On 03/10/2019 11:23, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
Well that's TNP saying one of the main reasons claimed for brexit,
being able to have different standards for different markets, out of
the window. Remain voters have said this from the beginning.

Rubbish. Whether to do that or not, once we are out, becomes a
commercial matter for the company involved, rather than purposelessly
being forced upon them.

Good thinking. Let's go back to when every country used their own colours
for mains flexes. Freedom of choice is more important than common sense.

To be fair the change to colours for fixed wiring was a stupid one for
the UK. Blue is neutral in the current system and a live (3ph) under the
old, causing huge risk of confusion on industrial sites.

There was no need to standardise the colours for fixed wiring across the
EU and flex/portable wiring had already been standardised.

Fixed wiring is a good example of where sticking to our own standard
would have been more sensible.

SteveW

On 03/10/2019 22:28, Steve Walker wrote:
On 03/10/2019 11:23, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* Tim Streater wrote:
Well that's TNP saying one of the main reasons claimed for brexit,
being able to have different standards for different markets, out of
the window. Remain voters have said this from the beginning.

Rubbish. Whether to do that or not, once we are out, becomes a
commercial matter for the company involved, rather than purposelessly
being forced upon them.

Good thinking. Let's go back to when every country used their own colours
for mains flexes. Freedom of choice is more important than common sense.

To be fair the change to colours for fixed wiring was a stupid one for
the UK. Blue is neutral in the current system and a live (3ph) under the
old, causing huge risk of confusion on industrial sites.

There was no need to standardise the colours for fixed wiring across the
EU and flex/portable wiring had already been standardised.

Fixed wiring is a good example of where sticking to our own standard
would have been more sensible.


Exactly. It was an example of 'harmonisation for it's own sake - a Bored
Brussels Bureaucrat needing to justify his existence



SteveW


--
Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early
twenty-first centurys developed world went into hysterical panic over a
globally average temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and,
on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer
projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to
contemplate a rollback of the industrial age.

Richard Lindzen

In article ,
Steve Walker wrote:
To be fair the change to colours for fixed wiring was a stupid one for
the UK. Blue is neutral in the current system and a live (3ph) under the
old, causing huge risk of confusion on industrial sites.

Those who don't understand wiring colours shouldn't be allowed near
electricity - let alone 3 phase.

--
*If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple of payments *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 03/10/2019 22:28, Steve Walker wrote:
On 03/10/2019 11:23, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* Tim Streater wrote:
Well that's TNP saying one of the main reasons claimed for brexit,
being able to have different standards for different markets, out of
the window. Remain voters have said this from the beginning.

Rubbish. Whether to do that or not, once we are out, becomes a
commercial matter for the company involved, rather than purposelessly
being forced upon them.

Good thinking. Let's go back to when every country used their own colours
for mains flexes. Freedom of choice is more important than common sense.

To be fair the change to colours for fixed wiring was a stupid one for
the UK. Blue is neutral in the current system and a live (3ph) under the
old, causing huge risk of confusion on industrial sites.

There was no need to standardise the colours for fixed wiring across the
EU and flex/portable wiring had already been standardised.

Of course there was, how would British electricians get jobs on the
continent if everything was different to what they had been trained to do?


Fixed wiring is a good example of where sticking to our own standard
would have been more sensible.

We didn't change much.

In article , dennis@home
wrote:
On 03/10/2019 22:28, Steve Walker wrote:
On 03/10/2019 11:23, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Tim
Streater wrote:
Well that's TNP saying one of the main reasons claimed for brexit,
being able to have different standards for different markets, out of
the window. Remain voters have said this from the beginning.

Rubbish. Whether to do that or not, once we are out, becomes a
commercial matter for the company involved, rather than purposelessly
being forced upon them.

Good thinking. Let's go back to when every country used their own
colours for mains flexes. Freedom of choice is more important than
common sense.

To be fair the change to colours for fixed wiring was a stupid one for
the UK. Blue is neutral in the current system and a live (3ph) under
the old, causing huge risk of confusion on industrial sites.

There was no need to standardise the colours for fixed wiring across
the EU and flex/portable wiring had already been standardised.

Of course there was, how would British electricians get jobs on the
continent if everything was different to what they had been trained to do?


Fixed wiring is a good example of where sticking to our own standard
would have been more sensible.

