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Default OT Reasons to leave the EUSSR


26 Reasons for Leaving the EU.

Its essential that the public are fully aware of can happen if we remain in the EU.

1: The UK loses its abstention veto in 2020. As The Lisbon Treaty changed the system to majority acceptance, no abstentions or vetos are allowed.

2: All countries in the EU become states in the federal EU by 2022. Again, there are no exceptions or vetos.

3: All countries in the EU adopt the Euro by 2022. Any new country must do so within 2 years of joining. If we leave under Brexit and rejoin, the £ sterling goes !

4: The London Stock Exchange moves to Frankfurt in 2020 and integrates into the EU Stock Exchange with a loss of 200,000 ( plus ) jobs in the UK. This is pre-agreed and on hold due to Brexit negotiations. If Brexit happens, the move is cancelled but if not, could be full steam ahead for the move.

5: EU Parliament and ECJ become supreme over all UK legislative bodies.

6: The UK adopts every EU Parliament and ECJ decision with no abstention or veto. This, in the years to come, negates the need for the House of Lords or Commons as we know them today.

7: The UK CANNOT make its own trade deals.

8: The UK CANNOT set its own trade tariffs.

9 The UK CANNOT set its own trade quotas

10: The UK loses control of its fishing grounds.

11: The UK loses control of its oil and gas rights.

12: The UK loses control of its borders and enters the Schengen region by 2022 (Lisbon treaty).

13: The UK loses control of its planning legislation.

14: The UK loses control of its Armed Forces and Nuclear Deterrent.

15: The UK loses control of taxation policy.

16: The UK cannot create its own laws and implement them.

17: The UK loses its standing in the Commonwealth.

18: The UK loses control of provinces and affiliated nations e.g. The Falklands, Cayman Islands, Gibraltar etc.

19: The UK loses control of its judicial system. Habeus Corpus replaced by Corpus Juris ie innocent until proved guilty replaced by the European system of an accused person having to prove ones innocence.

20: The UK loses control of its international policy.

21: The UK loses control of national policy.

22: The UK loses its right to call itself a Nation.

23: The UK loses control of its Space Exploration programme.

24: The UK loses control of its Aviation and Sea Lane jurisdiction.

25: The UK loses its rebate in 2020 as laid down in the Lisbon treaty.

26: UK payments to the EU increase. An average of £1.2 billion per annum and by £2.3 billion per annum by 2020. Is projected.







How will the UK end up ?

1: The UK becomes a vassal protectorate state.

2: Continued Freedom of Movement means the UK population grows at a rate between 400,000 to 675,000 per annum ?

2.1 This results in not wage suppression but wage depression.

2.2 More than 500,000 new homes built annually (currently 125,000) ?

2.3 House prices and rents skyrocket annually, possibly 23% ?

2.4 Class sizes in schools increase to 50%, possibly double that ?

2.5 Will the NHS become an emergency service of care providers, unable to cope with numbers needing care, other than emergencies ?

2.6 Only those convicted of serious crime, ie murder, will get a custodial sentence ?

2.7 Court systems overrun so only extreme cases heard. The rest get automatic fines ?

2.8 Emergency services unable to cope with this scale. They cant cope now !

2.9 Social care morphs into private social care for those who can afford it ?

2.11 Homelessness increases annually ?

2.12 Unemployment increases annually ?

2.13 The Benefit system shows signs of collapse.

2.14 Crime increases by what % annually ?

3. Because the UK cannot make its own trade deals, tariffs or quotas, food prices may increase by over 25% and cost of living up - by over 39% ?

4. The UK losing oil and gas rights, it loses revenue from taxation on them, resulting in a loss of over £600 billion pa ?

5. The UKs share of the vote on new laws, regulations, treaties etc. is currenly only 3.57% of the vote. The worst is that we end up with 0%: -

Everything listed here is verified by sources.

The EU propaganda machine and Remainer Sir Humphreys in The Govt are not telling us this.

Remainers bleat about the people not knowing the facts. So why are they NOT telling us these ?

This information is from facts and figures from public records of the UK Govt, the EU Parliament, The Bank of England, the CBI, Migration watch, Stock Exchanges around the world, the IMF, and the UN.
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harry wrote:

26 Reasons for Leaving the EU.


[snip list]

https://fullfact.org/europe/viral-list-about-lisbon-treaty-wrong

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On Tue, 17 Sep 2019 02:38:49 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:


19: The UK loses control of its judicial system. Habeus Corpus ... ie innocent until proved guilty


That's not what HabeAs Corpus means. Since your source is wrong on
this fundamental matter, why should we believe any of the rest of it?

rbu

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In message , Andy Burns
writes
harry wrote:

26 Reasons for Leaving the EU.


[snip list]

https://fullfact.org/europe/viral-list-about-lisbon-treaty-wrong


I'll be interested to read our Brexiteers views on the above.


