....and much better air in here!

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 00:05:40 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 05 Oct 2019 22:15:34 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sat, 05 Oct 2019 21:17:00 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 23:46:55 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 19:17:46 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 09:41:25 +0100, PeterC

wrote:

On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 19:29:42 +0100, Robert wrote:

On 03/10/2019 14:29, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why do LEDs generate heat? I want a technical answer not
"because
they're inefficient". And will we ever make them more
efficient?
Besides the inefficiencies in the LED itself which other posters
have
covered, LED lamps have some current regulation or power supply
built-in
which will not be 100% efficient and thus generates heat.

If my meter is correct, all the LEDs that I've measured have a PF
of
approx.
0.5 - not a good start.
One TV has a PF of 0.97 and is barely warm over the PSU; another
is
0.86
and
is luke warm. The real warmth in the 2nd. one is around the
inputs
though -
SPDIF, USB and HDMI.

Is power factor that important? In a domestic building, you are
not
billed for power factor. I might have a capacitive load, but my
neighbour
has an inductive load, so they even out.

Most neighbours don't have much long term inductive load anymore.

I don't see why it would have reduced.

It has anyway.

For what reason

To get better motors, direct drive etc with washing machines for
example.

What has direct drive got to do with power factor?

They arent the old induction motors with the power factor they had.

I thought all motors created the same inductive load,

But not necessarily on the mains, that's what matters
with the more sophisticated motors used in stuff like
washing machines etc now.

Are they fed by altered AC or by DC?

and had to be compensated for if you wanted unity PF.

There is no point in the cost of doing that with domestic appliances.

I know, I just thought that was the only way to remove the PF of any motor.

Direct drive motors are interesting - I once had a very cheap turntable
that said "direct drive", so I guess it's not always a good thing?

There's a big difference between a turntable motor and
one in a top loading washing machine which needs to
do a variety of different things when washing, adjitating
and spin drying at different speeds.

I know. Which makes me think it's important for a washing machine. But
on a turntable, it has to be a very precise speed or the music sounds
****. It's the last place I'd think of putting one.

Its done with those to avoid belts and the downsides with those over time.

I had a Garrard turntable that was decades old and I think that was belt drive. Although it never went wrong so I never had cause to look inside.

Actually I think I remembered wrong, the cheap stereo might have said
"belt drive" on the front. Direct drive could have been the decent one.

Very likely.

From Wikipedia: "Usually motors are built to achieve maximum torque at
high rotational speeds, usually 1500 or 3000 rpm."
I thought motors produced more torque when slower - which is why they
burn out when jammed.

Not relevant to what is being discussed, the power factor.

Aren't I allowed to drift the conversation a little?

Nope, the death squad has its orders...

I don't take orders from convicts :-)

On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 00:08:39 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 05 Oct 2019 22:18:44 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sat, 05 Oct 2019 21:22:03 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 23:49:23 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 19:56:29 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 09:41:25 +0100, PeterC

wrote:

On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 19:29:42 +0100, Robert wrote:

On 03/10/2019 14:29, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why do LEDs generate heat? I want a technical answer not
"because
they're inefficient". And will we ever make them more
efficient?
Besides the inefficiencies in the LED itself which other posters
have
covered, LED lamps have some current regulation or power supply
built-in
which will not be 100% efficient and thus generates heat.

If my meter is correct, all the LEDs that I've measured have a PF
of
approx.
0.5 - not a good start.
One TV has a PF of 0.97 and is barely warm over the PSU; another
is
0.86
and
is luke warm. The real warmth in the 2nd. one is around the
inputs
though -
SPDIF, USB and HDMI.

I just tested one of mine with a meter, and it gave a power factor
of
1.00, at 256V, 9.8W. Yes I know that's an absurdly high voltage,
but
I
live opposite the substation so it's higher than the rest of the
street,
and they won't do anything about it. I consequently run my
computer,
lights, etc off a UPS, which automatically chops 10 or 20V off
when
needed.
It's the cool white, 9W version of this (not necessarily from this
seller,
but they look identical): http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/262915986742
They contain a pretty decent looking switched mode PSU, unlike
some
other
bulbs I've seen which have a very simple capacitor dropper.
If any health and softy people want to be annoyed, then be aware
that
I
don't earth them. A couple of them made a humming noise when I
did.
If
I
touch the metal casing of an unearthed unit, and rub my finger
along
it,
I
feel a slight vibration. I guess something is jumping across by
induction.

More likely the capacitance effect you get with double insulated
stuff.

Could be. Would that also cause the buzzing when earthed?

That's more likely to be due to a significant earth current when
earthed.
Easy to measure.

0.020mA per foot of lighting (they're 4.5W per foot). I don't call
that
significant and can't see how it would cause an audible vibration.

Yeah, its more likely to be caused by something else.

Maybe its just not got the internal high frequency transformer potted
or mounted properly and you get resonance effect with the frequency
changing a little when its earthed so that you get the resonance effect
at that slightly different frequency.

I can't remember what the frequency I heard was, but it wasn't that
high,
probably something like 1 kHz. Aren't the transformers way higher than
that?