We didn't change much.

really ?

Change 1 (Flexibles): Red Black Green became Brown Blue and Green/yellow

Change 2 (permanent installation): Red, Blue, Yellow became Brown, Black,
Grey with Neutral going from Black to Blue

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Steve Walker wrote:
To be fair the change to colours for fixed wiring was a stupid one for
the UK. Blue is neutral in the current system and a live (3ph) under the
old, causing huge risk of confusion on industrial sites.

Those who don't understand wiring colours shouldn't be allowed near
electricity - let alone 3 phase.

You can know both wiring schemes, but in the heat of the moment you may get
confused when one colour changes its meaning from live to neutral; at least
with the change in the colours for single-phase wiring, red and black were
not reused for other purposes in the new colours, but instead totally new
colours brown and blue were used instead.


The new wiring colours could have been made a lot better: I'd go for

brown-and-red, brown-and-blue, brown-and-yellow for the three lives

blue for neutral


This would preserve the association between brown and live, while allowing
the three phases to be distinguished by the secondary colour that was used
before.

Using black and grey for two different phases is asking for trouble, if the
grey insulation goes a bit dark and the black fades a bit light. Our central
heating system was wired up with 3-phase cable between the timer and the
boiler, for some bizarre reason, and he'd used black and grey for "CH on"
and "HW on", and the two colours were virtually indistinguishable. When I
was replacing the timer with a Hive controller, I stuck labels on the wires
to make it clear which was which, but when I was removing the Hive
controller and replacing it with the old one, when we were about to move
house, the labels ripped off so I had to guess - wire it up and see whether
the radiators started to get hot when the CH button was pressed, or whether
it needed the HW button to achieve this. Inevitably I got it the wrong way
round and had to swap them round. I should have used a spot of tippex on one
of the wires, rather than little labels stuck on with sellotape ;-)

In article ,
Steve Walker wrote:
There was no need to standardise the colours for fixed wiring across the
EU and flex/portable wiring had already been standardised.

Just why would any sensible person want different colours between fixed
wiring and flex?

Fixed wiring is a good example of where sticking to our own standard
would have been more sensible.

Only if you want others to be confused.

--
*Age is a very high price to pay for maturity.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 04/10/2019 12:03, dennis@home wrote:
On 03/10/2019 22:28, Steve Walker wrote:
On 03/10/2019 11:23, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* Tim Streater wrote:
Well that's TNP saying one of the main reasons claimed for brexit,
being able to have different standards for different markets, out of
the window. Remain voters have said this from the beginning.

Rubbish. Whether to do that or not, once we are out, becomes a
commercial matter for the company involved, rather than purposelessly
being forced upon them.

Good thinking. Let's go back to when every country used their own
colours
for mains flexes. Freedom of choice is more important than common sense.

To be fair the change to colours for fixed wiring was a stupid one for
the UK. Blue is neutral in the current system and a live (3ph) under
the old, causing huge risk of confusion on industrial sites.

There was no need to standardise the colours for fixed wiring across
the EU and flex/portable wiring had already been standardised.

Of course there was, how would British electricians get jobs on the
continent if everything was different to what they had been trained to do?

Pre-standardisation, I managed perfectly well to design a control panel
to Irish standards; which was build and internally wired in the UK and
shipped to Ireland, where I supervised its installation.

I also did many panels to American standards (used all over the world in
Oil and Gas), British Standards, German Standards, the Standards of
various middle-Eastern and Asian countries, etc. What is the problem?

Fixed wiring is a good example of where sticking to our own standard
would have been more sensible.

We didn't change much.

We ended up with huge numbers of mixed installations in industrial
settings, with colours that have different meanings between new and old
- a recipe for mistakes, requiring labelling of various parts to attempt
to remove ambiguity.

SteveW

On 04/10/2019 12:25, charles wrote:
In article , dennis@home
wrote:
On 03/10/2019 22:28, Steve Walker wrote:
On 03/10/2019 11:23, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Tim
Streater wrote:
Well that's TNP saying one of the main reasons claimed for brexit,
being able to have different standards for different markets, out of
the window. Remain voters have said this from the beginning.

Rubbish. Whether to do that or not, once we are out, becomes a
commercial matter for the company involved, rather than purposelessly
being forced upon them.