--
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On 17/09/2019 11:22, Andy Burns wrote:
harry wrote:

26 Reasons for Leaving the EU.


[snip list]

https://fullfact.org/europe/viral-list-about-lisbon-treaty-wrong


Harry doesn't do facts.

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On 17/09/2019 11:50, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Andy Burns
writes
harry wrote:

26 Reasons for Leaving the EU.


[snip list]

https://fullfact.org/europe/viral-list-about-lisbon-treaty-wrong


I'll be interested to read our Brexiteers views on the above.


Brexiters don't even care if it's true or not. Just as long as they can
be shouty, angry and win. it's populism, it's nationalism, it's
post-truth politics.
TW
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On Tuesday, 17 September 2019 11:22:35 UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
harry wrote:

26 Reasons for Leaving the EU.


[snip list]

https://fullfact.org/europe/viral-list-about-lisbon-treaty-wrong


Yes pretty easy to find out the facts.

Much of it is wrong. The list is a mixture of false claims, and claims that have some truth but could be misleading given the context.


Or it could all just be a secret cure for insomnia like our H&S pages ;-)

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On 17/09/2019 12:22, nightjar wrote:
On 17/09/2019 11:22, Andy Burns wrote:
harry wrote:

26 Reasons for Leaving the EU.


[snip list]

https://fullfact.org/europe/viral-list-about-lisbon-treaty-wrong


Harry doesn't do facts.

Or straw men.

I mean really, setting up false claims, claiming brexiteers claim them,
and them knocking them down in the letter but not even in the spirit?

I am surprised you got taken in.


--
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"I don't."
"Don't what?"
"Think about Gay Marriage."

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Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Andy Burns
writes
harry wrote:

26 Reasons for Leaving the EU.


[snip list]

https://fullfact.org/europe/viral-list-about-lisbon-treaty-wrong


I'll be interested to read our Brexiteers views on the above.



The Remainers keep telling us what the Brexiteers (supposedly) think, so
why do you suddenly need to ask?

Perhaps the Remainers have come to their senses and realised just how
arrogant and stupid they look.



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In article ,
Brian Reay wrote:
The Remainers keep telling us what the Brexiteers (supposedly) think, so
why do you suddenly need to ask?


Perhaps the Remainers have come to their senses and realised just how
arrogant and stupid they look.


Odd really. Brexiteers are all so convinced a no deal exit is what the
people voted for. But very against a second referendum where that belief
could be tested.

I don't want a second referendum anymore than I wanted the first one. But
it does seem those who who did secretly believe it was a fluke.

--
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Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


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In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Brian Reay wrote:
The Remainers keep telling us what the Brexiteers (supposedly) think, so
why do you suddenly need to ask?


Perhaps the Remainers have come to their senses and realised just how
arrogant and stupid they look.


Odd really. Brexiteers are all so convinced a no deal exit is what the
people voted for. But very against a second referendum where that belief
could be tested.

Not at all. It's remainers who insist people didn't vote for a no-deal
brexit whereas in fact it was made perfectly clear during the referendum
campaign by both sides that it was a possible outcome if negotiations
did not succeed.
I don't want a second referendum anymore than I wanted the first one. But
it does seem those who who did secretly believe it was a fluke.

If it's secret how can you know?
--
bert
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On 17/09/2019 16:07, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Brian Reay wrote:
The Remainers keep telling us what the Brexiteers (supposedly) think, so
why do you suddenly need to ask?


Perhaps the Remainers have come to their senses and realised just how
arrogant and stupid they look.


Odd really. Brexiteers are all so convinced a no deal exit is what the
people voted for. But very against a second referendum where that belief
could be tested.

I don't want a second referendum anymore than I wanted the first one. But
it does seem those who who did secretly believe it was a fluke.


There you go again.

Maybe you are uncertain why you voted the way you did. That doesn't mean
others are.


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On 17/09/2019 10:38, harry wrote:


stop posting lies harry.

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Yes he has gone off one one again. He sounds like some demented psycho.
Even I know that many states in the Eu will not stand for half of those
things happening so if they are tried then the EU will fragment in any case.