Yes, but the noise frequency is determined by the mechanical
resonant frequency of the mechanical stuff, not the frequency
of the current thru the transformer. In other words it can be
way lower than the frequency of the current. A sub harmonic in fact.

Ah, that makes sense. So I guess I could also fix it by simply sticking a
small weight on the device, like a lump of blutack, which would lower
the resonant frequency of the casing. But is it the casing that's
vibrating?

If that's the problem, even just jamming something like a toothpick
or bit of cardboard etc in the loose bit or even some superglue there.

Can't be bothered finding it, I don't believe in earthing anyway.

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 00:05:40 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 05 Oct 2019 22:15:34 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sat, 05 Oct 2019 21:17:00 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 23:46:55 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 19:17:46 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 09:41:25 +0100, PeterC

wrote:

On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 19:29:42 +0100, Robert wrote:

On 03/10/2019 14:29, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why do LEDs generate heat? I want a technical answer not
"because
they're inefficient". And will we ever make them more
efficient?
Besides the inefficiencies in the LED itself which other
posters
have
covered, LED lamps have some current regulation or power
supply
built-in
which will not be 100% efficient and thus generates heat.

If my meter is correct, all the LEDs that I've measured have a
PF
of
approx.
0.5 - not a good start.
One TV has a PF of 0.97 and is barely warm over the PSU;
another
is
0.86
and
is luke warm. The real warmth in the 2nd. one is around the
inputs
though -
SPDIF, USB and HDMI.

Is power factor that important? In a domestic building, you are
not
billed for power factor. I might have a capacitive load, but my
neighbour
has an inductive load, so they even out.

Most neighbours don't have much long term inductive load anymore.

I don't see why it would have reduced.

It has anyway.

For what reason

To get better motors, direct drive etc with washing machines for
example.

What has direct drive got to do with power factor?

They arent the old induction motors with the power factor they had.

I thought all motors created the same inductive load,

But not necessarily on the mains, that's what matters
with the more sophisticated motors used in stuff like
washing machines etc now.

Are they fed by altered AC or by DC?

They arent on the mains. They are driven by the electronics.
Similar to the difference between a conventional transformered
power supply and a modern switch mode power supply instead.

and had to be compensated for if you wanted unity PF.

There is no point in the cost of doing that with domestic appliances.

I know, I just thought that was the only way to remove the PF of any
motor.

The other obvious way is to drive it with the electronics
instead of having it on the mains. Most obviously with
a stepper motor, although that isnt what is used in
washing machines.

Direct drive motors are interesting - I once had a very cheap
turntable
that said "direct drive", so I guess it's not always a good thing?

There's a big difference between a turntable motor and
one in a top loading washing machine which needs to
do a variety of different things when washing, adjitating
and spin drying at different speeds.

I know. Which makes me think it's important for a washing machine. But
on a turntable, it has to be a very precise speed or the music sounds
****. It's the last place I'd think of putting one.

Its done with those to avoid belts and the downsides with those over
time.

I had a Garrard turntable that was decades old and I think that was belt
drive.

Yes, the early ones did, before power semiconductors
were economically feasible for that sort of situation.

Although it never went wrong so I never had cause to look inside.

Actually I think I remembered wrong, the cheap stereo might have said
"belt drive" on the front. Direct drive could have been the decent one.

Very likely.

From Wikipedia: "Usually motors are built to achieve maximum torque at
high rotational speeds, usually 1500 or 3000 rpm."
I thought motors produced more torque when slower - which is why they
burn out when jammed.

Not relevant to what is being discussed, the power factor.

Aren't I allowed to drift the conversation a little?

Nope, the death squad has its orders...

I don't take orders from convicts :-)

It's the death squad that has its orders, not you.

....and much better air in here again!

--
Richard addressing Rot Speed:
"**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID:

On 06/10/2019 00:13, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 05 Oct 2019 23:06:26 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:

On 05/10/2019 22:31, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 05 Oct 2019 22:15:34 +0100, AlexK wrote:
"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news

Direct drive motors are interesting - I once had a very cheap
turntable
that said "direct drive", so I guess it's not always a good thing?

There's a big difference between a turntable motor and
one in a top loading washing machine which needs to
do a variety of different things when washing, adjitating
and spin drying at different speeds.

I know.* Which makes me think it's important for a washing machine.* But
on a turntable, it has to be a very precise speed or the music sounds
****.* It's the last place I'd think of putting one.

Actually I think I remembered wrong, the cheap stereo might have said
"belt drive" on the front.* Direct drive could have been the decent one.

My Sony direct drive turntable bought in 1982 is still in working order
- except that the lid doesn't stay up. If it had been belt drive I
expect the belt would have perished by now. (My Marantz cassette deck,
bought in 1987 hasn't fared so well.)

Easy to get belts of any size online.

Lot easier not to have to.

--
Max Demian

On 06/10/2019 00:14, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 05 Oct 2019 23:08:43 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:

On 05/10/2019 19:46, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 10/4/19 2:51 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

[snip]

I have a LED

That irritates me, why don't you write "an LED"?* How do you say
"LED"? I say "Ell Eee Dee", not "Light Emitting Diode".* So it needs
an "an", not an "a".

