On 09/10/2019 16:50, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
And the CO2 and other stuff when they catch fire :-)

Apparently some EU countries have special mobile tanks to
dump an entire Tesla car into and flood it, because those
Lithium batteries are sods to put out after a vehicle fire.

water of course makes it worse.


And a full tank of petrol is safe as houses? ;-)

Relatively, probably. Even with cars that are well on fire, only a small
proportion ever have the petrol tank go. Electric car fires are quite
likely to be battery fires in the first place and are then very
difficult to deal with.

SteveW

On 09/10/2019 17:20, Steve Walker wrote:
On 09/10/2019 13:50, Tim+ wrote:
dennis@home wrote:
On 09/10/2019 12:53, R D S wrote:
On 07/10/2019 05:30, Andy Burns wrote:

People seem to think this is normal/acceptable ...

Yep.

A housing estate was built around our small row of terraces about 12
years ago.

For whatever reason (Faulty? Windows open? Pets left in? Insensibly
placed sensors? Power outages?), I can't remember the last time I went
more than a few hours without hearing an alarm wail.

Sometimes just for a couple of minutes, sometimes all day/night.

Makes me dread summer.

If one sounds for more than 20 minutes you can get the council to
silence it, and bill the owner for doing so.

How will they silence it? Long ladder and a can of squirty foam?
Personally I dont think councils would put workers lives at risk
(working
at height) just to deal with a self limiting nuisance. I could be wrong
though.

It is a requirement for owners of properties with alarms to register
them with the police and nominate two keyholders. Most people probably
don't, but report the alarm to the police and request that they contact
the keyholders. If it turns out (most likely) that they have not
nominated any, reporting a noise nuisance (not as a one off) to the
council and pointing out the lack of nominated keyholders may get them
to at least contact the owners and make threats of action.


Some years ago my Brothers next door neighbours were on holiday and
their alarm went off and did not stop.

A phone call was made to the council and they said that they could come
and stop the alarm but the owner would get a bill.

In the end it was decided that I should disable the bell box to save the
neighbours (who were a family that everyone on the street got one with)
the money and let them fix it when they got back off holiday.



--
Adam

"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 09/10/2019 09:52, dennis@home wrote:
On 08/10/2019 22:34, Rod Speed wrote:
8

Didnt happen here. We had the mains off for 3 hours to replace a couple
of power poles which have the 11KV distribution line on the top with the
4 wire 240/415 service below that.

That sound stupid, if the 11kV falls down you could get contact with the
240V and give someone a good shock.


Round here, where that occurs there is an earthed bare copper wire
above the 240/415 lines so that a breaker will blow before the
low voltage lines are hit.

Not here, but the breaker does trip when that happens anyway.

On 08/10/2019 12:59, dennis@home wrote:
On 08/10/2019 11:20, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* alan_m wrote:
My bell box has a rechargeable battery that is also trickle charged in
my wired system via the alarm panel. My bell box also has red flashing
LEDs so a self contained non-rechargeable battery may not last that
long.

The tamper circuit in a bell box is often a spring loaded mechanical
switch which when the box is removed from the wall is activated.

I thought the bell box battery is only there so it will sound if it or
the
wiring to it is tampered with. Under other circumstances, the panel
supplies the ringing volts to it - either from mains or its battery.


Self Actuating Bells do not ring whenÂ* voltage is supplied from the panel.
The 12v from the panel stops them ringing and charges the battery.

When an alarm condition exists the 12V is removed and they bell rings
until it comes back or the battery goes flat or if its a modern one a
timer expires.

There is a difference between SABs and SCBs.

A SAB's siren is powered via the control panel and the SCB's siren is
powered via it's internal battery.

0V is normally applied to the bell terminal on both to activate the siren.

The removal of 12v to either will activate the tamper and the siren will
sound due it's internal batteries.

Only cheap and nasty DIY alarms need 12V to operate the bell.
If you have one then get rid of it as it takes seconds to cut the wires
and then there is no external bell.

The old fashioned strobes may be powered from the box, mine are, they
take too much power for the battery.

Its not the same 12V that operates the rest of the box.

The main reason for the strobes having a different supply to that of the
siren is so that they can continue to flash after the siren has stopped.


--
Adam

On 09/10/2019 12:33, dennis@home wrote:
On 09/10/2019 10:26, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* dennis@home wrote:
On 08/10/2019 11:20, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â*Â* alan_m wrote:
My bell box has a rechargeable battery that is also trickle charged
in my wired system via the alarm panel. My bell box also has red
flashing LEDs so a self contained non-rechargeable battery may not
last that long.

The tamper circuit in a bell box is often a spring loaded mechanical
switch which when the box is removed from the wall is activated.

I thought the bell box battery is only there so it will sound if it or
the wiring to it is tampered with. Under other circumstances, the
panel supplies the ringing volts to it - either from mains or its
battery.


Self Actuating Bells do not ring whenÂ* voltage is supplied from the
panel. The 12v from the panel stops them ringing and charges the
battery.

OK.

When an alarm condition exists the 12V is removed and they bell rings
until it comes back or the battery goes flat or if its a modern one a
timer expires.


Only cheap and nasty DIY alarms need 12V to operate the bell.
If you have one then get rid of it as it takes seconds to cut the wires
and then there is no external bell.

But if you remove the 12v the sounder sounds?

It does on a decent one.


No expert on alarm internals since I've only ever followed a wiring
diagram. But with your method, it would mean the sounder no longer works
if the internal battery is kaput?

That's why you can test them.

Its how all the bell boxes on banks work so it can't be the worst way.
No banks use one that rings when it is powered by 12v in an alarm
condition.

I have actually installed some for Chubb alarms but it was a long time
ago and I quit as I didn't like the training bloke as he was getting
things wrong about mains and didn't like being corrected.

It was my first proper job before I moved the GEC telecomms.


The old fashioned strobes may be powered from the box, mine are, they
take too much power for the battery.