There is provision for expansion of powers in the Lisbon Agreement but by no
means is it a done deal, they know that its not going to be acceptable.
Brian

--
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This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
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"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
harry wrote:

26 Reasons for Leaving the EU.


[snip list]

https://fullfact.org/europe/viral-list-about-lisbon-treaty-wrong



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In article ,
bert wrote:
Odd really. Brexiteers are all so convinced a no deal exit is what the
people voted for. But very against a second referendum where that belief
could be tested.

Not at all. It's remainers who insist people didn't vote for a no-deal
brexit whereas in fact it was made perfectly clear during the referendum
campaign by both sides that it was a possible outcome if negotiations
did not succeed.


Really? Then there was no need for leave to tell us the EU would be a
pushover and give in to our every demand? They need us more than we need
them? And so on?

Remain did try and tell us what would happen with no deal. Screams of
project fear from leavers. But oddly no one predicted the present fiasco.

--
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Dave Plowman London SW
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Brian Reay wrote:
The Remainers keep telling us what the Brexiteers (supposedly) think, so
why do you suddenly need to ask?


Perhaps the Remainers have come to their senses and realised just how
arrogant and stupid they look.


Odd really. Brexiteers are all so convinced a no deal exit is what the
people voted for. But very against a second referendum where that belief
could be tested.

I don't want a second referendum anymore than I wanted the first one.
But it does seem those who who did secretly believe it was a fluke.


Nope, they realise that only a simple yes no is viable with a referendum.

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On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 05:45:56 +1000, jeikppkywk, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:


I don't want a second referendum anymore than I wanted the first one.
But it does seem those who who did secretly believe it was a fluke.


Nope, they realise that only a simple yes no is viable with a referendum.


British referendum? NONE of yours, senile Ozzie pest!

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https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/
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On 17/09/2019 20:45, jeikppkywk wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
* Brian Reay wrote:
The Remainers keep telling us what the Brexiteers (supposedly) think, so
why do you suddenly need to ask?


Perhaps the Remainers have come to their senses and realised just how
arrogant and stupid they look.


Odd really. Brexiteers are all so convinced a no deal exit is what the
people voted for. But very against a second referendum where that belief
could be tested.

I don't want a second referendum anymore than I wanted the first one.
But it does seem those who who did secretly believe it was a fluke.


Nope, they realise that only a simple yes no is viable with a referendum.


In reality the vote boiled down to ever closer union or turning around
and walking away as fast as possible.

Unfortunately te EU and remainers are hanging onto our coat tails and
whining like a spoilt two year old that has lost its dummy.
..

--
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look exactly the same afterwards."

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"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 17/09/2019 20:45, jeikppkywk wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Brian Reay wrote:
The Remainers keep telling us what the Brexiteers (supposedly) think,
so
why do you suddenly need to ask?

Perhaps the Remainers have come to their senses and realised just how
arrogant and stupid they look.

Odd really. Brexiteers are all so convinced a no deal exit is what the
people voted for. But very against a second referendum where that belief
could be tested.

I don't want a second referendum anymore than I wanted the first one.
But it does seem those who who did secretly believe it was a fluke.


Nope, they realise that only a simple yes no is viable with a referendum.


In reality the vote boiled down to ever closer union or turning around
and walking away as fast as possible.


For many it was about much more basic issues like EUians
being free to move to the UK if they decided they wanted to
do that. And for some, being able to do that to the EU too.

Unfortunately te EU and remainers are hanging onto our coat tails and
whining like a spoilt two year old that has lost its dummy.


For quite a few in the EU, they just believe in the EU project.

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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
bert wrote:
Odd really. Brexiteers are all so convinced a no deal exit is what the
people voted for. But very against a second referendum where that belief
could be tested.

Not at all. It's remainers who insist people didn't vote for a no-deal
brexit whereas in fact it was made perfectly clear during the referendum
campaign by both sides that it was a possible outcome if negotiations
did not succeed.


Really? Then there was no need for leave to tell us the EU would be a
pushover and give in to our every demand? They need us more than we need
them? And so on?

Remain did try and tell us what would happen with no deal. Screams of
project fear from leavers. But oddly no one predicted the present fiasco.


Just because you didnt predict the EU would be so difficult (to put it
mildly) doesnt mean others didnt.

The problem is, you and your fellow Remainers are convinced you know what
others, in particular Leavers, think / believe.

You focus all your bile and bigotry into trying to convince yourself that
we are wrong and you are blessed with infallibility.