"an LED" irritates me. I know the word is "light".

It's "a LED" if you pronounce it as an acronym.

What do you mean by "pronounce it as an acronym"?* I would have said
that means "ell eee dee" as in you're treating it as an acronym rather
than a word and spelling it out.

An acronym is a pronounceable abbreviation, e.g. NATO, scuba, radar.

--
Max Demian

On Sun, 6 Oct 2019 10:07:15 +0100, Max Dumb, another mentally deficient
inveterate troll-feeding senile idiot, blathered again:


What do you mean by "pronounce it as an acronym"?* I would have said
that means "ell eee dee" as in you're treating it as an acronym rather
than a word and spelling it out.

An acronym is a pronounceable abbreviation, e.g. NATO, scuba, radar.

LOL Oh, no, another bull**** "conversation" ensuing!

On Sun, 6 Oct 2019 10:04:21 +0100, Max Dumb, another mentally deficient
inveterate troll-feeding senile idiot, blathered again:


Easy to get belts of any size online.

Lot easier not to have to.

What a bunch of driveling idiots! tsk

On 04/10/2019 11:19, Clive Arthur wrote:
On 03/10/2019 17:03, Max Demian wrote:

snip

You can have red, green and blue LEDs to make up white...

They make something which looks white for many or maybe most purposes,
but they don't make white.* They don't make anything above blue, so no
violet, and nothing below 'normal' red, so no deep red, and there are
significant gaps between the colours.

It only really matters if you are doing precise colour matching. Colour
temperature of the incident natural light matters almost as much!

You have to have a material with very peculiar absorbtion band features
before it makes any appreciable difference. A handful of minerals like
Alexandrite and synthetics line didymium doped glass have an apparent
colour to the human eye which depends critically on light quality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysoberyl#Alexandrite
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didymium

Although they don't output violet the mix of blue and red light is good
enough. The eyes sensors are actually blue, green and yellow sensors.
Red is computed in the brain as Y-G which is why didymium doped glass
gives such an interesting effect with out of gamut cartoon colours. It
puts a sharp notch into the yellow wavelengths perfect for glassblowing.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 10/5/19 1:59 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

[snip]

More light is better if the whole room is lit evenly.* Which is why I
prefer strip lights to point sources.* Much better if you're soldering
for example, you don't create shadows, as light can come to the
workpiece from all angles, no matter where your body/head/hands/tools are.

In the case I described, the lamp (a "helpful" person tuned on) was to
my side, almost the same direction as the back of the TV.

--
80 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

If a member of McDonalds' staff was God:

"OK, one Universe. Uh, you want
fries with that?"

On 10/5/19 2:33 PM, NY wrote:

[snip]

My wife prefers uniform lighting - even if that means you are looking
into the light. When reading in bed, she will turn on the overhead light
(single ceiling rose or lots of GU10 spotlights) which illuminate the
rest of the room and shine right in your face, but leave the pages of
the book in shadow, She believes that reading by over-the-shoulder
light, with the book brighter than the background, strains your eyes.

Over-the-shoulder light would be a lot better than black letters on a
very dark gray background (because your eyes are adapted to the bright
light coming around the edges of the book).

--
80 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

If a member of McDonalds' staff was God:

"OK, one Universe. Uh, you want
fries with that?"

On Sun, 6 Oct 2019 12:57:57 -0500, Mark Lloyd, another absolutely brain
dead, troll-feeding, senile cretin, drivelled:


Over-the-shoulder light would be a lot better than black letters on a
very dark gray background

It would still be a LOT better if you just shut your stupid senile gob, you
notorious, troll-feeding senile asshole!

On Sun, 6 Oct 2019 12:54:27 -0500, Mark Lloyd, another absolutely brain
dead, troll-feeding, senile cretin, drivelled:


In the case I described, the lamp (a "helpful" person tuned on) was to
my side, almost the same direction as the back of the TV.

It's rather obvious now, a troll-feeding senile idiot is as much of a
driveling mentally deficient idiot as the troll he keeps feeding!

On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 06:02:46 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 00:05:40 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sat, 05 Oct 2019 22:15:34 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sat, 05 Oct 2019 21:17:00 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 23:46:55 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 19:17:46 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 09:41:25 +0100, PeterC

wrote:

On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 19:29:42 +0100, Robert wrote:

On 03/10/2019 14:29, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why do LEDs generate heat? I want a technical answer not
"because
they're inefficient". And will we ever make them more
efficient?
Besides the inefficiencies in the LED itself which other
posters
have
covered, LED lamps have some current regulation or power
supply
built-in
which will not be 100% efficient and thus generates heat.

If my meter is correct, all the LEDs that I've measured have a
PF
of
approx.
0.5 - not a good start.
One TV has a PF of 0.97 and is barely warm over the PSU;
another
is
0.86
and
is luke warm. The real warmth in the 2nd. one is around the
inputs
though -
SPDIF, USB and HDMI.

