacing all the windows.


For our bedrooms I've pondered filling in the windows in (with
insulation), heat recovery vents through the ceiling, and flat
screen TVs on the inside with a live feed from external cameras
to see if it's raining etc.Â* But I feel there's likely to be
problems with the planners and over fire access

I've also pondered, given theÂ* thermal performance of even
double glazed windows,Â* putting to the Treasury the merits of a
"window tax".


You can add thermally interlined curtains and gain at least
double tethe double glazed performance


This is something I have wondered about. I have roller blinds,
which I figure would be quite effective, as there is an air gap.
The fly in the ointment of this theory is convection. I even
drilled little magnets into my window frames, so that the roller
blinds snap shut at the bottom. But there is still the sides and
top, I think the top is what pelmets were for?


But I guess convection would hurt thermally lined curtains too.

I've never seen any compelling research on this subject.

When I draw the big thermally lined curtains in my living room in
the mornings the wash of cold air on me bare tootsies suggests they
do more than a little.

Even though there are air gaps, they slow the rate of airflow down
a lot..

and they cut down radiative losses too.


Remember it's the base where the cold air wants to fall out. Not
the top.Normally the window cill is pretty much up against the
lower part of the curtain, and people who let theirs drape on the
floor have even more chance of trapping the air.


I agree that curtains can make a useful difference.Â* And that it's
important to try to create a layer of still air. Quantifying the
benefits is more problematic.Â* The little research I've read
suggests suggests it'd be a stretch to double the R value of even
single glazed windows.


Well my experience shows that it is a massive difference on single
glazed.


One man's massive....

The most recent paper I've kept is at
http://usir.salford.ac.uk/id/eprint/42429/


which suggest that heavy lined curtains nearly halve heatloss - not far
off double glazing

I'd call that massive.

essentially: single glazing - 5.16
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* single glazing with heavy curtain - 2.86
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* double glazing - 2



Those are U-values the author quotes from the CIBSE Guide A 2005 which
AIUI were based on steady state "laboratory" studies. The figures he
goes on to report from the Salford "whole house" facility are rather
different. Eg for the U-value for the living room went from 5.10 to
4.13 with lined curtains (albeit not special, thermal ones). To
paraphrase his conclusion, "real life is complex".
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On 31/01/2020 16:03, Robin wrote:
Eg for the U-value for the living room went from 5.10 to 4.13 with lined
curtains (albeit not special, thermal ones).Â* To paraphrase his
conclusion, "real life is complex".


And that is not the U value for the windows, but the whole room which if
its 5 is crap aleady.


That is simply not what I have here. My room in total meets U value of 2
because that was the design target but has single glazing in very well
insulated walls.

Adding curtans makes a hell of a difference to the side with french
windows. Anhd those ciurtains are floor scrapers

In shortt he is looking at curtains in a poortly insulated single glazed
house: frankly sort the walls out first. .


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Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.
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On 31/01/2020 21:49, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 31/01/2020 16:03, Robin wrote:
Eg for the U-value for the living room went from 5.10 to 4.13 with
lined curtains (albeit not special, thermal ones).Â* To paraphrase his
conclusion, "real life is complex".


And that is not the U value for the windows, but the whole room which if
its 5 is crap aleady.


Yes. My mistake.

That is simply not what I have here. My room in total meets U value of 2
because that was the design target but has single glazing in very well
insulated walls.


Adding curtans makes a hell of a difference to the side with french
windows. Anhd those ciurtains are floor scrapers


If that's what you'd said from the outset I'd not have commented. I was
triggered by what I think now may have been a slip of the keyboard in
your "thermally interlined curtains and gain at least double the
/double/ glazed performance" [emphasis added]




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Robin
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On 01/02/2020 08:22, Robin wrote:
On 31/01/2020 21:49, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 31/01/2020 16:03, Robin wrote:
Eg for the U-value for the living room went from 5.10 to 4.13 with
lined curtains (albeit not special, thermal ones).Â* To paraphrase his
conclusion, "real life is complex".


And that is not the U value for the windows, but the whole room which
if its 5 is crap aleady.


Yes.Â* My mistake.

That is simply not what I have here. My room in total meets U value of
2 because that was the design target but has single glazing in very
well insulated walls.


Adding curtans makes a hell of a difference to the side with french
windows. Anhd those ciurtains are floor scrapers


If that's what you'd said from the outset I'd not have commented.Â* I was
triggered by what I think now may have been a slip of the keyboard in
your "thermally interlined curtains and gain at least double the
/double/ glazed performance" [emphasis added]



I don't recall actually saying that.





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