That tells me you are not sure of your own position at all, no matter how
much you rant and rave.





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On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 12:18:49 +1000, jeikppkywk, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:


In reality the vote boiled down to ever closer union or turning around
and walking away as fast as possible.


For many it was about much more basic issues like EUians
being free


NONE of yours, you trolling senile Ozzie pest! tsk

--
addressing nym-shifting senile Rodent:
"You on the other hand are a heavyweight bull****ter who demonstrates
your particular prowess at it every day."
MID:
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On 18/09/2019 01:25, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/09/2019 20:45, jeikppkywk wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
* Brian Reay wrote:
The Remainers keep telling us what the Brexiteers (supposedly)
think, so
why do you suddenly need to ask?

Perhaps the Remainers have come to their senses and realised just how
arrogant and stupid they look.

Odd really. Brexiteers are all so convinced a no deal exit is what the
people voted for. But very against a second referendum where that belief
could be tested.

I don't want a second referendum anymore than I wanted the first one.
But it does seem those who who did secretly believe it was a fluke.


Nope, they realise that only a simple yes no is viable with a referendum.


In* reality the vote boiled down to ever closer union or turning around
and walking away as fast as possible.


Or even walking away if anything actually happened that we didn't like.

Not just run away because some bunch of anti eu people lied about
everything they could.


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On 18/09/2019 03:18, jeikppkywk wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...


Unfortunately te EU and remainers are hanging onto our coat tails and
whining like a spoilt two year old that has lost its dummy.


For quite a few in the EU, they just believe in the EU project.


It all boils down to religion, in the end...


--
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private property.

Karl Marx

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"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 18/09/2019 03:18, jeikppkywk wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...


Unfortunately te EU and remainers are hanging onto our coat tails and
whining like a spoilt two year old that has lost its dummy.


For quite a few in the EU, they just believe in the EU project.


It all boils down to religion, in the end...


Politics is nothing like religion.

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On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 18:52:56 +1000, jeikppkywk, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:


It all boils down to religion, in the end...


Politics is nothing like religion.


Hahahahahahaaa!!! Auto-contradicting senile idiot!

--
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"Auto-contradictor Rod is back! (in the KF)"
MID:


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On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 04:40:48 +0000 (UTC), Brian Reay
wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
bert wrote:
Odd really. Brexiteers are all so convinced a no deal exit is what the
people voted for. But very against a second referendum where that belief
could be tested.

Not at all. It's remainers who insist people didn't vote for a no-deal
brexit whereas in fact it was made perfectly clear during the referendum
campaign by both sides that it was a possible outcome if negotiations
did not succeed.


Really? Then there was no need for leave to tell us the EU would be a
pushover and give in to our every demand? They need us more than we need
them? And so on?

Remain did try and tell us what would happen with no deal. Screams of
project fear from leavers. But oddly no one predicted the present fiasco.


Just because you didnt predict the EU would be so difficult (to put it
mildly) doesnt mean others didnt.

The problem is, you and your fellow Remainers are convinced you know what
others, in particular Leavers, think / believe.

You focus all your bile and bigotry into trying to convince yourself that
we are wrong and you are blessed with infallibility.


Oh the irony. Classic outpourings of a left brainer.

That tells me you are not sure of your own position at all, no matter how
much you rant and rave.


Of course that's the case, because we were never ready to answer such
a question (the referendum poll) in the first place. We weren't ready
because the majority (the 2/3rds that didn't vote to Leave) didn't
have a reason to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally%E2%80%93Anne_test

The point is that the fanatic Brexiteers (as opposed to just people
who happened to vote Leave potentially) are the activists in this
procedure. They are the ones (and *only* the ones) who have changed us
from continuing with the status quo to doing *something else*, where
*no one* has any real idea of the consequences or final outcome.

The fact that we also have no bankable idea of how the status quo
might change in the future has nothing to do with it (because 'in', we
still have a say to name just one reason).

So, the fanatic Brexiteers either have some sort of vision into the
future, sufficiently strong / accurate that they see it as a no risk
change, or the are racist, Little Englander, reckless gamblers that
have a cause (getting rid of 'foreigners' in the case of the racists
etc) and with no limits to what that might cost *everyone*, as long as
they get their way ... without a tangible reason that would benefit
'most people' it can only be a fanatic cause, based on just a 'belief'
or prejudice.