Is power factor that important? In a domestic building, you are
not
billed for power factor. I might have a capacitive load, but my
neighbour
has an inductive load, so they even out.

Most neighbours don't have much long term inductive load anymore.

I don't see why it would have reduced.

It has anyway.

For what reason

To get better motors, direct drive etc with washing machines for
example.

What has direct drive got to do with power factor?

They arent the old induction motors with the power factor they had.

I thought all motors created the same inductive load,

But not necessarily on the mains, that's what matters
with the more sophisticated motors used in stuff like
washing machines etc now.

Are they fed by altered AC or by DC?

They arent on the mains. They are driven by the electronics.
Similar to the difference between a conventional transformered
power supply and a modern switch mode power supply instead.

I know they don't get driven directly from the mains, as they need to go different speeds. But are they DC or AC? since they can rotate either way, does that mean they have to be DC? Or can it be AC using different coils?

and had to be compensated for if you wanted unity PF.

There is no point in the cost of doing that with domestic appliances.

I know, I just thought that was the only way to remove the PF of any
motor.

The other obvious way is to drive it with the electronics
instead of having it on the mains. Most obviously with
a stepper motor, although that isnt what is used in
washing machines.

Depends what the electronics is as to whether it blocks the PF?

Direct drive motors are interesting - I once had a very cheap
turntable
that said "direct drive", so I guess it's not always a good thing?

There's a big difference between a turntable motor and
one in a top loading washing machine which needs to
do a variety of different things when washing, adjitating
and spin drying at different speeds.

I know. Which makes me think it's important for a washing machine. But
on a turntable, it has to be a very precise speed or the music sounds
****. It's the last place I'd think of putting one.

Its done with those to avoid belts and the downsides with those over
time.

I had a Garrard turntable that was decades old and I think that was belt
drive.

Yes, the early ones did, before power semiconductors
were economically feasible for that sort of situation.

I think this one was from the 60s or earlier.

Although it never went wrong so I never had cause to look inside.

Actually I think I remembered wrong, the cheap stereo might have said
"belt drive" on the front. Direct drive could have been the decent one.

Very likely.

From Wikipedia: "Usually motors are built to achieve maximum torque at
high rotational speeds, usually 1500 or 3000 rpm."
I thought motors produced more torque when slower - which is why they
burn out when jammed.

Not relevant to what is being discussed, the power factor.

Aren't I allowed to drift the conversation a little?

Nope, the death squad has its orders...

I don't take orders from convicts :-)

It's the death squad that has its orders, not you.

[facepalm]

On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 10:04:21 +0100, Max Demian wrote:

On 06/10/2019 00:13, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 05 Oct 2019 23:06:26 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:

On 05/10/2019 22:31, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 05 Oct 2019 22:15:34 +0100, AlexK wrote:
"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
Direct drive motors are interesting - I once had a very cheap
turntable
that said "direct drive", so I guess it's not always a good thing?

There's a big difference between a turntable motor and
one in a top loading washing machine which needs to
do a variety of different things when washing, adjitating
and spin drying at different speeds.

I know. Which makes me think it's important for a washing machine. But
on a turntable, it has to be a very precise speed or the music sounds
****. It's the last place I'd think of putting one.

Actually I think I remembered wrong, the cheap stereo might have said
"belt drive" on the front. Direct drive could have been the decent one.

My Sony direct drive turntable bought in 1982 is still in working order
- except that the lid doesn't stay up. If it had been belt drive I
expect the belt would have perished by now. (My Marantz cassette deck,
bought in 1987 hasn't fared so well.)

Easy to get belts of any size online.

Lot easier not to have to.

I was just suggesting you could rectify that Marantz.

On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 10:07:15 +0100, Max Demian wrote:

On 06/10/2019 00:14, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 05 Oct 2019 23:08:43 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:

On 05/10/2019 19:46, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 10/4/19 2:51 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

[snip]

I have a LED

That irritates me, why don't you write "an LED"? How do you say
"LED"? I say "Ell Eee Dee", not "Light Emitting Diode". So it needs
an "an", not an "a".

"an LED" irritates me. I know the word is "light".

It's "a LED" if you pronounce it as an acronym.

What do you mean by "pronounce it as an acronym"? I would have said
that means "ell eee dee" as in you're treating it as an acronym rather
than a word and spelling it out.

An acronym is a pronounceable abbreviation, e.g. NATO, scuba, radar.

Ah, I always say acronym to mean abbreviation. I don't care if it's technically wrong :-)

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 06:02:46 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 00:05:40 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sat, 05 Oct 2019 22:15:34 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sat, 05 Oct 2019 21:17:00 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 23:46:55 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 19:17:46 +0100, AlexK
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 09:41:25 +0100, PeterC

wrote:

On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 19:29:42 +0100, Robert wrote:

On 03/10/2019 14:29, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why do LEDs generate heat? I want a technical answer not
"because
they're inefficient". And will we ever make them more
efficient?
Besides the inefficiencies in the LED itself which other
posters
have
covered, LED lamps have some current regulation or power
supply
built-in
which will not be 100% efficient and thus generates heat.