Its not the same 12V that operates the rest of the box.

Thing is the bell box should be situated where it's difficult to get at.
Which means changing it or the battery equally difficult?

The battery is fine for years.
Not all buildings have somewhere difficult to get to.


And anyone who feeds it with accessible cabling should be shot. ;-)


crowbar, rip box off wall cut wires and one that needs power from the
panel goes quiet.


Both SABs and SCBs should still ring if ripped from the wall.

It would also set of the internal alarm and any other bell boxes.

It's also a good bet that it would also set off an alarm signal to a
monitoring company.

BTW cutting the telephone wires on a proper monitored system also
actives the monitoring company.

Mind you opening one door without first closing another door on an unset
alarm can also set of a silent alarm in some houses BTDTGTTS. The police
were there in about 3 minutes.



--
Adam

ARW wrote:

A SAB's siren is powered via the control panel and the SCB's siren is
powered via it's internal battery.

0V is normally applied to the bell terminal on both to activate the siren.

The removal of 12v to either will activate the tamper and the siren will
sound due it's internal batteries.

Given the bell-box is outside and difficult to reach, you'd expect them
to be more likely to have a dead battery, but I suppose in that case the
sounder wouldn't sound* after a power cut, so I assume most of the ones
causing nuisance have a dead internal panel battery?

[*] actually there was one last year that sounded like it was being
strangled/drowned when it went off, could have been the remnants of the
bell-box battery.

On Thu, 10 Oct 2019 06:23:35 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Not here

You certainly are not all there, you abnormal trolling senile cretin from
Oz!

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On 09/10/2019 21:10, Andy Burns wrote:
ARW wrote:

A SAB's siren is powered via the control panel and the SCB's siren is
powered via it's internal battery.

0V is normally applied to the bell terminal on both to activate the
siren.

The removal of 12v to either will activate the tamper and the siren
will sound due it's internal batteries.

Given the bell-box is outside and difficult to reach, you'd expect them
to be more likely to have a dead battery, but I suppose in that case the
sounder wouldn't sound* after a power cut, so I assume most of the ones
causing nuisance have a dead internal panel battery?


[*] actually there was one last year that sounded like it was being
strangled/drowned when it went off, could have been the remnants of the
bell-box battery.

Yes, a dead internal battery is almost certainly the problem.

But bell boxes seldom use SLAs as their back up power.


--
Adam

On 09/10/2019 16:50, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
And the CO2 and other stuff when they catch fire :-)

Apparently some EU countries have special mobile tanks to
dump an entire Tesla car into and flood it, because those
Lithium batteries are sods to put out after a vehicle fire.

water of course makes it worse.


And a full tank of petrol is safe as houses? ;-)


Having had a full tank of petrol fall off a car (rust around the tank) I
don't think its very dangerous.
I left the car with the tank under it still attached by the fuel line to
phone the AA.
When I got back someone had chucked three fag ends in the petrol on the
ground.

On 09/10/2019 17:20, Steve Walker wrote:
On 09/10/2019 13:50, Tim+ wrote:
dennis@home wrote:
On 09/10/2019 12:53, R D S wrote:
On 07/10/2019 05:30, Andy Burns wrote:

People seem to think this is normal/acceptable ...

Yep.

A housing estate was built around our small row of terraces about 12
years ago.

For whatever reason (Faulty? Windows open? Pets left in? Insensibly
placed sensors? Power outages?), I can't remember the last time I went
more than a few hours without hearing an alarm wail.

Sometimes just for a couple of minutes, sometimes all day/night.

Makes me dread summer.

If one sounds for more than 20 minutes you can get the council to
silence it, and bill the owner for doing so.

How will they silence it? Long ladder and a can of squirty foam?
Personally I dont think councils would put workers lives at risk
(working
at height) just to deal with a self limiting nuisance. I could be wrong
though.

It is a requirement for owners of properties with alarms to register
them with the police and nominate two keyholders. Most people probably
don't, but report the alarm to the police and request that they contact
the keyholders. If it turns out (most likely) that they have not
nominated any, reporting a noise nuisance (not as a one off) to the
council and pointing out the lack of nominated keyholders may get them
to at least contact the owners and make threats of action.

SteveW

since when?

On 09/10/2019 21:42, dennis@home wrote:
On 09/10/2019 17:20, Steve Walker wrote:
On 09/10/2019 13:50, Tim+ wrote:
dennis@home wrote:
On 09/10/2019 12:53, R D S wrote:
On 07/10/2019 05:30, Andy Burns wrote:

People seem to think this is normal/acceptable ...

Yep.

A housing estate was built around our small row of terraces about 12
years ago.

For whatever reason (Faulty? Windows open? Pets left in? Insensibly
placed sensors? Power outages?), I can't remember the last time I went
more than a few hours without hearing an alarm wail.

Sometimes just for a couple of minutes, sometimes all day/night.

Makes me dread summer.

If one sounds for more than 20 minutes you can get the council to
silence it, and bill the owner for doing so.

How will they silence it? Long ladder and a can of squirty foam?
Personally I dont think councils would put workers lives at risk
(working
at height) just to deal with a self limiting nuisance. I could be wrong
though.

It is a requirement for owners of properties with alarms to register
them with the police and nominate two keyholders. Most people probably
don't, but report the alarm to the police and request that they
contact the keyholders. If it turns out (most likely) that they have
not nominated any, reporting a noise nuisance (not as a one off) to
the council and pointing out the lack of nominated keyholders may get
them to at least contact the owners and make threats of action.

SteveW

since when?

It was certainly that way, right back in the mid-90s - I got the form
needed back then. In fact, I've quite likely still got a copy somewhere.

Apparently, it has changed a bit due to "THE CLEAN NEIGHBOURHOODS AND
ENVIRONMENT ACT 2005" which transferred such powers to the council and
it is now up to them whether an area is designated as a zone where a
(single) keyholder must be named.