Remainers (or those who didn't vote at all) don't have to justify
their choice of *inaction* (afa actively wanting us all to leave the
EU), the Brexiteers have to justify their choice *action* and so far,
they haven't (other than to themselves of course).

They haven't because they can't for the reasons I've given above.

So, rather than continuing to post lies and BS (we know harry can't
help it, so bad is his case), how about stating the unequivocal facts
that you (Brexiteers) must be aware of that would prove to 'most
people' that they *will* be better off out of the EU.

Failure to do so (and it's your obligation to do so to gain any
credibility whatsoever) will simply demonstrate further that you are
just reckless gamblers on a personal (often morally questionable)
crusade.

Cheers, T i m

p.s. The chances are you won't 'get' most of the above as it requires
a modicum of empathy and an understanding of what 'the people' (in
anything other than a raw percentage) means.
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On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 09:38:14 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 18/09/2019 03:18, jeikppkywk wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...


Unfortunately te EU and remainers are hanging onto our coat tails and
whining like a spoilt two year old that has lost its dummy.


For quite a few in the EU, they just believe in the EU project.


It all boils down to religion, in the end...


And now we get a glimpse into the truth behind the justification of
many fanatic Brexiteers.

Cheers, T i m
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On Tue, 17 Sep 2019 18:01:37 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

On 17/09/2019 10:38, harry wrote:


stop posting lies harry.


Then he would have to stop posting!

Cheers, T i m
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On 17:15 17 Sep 2019, Brian Reay wrote:

On 17/09/2019 16:07, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Brian Reay wrote:
The Remainers keep telling us what the Brexiteers (supposedly) think, so
why do you suddenly need to ask?


Perhaps the Remainers have come to their senses and realised just how
arrogant and stupid they look.


Odd really. Brexiteers are all so convinced a no deal exit is what the
people voted for. But very against a second referendum where that belief
could be tested.

I don't want a second referendum anymore than I wanted the first one. But
it does seem those who who did secretly believe it was a fluke.


There you go again.

Maybe you are uncertain why you voted the way you did. That doesn't mean
others are.


At the time of the referendum how did you manage to know those facts which
only emerged later? Such as details of the leaving deal, the arrangement for
the NI border (which no one knows, even now), the impact on daily life in
Britain, the amount of the divorce payment, and so on?

On the other hand, all Remainers knew in minute details what staying was like
because they were already living it.

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On 18/09/2019 09:52, jeikppkywk wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 18/09/2019 03:18, jeikppkywk wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...


Unfortunately te EU and remainers are hanging onto our coat tails
and whining like a spoilt two year old that has lost its dummy.

For quite a few in the EU, they just believe in the EU project.


It all boils down to religion, in the end...


Politics is nothing like religion.


Oh dear.

Holy Roman Empire.
Islamic Caliphate.
Communism.

Politics is EXACTLY like religion.

Especially on the Green'Red/Left/Eu side.




--
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This makes me unfit for the company of people of a Left persuasion, and
all women"


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On 17/09/2019 16:07, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
I don't want a second referendum anymore than I wanted the first one. But
it does seem those who who did secretly believe it was a fluke.


The Brexit supporters are against a second referendum quite simply because the Remain side would almost certainly win. Look at public opinion polls: all those published in the last 18 months show Remain ahead by several percentage points. Of course polls have errors but this consistent lead in all of them is above any likely error, and means Remain would almost certainly win in any re-run.

The reason is simple: in 3 years about 2 million electors have died, most of them elderly, and we know that about 75% of the elderly (those over 70_ voted to Leave. They have been replaced by about 2 million people in the 18-21 age group, who we know are in favour of Remain by 80 to 90%.

You may think that as people get older their views get more conservative and perhaps incline more towards Leave. But the limited evidence available suggests this is not true. One reason is that Leave voting is much more correlated with lack of education than with age: of course the 70+ group were young when only about 8% could go to college so it's hardly their fault that they never got a decent education. This means that many of them have the world-view of a little-Englander. Education does not seem to vanish with age and neither, as far as pollsters can tell, does being in favour of remaining in the EU.

Conclusion: the Leave side may have left it too late. Indeed if we left now it would be profoundly anti-democratic, as the majority of the population already don't want it and it will be hard to reverse. Even if nobody has changed their mind, the electorate as a whole has. Hence Boris's fanatical determination to leave as soon as possible. He knows it will be too late to do it any later.

If we do leave, I think there will be an inexorable rise in demand to rejoin within a few years. That will have left us all worse off.

