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#321
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Hydrogen engines
On 31/01/2020 05:43, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/01/2020 18:07, Pancho wrote: On 29/01/2020 10:10, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 28/01/2020 21:00, Robin wrote: On 28/01/2020 18:33, Steve Walker wrote: I would love to save money by saving energy, but physical constraints rule out better insulation as an option - other than replacing all the windows. For our bedrooms I've pondered filling in the windows in (with insulation), heat recovery vents through the ceiling, and flat screen TVs on the inside with a live feed from external cameras to see if it's raining etc.Â* But I feel there's likely to be problems with the planners and over fire access I've also pondered, given theÂ* thermal performance of even double glazed windows,Â* putting to the Treasury the merits of a "window tax". You can add thermally interlined curtains and gain at least double tethe double glazed performance This is something I have wondered about. I have roller blinds, which I figure would be quite effective, as there is an air gap. The fly in the ointment of this theory is convection. I even drilled little magnets into my window frames, so that the roller blinds snap shut at the bottom. But there is still the sides and top, I think the top is what pelmets were for? But I guess convection would hurt thermally lined curtains too. I've never seen any compelling research on this subject. When I draw the big thermally lined curtains in my living room in the mornings the wash of cold air on me bare tootsies suggests they do more than a little. Even though there are air gaps, they slow the rate of airflow down a lot.. and they cut down radiative losses too. Remember it's the base where the cold air wants to fall out. Not the top.Normally the window cill is pretty much up against the lower part of the curtain, and people who let theirs drape on the floor have even more chance of trapping the air. I agree that curtains can make a useful difference. And that it's important to try to create a layer of still air. Quantifying the benefits is more problematic. The little research I've read suggests suggests it'd be a stretch to double the R value of even single glazed windows. -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
#322
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Hydrogen engines
In message , Robin
writes On 31/01/2020 05:43, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 30/01/2020 18:07, Pancho wrote: On 29/01/2020 10:10, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 28/01/2020 21:00, Robin wrote: On 28/01/2020 18:33, Steve Walker wrote: I would love to save money by saving energy, but physical constraints rule out better insulation as an option - other than replacing all the windows. For our bedrooms I've pondered filling in the windows in (with insulation), heat recovery vents through the ceiling, and flat screen TVs on the inside with a live feed from external cameras to see if it's raining etc.* But I feel there's likely to be problems with the planners and over fire access I've also pondered, given the* thermal performance of even double glazed windows,* putting to the Treasury the merits of a "window tax". You can add thermally interlined curtains and gain at least double tethe double glazed performance This is something I have wondered about. I have roller blinds, which I figure would be quite effective, as there is an air gap. The fly in the ointment of this theory is convection. I even drilled little magnets into my window frames, so that the roller blinds snap shut at the bottom. But there is still the sides and top, I think the top is what pelmets were for? But I guess convection would hurt thermally lined curtains too. I've never seen any compelling research on this subject. When I draw the big thermally lined curtains in my living room in the mornings the wash of cold air on me bare tootsies suggests they do more than a little. Even though there are air gaps, they slow the rate of airflow down a lot.. and they cut down radiative losses too. Remember it's the base where the cold air wants to fall out. Not the top.Normally the window cill is pretty much up against the lower part of the curtain, and people who let theirs drape on the floor have even more chance of trapping the air. I agree that curtains can make a useful difference. And that it's important to try to create a layer of still air. Quantifying the benefits is more problematic. The little research I've read suggests suggests it'd be a stretch to double the R value of even single glazed windows. Anyone care to guesstimate the thermal benefit of replacing existing sliding patio doors (8mm? glass spacing) with modern 24mm? spaced ones? Not anticipating a cost payback but matching existing underfloor heating performance with otherwise fixed thermal losses. Full length curtain already fitted. -- Tim Lamb |
#323
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Hydrogen engines
On 31/01/2020 08:59, Robin wrote:
On 31/01/2020 05:43, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 30/01/2020 18:07, Pancho wrote: On 29/01/2020 10:10, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 28/01/2020 21:00, Robin wrote: On 28/01/2020 18:33, Steve Walker wrote: I would love to save money by saving energy, but physical constraints rule out better insulation as an option - other than replacing all the windows. For our bedrooms I've pondered filling in the windows in (with insulation), heat recovery vents through the ceiling, and flat screen TVs on the inside with a live feed from external cameras to see if it's raining etc.Â* But I feel there's likely to be problems with the planners and over fire access I've also pondered, given theÂ* thermal performance of even double glazed windows,Â* putting to the Treasury the merits of a "window tax". You can add thermally interlined curtains and gain at least double tethe double glazed performance This is something I have wondered about. I have roller blinds, which I figure would be quite effective, as there is an air gap. The fly in the ointment of this theory is convection. I even drilled little magnets into my window frames, so that the roller blinds snap shut at the bottom. But there is still the sides and top, I think the top is what pelmets were for? But I guess convection would hurt thermally lined curtains too. I've never seen any compelling research on this subject. When I draw the big thermally lined curtains in my living room in the mornings the wash of cold air on me bare tootsies suggests they do more than a little. Even though there are air gaps, they slow the rate of airflow down a lot.. and they cut down radiative losses too. Remember it's the base where the cold air wants to fall out. Not the top.Normally the window cill is pretty much up against the lower part of the curtain, and people who let theirs drape on the floor have even more chance of trapping the air. I agree that curtains can make a useful difference.Â* And that it's important to try to create a layer of still air. Quantifying the benefits is more problematic.Â* The little research I've read suggests suggests it'd be a stretch to double the R value of even single glazed windows. Well my experience shows that it is a massive difference on single glazed. -- Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques. |