SteveW

On Wednesday, 9 October 2019 21:00:38 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 09/10/2019 12:33, dennis@home wrote:
On 09/10/2019 10:26, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* dennis@home wrote:
On 08/10/2019 11:20, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â*Â* alan_m wrote:
My bell box has a rechargeable battery that is also trickle charged
in my wired system via the alarm panel. My bell box also has red
flashing LEDs so a self contained non-rechargeable battery may not
last that long.

The tamper circuit in a bell box is often a spring loaded mechanical
switch which when the box is removed from the wall is activated.

I thought the bell box battery is only there so it will sound if it or
the wiring to it is tampered with. Under other circumstances, the
panel supplies the ringing volts to it - either from mains or its
battery.


Self Actuating Bells do not ring whenÂ* voltage is supplied from the
panel. The 12v from the panel stops them ringing and charges the
battery.

OK.

When an alarm condition exists the 12V is removed and they bell rings
until it comes back or the battery goes flat or if its a modern one a
timer expires.


Only cheap and nasty DIY alarms need 12V to operate the bell.
If you have one then get rid of it as it takes seconds to cut the wires
and then there is no external bell.

But if you remove the 12v the sounder sounds?

It does on a decent one.


No expert on alarm internals since I've only ever followed a wiring
diagram. But with your method, it would mean the sounder no longer works
if the internal battery is kaput?

That's why you can test them.

Its how all the bell boxes on banks work so it can't be the worst way.
No banks use one that rings when it is powered by 12v in an alarm
condition.

I have actually installed some for Chubb alarms but it was a long time
ago and I quit as I didn't like the training bloke as he was getting
things wrong about mains and didn't like being corrected.

It was my first proper job before I moved the GEC telecomms.


The old fashioned strobes may be powered from the box, mine are, they
take too much power for the battery.

Its not the same 12V that operates the rest of the box.

Thing is the bell box should be situated where it's difficult to get at.

On 10/10/2019 07:49, polygonum_on_google wrote:
On Wednesday, 9 October 2019 21:00:38 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 09/10/2019 12:33, dennis@home wrote:
On 09/10/2019 10:26, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* dennis@home wrote:
On 08/10/2019 11:20, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â*Â* alan_m wrote:
My bell box has a rechargeable battery that is also trickle charged
in my wired system via the alarm panel. My bell box also has red
flashing LEDs so a self contained non-rechargeable battery may not
last that long.

The tamper circuit in a bell box is often a spring loaded mechanical
switch which when the box is removed from the wall is activated.

I thought the bell box battery is only there so it will sound if it or
the wiring to it is tampered with. Under other circumstances, the
panel supplies the ringing volts to it - either from mains or its
battery.


Self Actuating Bells do not ring whenÂ* voltage is supplied from the
panel. The 12v from the panel stops them ringing and charges the
battery.

OK.

When an alarm condition exists the 12V is removed and they bell rings
until it comes back or the battery goes flat or if its a modern one a
timer expires.


Only cheap and nasty DIY alarms need 12V to operate the bell.
If you have one then get rid of it as it takes seconds to cut the wires
and then there is no external bell.

But if you remove the 12v the sounder sounds?

It does on a decent one.


No expert on alarm internals since I've only ever followed a wiring
diagram. But with your method, it would mean the sounder no longer works
if the internal battery is kaput?

That's why you can test them.

Its how all the bell boxes on banks work so it can't be the worst way.
No banks use one that rings when it is powered by 12v in an alarm
condition.

I have actually installed some for Chubb alarms but it was a long time
ago and I quit as I didn't like the training bloke as he was getting
things wrong about mains and didn't like being corrected.

It was my first proper job before I moved the GEC telecomms.


The old fashioned strobes may be powered from the box, mine are, they
take too much power for the battery.

Its not the same 12V that operates the rest of the box.

Thing is the bell box should be situated where it's difficult to get at.
Which means changing it or the battery equally difficult?

The battery is fine for years.
Not all buildings have somewhere difficult to get to.


And anyone who feeds it with accessible cabling should be shot. ;-)


crowbar, rip box off wall cut wires and one that needs power from the
panel goes quiet.


Both SABs and SCBs should still ring if ripped from the wall.

It would also set of the internal alarm and any other bell boxes.

I though high density PU foam was de-rigueur for that these days.

It's also a good bet that it would also set off an alarm signal to a
monitoring company.

BTW cutting the telephone wires on a proper monitored system also
actives the monitoring company.

Mind you opening one door without first closing another door on an unset
alarm can also set of a silent alarm in some houses BTDTGTTS. The police
were there in about 3 minutes.

How will that work when it becomes snap the fibre?

Same way if monitoring sends a ping and doesn't get a response. They try
to ring the alarm contact number(s) and if no response (or the duress
code is given) a priority police visit.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

In article ,
Steve Walker wrote:
On 09/10/2019 16:50, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
And the CO2 and other stuff when they catch fire :-)

Apparently some EU countries have special mobile tanks to
dump an entire Tesla car into and flood it, because those
Lithium batteries are sods to put out after a vehicle fire.

water of course makes it worse.


And a full tank of petrol is safe as houses? ;-)

Relatively, probably. Even with cars that are well on fire, only a small
proportion ever have the petrol tank go.

But on nearly every car crash you see on TV, the whole thing explodes into
bits? ;-)

Electric car fires are quite
likely to be battery fires in the first place and are then very
difficult to deal with.

Have you figures to support this 'quite likely'? And why would they be
more likely to burst into flames than other battery devices?
Everything has a risk. Like a diesel spill killing a motor cyclist.

--
*Certain frogs can be frozen solid, then thawed, and survive *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
On 09/10/2019 16:50, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
And the CO2 and other stuff when they catch fire :-)

Apparently some EU countries have special mobile tanks to
dump an entire Tesla car into and flood it, because those
Lithium batteries are sods to put out after a vehicle fire.

water of course makes it worse.


And a full tank of petrol is safe as houses? ;-)


Having had a full tank of petrol fall off a car (rust around the tank) I
don't think its very dangerous.
I left the car with the tank under it still attached by the fuel line to
phone the AA.
When I got back someone had chucked three fag ends in the petrol on the
ground.

Does that come under the heading of every electric vehicle involved in an
accident will burst into flames, but petrol cars never do?

--
*Your kid may be an honours student, but you're still an idiot.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 09/10/2019 23:33, Steve Walker wrote:
On 09/10/2019 21:42, dennis@home wrote:
On 09/10/2019 17:20, Steve Walker wrote:
On 09/10/2019 13:50, Tim+ wrote:
dennis@home wrote:
On 09/10/2019 12:53, R D S wrote:
On 07/10/2019 05:30, Andy Burns wrote:

People seem to think this is normal/acceptable ...

Yep.

A housing estate was built around our small row of terraces about 12
years ago.

For whatever reason (Faulty? Windows open? Pets left in? Insensibly
placed sensors? Power outages?), I can't remember the last time I
went
more than a few hours without hearing an alarm wail.

Sometimes just for a couple of minutes, sometimes all day/night.

Makes me dread summer.

If one sounds for more than 20 minutes you can get the council to
silence it, and bill the owner for doing so.

How will they silence it? Long ladder and a can of squirty foam?
Personally I dont think councils would put workers lives at risk
(working
at height) just to deal with a self limiting nuisance. I could be wrong
though.

It is a requirement for owners of properties with alarms to register
them with the police and nominate two keyholders. Most people
probably don't, but report the alarm to the police and request that
they contact the keyholders. If it turns out (most likely) that they
have not nominated any, reporting a noise nuisance (not as a one off)
to the council and pointing out the lack of nominated keyholders may
get them to at least contact the owners and make threats of action.

SteveW

since when?

It was certainly that way, right back in the mid-90s - I got the form
needed back then. In fact, I've quite likely still got a copy somewhere.

Apparently, it has changed a bit due to "THE CLEAN NEIGHBOURHOODS AND
ENVIRONMENT ACT 2005" which transferred such powers to the council and
it is now up to them whether an area is designated as a zone where a
(single) keyholder must be named.

SteveW


I think you will find there is no requirement to register a DIY alarm.
There isn't any need to register any alarm that doesn't communicate with
the outside world by e.g. phone.

There is a requirement to register one that is monitored or auto dials
the police. There are also servicing requirements for such a system.

On 10/10/2019 07:49, polygonum_on_google wrote:
On Wednesday, 9 October 2019 21:00:38 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 09/10/2019 12:33, dennis@home wrote:
On 09/10/2019 10:26, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* dennis@home wrote:
On 08/10/2019 11:20, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â*Â* alan_m wrote:
My bell box has a rechargeable battery that is also trickle charged
in my wired system via the alarm panel. My bell box also has red
flashing LEDs so a self contained non-rechargeable battery may not
last that long.

The tamper circuit in a bell box is often a spring loaded mechanical
switch which when the box is removed from the wall is activated.

I thought the bell box battery is only there so it will sound if it or
the wiring to it is tampered with. Under other circumstances, the
panel supplies the ringing volts to it - either from mains or its
battery.


Self Actuating Bells do not ring whenÂ* voltage is supplied from the
panel. The 12v from the panel stops them ringing and charges the
battery.

OK.

When an alarm condition exists the 12V is removed and they bell rings
until it comes back or the battery goes flat or if its a modern one a
timer expires.


Only cheap and nasty DIY alarms need 12V to operate the bell.
If you have one then get rid of it as it takes seconds to cut the wires
and then there is no external bell.

But if you remove the 12v the sounder sounds?

It does on a decent one.


No expert on alarm internals since I've only ever followed a wiring
diagram. But with your method, it would mean the sounder no longer works
if the internal battery is kaput?

That's why you can test them.

Its how all the bell boxes on banks work so it can't be the worst way.
No banks use one that rings when it is powered by 12v in an alarm
condition.

I have actually installed some for Chubb alarms but it was a long time
ago and I quit as I didn't like the training bloke as he was getting
things wrong about mains and didn't like being corrected.

It was my first proper job before I moved the GEC telecomms.


The old fashioned strobes may be powered from the box, mine are, they
take too much power for the battery.

Its not the same 12V that operates the rest of the box.

Thing is the bell box should be situated where it's difficult to get at.
Which means changing it or the battery equally difficult?

The battery is fine for years.
Not all buildings have somewhere difficult to get to.


And anyone who feeds it with accessible cabling should be shot. ;-)


crowbar, rip box off wall cut wires and one that needs power from the
panel goes quiet.


Both SABs and SCBs should still ring if ripped from the wall.

It would also set of the internal alarm and any other bell boxes.

It's also a good bet that it would also set off an alarm signal to a
monitoring company.

BTW cutting the telephone wires on a proper monitored system also
actives the monitoring company.

Mind you opening one door without first closing another door on an unset
alarm can also set of a silent alarm in some houses BTDTGTTS. The police
were there in about 3 minutes.

How will that work when it becomes snap the fibre?


The same way as the bell boxes work, you need an active signal to hold
the alarm off. Its why the damn things go off in a power cut, no power
in the panels battery to hold the no alarm condition.

On 09/10/2019 21:21, ARW wrote:
On 09/10/2019 21:10, Andy Burns wrote:
ARW wrote:

A SAB's siren is powered via the control panel and the SCB's siren is
powered via it's internal battery.

0V is normally applied to the bell terminal on both to activate the
siren.

The removal of 12v to either will activate the tamper and the siren
will sound due it's internal batteries.

Given the bell-box is outside and difficult to reach, you'd expect
them to be more likely to have a dead battery, but I suppose in that
case the sounder wouldn't sound* after a power cut, so I assume most
of the ones causing nuisance have a dead internal panel battery?