Good thinking. Let's go back to when every country used their own
colours for mains flexes. Freedom of choice is more important than
common sense.

To be fair the change to colours for fixed wiring was a stupid one for
the UK. Blue is neutral in the current system and a live (3ph) under
the old, causing huge risk of confusion on industrial sites.

There was no need to standardise the colours for fixed wiring across
the EU and flex/portable wiring had already been standardised.

Of course there was, how would British electricians get jobs on the
continent if everything was different to what they had been trained to do?


Fixed wiring is a good example of where sticking to our own standard
would have been more sensible.

We didn't change much.

really ?

Change 1 (Flexibles): Red Black Green became Brown Blue and Green/yellow

I can live with that one. On the whole, the colours are not so
important. You can't be confused by the new and the old colours and you
are usually connecting one end to the equipment and the other to a plug
- each with easily identifiable terminals.

Change 2 (permanent installation): Red, Blue, Yellow became Brown, Black,
Grey with Neutral going from Black to Blue

That's the big one - very easy to confuse an old blue live in a terminal
box and a new blue neutral. As mentioned elsewhere, confusion between a
black and a grey, due to colour changes over time, dirt or poor lighting
are another problem.

SteveW

On 04/10/2019 16:21, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Steve Walker wrote:
There was no need to standardise the colours for fixed wiring across the
EU and flex/portable wiring had already been standardised.

Just why would any sensible person want different colours between fixed
wiring and flex?

Fixed wiring is a good example of where sticking to our own standard
would have been more sensible.

Only if you want others to be confused.

So you don't think it is confusing for 3-phase installations with a mix
of existing and new circuits to have blue as both a live and a neutral
and black as both a neutral and a live? Often in the same circuit as
parts are replaced or extended.

It was easy enough to deal with the old colours for fixed and the new
for flexible/portable, whereas the current mix of colours in 3-phase
installations frequently does cause problems and requires labelling all
over the place to try and prevent confusion.

There was *no* good reason to change the colours for fixed installations.

SteveW

In article ,
Steve Walker wrote:
Change 2 (permanent installation): Red, Blue, Yellow became Brown,
Black, Grey with Neutral going from Black to Blue

That's the big one - very easy to confuse an old blue live in a terminal
box and a new blue neutral. As mentioned elsewhere, confusion between a
black and a grey, due to colour changes over time, dirt or poor lighting
are another problem.

Given we live by exporting, why make things difficult for cable
manufacturers having to provide different spec cable colours for each
country?

Any local problems with unifying colours is transitory.

I'm quite open to the suggestion that the actual colours used now may not
be ideal. But I'm sure lots of thought went into that process. And not
just a gut reaction.

--
*Frankly, scallop, I don't give a clam

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Steve Walker wrote:
Only if you want others to be confused.

So you don't think it is confusing for 3-phase installations with a mix
of existing and new circuits to have blue as both a live and a neutral
and black as both a neutral and a live? Often in the same circuit as
parts are replaced or extended.

When you start out with countries using very different standards for wire
colours, there is bound to be this sort of thing. If not in the UK, then
elsewhere. So it is bound to be a compromise somewhere in that
standardised area.

I'm surprised it gives you so much trouble. After all on a standard
domestic lighting circuit it was the norm to use the colour marked as a
neutral as the switch return. Hopefully sleeved to denote this - but most
usually not. Same with triple and earth. Used to a thermostat which needed
a neutral.

--
*If your feet smell and your nose runs, you're built upside down.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 05/10/2019 00:02, Steve Walker wrote:
We ended up with huge numbers of mixed installations in industrial
settings, with colours that have different meanings between new and old
- a recipe for mistakes, requiring labelling of various parts to attempt
to remove ambiguity.

Some hospital trusts even tried to bar the use of 'new' colours
in hospitals wired with 'old' colours.

In article ,
Andrew wrote:
On 05/10/2019 00:02, Steve Walker wrote:
We ended up with huge numbers of mixed installations in industrial
settings, with colours that have different meanings between new and
old - a recipe for mistakes, requiring labelling of various parts to
attempt to remove ambiguity.

Some hospital trusts even tried to bar the use of 'new' colours
in hospitals wired with 'old' colours.

Not unusual for some trusts to include idiots. Rather like councils. The
snag with appointing amateurs.

--
*Great groups from little icons grow *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.