#324
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Hydrogen engines
On 31/01/2020 09:36, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 31/01/2020 08:59, Robin wrote: On 31/01/2020 05:43, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 30/01/2020 18:07, Pancho wrote: On 29/01/2020 10:10, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 28/01/2020 21:00, Robin wrote: On 28/01/2020 18:33, Steve Walker wrote: I would love to save money by saving energy, but physical constraints rule out better insulation as an option - other than replacing all the windows. For our bedrooms I've pondered filling in the windows in (with insulation), heat recovery vents through the ceiling, and flat screen TVs on the inside with a live feed from external cameras to see if it's raining etc.Â* But I feel there's likely to be problems with the planners and over fire access I've also pondered, given theÂ* thermal performance of even double glazed windows,Â* putting to the Treasury the merits of a "window tax". You can add thermally interlined curtains and gain at least double tethe double glazed performance This is something I have wondered about. I have roller blinds, which I figure would be quite effective, as there is an air gap. The fly in the ointment of this theory is convection. I even drilled little magnets into my window frames, so that the roller blinds snap shut at the bottom. But there is still the sides and top, I think the top is what pelmets were for? But I guess convection would hurt thermally lined curtains too. I've never seen any compelling research on this subject. When I draw the big thermally lined curtains in my living room in the mornings the wash of cold air on me bare tootsies suggests they do more than a little. Even though there are air gaps, they slow the rate of airflow down a lot.. and they cut down radiative losses too. Remember it's the base where the cold air wants to fall out. Not the top.Normally the window cill is pretty much up against the lower part of the curtain, and people who let theirs drape on the floor have even more chance of trapping the air. I agree that curtains can make a useful difference.Â* And that it's important to try to create a layer of still air. Quantifying the benefits is more problematic.Â* The little research I've read suggests suggests it'd be a stretch to double the R value of even single glazed windows. Well my experience shows that it is a massive difference on single glazed. One man's massive.... The most recent paper I've kept is at http://usir.salford.ac.uk/id/eprint/42429/ -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
#325
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Hydrogen engines
On 31/01/2020 10:01, Robin wrote:
On 31/01/2020 09:36, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 31/01/2020 08:59, Robin wrote: On 31/01/2020 05:43, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 30/01/2020 18:07, Pancho wrote: On 29/01/2020 10:10, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 28/01/2020 21:00, Robin wrote: On 28/01/2020 18:33, Steve Walker wrote: I would love to save money by saving energy, but physical constraints rule out better insulation as an option - other than replacing all the windows. For our bedrooms I've pondered filling in the windows in (with insulation), heat recovery vents through the ceiling, and flat screen TVs on the inside with a live feed from external cameras to see if it's raining etc.Â* But I feel there's likely to be problems with the planners and over fire access I've also pondered, given theÂ* thermal performance of even double glazed windows,Â* putting to the Treasury the merits of a "window tax". You can add thermally interlined curtains and gain at least double tethe double glazed performance This is something I have wondered about. I have roller blinds, which I figure would be quite effective, as there is an air gap. The fly in the ointment of this theory is convection. I even drilled little magnets into my window frames, so that the roller blinds snap shut at the bottom. But there is still the sides and top, I think the top is what pelmets were for? But I guess convection would hurt thermally lined curtains too. I've never seen any compelling research on this subject. When I draw the big thermally lined curtains in my living room in the mornings the wash of cold air on me bare tootsies suggests they do more than a little. Even though there are air gaps, they slow the rate of airflow down a lot.. and they cut down radiative losses too. Remember it's the base where the cold air wants to fall out. Not the top.Normally the window cill is pretty much up against the lower part of the curtain, and people who let theirs drape on the floor have even more chance of trapping the air. I agree that curtains can make a useful difference.Â* And that it's important to try to create a layer of still air. Quantifying the benefits is more problematic.Â* The little research I've read suggests suggests it'd be a stretch to double the R value of even single glazed windows. Well my experience shows that it is a massive difference on single glazed. One man's massive.... The most recent paper I've kept is at http://usir.salford.ac.uk/id/eprint/42429/ which suggest that heavy lined curtains nearly halve heatloss - not far off double glazing I'd call that massive. essentially: single glazing - 5.16 single glazing with heavy curtain - 2.86 double glazing - 2 -- The lifetime of any political organisation is about three years before its been subverted by the people it tried to warn you about. Anon. |