[*] actually there was one last year that sounded like it was being
strangled/drowned when it went off, could have been the remnants of
the bell-box battery.

Yes, a dead internal battery is almost certainly the problem.

But bell boxes seldom use SLAs as their back up power.



Usably a very small rechargeable pack.
About 6V in mine but less than AA in size.

On 10/10/2019 11:14, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Steve Walker wrote:
On 09/10/2019 16:50, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
And the CO2 and other stuff when they catch fire :-)

Apparently some EU countries have special mobile tanks to
dump an entire Tesla car into and flood it, because those
Lithium batteries are sods to put out after a vehicle fire.

water of course makes it worse.


And a full tank of petrol is safe as houses? ;-)

Relatively, probably. Even with cars that are well on fire, only a small
proportion ever have the petrol tank go.

But on nearly every car crash you see on TV, the whole thing explodes into
bits? ;-)

Electric car fires are quite
likely to be battery fires in the first place and are then very
difficult to deal with.

Have you figures to support this 'quite likely'? And why would they be
more likely to burst into flames than other battery devices?
Everything has a risk. Like a diesel spill killing a motor cyclist.


Diesel spills don't kill motorcyclist, motorcyclists kill themselves in
many cases.
They appear to think they can take bends at the same speed as a car when
in reality they don't have a chance on public roads.
Cars stick to the roads far better than motorcycles and its not as
dangerous if they over do it.
Roads are pretty unpredictable as far as friction is concerned and a
small bump will throw a motorcycle off but have virtually zero effect on
a car, especially one with working stability control.

On 10/10/2019 11:18, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
On 09/10/2019 16:50, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
And the CO2 and other stuff when they catch fire :-)

Apparently some EU countries have special mobile tanks to
dump an entire Tesla car into and flood it, because those
Lithium batteries are sods to put out after a vehicle fire.

water of course makes it worse.


And a full tank of petrol is safe as houses? ;-)


Having had a full tank of petrol fall off a car (rust around the tank) I
don't think its very dangerous.
I left the car with the tank under it still attached by the fuel line to
phone the AA.
When I got back someone had chucked three fag ends in the petrol on the
ground.

Does that come under the heading of every electric vehicle involved in an
accident will burst into flames, but petrol cars never do?


There has to be an ignition source for petrol and diesel.
The battery is an ignition source in its own right. Just puncturing a
LiIon battery can make it explode.

Even in the US with the cars that were burning after being rear ended it
was all of them that burst into flames, just a few out of the hundreds
of crashes.

Most car fires were cause in the engine compartment by the hydraulic
fluid dripping on the exhaust manifold. Petrol just evaporated
instantly, the hydraulic fluid stuck to it and got hot enough to ignite.

I don't know if modern fluid does the same but there doesn't appear to
be as many fires these days despite there being more cars.

In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
I think you will find there is no requirement to register a DIY alarm.
There isn't any need to register any alarm that doesn't communicate with
the outside world by e.g. phone.

Mine has an STD which dials my mobile phone. Nothing in the instructions
saying it has to be registered.

--
*Never test the depth of the water with both feet.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
Most car fires were cause in the engine compartment by the hydraulic
fluid dripping on the exhaust manifold. Petrol just evaporated
instantly, the hydraulic fluid stuck to it and got hot enough to ignite.

Have you got data for this hypothesis?

--
*Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 10/10/2019 14:11, dennis@home wrote:
On 09/10/2019 23:33, Steve Walker wrote:
On 09/10/2019 21:42, dennis@home wrote:
On 09/10/2019 17:20, Steve Walker wrote:
On 09/10/2019 13:50, Tim+ wrote:
dennis@home wrote:
On 09/10/2019 12:53, R D S wrote:
On 07/10/2019 05:30, Andy Burns wrote:

People seem to think this is normal/acceptable ...

Yep.

A housing estate was built around our small row of terraces about 12
years ago.

For whatever reason (Faulty? Windows open? Pets left in? Insensibly
placed sensors? Power outages?), I can't remember the last time I
went
more than a few hours without hearing an alarm wail.

Sometimes just for a couple of minutes, sometimes all day/night.

Makes me dread summer.

If one sounds for more than 20 minutes you can get the council to
silence it, and bill the owner for doing so.

How will they silence it? Long ladder and a can of squirty foam?
Personally I dont think councils would put workers lives at risk
(working
at height) just to deal with a self limiting nuisance. I could be
wrong
though.

It is a requirement for owners of properties with alarms to register
them with the police and nominate two keyholders. Most people
probably don't, but report the alarm to the police and request that
they contact the keyholders. If it turns out (most likely) that they
have not nominated any, reporting a noise nuisance (not as a one
off) to the council and pointing out the lack of nominated
keyholders may get them to at least contact the owners and make
threats of action.

SteveW

since when?

It was certainly that way, right back in the mid-90s - I got the form
needed back then. In fact, I've quite likely still got a copy somewhere.

Apparently, it has changed a bit due to "THE CLEAN NEIGHBOURHOODS AND
ENVIRONMENT ACT 2005" which transferred such powers to the council and
it is now up to them whether an area is designated as a zone where a
(single) keyholder must be named.

SteveW


I think you will find there is no requirement to register a DIY alarm.
There isn't any need to register any alarm that doesn't communicate with
the outside world by e.g. phone.

Yes there is. It is about noise nuisance - as stated in the act that I
have noted above.

SteveW

On 10/10/2019 23:14, Steve Walker wrote:
On 10/10/2019 14:11, dennis@home wrote:
On 09/10/2019 23:33, Steve Walker wrote:
On 09/10/2019 21:42, dennis@home wrote:
On 09/10/2019 17:20, Steve Walker wrote:
On 09/10/2019 13:50, Tim+ wrote:
dennis@home wrote:
On 09/10/2019 12:53, R D S wrote:
On 07/10/2019 05:30, Andy Burns wrote:

People seem to think this is normal/acceptable ...