If my meter is correct, all the LEDs that I've measured have
a
PF
of
approx.
0.5 - not a good start.
One TV has a PF of 0.97 and is barely warm over the PSU;
another
is
0.86
and
is luke warm. The real warmth in the 2nd. one is around the
inputs
though -
SPDIF, USB and HDMI.

Is power factor that important? In a domestic building, you
are
not
billed for power factor. I might have a capacitive load, but
my
neighbour
has an inductive load, so they even out.

Most neighbours don't have much long term inductive load
anymore.

I don't see why it would have reduced.

It has anyway.

For what reason

To get better motors, direct drive etc with washing machines for
example.

What has direct drive got to do with power factor?

They arent the old induction motors with the power factor they had.

I thought all motors created the same inductive load,

But not necessarily on the mains, that's what matters
with the more sophisticated motors used in stuff like
washing machines etc now.

Are they fed by altered AC or by DC?

They arent on the mains. They are driven by the electronics.
Similar to the difference between a conventional transformered
power supply and a modern switch mode power supply instead.

I know they don't get driven directly from the mains, as they need to go
different speeds.

So their power factor is no longer relevant to the mains.

But are they DC or AC?

It isnt the black and white with those. Same with universal motors.

since they can rotate either way, does that mean they have to be DC? Or
can it be AC using different coils?

Or driven differently. Is a stepper motor DC or AC ?

and had to be compensated for if you wanted unity PF.

There is no point in the cost of doing that with domestic appliances.

I know, I just thought that was the only way to remove the PF of any
motor.

The other obvious way is to drive it with the electronics
instead of having it on the mains. Most obviously with
a stepper motor, although that isnt what is used in
washing machines.

Depends what the electronics is as to whether it blocks the PF?

Its not blocking that matters, what matters in this
context is what the mains sees of the entire appliance.

Direct drive motors are interesting - I once had a very cheap
turntable
that said "direct drive", so I guess it's not always a good thing?

There's a big difference between a turntable motor and
one in a top loading washing machine which needs to
do a variety of different things when washing, adjitating
and spin drying at different speeds.

I know. Which makes me think it's important for a washing machine.
But
on a turntable, it has to be a very precise speed or the music sounds
****. It's the last place I'd think of putting one.

Its done with those to avoid belts and the downsides with those over
time.

I had a Garrard turntable that was decades old and I think that was belt
drive.

Yes, the early ones did, before power semiconductors
were economically feasible for that sort of situation.

I think this one was from the 60s or earlier.

Yeah, could well be before power semis were economically
viable in that price of appliance, particularly if you allow for
quite a bit of inertia in how designs change over time etc.

Although it never went wrong so I never had cause to look inside.

Actually I think I remembered wrong, the cheap stereo might have said
"belt drive" on the front. Direct drive could have been the decent
one.

Very likely.

From Wikipedia: "Usually motors are built to achieve maximum torque
at
high rotational speeds, usually 1500 or 3000 rpm."
I thought motors produced more torque when slower - which is why
they
burn out when jammed.

Not relevant to what is being discussed, the power factor.

Aren't I allowed to drift the conversation a little?

Nope, the death squad has its orders...

I don't take orders from convicts :-)

It's the death squad that has its orders, not you.

[facepalm]

On 06/10/2019 22:30, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 10:04:21 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:

On 06/10/2019 00:13, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 05 Oct 2019 23:06:26 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:

On 05/10/2019 22:31, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 05 Oct 2019 22:15:34 +0100, AlexK wrote:
"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
Direct drive motors are interesting - I once had a very cheap
turntable
that said "direct drive", so I guess it's not always a good thing?

There's a big difference between a turntable motor and
one in a top loading washing machine which needs to
do a variety of different things when washing, adjitating
and spin drying at different speeds.

I know.* Which makes me think it's important for a washing
machine.* But
on a turntable, it has to be a very precise speed or the music sounds
****.* It's the last place I'd think of putting one.

Actually I think I remembered wrong, the cheap stereo might have said
"belt drive" on the front.* Direct drive could have been the decent
one.

My Sony direct drive turntable bought in 1982 is still in working order
- except that the lid doesn't stay up. If it had been belt drive I
expect the belt would have perished by now. (My Marantz cassette deck,
bought in 1987 hasn't fared so well.)

Easy to get belts of any size online.

Lot easier not to have to.

I was just suggesting you could rectify that Marantz.

I suspect there are several belts. I partly removed the transport
mechanism and replaced it and it seemed to work better for a bit - I
didn't see any belts. I'm re-recording my classical stuff from Freeview
Radio 3 and converting it to MP3 currently.

--
Max Demian

On Sun, 6 Oct 2019 23:13:33 +0100, Mark Lloyd, another absolutely brain
dead, troll-feeding, senile cretin, drivelled:


I suspect there are several belts.

Most likely more belts than you got brain cells, you subnormal troll-feeding
senile asshole!

....and much better air in here again!

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On Friday, 4 October 2019 16:34:01 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 16:28:06 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:


I just tested one of mine with a meter, and it gave a power factor of 1.00, at 256V, 9.8W.