#326
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Hydrogen engines
On 31/01/2020 10:53, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 31/01/2020 10:01, Robin wrote: On 31/01/2020 09:36, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 31/01/2020 08:59, Robin wrote: On 31/01/2020 05:43, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 30/01/2020 18:07, Pancho wrote: On 29/01/2020 10:10, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 28/01/2020 21:00, Robin wrote: On 28/01/2020 18:33, Steve Walker wrote: I would love to save money by saving energy, but physical constraints rule out better insulation as an option - other than replacing all the windows. For our bedrooms I've pondered filling in the windows in (with insulation), heat recovery vents through the ceiling, and flat screen TVs on the inside with a live feed from external cameras to see if it's raining etc.Â* But I feel there's likely to be problems with the planners and over fire access I've also pondered, given theÂ* thermal performance of even double glazed windows,Â* putting to the Treasury the merits of a "window tax". You can add thermally interlined curtains and gain at least double tethe double glazed performance This is something I have wondered about. I have roller blinds, which I figure would be quite effective, as there is an air gap. The fly in the ointment of this theory is convection. I even drilled little magnets into my window frames, so that the roller blinds snap shut at the bottom. But there is still the sides and top, I think the top is what pelmets were for? But I guess convection would hurt thermally lined curtains too. I've never seen any compelling research on this subject. When I draw the big thermally lined curtains in my living room in the mornings the wash of cold air on me bare tootsies suggests they do more than a little. Even though there are air gaps, they slow the rate of airflow down a lot.. and they cut down radiative losses too. Remember it's the base where the cold air wants to fall out. Not the top.Normally the window cill is pretty much up against the lower part of the curtain, and people who let theirs drape on the floor have even more chance of trapping the air. I agree that curtains can make a useful difference.Â* And that it's important to try to create a layer of still air. Quantifying the benefits is more problematic.Â* The little research I've read suggests suggests it'd be a stretch to double the R value of even single glazed windows. Well my experience shows that it is a massive difference on single glazed. One man's massive.... The most recent paper I've kept is at http://usir.salford.ac.uk/id/eprint/42429/ which suggest that heavy lined curtains nearly halve heatloss - not far off double glazing I'd call that massive. essentially: single glazing - 5.16 Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* single glazing with heavy curtain - 2.86 Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* double glazing - 2 Those are U-values the author quotes from the CIBSE Guide A 2005 which AIUI were based on steady state "laboratory" studies. The figures he goes on to report from the Salford "whole house" facility are rather different. Eg for the U-value for the living room went from 5.10 to 4.13 with lined curtains (albeit not special, thermal ones). To paraphrase his conclusion, "real life is complex". -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
#327
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Hydrogen engines
On 31/01/2020 16:03, Robin wrote:
Eg for the U-value for the living room went from 5.10 to 4.13 with lined curtains (albeit not special, thermal ones).Â* To paraphrase his conclusion, "real life is complex". And that is not the U value for the windows, but the whole room which if its 5 is crap aleady. That is simply not what I have here. My room in total meets U value of 2 because that was the design target but has single glazing in very well insulated walls. Adding curtans makes a hell of a difference to the side with french windows. Anhd those ciurtains are floor scrapers In shortt he is looking at curtains in a poortly insulated single glazed house: frankly sort the walls out first. . -- Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat. |
#328
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Hydrogen engines
On 31/01/2020 21:49, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 31/01/2020 16:03, Robin wrote: Eg for the U-value for the living room went from 5.10 to 4.13 with lined curtains (albeit not special, thermal ones).Â* To paraphrase his conclusion, "real life is complex". And that is not the U value for the windows, but the whole room which if its 5 is crap aleady. Yes. My mistake. That is simply not what I have here. My room in total meets U value of 2 because that was the design target but has single glazing in very well insulated walls. Adding curtans makes a hell of a difference to the side with french windows. Anhd those ciurtains are floor scrapers If that's what you'd said from the outset I'd not have commented. I was triggered by what I think now may have been a slip of the keyboard in your "thermally interlined curtains and gain at least double the /double/ glazed performance" [emphasis added] -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
#329
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Hydrogen engines
On 01/02/2020 08:22, Robin wrote:
On 31/01/2020 21:49, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 31/01/2020 16:03, Robin wrote: Eg for the U-value for the living room went from 5.10 to 4.13 with lined curtains (albeit not special, thermal ones).Â* To paraphrase his conclusion, "real life is complex". And that is not the U value for the windows, but the whole room which if its 5 is crap aleady. Yes.Â* My mistake. That is simply not what I have here. My room in total meets U value of 2 because that was the design target but has single glazing in very well insulated walls. Adding curtans makes a hell of a difference to the side with french windows. Anhd those ciurtains are floor scrapers If that's what you'd said from the outset I'd not have commented.Â* I was triggered by what I think now may have been a slip of the keyboard in your "thermally interlined curtains and gain at least double the /double/ glazed performance" [emphasis added] I don't recall actually saying that. -- No Apple devices were knowingly used in the preparation of this post. |
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