Yep.

A housing estate was built around our small row of terraces
about 12
years ago.

For whatever reason (Faulty? Windows open? Pets left in? Insensibly
placed sensors? Power outages?), I can't remember the last time
I went
more than a few hours without hearing an alarm wail.

Sometimes just for a couple of minutes, sometimes all day/night.

Makes me dread summer.

If one sounds for more than 20 minutes you can get the council to
silence it, and bill the owner for doing so.

How will they silence it? Long ladder and a can of squirty foam?
Personally I dont think councils would put workers lives at risk
(working
at height) just to deal with a self limiting nuisance. I could be
wrong
though.

It is a requirement for owners of properties with alarms to
register them with the police and nominate two keyholders. Most
people probably don't, but report the alarm to the police and
request that they contact the keyholders. If it turns out (most
likely) that they have not nominated any, reporting a noise
nuisance (not as a one off) to the council and pointing out the
lack of nominated keyholders may get them to at least contact the
owners and make threats of action.

SteveW

since when?

It was certainly that way, right back in the mid-90s - I got the form
needed back then. In fact, I've quite likely still got a copy somewhere.

Apparently, it has changed a bit due to "THE CLEAN NEIGHBOURHOODS AND
ENVIRONMENT ACT 2005" which transferred such powers to the council
and it is now up to them whether an area is designated as a zone
where a (single) keyholder must be named.

SteveW


I think you will find there is no requirement to register a DIY alarm.
There isn't any need to register any alarm that doesn't communicate
with the outside world by e.g. phone.

Yes there is. It is about noise nuisance - as stated in the act that I
have noted above.

Do you know anyone that has registered a DIY alarm?


--
Adam

On 10/10/2019 23:20, ARW wrote:
On 10/10/2019 23:14, Steve Walker wrote:
On 10/10/2019 14:11, dennis@home wrote:
On 09/10/2019 23:33, Steve Walker wrote:
On 09/10/2019 21:42, dennis@home wrote:
On 09/10/2019 17:20, Steve Walker wrote:
On 09/10/2019 13:50, Tim+ wrote:
dennis@home wrote:
On 09/10/2019 12:53, R D S wrote:
On 07/10/2019 05:30, Andy Burns wrote:

People seem to think this is normal/acceptable ...

Yep.

A housing estate was built around our small row of terraces
about 12
years ago.

For whatever reason (Faulty? Windows open? Pets left in?
Insensibly
placed sensors? Power outages?), I can't remember the last time
I went
more than a few hours without hearing an alarm wail.

Sometimes just for a couple of minutes, sometimes all day/night.

Makes me dread summer.

If one sounds for more than 20 minutes you can get the council to
silence it, and bill the owner for doing so.

How will they silence it? Long ladder and a can of squirty foam?
Personally I dont think councils would put workers lives at risk
(working
at height) just to deal with a self limiting nuisance. I could be
wrong
though.

It is a requirement for owners of properties with alarms to
register them with the police and nominate two keyholders. Most
people probably don't, but report the alarm to the police and
request that they contact the keyholders. If it turns out (most
likely) that they have not nominated any, reporting a noise
nuisance (not as a one off) to the council and pointing out the
lack of nominated keyholders may get them to at least contact the
owners and make threats of action.

SteveW

since when?

It was certainly that way, right back in the mid-90s - I got the
form needed back then. In fact, I've quite likely still got a copy
somewhere.

Apparently, it has changed a bit due to "THE CLEAN NEIGHBOURHOODS
AND ENVIRONMENT ACT 2005" which transferred such powers to the
council and it is now up to them whether an area is designated as a
zone where a (single) keyholder must be named.

SteveW


I think you will find there is no requirement to register a DIY alarm.
There isn't any need to register any alarm that doesn't communicate
with the outside world by e.g. phone.

Yes there is. It is about noise nuisance - as stated in the act that I
have noted above.

Do you know anyone that has registered a DIY alarm?

As I said, it is unlikely that people do.

SteveW

In article ,
ARW wrote:
Yes there is. It is about noise nuisance - as stated in the act that I
have noted above.

Do you know anyone that has registered a DIY alarm?

Doubt they often cause any noise nuusance. Seems to be the ones installed
by cowboy 'pros' that give so many false alarms.

--
*Xerox and Wurlitzer will merge to market reproductive organs.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 10/10/2019 16:45, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
I think you will find there is no requirement to register a DIY alarm.
There isn't any need to register any alarm that doesn't communicate with
the outside world by e.g. phone.

Mine has an STD which dials my mobile phone. Nothing in the instructions
saying it has to be registered.


just don't set it to dial 999.

On 10/10/2019 23:14, Steve Walker wrote:
On 10/10/2019 14:11, dennis@home wrote:
On 09/10/2019 23:33, Steve Walker wrote:
On 09/10/2019 21:42, dennis@home wrote:
On 09/10/2019 17:20, Steve Walker wrote:
On 09/10/2019 13:50, Tim+ wrote:
dennis@home wrote:
On 09/10/2019 12:53, R D S wrote:
On 07/10/2019 05:30, Andy Burns wrote:

People seem to think this is normal/acceptable ...

Yep.

A housing estate was built around our small row of terraces
about 12
years ago.

For whatever reason (Faulty? Windows open? Pets left in? Insensibly
placed sensors? Power outages?), I can't remember the last time
I went
more than a few hours without hearing an alarm wail.

Sometimes just for a couple of minutes, sometimes all day/night.

Makes me dread summer.

If one sounds for more than 20 minutes you can get the council to
silence it, and bill the owner for doing so.

How will they silence it? Long ladder and a can of squirty foam?
Personally I dont think councils would put workers lives at risk
(working
at height) just to deal with a self limiting nuisance. I could be
wrong
though.

It is a requirement for owners of properties with alarms to
register them with the police and nominate two keyholders. Most
people probably don't, but report the alarm to the police and
request that they contact the keyholders. If it turns out (most
likely) that they have not nominated any, reporting a noise
nuisance (not as a one off) to the council and pointing out the
lack of nominated keyholders may get them to at least contact the
owners and make threats of action.

SteveW

since when?

It was certainly that way, right back in the mid-90s - I got the form
needed back then. In fact, I've quite likely still got a copy somewhere.

Apparently, it has changed a bit due to "THE CLEAN NEIGHBOURHOODS AND
ENVIRONMENT ACT 2005" which transferred such powers to the council
and it is now up to them whether an area is designated as a zone
where a (single) keyholder must be named.

SteveW


I think you will find there is no requirement to register a DIY alarm.
There isn't any need to register any alarm that doesn't communicate
with the outside world by e.g. phone.

Yes there is. It is about noise nuisance - as stated in the act that I
have noted above.

SteveW

There is no such requirement in England or Scotland or Wales, there may
be in some parts of Northern Ireland.

On 11/10/2019 15:34, dennis@home wrote:
On 10/10/2019 23:14, Steve Walker wrote:
On 10/10/2019 14:11, dennis@home wrote:
On 09/10/2019 23:33, Steve Walker wrote:
On 09/10/2019 21:42, dennis@home wrote:
On 09/10/2019 17:20, Steve Walker wrote:
On 09/10/2019 13:50, Tim+ wrote:
dennis@home wrote:
On 09/10/2019 12:53, R D S wrote:
On 07/10/2019 05:30, Andy Burns wrote:

People seem to think this is normal/acceptable ...

Yep.

A housing estate was built around our small row of terraces
about 12
years ago.

For whatever reason (Faulty? Windows open? Pets left in?
Insensibly
placed sensors? Power outages?), I can't remember the last time
I went
more than a few hours without hearing an alarm wail.

Sometimes just for a couple of minutes, sometimes all day/night.

Makes me dread summer.

If one sounds for more than 20 minutes you can get the council to
silence it, and bill the owner for doing so.

How will they silence it? Long ladder and a can of squirty foam?
Personally I dont think councils would put workers lives at risk
(working
at height) just to deal with a self limiting nuisance. I could be
wrong
though.

It is a requirement for owners of properties with alarms to
register them with the police and nominate two keyholders. Most
people probably don't, but report the alarm to the police and
request that they contact the keyholders. If it turns out (most
likely) that they have not nominated any, reporting a noise
nuisance (not as a one off) to the council and pointing out the
lack of nominated keyholders may get them to at least contact the
owners and make threats of action.

SteveW

since when?

It was certainly that way, right back in the mid-90s - I got the
form needed back then. In fact, I've quite likely still got a copy
somewhere.

Apparently, it has changed a bit due to "THE CLEAN NEIGHBOURHOODS
AND ENVIRONMENT ACT 2005" which transferred such powers to the
council and it is now up to them whether an area is designated as a
zone where a (single) keyholder must be named.

SteveW


I think you will find there is no requirement to register a DIY alarm.
There isn't any need to register any alarm that doesn't communicate
with the outside world by e.g. phone.

Yes there is. It is about noise nuisance - as stated in the act that I
have noted above.

SteveW

There is no such requirement in England or Scotland or Wales, there may
be in some parts of Northern Ireland.

It was in place when I fitted the alarm in 1993, I still have a copy of
the form somewhere, but likely in the loft.

Since then the legislation has changed and I have twice quoted the title
of the legislation "THE CLEAN NEIGHBOURHOODS AND ENVIRONMENT ACT 2005,"
which actually reduced the requirement (from two keyholders to one and
only in areas designated by councils), but has been in force in both
England (since 2006) and Wales (since 2006/2007).

SteveW

On 11/10/2019 19:28, Steve Walker wrote:

It was in place when I fitted the alarm in 1993, I still have a copy of
the form somewhere, but likely in the loft.

Since then the legislation has changed and I have twice quoted the title
of the legislation "THE CLEAN NEIGHBOURHOODS AND ENVIRONMENT ACT 2005,"
which actually reduced the requirement (from two keyholders to one and
only in areas designated by councils), but has been in force in both
England (since 2006) and Wales (since 2006/2007).

SteveW

Why not read it?

That allows councils to designate areas, it does not mean they exist.

On 11/10/2019 19:46, dennis@home wrote:
On 11/10/2019 19:28, Steve Walker wrote:

It was in place when I fitted the alarm in 1993, I still have a copy
of the form somewhere, but likely in the loft.

Since then the legislation has changed and I have twice quoted the
title of the legislation "THE CLEAN NEIGHBOURHOODS AND ENVIRONMENT ACT
2005," which actually reduced the requirement (from two keyholders to
one and only in areas designated by councils), but has been in force
in both England (since 2006) and Wales (since 2006/2007).

SteveW

Why not read it?

That allows councils to designate areas, it does not mean they exist.

The rules were in place here before that act. People are more annoyed
than ever by noise now, so it seems unlikely that no council anywhere
has implemented such an area. It is up the the householder to check
whether they are in such an area when they install an alarm.

SteveW

On 10/10/2019 14:11, dennis@home wrote:

There is a requirement to register one that is monitored or auto dials
the police. There are also servicing requirements for such a system.

I was under the impression that the Police required any alarm that
required response from them had to be via a third party monitoring
company.



--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 11/10/2019 00:15, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Doubt they often cause any noise nuusance. Seems to be the ones installed
by cowboy 'pros' that give so many false alarms.



These days most people will just ignore other peoples alarms going off
and always assume a false alarm. It may be better just to disable the
external sounder/bell and just leave the strobe lights. If someone has
broken into your hour unaware that there is an alarm then the internal
sounder fitted to the alarm panel/controller is likely to scare them off.

Whats more annoying are car alarms. At the junction of the road where I
live there is a mini Sainsburys corner shop with. At least once a day
someone will park up for that 5 minute visit and the car alarm will go
off. I sometimes suspect that its always the same car every day.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 11/10/2019 21:14, Steve Walker wrote:

The rules were in place here before that act. People are more annoyed
than ever by noise now, so it seems unlikely that no council anywhere
has implemented such an area. It is up the the householder to check
whether they are in such an area when they install an alarm.

Have legislation doesn't necessarily reduce or eliminate the noise
nuisance. Unless the alternative keyholder is a highly trusted near
neighbour the alarm will still go off and probably stop sounding by the
time that a designated key holder turns up. This is assuming that a home
alarm has been designed and set up for a sounding period of no more than
15 minutes. It also assumes that the alternative key holder knows how to
operate an alarm that that may not be familiar to them and that they
have been given the correct codes to disable the alarm.

It is very unlikely that the Police will turn up to a domestic alarm
unless it is being monitored by a third party monitoring company.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

"alan_m" wrote in message
...
On 11/10/2019 00:15, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Doubt they often cause any noise nuusance. Seems to be the ones installed
by cowboy 'pros' that give so many false alarms.

These days most people will just ignore other peoples alarms going off and
always assume a false alarm.

Thats not true here. All my neighbours apart from
the renters take an interest when an alarm goes
off and we often talk to each other about it. I am
usually the first to respond, but not always.

And we did that before some loony quite
literally burnt one of the neighbours houses
to the ground at 2am one morning.

It may be better just to disable the external sounder/bell and just leave
the strobe lights.

That wouldnt work here, most who can hear
the sounder wont be able to see the strobe
lights and that likely wouldnt wake anyone.

If someone has broken into your hour unaware that there is an alarm then
the internal sounder fitted to the alarm panel/controller is likely to
scare them off.

But so will a strobe and they are much more
likely to see that than the neighbours.

Whats more annoying are car alarms.

We dont get anywhere near as many of those going off.

At the junction of the road where I live there is a mini Sainsburys corner
shop with. At least once a day someone will park up for that 5 minute
visit and the car alarm will go off. I sometimes suspect that its always
the same car every day.

Never seen that here. I did manage to set my own car alarm off
when I managed to slam the door on the seatbelt buckle and
that triggered the alarm. And it wasnt at all obvious how to
cancel the alarm. Fortunately the manual was in the car and
I could look it up, but no one took any notice. That was on
the garage sale run and my car is so distinctive that most know
its my car and they would have realised that it wasnt a theft.

On Mon, 14 Oct 2019 20:30:27 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


These days most people will just ignore other peoples alarms going off and
always assume a false alarm.

That¢s not

NOBODY talked to you, senile Ozzie pest! LOL

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On 14/10/2019 08:29, alan_m wrote:
On 10/10/2019 14:11, dennis@home wrote:

There is a requirement to register one that is monitored or auto dials
the police. There are also servicing requirements for such a system.

I was under the impression that the Police required any alarm that
required response from them had to be via a third party monitoring company.

Yes, but that is a separate matter from noise nuisance.

SteveW

On 14/10/2019 08:42, alan_m wrote:
On 11/10/2019 00:15, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Doubt they often cause any noise nuusance. Seems to be the ones installed
by cowboy 'pros' that give so many false alarms.



These days most people will just ignore other peoples alarms going off
and always assume a false alarm.Â* It may be better just to disable the
external sounder/bell and just leave the strobe lights. If someone has
broken into your hour unaware that there is an alarm then the internal
sounder fitted to the alarm panel/controller is likely to scare them off.

Here there is one house alarm that goes off frequently and everyone
ignores. We all take a look if any other alarm goes off, as most hardly
ever do.

Whats more annoying are car alarms. At the junction of the road where I
live there is a mini Sainsburys corner shop with. At least once a day
someone will park up for that 5 minute visit and the car alarm will go
off. I sometimes suspect that its always the same car every day.

When I still lived at my parents there was a house on the next road,
where the driver was incapable of getting into his car without setting
the alarm off - every weekday, 1 to 1-1/2 hours before I was due to get
up

Our own car alarm went off about once every couple of months and we
could not find out why, but we dared not disable it, as the same model
car at the house opposite was stolen 3 times (someone wanting to get
home after the buses had stopped we presumed, as it was left in the same
place each time, undamaged and with nothing missing). On the 4th
occasion, the owner had fitted a crook-lock and although the car stayed
put, he then had to pay for damage done when they tried to remove it!

SteveW

On 14/10/2019 08:57, alan_m wrote:
On 11/10/2019 21:14, Steve Walker wrote:

The rules were in place here before that act. People are more annoyed
than ever by noise now, so it seems unlikely that no council anywhere
has implemented such an area. It is up the the householder to check
whether they are in such an area when they install an alarm.

Have legislation doesn't necessarily reduce or eliminate the noise
nuisance. Unless the alternative keyholder is a highly trusted near
neighbour the alarm will still go off and probably stop sounding by the
time that a designated key holder turns up.

Yes, but many alarms re-trigger multiple times, so the nuisance can go
on for hours and without a registered keyholder, no-one knows who to
contact.

This is assuming that a home
alarm has been designed and set up for a sounding period of no more than
15 minutes.

20 minutes is the maximum allowed and there are probably few alarms left
that don't conform to that.

It also assumes that the alternative key holder knows how to
operate an alarm that that may not be familiar to them and that they
have been given the correct codes to disable the alarm.

In our case, my parents, who can be here within 5 minutes, have a key
(as they feed our cats when we are away and generally look after things
for us), have the same model of alarm and with one of our two codes the
same as the code on their alarm.

It is very unlikely that the Police will turn up to a domestic alarm
unless it is being monitored by a third party monitoring company.

They haven't done for years. The value (as long as you have an alarm
that doesn't give loads of false alarms) is that neighbours do look.

SteveW