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In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
In reality the vote boiled down to ever closer union or turning around
and walking away as fast as possible.


Making up history again? The vote was carried by existing immigration and
the threats of that escalating from Turkey.

Unfortunately te EU and remainers are hanging onto our coat tails and
whining like a spoilt two year old that has lost its dummy.


You mean they've come to a decision and are keeping to it? Unlike the UK
parliament who can agree on very little.

I do often wonder if you actually follow what's going on.

--
*I used to be a banker, but then I lost interest.*

Dave Plowman London SW
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On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 11:01:04 +0100, Pamela
wrote:

On 17:15 17 Sep 2019, Brian Reay wrote:

On 17/09/2019 16:07, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Brian Reay wrote:
The Remainers keep telling us what the Brexiteers (supposedly) think, so
why do you suddenly need to ask?

Perhaps the Remainers have come to their senses and realised just how
arrogant and stupid they look.

Odd really. Brexiteers are all so convinced a no deal exit is what the
people voted for. But very against a second referendum where that belief
could be tested.

I don't want a second referendum anymore than I wanted the first one. But
it does seem those who who did secretly believe it was a fluke.


There you go again.

Maybe you are uncertain why you voted the way you did. That doesn't mean
others are.


At the time of the referendum how did you manage to know those facts which
only emerged later? Such as details of the leaving deal, the arrangement for
the NI border (which no one knows, even now), the impact on daily life in
Britain, the amount of the divorce payment, and so on?


Of course he didn't and even if he did, he didn't consider them of
sufficient importance for *him* not to be confident that we should
*ALL* leave the EU.

On the other hand, all Remainers knew in minute details what staying was like
because they were already living it.


Quite, even if it should change in the future as we would be part of
that process ('of course').

See, 'most people' don't have any real understanding of the bigger
picture and therefore can't fully consider the cause and effect.

So, if they are ignorant / gullible enough to believe / quote the
'350M/w to the NHS instead' (when that sum has NEVER EVER been paid
to the EU by us), then who know what other assumptions they have made
from their partial understanding of things.

So 'what if' the amount we pay into the EU earns us far more, that
payment should be considered a shrewd investment (and keeping in mind
it's also 'a Union' and for good reasons).

Do the fanatic Brexiteers know that it's not a net gain? Have they
looked into all the other variables, where did they get their *facts*
from and where are their calculations?

More likely they wound themselves up on the spin and FUD and are now
foaming at the mouth abut their 'Grandad fought for us so we didn't
have to speak German' or that the retirement age in Greece is lower
than ours (like either are down to the EU).

If it wasn't for all the red mist in front of their eyes, they *might*
be able to consider *all* the facts, pro and con and come up with a
truly tangible and valid justification for their direction.

As yet, not *ONE* Brexiteer has ... they just repeat the same old
mantras that aren't even on the radar of the majority of the
population.

Cheers, T i m




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On 18/09/2019 11:16, Clive Page wrote:
On 17/09/2019 16:07, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
I don't want a second referendum anymore than I wanted the first one. But
it does seem those who who did secretly believe it was a fluke.


The Brexit supporters are against a second referendum quite simply
because the Remain side would almost certainly win.


Complete lie.


Look at public
opinion polls: all those published in the last 18 months show Remain
ahead by several percentage points.


Complete lie. TRhe opposite is true.

* Of course polls have errors but
this consistent lead in all of them is above any likely error, and means
Remain would almost certainly win in any re-run.

The reason is simple: in 3 years about 2 million electors have died,
most of them elderly, and we know that about 75% of the elderly (those
over 70_ voted to Leave. They have been replaced by about 2 million
people in the 18-21 age group, who we know are in favour of Remain by 80
to 90%.


Complete lie.

You may think that as people get older their views get more conservative
and perhaps incline more towards Leave.* But the limited evidence
available suggests this is not true.* One reason is that Leave voting is
much more correlated with lack of education than with age: of course the
70+ group were young when only about 8% could go to college so it's
hardly their fault that they never got a decent education.* This means
that many of them have the world-view of a little-Englander.* Education
does not seem to vanish with age and neither, as far as pollsters can
tell, does being in favour of remaining in the EU.

Complete lie.

Conclusion: the Leave side may have left it too late.* Indeed if we left
now it would be profoundly anti-democratic, as the majority of the
population already don't want it and it will be hard to reverse.* Even
if nobody has changed their mind, the electorate as a whole has.** Hence
Boris's fanatical determination to leave as soon as possible.* He knows
it will be too late to do it any later.