I doubt that it's just the LED, you shouldn't include the PSU in such calculations especailly if running off mains AC, because you're including the LED+PSU so not really gettign any info about the actual LED.

Why should I not include the whole unit? Surely that's all that matters.

That depends on the statement yuo wish to make.
If you want to test the power factor of an LED then that is what you test for.
If you want to test the power factor of an PSU then that is what you test for.
otherwise the test is pretty meaningless.

On Mon, 7 Oct 2019 04:59:03 -0700 (PDT), whisky-depraved, the notorious,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:


That depends on the statement yuo wish to make.
If you want to test the power factor of an LED then that is what you test for.
If you want to test the power factor of an PSU then that is what you test for.
otherwise the test is pretty meaningless.

Just what kind of a big, troll-feeding, senile ASSHOLE are you,
whisky-depraved?

Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 10:07:15 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:
On 06/10/2019 00:14, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 05 Oct 2019 23:08:43 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:

On 05/10/2019 19:46, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 10/4/19 2:51 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

[snip]

I have a LED

That irritates me, why don't you write "an LED"? How do you say
"LED"? I say "Ell Eee Dee", not "Light Emitting Diode". So it
needs an "an", not an "a".

"an LED" irritates me. I know the word is "light".

It's "a LED" if you pronounce it as an acronym.

What do you mean by "pronounce it as an acronym"? I would have said
that means "ell eee dee" as in you're treating it as an acronym
rather than a word and spelling it out.

An acronym is a pronounceable abbreviation, e.g. NATO, scuba, radar.

Ah, I always say acronym to mean abbreviation. I don't care if it's
technically wrong :-)

Top notch troll phucker. Well done. Now why you just **** off and die?

On Mon, 07 Oct 2019 19:33:19 +0100, Mr Pounder Esquire wrote:

Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 10:07:15 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:
On 06/10/2019 00:14, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 05 Oct 2019 23:08:43 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:

On 05/10/2019 19:46, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 10/4/19 2:51 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

[snip]

I have a LED

That irritates me, why don't you write "an LED"? How do you say
"LED"? I say "Ell Eee Dee", not "Light Emitting Diode". So it
needs an "an", not an "a".

"an LED" irritates me. I know the word is "light".

It's "a LED" if you pronounce it as an acronym.

What do you mean by "pronounce it as an acronym"? I would have said
that means "ell eee dee" as in you're treating it as an acronym
rather than a word and spelling it out.

An acronym is a pronounceable abbreviation, e.g. NATO, scuba, radar.

Ah, I always say acronym to mean abbreviation. I don't care if it's
technically wrong :-)

Top notch troll phucker. Well done. Now why you just **** off and die?

Don't bother trying to answer things that go over your head.

On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 18:54:27 +0100, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 10/5/19 1:59 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

[snip]

More light is better if the whole room is lit evenly. Which is why I
prefer strip lights to point sources. Much better if you're soldering
for example, you don't create shadows, as light can come to the
workpiece from all angles, no matter where your body/head/hands/tools are.

In the case I described, the lamp (a "helpful" person tuned on) was to
my side, almost the same direction as the back of the TV.

The lighting in all my rooms comes from striplights all over the ceiling, so everything is lit nice and evenly.

On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 22:42:41 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 06:02:46 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 00:05:40 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news I thought all motors created the same inductive load,

But not necessarily on the mains, that's what matters
with the more sophisticated motors used in stuff like
washing machines etc now.

Are they fed by altered AC or by DC?

They arent on the mains. They are driven by the electronics.
Similar to the difference between a conventional transformered
power supply and a modern switch mode power supply instead.

I know they don't get driven directly from the mains, as they need to go
different speeds.

So their power factor is no longer relevant to the mains.

But are they DC or AC?

It isnt the black and white with those. Same with universal motors.

Explain.

since they can rotate either way, does that mean they have to be DC? Or
can it be AC using different coils?

Or driven differently. Is a stepper motor DC or AC ?

I don't know. I've only used them briefly in radio control models, but not looked at the circuitry in great detail.

and had to be compensated for if you wanted unity PF.

There is no point in the cost of doing that with domestic appliances.

I know, I just thought that was the only way to remove the PF of any
motor.

The other obvious way is to drive it with the electronics
instead of having it on the mains. Most obviously with
a stepper motor, although that isnt what is used in
washing machines.

Depends what the electronics is as to whether it blocks the PF?

Its not blocking that matters, what matters in this
context is what the mains sees of the entire appliance.

That's my point. Can PF be seen through a transformer or power supply?

On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 23:13:33 +0100, Max Demian wrote:

On 06/10/2019 22:30, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 10:04:21 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:

On 06/10/2019 00:13, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 05 Oct 2019 23:06:26 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:

On 05/10/2019 22:31, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 05 Oct 2019 22:15:34 +0100, AlexK wrote:
"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
Direct drive motors are interesting - I once had a very cheap
turntable
that said "direct drive", so I guess it's not always a good thing?

There's a big difference between a turntable motor and
one in a top loading washing machine which needs to
do a variety of different things when washing, adjitating
and spin drying at different speeds.