Complete lie.

If we do leave, I think there will be an inexorable rise in demand to
rejoin within a few years.* That will have left us all worse off.

Complete lie.


--
In todays liberal progressive conflict-free education system, everyone
gets full Marx.
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On 11:33 18 Sep 2019, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 18/09/2019 11:16, Clive Page wrote:
On 17/09/2019 16:07, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
I don't want a second referendum anymore than I wanted the first one.
But it does seem those who who did secretly believe it was a fluke.


The Brexit supporters are against a second referendum quite simply
because the Remain side would almost certainly win.


Complete lie.


So why not hold the second referendum?

Look at public
opinion polls: all those published in the last 18 months show Remain
ahead by several percentage points.


Complete lie. TRhe opposite is true.


Only in Daily Express polls.

Of course polls have errors but
this consistent lead in all of them is above any likely error, and
means Remain would almost certainly win in any re-run.

The reason is simple: in 3 years about 2 million electors have died,
most of them elderly, and we know that about 75% of the elderly (those
over 70_ voted to Leave. They have been replaced by about 2 million
people in the 18-21 age group, who we know are in favour of Remain by
80 to 90%.


Complete lie.


The demographics are shifting against Leave. As more young Remain voters
move through the age bands, Leavers will be a (literally) dying group.

You may think that as people get older their views get more
conservative and perhaps incline more towards Leave.* But the limited
evidence available suggests this is not true.* One reason is that
Leave voting is much more correlated with lack of education than with
age: of course the 70+ group were young when only about 8% could go to
college so it's hardly their fault that they never got a decent
education.* This means that many of them have the world-view of a
little-Englander.* Education does not seem to vanish with age and
neither, as far as pollsters can tell, does being in favour of
remaining in the EU.


Complete lie.


You wont be able to fool a more education generation with the simplistic
nonsense put forward by the Leave campaign.

Conclusion: the Leave side may have left it too late.* Indeed if we
left now it would be profoundly anti-democratic, as the majority of the
population already don't want it and it will be hard to reverse.* Even
if nobody has changed their mind, the electorate as a whole has.**
Hence Boris's fanatical determination to leave as soon as possible.*
He knows it will be too late to do it any later.


Complete lie.


Boris's real achievement has been to unite the opposition. It has made
his desparte to cut and run before they restrain him.

If we do leave, I think there will be an inexorable rise in demand to
rejoin within a few years.* That will have left us all worse off.

Complete lie.


All the Leaver work is set to be undone eventually. You can't fool all of
the people, all of the time.


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On Wednesday, 18 September 2019 12:14:45 UTC+1, Pamela wrote:
On 11:33 18 Sep 2019, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 18/09/2019 11:16, Clive Page wrote:
On 17/09/2019 16:07, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
I don't want a second referendum anymore than I wanted the first one.
But it does seem those who who did secretly believe it was a fluke.

The Brexit supporters are against a second referendum quite simply
because the Remain side would almost certainly win.


Complete lie.


So why not hold the second referendum?


or why hold a 2nd referendum ?

and if we do and remain win then that is one all so we'll need a 3rd referendum.

We only had one the last time in 1975.

But what does it tell you, if you were deciding who should put the bins out
and you agreed to toss a coin and your partner lost and said Lets make it best of 3 would you agree and if after that they lost and said lets make in best of 5 how many more tinmes would you toss the coin before you get the 'correct' result.



Look at public
opinion polls: all those published in the last 18 months show Remain
ahead by several percentage points.


Complete lie. TRhe opposite is true.


Only in Daily Express polls.


Most polls indicated that remain would win last time.
Perhaps we should never had the referendum and just do what the polls indocate.



Of course polls have errors but
this consistent lead in all of them is above any likely error, and
means Remain would almost certainly win in any re-run.

The reason is simple: in 3 years about 2 million electors have died,
most of them elderly, and we know that about 75% of the elderly (those
over 70_ voted to Leave. They have been replaced by about 2 million
people in the 18-21 age group, who we know are in favour of Remain by
80 to 90%.


Complete lie.


The demographics are shifting against Leave. As more young Remain voters
move through the age bands, Leavers will be a (literally) dying group.


There was a similar story last time, but what of those getting older
what makes you so sure they won't change from being a remainer to a leaver ?



You may think that as people get older their views get more
conservative and perhaps incline more towards Leave.* But the limited
evidence available suggests this is not true.* One reason is that
Leave voting is much more correlated with lack of education than with
age: of course the 70+ group were young when only about 8% could go to
college so it's hardly their fault that they never got a decent
education.* This means that many of them have the world-view of a
little-Englander.* Education does not seem to vanish with age and
neither, as far as pollsters can tell, does being in favour of
remaining in the EU.


Complete lie.


You wont be able to fool a more education generation with the simplistic
nonsense put forward by the Leave campaign.


There's no evidence they are more educated, unless yuo think carrying a knife is educated because your mates carry one.

I know most acadmic results are increasing but that's just a fudge we call it grade inflation, it's pretty easy to see how it works if you can be bothered.




Conclusion: the Leave side may have left it too late.* Indeed if we
left now it would be profoundly anti-democratic, as the majority of the
population already don't want it and it will be hard to reverse.* Even
if nobody has changed their mind, the electorate as a whole has.**
Hence Boris's fanatical determination to leave as soon as possible.*
He knows it will be too late to do it any later.


Complete lie.


Boris's real achievement has been to unite the opposition.


That's true but I'm not sure if that will be enough.

It has made
his desparte to cut and run before they restrain him.

If we do leave, I think there will be an inexorable rise in demand to
rejoin within a few years.* That will have left us all worse off.

Complete lie.


All the Leaver work is set to be undone eventually. You can't fool all of
the people, all of the time.


No but all you have to do is fool most of the people most of the time, or even a small section of time.
you just have to look at tha last referendum and if you don't understand that, then the 2nd referendum wonlt be much differnt.

Trump had similar succsess .



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On 13:00 18 Sep 2019, whisky-dave wrote:

On Wednesday, 18 September 2019 12:14:45 UTC+1, Pamela wrote:
On 11:33 18 Sep 2019, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 18/09/2019 11:16, Clive Page wrote:

SNIP

Look at public opinion polls: all those published in the last 18
months show Remain ahead by several percentage points.

Complete lie. TRhe opposite is true.


Only in Daily Express polls.


Most polls indicated that remain would win last time. Perhaps we should
never had the referendum and just do what the polls indocate.


Not according to th efacts. Early polls got it wrong but later ones were
much more accurate, just as you would expect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U...um_polling.svg


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In article ,
Brian Reay wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
bert wrote:
Odd really. Brexiteers are all so convinced a no deal exit is what the
people voted for. But very against a second referendum where that belief
could be tested.

Not at all. It's remainers who insist people didn't vote for a
no-deal brexit whereas in fact it was made perfectly clear during
the referendum campaign by both sides that it was a possible outcome
if negotiations did not succeed.


Really? Then there was no need for leave to tell us the EU would be a
pushover and give in to our every demand? They need us more than we
need them? And so on?

Remain did try and tell us what would happen with no deal. Screams of
project fear from leavers. But oddly no one predicted the present
fiasco.


Just because you didnt predict the EU would be so difficult (to put
it mildly) doesnt mean others didnt.


Not up to me to predict anything when being reasonably happy with the
status quo. Up to those who wanted change to say what exactly they wanted,
and how it is to be achieved. If they wished others to see their point if
view.

The problem is, you and your fellow Remainers are convinced you know what
others, in particular Leavers, think / believe.


And that is down to leavers not having anywhere near as united reasons to
leave as remain had to stay. If you can't agree among yourselves, how do
you except others to understand you?

You focus all your bile and bigotry into trying to convince yourself that
we are wrong and you are blessed with infallibility.


Perhaps being a teacher has made you think you can simply impose your
views on others? Rather than show them the method and way they were
arrived at?

That tells me you are not sure of your own position at all, no matter how
much you rant and rave.


Then I can add the inability to read and understand posts to your other
shortcomings.

--
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In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
In reality the vote boiled down to ever closer union or turning
around and walking away as fast as possible.


Or even walking away if anything actually happened that we didn't like.


Or using our veto as we had done before.

Not just run away because some bunch of anti eu people lied about
everything they could.


And seem to think the UK can stand up near alone to anyone in the world.
Just like WW2.

--
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Dave Plowman London SW
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In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/09/2019 03:18, jeikppkywk wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...


Unfortunately te EU and remainers are hanging onto our coat tails and
whining like a spoilt two year old that has lost its dummy.


For quite a few in the EU, they just believe in the EU project.


It all boils down to religion, in the end...


You are an expert on that too? Which brand do you follow?

--
*Men are from Earth, women are from Earth. Deal with it.

Dave Plowman London SW
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