I know. Which makes me think it's important for a washing
machine. But
on a turntable, it has to be a very precise speed or the music sounds
****. It's the last place I'd think of putting one.

Actually I think I remembered wrong, the cheap stereo might have said
"belt drive" on the front. Direct drive could have been the decent
one.

My Sony direct drive turntable bought in 1982 is still in working order
- except that the lid doesn't stay up. If it had been belt drive I
expect the belt would have perished by now. (My Marantz cassette deck,
bought in 1987 hasn't fared so well.)

Easy to get belts of any size online.

Lot easier not to have to.

I was just suggesting you could rectify that Marantz.

I suspect there are several belts. I partly removed the transport
mechanism and replaced it and it seemed to work better for a bit - I
didn't see any belts. I'm re-recording my classical stuff from Freeview
Radio 3 and converting it to MP3 currently.

Indeed, it's often easier to just download a new copy than to convert something from an old version you have on tape/LP/etc.

On 2019-10-07 3:18 p.m., Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 18:54:27 +0100, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 10/5/19 1:59 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

[snip]

More light is better if the whole room is lit evenly.* Which is why I
prefer strip lights to point sources.* Much better if you're soldering
for example, you don't create shadows, as light can come to the
workpiece from all angles, no matter where your body/head/hands/tools
are.

In the case I described, the lamp (a "helpful" person tuned on) was to
my side, almost the same direction as the back of the TV.

The lighting in all my rooms comes from striplights all over the
ceiling, so everything is lit nice and evenly.

no it isn't and your light is a bare bulb in a night light

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 22:42:41 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 06:02:46 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 00:05:40 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news I thought all motors created the same inductive load,

But not necessarily on the mains, that's what matters
with the more sophisticated motors used in stuff like
washing machines etc now.

Are they fed by altered AC or by DC?

They arent on the mains. They are driven by the electronics.
Similar to the difference between a conventional transformered
power supply and a modern switch mode power supply instead.

I know they don't get driven directly from the mains, as they need to go
different speeds.

So their power factor is no longer relevant to the mains.

But are they DC or AC?

It isnt the black and white with those. Same with universal motors.

Explain.

Universal motors run on AC or DC, that's where the name comes from.

since they can rotate either way, does that mean they have to be DC? Or
can it be AC using different coils?

Or driven differently. Is a stepper motor DC or AC ?

I don't know. I've only used them briefly in radio control models, but
not looked at the circuitry in great detail.

You don't need to. You know the basics of how they are
driven. The problem is with whether that is called AC or DC.
Strictly speaking it isnt either.

and had to be compensated for if you wanted unity PF.

There is no point in the cost of doing that with domestic appliances.

I know, I just thought that was the only way to remove the PF of any
motor.

The other obvious way is to drive it with the electronics
instead of having it on the mains. Most obviously with
a stepper motor, although that isnt what is used in
washing machines.

Depends what the electronics is as to whether it blocks the PF?

Its not blocking that matters, what matters in this
context is what the mains sees of the entire appliance.

That's my point. Can PF be seen through a transformer or power supply?

No it cant with those fancy motors in washing machines etc now.

On Tue, 8 Oct 2019 10:35:08 +1100, AlexK, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH another endless idiotic "discussion" between the two clinically
insane trolls

--
Another typical retarded "conversation" between the two resident idiots:

Birdbrain: "But imagine how cool it was to own slaves."

Senile Rodent: "Yeah, right. Feed them, clothe them, and fix them when
they're broken.
After all, you paid good money for them. Then you've got to keep an eye
on them all the time."

Birdbrain: "Better than having to give them wages on top of that."

Senile Rodent: "Specially when they make more slaves for you
and produce their own food and clothes."

MID:

On Monday, 7 October 2019 23:18:29 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 18:54:27 +0100, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 10/5/19 1:59 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

[snip]

More light is better if the whole room is lit evenly. Which is why I
prefer strip lights to point sources. Much better if you're soldering
for example, you don't create shadows, as light can come to the
workpiece from all angles, no matter where your body/head/hands/tools are.

In the case I described, the lamp (a "helpful" person tuned on) was to
my side, almost the same direction as the back of the TV.

The lighting in all my rooms comes from striplights all over the ceiling, so everything is lit nice and evenly.

Is that really nice, sound more like yuo're living in a 1970s factory.

On Tue, 8 Oct 2019 05:44:33 -0700 (PDT), whisky-depraved, the notorious,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:


Is that really nice, sound more like yuo're living in a 1970s factory.

Sounds more like you are a real demented troll-feeding senile asshole!

On Mon, 07 Oct 2019 12:59:03 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Friday, 4 October 2019 16:34:01 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 16:28:06 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:


I just tested one of mine with a meter, and it gave a power factor of 1.00, at 256V, 9.8W.


I doubt that it's just the LED, you shouldn't include the PSU in such calculations especailly if running off mains AC, because you're including the LED+PSU so not really gettign any info about the actual LED.

Why should I not include the whole unit? Surely that's all that matters.

That depends on the statement yuo wish to make.
If you want to test the power factor of an LED then that is what you test for.
If you want to test the power factor of an PSU then that is what you test for.
otherwise the test is pretty meaningless.

All we care about is the power factor of the whole unit. You don't have LEDs on their own.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On Tue, 08 Oct 2019 13:44:33 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Monday, 7 October 2019 23:18:29 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 18:54:27 +0100, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 10/5/19 1:59 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

[snip]

More light is better if the whole room is lit evenly. Which is why I
prefer strip lights to point sources. Much better if you're soldering
for example, you don't create shadows, as light can come to the
workpiece from all angles, no matter where your body/head/hands/tools are.

In the case I described, the lamp (a "helpful" person tuned on) was to
my side, almost the same direction as the back of the TV.

The lighting in all my rooms comes from striplights all over the ceiling, so everything is lit nice and evenly.

Is that really nice, sound more like yuo're living in a 1970s factory.

They're little LED strips, they don't look like those huge ballast driven flickery fluorescents.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On Wednesday, 9 October 2019 01:08:01 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 07 Oct 2019 12:59:03 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Friday, 4 October 2019 16:34:01 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 16:28:06 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:


I just tested one of mine with a meter, and it gave a power factor of 1.00, at 256V, 9.8W.


I doubt that it's just the LED, you shouldn't include the PSU in such calculations especailly if running off mains AC, because you're including the LED+PSU so not really gettign any info about the actual LED.

Why should I not include the whole unit? Surely that's all that matters.

That depends on the statement yuo wish to make.
If you want to test the power factor of an LED then that is what you test for.
If you want to test the power factor of an PSU then that is what you test for.
otherwise the test is pretty meaningless.

All we care about is the power factor of the whole unit. You don't have LEDs on their own.

I do in fact most products have LEDs that aren;t directly connected to mains voltages.
Think or all the LEDS in a TV screen 1000s of them, and in phones.
How about car headlights ?

On Wednesday, 9 October 2019 01:12:59 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 08 Oct 2019 13:44:33 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Monday, 7 October 2019 23:18:29 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 18:54:27 +0100, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 10/5/19 1:59 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

[snip]

More light is better if the whole room is lit evenly. Which is why I
prefer strip lights to point sources. Much better if you're soldering
for example, you don't create shadows, as light can come to the
workpiece from all angles, no matter where your body/head/hands/tools are.

In the case I described, the lamp (a "helpful" person tuned on) was to
my side, almost the same direction as the back of the TV.

The lighting in all my rooms comes from striplights all over the ceiling, so everything is lit nice and evenly.

Is that really nice, sound more like yuo're living in a 1970s factory.

They're little LED strips, they don't look like those huge ballast driven flickery fluorescents.

It's still a strip light.



--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On Tue, 08 Oct 2019 00:35:08 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 22:42:41 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 06:02:46 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 00:05:40 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news I thought all motors created the same inductive load,

But not necessarily on the mains, that's what matters
with the more sophisticated motors used in stuff like
washing machines etc now.

Are they fed by altered AC or by DC?

They arent on the mains. They are driven by the electronics.
Similar to the difference between a conventional transformered
power supply and a modern switch mode power supply instead.

I know they don't get driven directly from the mains, as they need to go
different speeds.

So their power factor is no longer relevant to the mains.

But are they DC or AC?

It isnt the black and white with those. Same with universal motors.

Explain.

Universal motors run on AC or DC, that's where the name comes from.

So what do washing machines use, AC or DC?

since they can rotate either way, does that mean they have to be DC? Or
can it be AC using different coils?

Or driven differently. Is a stepper motor DC or AC ?

I don't know. I've only used them briefly in radio control models, but
not looked at the circuitry in great detail.

You don't need to. You know the basics of how they are
driven. The problem is with whether that is called AC or DC.
Strictly speaking it isnt either.

Does the current flow one way or both?

and had to be compensated for if you wanted unity PF.

There is no point in the cost of doing that with domestic appliances.

I know, I just thought that was the only way to remove the PF of any
motor.

The other obvious way is to drive it with the electronics
instead of having it on the mains. Most obviously with
a stepper motor, although that isnt what is used in
washing machines.

Depends what the electronics is as to whether it blocks the PF?

Its not blocking that matters, what matters in this
context is what the mains sees of the entire appliance.

That's my point. Can PF be seen through a transformer or power supply?

No it cant with those fancy motors in washing machines etc now.

I thought I'd try to find out a typical power factor for a domestic street, so I checked https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
Although it doesn't have power factor measured, I was interested to see that at the current time (3pm Wed 9th Oct 2019), wind power is generated one THIRD of the UK's usage. I thought renewables were pitiful....

Any idea where I can find out what a typical home's power factor is nowadays?

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On Wed, 9 Oct 2019 06:04:03 -0700 (PDT), whisky-depraved, the notorious,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:


I do in fact most

FLUSH

You are obviously as big a piece of **** as the troll you keep feeding, you
senile idiot!

On Wed, 9 Oct 2019 06:07:19 -0700 (PDT), whisky-depraved, the notorious,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:


It's still a strip light.

You are STILL a troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE!