I am investigating my options for getting the LAN to work as well as
poosible around our property. We are having quite a lot of changes
done at the moment (new shower room, balcony, etc.) and so some parts
of the existing cat5e plus WiFi will have to move and/or be replaced.

The 'existing' coverage is provided by the main VDSL router (Draytek
2860n) which provides WiFi for some of the house and a second Draytek
(2820n) with the WAN side turned off covering some/all of the rest.
There is then a length of cat5e draped through a tree and going to the
garage for the backup system and, thence, a TP-link outdoor access
point for more distant WiFi.

I'm considering using powerline networking for filling in some gaps
and/or replacing some of the more bodged cat5e connections. How good
can powerline networking be? I know I'm unlikely to get a good speed
over really long bits of mains wiring but if one uses more than one
powerline device will they 'chain' their connections to provide good
end-to-end working or are they not that clever?

My tests with a fairly basic pair of Tenda (supposedly Gigabit)
powerline devices suggest that they're only 'good' when used on a
single, or at least closely associated, circuits. However if I can
add more of them so that they 'chain' across the system that could
well be a reasonable solution, but I need to know if they can
interconnect like this. Does anyone know?

--
Chris Green
·

Chris Green wrote:

I am investigating my options for getting the LAN to work as well as
poosible around our property.

If you've got "work" going on now, including rewiring etc, I'd bite the
bullet and lay in enough ethernet cable (cat5e/cat6 your choice) to do
it properly, I know Brian and co dislike powerline for interference
reasons, but the real reason to avoid it, is that it's never as fast, or
as reliable.

On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:52:17 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

Chris Green wrote:

I am investigating my options for getting the LAN to work as well as
poosible around our property.

If you've got "work" going on now, including rewiring etc, I'd bite the
bullet and lay in enough ethernet cable (cat5e/cat6 your choice) to do
it properly,

Agreed.

I know Brian and co dislike powerline for interference
reasons,

Apparently.

but the real reason to avoid it, is that it's never as fast,

Not as always fast as wired, no, but often faster than WiFi under many
circumstances and generally a lot easier than drilling holes and
running cable. ;-)

or
as reliable.

Again, 'than cable', probably but I'd say more reliable than WiFi
under difficult circumstances and can be pretty reliable.

A mate has a long thin house and wanted wireless coverage over the
house for phones, tablets and laptops etc.

Whilst he was having some rework done, I got him to run Cat5e to key
locations but he wasn't able (at that point) to get cable though to
the rear addition. So, that area is covered using a pair of Powerline
adaptors (the remote with WiFi) and it has 'just worked' for a long
time now. In fact, the only times it hasn't worked is when the cable
feeding the end of the house failed!

Daughter has PL to a gaming PC in a remote bedroom in the flat and
that too has worked faultlessly (and after power outages etc).

But yes, I would always try to go for wired over anything else, given
the choice, but if it's not portable, PL can be pretty good.

Sister couldn't get reasonable performance (buffering) from a NowTV
box when using WiFi. Went to PL and it's been fine ever since.

Cheers, T i m

Chris Green wrote:
I am investigating my options for getting the LAN to work as well as
poosible around our property. We are having quite a lot of changes
done at the moment (new shower room, balcony, etc.) and so some parts
of the existing cat5e plus WiFi will have to move and/or be replaced.

The 'existing' coverage is provided by the main VDSL router (Draytek
2860n) which provides WiFi for some of the house and a second Draytek
(2820n) with the WAN side turned off covering some/all of the rest.
There is then a length of cat5e draped through a tree and going to the
garage for the backup system and, thence, a TP-link outdoor access
point for more distant WiFi.

I'm considering using powerline networking for filling in some gaps
and/or replacing some of the more bodged cat5e connections. How good
can powerline networking be? I know I'm unlikely to get a good speed
over really long bits of mains wiring but if one uses more than one
powerline device will they 'chain' their connections to provide good
end-to-end working or are they not that clever?

My tests with a fairly basic pair of Tenda (supposedly Gigabit)
powerline devices suggest that they're only 'good' when used on a
single, or at least closely associated, circuits. However if I can
add more of them so that they 'chain' across the system that could
well be a reasonable solution, but I need to know if they can
interconnect like this. Does anyone know?


As another alternative worth considering, how about a €œmesh€� Wi-Fi system?
We have the three node BT mesh system and are very happy with how it
reaches all parts of our 5 bedroom house. Its great having just a single
SSID and no faffing about telling mobile devices with access point to use
as you move around.

Not cheap but Ive absolutely no regrets about investing in the system.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Andy Burns wrote:
Chris Green wrote:

I am investigating my options for getting the LAN to work as well as
poosible around our property.

If you've got "work" going on now, including rewiring etc, I'd bite the
bullet and lay in enough ethernet cable (cat5e/cat6 your choice) to do
it properly, I know Brian and co dislike powerline for interference
reasons, but the real reason to avoid it, is that it's never as fast, or
as reliable.

Yes, I can/will do that for some areas but the more distant bits are
still a problem. The two links that I'd most like to consider the
powerline devices for a-

House to garage - as I said this is currently cat5e strung through
a tree which works OK but isn't very beautiful and is likely to
get broken rather easily. Burying s cable would be the ideal
solution but is rather OTT. As the garage is basically just for
the backup system speed is not that important. The electricity
meter and incomer are in the garage so the house is electrically
quite 'close'.

Garage to cabin/garden - the cabin has mains power, from the
garage, so if 'chained' powerline adapters work OK then the 'house
to garage' plus 'garage to cabin' approach would work well.

Finally, do any of the more reasonably priced 'mesh' systems have
wired interconnections between the mesh boxes? Just relying on the
WiFi to connect them is a bit hopeful in our house.

--
Chris Green
·

On 19/07/2019 10:52, Andy Burns wrote:
Chris Green wrote:

I am investigating my options for getting the LAN to work as well as
poosible around our property.

If you've got "work" going on now, including rewiring etc, I'd bite the
bullet and lay in enough ethernet cable (cat5e/cat6 your choice) to do
it properly,

Yes.

I know Brian and co dislike powerline for interference
reasons, but the real reason to avoid it, is that it's never as fast, or
as reliable.

I have found it faster and more reliable than wifi - for a single link
only, though.

There is one place where I never cabled - the kitchen. Powerlink gets
ethernet to that to run the telly and a wifi point.

But it is very much second best to proper cat 5/6 etc


--
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

Jonathan Swift.

On 19/07/2019 11:20, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:52:17 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

Chris Green wrote:

I am investigating my options for getting the LAN to work as well as
poosible around our property.

If you've got "work" going on now, including rewiring etc, I'd bite the
bullet and lay in enough ethernet cable (cat5e/cat6 your choice) to do
it properly, I know Brian and co dislike powerline for interference
reasons, but the real reason to avoid it, is that it's never as fast, or
as reliable.

Be prepared for machines falling off the network and the PL needing
cycling ...

never had that when using just two devices.

Always had that with Wifi..


--
€œThe fundamental cause of the trouble in the modern world today is that
the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt."

- Bertrand Russell

On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:52:17 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

If you've got "work" going on now, including rewiring etc, I'd bite the
bullet and lay in enough ethernet cable (cat5e/cat6 your choice) to do
it properly,

+1 cable is cheap. Getting access to install fit it latter is
expensive. Refurb of the house had two Cat5e and coax installed at
the diagonally opposite corners of a room across the corner with the
door. All run back to the "services" cupboard, where they are
terminated on a couple of 24 port patch panels, enabling easy
connection to switch ports etc. It's really nice want a bit of kit
there, run a shortish cable to a socket, patch it, done.

I know Brian and co dislike powerline for interference reasons, but the
real reason to avoid it, is that it's never as fast, or as reliable.

And I don't think the "relaying" requested works either, even of you
try and frig it by taking the out of one unit into the in of another.
If nothing else you have a transmitter right next toa receiver... I
believe it's also a bit unpredictable if it'll work between rings.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Tim+ wrote:
Chris Green wrote:
I am investigating my options for getting the LAN to work as well as
poosible around our property. We are having quite a lot of changes
done at the moment (new shower room, balcony, etc.) and so some parts
of the existing cat5e plus WiFi will have to move and/or be replaced.

The 'existing' coverage is provided by the main VDSL router (Draytek
2860n) which provides WiFi for some of the house and a second Draytek
(2820n) with the WAN side turned off covering some/all of the rest.
There is then a length of cat5e draped through a tree and going to the
garage for the backup system and, thence, a TP-link outdoor access
point for more distant WiFi.

I'm considering using powerline networking for filling in some gaps
and/or replacing some of the more bodged cat5e connections. How good
can powerline networking be? I know I'm unlikely to get a good speed
over really long bits of mains wiring but if one uses more than one
powerline device will they 'chain' their connections to provide good
end-to-end working or are they not that clever?

My tests with a fairly basic pair of Tenda (supposedly Gigabit)
powerline devices suggest that they're only 'good' when used on a
single, or at least closely associated, circuits. However if I can
add more of them so that they 'chain' across the system that could
well be a reasonable solution, but I need to know if they can
interconnect like this. Does anyone know?


As another alternative worth considering, how about a €œmesh€� Wi-Fi system?
We have the three node BT mesh system and are very happy with how it
reaches all parts of our 5 bedroom house. Its great having just a single
SSID and no faffing about telling mobile devices with access point to use
as you move around.

I've been considering it (see my other response). However, is the BT
mesh system interconnected by CAT5 or by WiFi? Our house isn't very
'WiFi transparent' so I think a wired interconnect mesh system would
make much more sense.

--
Chris Green
·

On Friday, July 19, 2019 at 11:33:04 AM UTC+1, Chris Green wrote:

Finally, do any of the more reasonably priced 'mesh' systems have
wired interconnections between the mesh boxes? Just relying on the
WiFi to connect them is a bit hopeful in our house.

--
Chris Green
·

I have the BT mesh system and have been very happy with it.

I have each device (3) connected via ethernet and spread throughout the house to give complete coverage.

Alan

Chris Green wrote:
Tim+ wrote:
Chris Green wrote:
I am investigating my options for getting the LAN to work as well as
poosible around our property. We are having quite a lot of changes
done at the moment (new shower room, balcony, etc.) and so some parts
of the existing cat5e plus WiFi will have to move and/or be replaced.

The 'existing' coverage is provided by the main VDSL router (Draytek
2860n) which provides WiFi for some of the house and a second Draytek
(2820n) with the WAN side turned off covering some/all of the rest.
There is then a length of cat5e draped through a tree and going to the
garage for the backup system and, thence, a TP-link outdoor access
point for more distant WiFi.

I'm considering using powerline networking for filling in some gaps
and/or replacing some of the more bodged cat5e connections. How good
can powerline networking be? I know I'm unlikely to get a good speed
over really long bits of mains wiring but if one uses more than one
powerline device will they 'chain' their connections to provide good
end-to-end working or are they not that clever?

My tests with a fairly basic pair of Tenda (supposedly Gigabit)
powerline devices suggest that they're only 'good' when used on a
single, or at least closely associated, circuits. However if I can
add more of them so that they 'chain' across the system that could
well be a reasonable solution, but I need to know if they can
interconnect like this. Does anyone know?


As another alternative worth considering, how about a €œmesh€� Wi-Fi system?
We have the three node BT mesh system and are very happy with how it
reaches all parts of our 5 bedroom house. Its great having just a single
SSID and no faffing about telling mobile devices with access point to use
as you move around.

I've been considering it (see my other response). However, is the BT
mesh system interconnected by CAT5 or by WiFi? Our house isn't very
'WiFi transparent' so I think a wired interconnect mesh system would
make much more sense.


It interconnects by Wi-Fi. What you need to do is find someone local who
has the system and then borrow it for a trial. It may not be possible of
course but we lent ours to a friend to €œtry before he bought€�.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Chris Green wrote:
Tim+ wrote:
Chris Green wrote:
I am investigating my options for getting the LAN to work as well as
poosible around our property. We are having quite a lot of changes
done at the moment (new shower room, balcony, etc.) and so some parts
of the existing cat5e plus WiFi will have to move and/or be replaced.

The 'existing' coverage is provided by the main VDSL router (Draytek
2860n) which provides WiFi for some of the house and a second Draytek
(2820n) with the WAN side turned off covering some/all of the rest.
There is then a length of cat5e draped through a tree and going to the
garage for the backup system and, thence, a TP-link outdoor access
point for more distant WiFi.

I'm considering using powerline networking for filling in some gaps
and/or replacing some of the more bodged cat5e connections. How good
can powerline networking be? I know I'm unlikely to get a good speed
over really long bits of mains wiring but if one uses more than one
powerline device will they 'chain' their connections to provide good
end-to-end working or are they not that clever?

My tests with a fairly basic pair of Tenda (supposedly Gigabit)
powerline devices suggest that they're only 'good' when used on a
single, or at least closely associated, circuits. However if I can
add more of them so that they 'chain' across the system that could
well be a reasonable solution, but I need to know if they can
interconnect like this. Does anyone know?


As another alternative worth considering, how about a €œmesh€� Wi-Fi system?
We have the three node BT mesh system and are very happy with how it
reaches all parts of our 5 bedroom house. Its great having just a single
SSID and no faffing about telling mobile devices with access point to use
as you move around.

I've been considering it (see my other response). However, is the BT
mesh system interconnected by CAT5 or by WiFi? Our house isn't very
'WiFi transparent' so I think a wired interconnect mesh system would
make much more sense.


Just seen Alans reply. As he says you can link all the nodes back to the
router by cable but as each node only has a single socket, you cant
daisy-chain the cable, you have to have a radial layout.

Maybe you could do something with switches to reduce cabling though. I
dunno. ;-)

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

"Chris Green" wrote in message
...
I am investigating my options for getting the LAN to work as well as
poosible around our property. We are having quite a lot of changes
done at the moment (new shower room, balcony, etc.) and so some parts
of the existing cat5e plus WiFi will have to move and/or be replaced.

The 'existing' coverage is provided by the main VDSL router (Draytek
2860n) which provides WiFi for some of the house and a second Draytek
(2820n) with the WAN side turned off covering some/all of the rest.
There is then a length of cat5e draped through a tree and going to the
garage for the backup system and, thence, a TP-link outdoor access
point for more distant WiFi.

I'm considering using powerline networking for filling in some gaps
and/or replacing some of the more bodged cat5e connections. How good
can powerline networking be? I know I'm unlikely to get a good speed
over really long bits of mains wiring but if one uses more than one
powerline device will they 'chain' their connections to provide good
end-to-end working or are they not that clever?

My tests with a fairly basic pair of Tenda (supposedly Gigabit)
powerline devices suggest that they're only 'good' when used on a
single, or at least closely associated, circuits. However if I can
add more of them so that they 'chain' across the system that could
well be a reasonable solution, but I need to know if they can
interconnect like this. Does anyone know?

the devils work .....don't use them......

In article , Andy Burns
writes
Chris Green wrote:

I am investigating my options for getting the LAN to work as well as
poosible around our property.

If you've got "work" going on now, including rewiring etc, I'd bite the
bullet and lay in enough ethernet cable (cat5e/cat6 your choice) to do
it properly, I know Brian and co dislike powerline for interference
reasons, but the real reason to avoid it, is that it's never as fast,
or as reliable.
Whenever I've looked at the small print they have all said they must be
on the same circuit.
--
bert

On Friday, 19 July 2019 12:48:33 UTC+1, bert wrote:
Whenever I've looked at the small print they have all said they must be
on the same circuit.

The other day on Youtube or a Web page I saw someone who'd measured the speeds.

On the same MCB (circuit) is preferred.

Across two MCBs but on the same RCD (busbar) performance drops, but still useful.

Across two RCDs (on different busbars) performance falls *markedly*.

Most houses will have one smoke detector circuit throughout the whole house for interlinking purposes, so that might be one to put the powerlines on (with the caveat that most powerline adapters have built-in 13A plugs and 13A sockets ought not to be put on lighting circuits).

The other thing is that most 'mesh' or multi-access-point systems need some form of proprietary controller software to kick user devices off a weak ap and force them to find a stronger one -- most consumer devices don't auto-search for a better point and reconnect. *Reducing* wifi power output on the access points can paradoxically give better performance, as it encourages the devices to drop off the weak signal and reconnect to a stronger.

I think various options of OpenWRT will handle this and are a lot cheaper than a proprietary solution - BT Hub 5a or Plusnet Hub One are available for peanuts online and someone on ebay will reflash them for £13 inc return postage (which saves soldering and using a TTL serial connection to rewrite the boot loader).

Owain

bert wrote:

Whenever I've looked at the small print they have all said they must be
on the same circuit.

Ish.

A few years ago dad wanted to use an old PC down in his pottery shed,
well out of wifi range from the router at the front of the house, so we
tried a powerline adapter from the ring in the house, via the CU which
is fuses only, through some henley blocks, down about 50m of 16mm^2 SWA
into the shed, through a small CU with MCBs and another wired powerline
unit off the ring within the shed.

It was at best marginal, so he stopped using it.

Recently he wanted a hive camera looking at part of the garden, I bought
a wifi-ap-powerline unit, and tried plugging it into the ring at the
back of the house, but the wifi was still weak to the camera location,
so I tried the powerline wifi unit on a short radial from the CU in the
shed, it's only a few feet to the camera, so the wifi signal is strong,
the powerline unit still occasionally drops out while viewing the
camera, but not that bad.

at the same time, he gets a reliable connection over powerline to a
wired PC in the house.

wrote:
On Friday, 19 July 2019 12:48:33 UTC+1, bert wrote:
Whenever I've looked at the small print they have all said they must be
on the same circuit.

The other day on Youtube or a Web page I saw someone who'd measured the speeds.

On the same MCB (circuit) is preferred.

Across two MCBs but on the same RCD (busbar) performance drops, but still useful.

Across two RCDs (on different busbars) performance falls *markedly*.

Most houses will have one smoke detector circuit throughout the whole house
for interlinking purposes, so that might be one to put the powerlines on
(with the caveat that most powerline adapters have built-in 13A plugs and
13A sockets ought not to be put on lighting circuits).

"Most houses ..." seems a little hopeful! :-) I think in reality very
few houses even have interlinked smoke detectors and there isn't a
requirement for interlinked (wired or radio) alarms to be on the same
or dedicated circuit.

The other thing is that most 'mesh' or multi-access-point systems need
some form of proprietary controller software to kick user devices off a
weak ap and force them to find a stronger one -- most consumer devices
don't auto-search for a better point and reconnect. *Reducing* wifi power
output on the access points can paradoxically give better performance,
as it encourages the devices to drop off the weak signal and reconnect
to a stronger.

Isn't the 'move client to a stronger access point signal' software in
the mesh access points? That's the whole point surely.


I think various options of OpenWRT will handle this and are a lot cheaper
than a proprietary solution - BT Hub 5a or Plusnet Hub One are available
for peanuts online and someone on ebay will reflash them for £13 inc return
postage (which saves soldering and using a TTL serial connection to rewrite
the boot loader).

I ran OpenWRT on a Mikrotik router for quite a while but didn't find
it a very practical router OS in the real world. Not that I've found
any proprietary ones much better I must admit.

--
Chris Green
·

On 19/07/2019 10:38, Chris Green wrote:

I am investigating my options for getting the LAN to work as well as
poosible around our property. We are having quite a lot of changes
done at the moment (new shower room, balcony, etc.) and so some parts
of the existing cat5e plus WiFi will have to move and/or be replaced.

The 'existing' coverage is provided by the main VDSL router (Draytek
2860n) which provides WiFi for some of the house and a second Draytek
(2820n) with the WAN side turned off covering some/all of the rest.
There is then a length of cat5e draped through a tree and going to the
garage for the backup system and, thence, a TP-link outdoor access
point for more distant WiFi.

I'm considering using powerline networking for filling in some gaps
and/or replacing some of the more bodged cat5e connections. How good
can powerline networking be? I know I'm unlikely to get a good speed
over really long bits of mains wiring but if one uses more than one
powerline device will they 'chain' their connections to provide good
end-to-end working or are they not that clever?

My tests with a fairly basic pair of Tenda (supposedly Gigabit)
powerline devices suggest that they're only 'good' when used on a
single, or at least closely associated, circuits. However if I can
add more of them so that they 'chain' across the system that could
well be a reasonable solution, but I need to know if they can
interconnect like this. Does anyone know?

I am not aware of any that "mesh" as such. Ones of compatible speeds
will interoperate on the same set of wires - but I think its basically a
peer to peer network. (How many devices you can have will depend on the
chipset in use. Incompatible ones can share the same mains wiring, but
form separate non connected networks).

I find them good on a single circuit and not bad between circuits on the
same CU. Generally good for getting round the limitations of wifi, or
forming the backbone of connectivity to wifi access points. The more
devices and circuits you go though however the poorer the connectivity
speed will get. For example, I have a set of "hi power" homeplug devices
that I link to my workshop with. That goes comms cabinet circuit MCB,
RCD in main CU, then to garden/outbuilding CU, through its RCD to a HRC
fuse carrier, cable to Garage CU, via RCD, and MCB. It just about works
- speed is fairly slow and it can only manage an "orange" connection
status on the mains side...

Having said that, CAT5 is better if its available. Homeplug tends to be
better than "normal" wifi around a building unless it has multiple
access points. Not tried meshing wifi to see how that compares, that
might tip the balance, although homeplug is pretty cheap - and you can
get homeplug devices with built in wifi APs as well.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 19/07/2019 11:32, Chris Green wrote:

Finally, do any of the more reasonably priced 'mesh' systems have
wired interconnections between the mesh boxes? Just relying on the
WiFi to connect them is a bit hopeful in our house.

You don't need a mesh system for wired interconnects - ordinary APs will
do for that.

The whole point of mesh is it establishes potentially multiple
connections between the devices giving redundancy and added throughput.
So to work well you need enough of them in a layout that allows them to
actually mesh rather than forming a long chain.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:
On 19/07/2019 11:32, Chris Green wrote:

Finally, do any of the more reasonably priced 'mesh' systems have
wired interconnections between the mesh boxes? Just relying on the
WiFi to connect them is a bit hopeful in our house.

You don't need a mesh system for wired interconnects - ordinary APs will
do for that.

The whole point of mesh is it establishes potentially multiple
connections between the devices giving redundancy and added throughput.
So to work well you need enough of them in a layout that allows them to
actually mesh rather than forming a long chain.

But doesn't mesh mean that client devices will 'roam' transparently,
whereas adding wired WiFi access points won't do this (i.e. it's down
to the client, or me, to change WiFi connection).

--
Chris Green
·

John Rumm wrote:

I am not aware of any that "mesh" as such. Ones of compatible speeds
will interoperate on the same set of wires

I think the powerline units equate to the ports on an old style repeater
hub with the mains cable being their stretched out "bus"

On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 15:07:42 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

John Rumm wrote:

I am not aware of any that "mesh" as such. Ones of compatible speeds
will interoperate on the same set of wires

I think the powerline units equate to the ports on an old style repeater
hub with the mains cable being their stretched out "bus"

To add to that, I think the ports might all look like basic 'hub'
(bridging, rather than repeating) ports, via the bus as you said?

Cheers, T i m

John Rumm wrote:
On 19/07/2019 11:32, Chris Green wrote:

Finally, do any of the more reasonably priced 'mesh' systems have
wired interconnections between the mesh boxes? Just relying on the
WiFi to connect them is a bit hopeful in our house.

You don't need a mesh system for wired interconnects - ordinary APs will
do for that.

The whole point of mesh is it establishes potentially multiple
connections between the devices giving redundancy and added throughput.
So to work well you need enough of them in a layout that allows them to
actually mesh rather than forming a long chain.



Dont forget the advantage of a single SSID for wireless connection.
Thats been a huge boon for us.

Tim


--
Please don't feed the trolls

Chris Green wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
On 19/07/2019 11:32, Chris Green wrote:

Finally, do any of the more reasonably priced 'mesh' systems have
wired interconnections between the mesh boxes? Just relying on the
WiFi to connect them is a bit hopeful in our house.

You don't need a mesh system for wired interconnects - ordinary APs will
do for that.

The whole point of mesh is it establishes potentially multiple
connections between the devices giving redundancy and added throughput.
So to work well you need enough of them in a layout that allows them to
actually mesh rather than forming a long chain.

But doesn't mesh mean that client devices will 'roam' transparently,
whereas adding wired WiFi access points won't do this (i.e. it's down
to the client, or me, to change WiFi connection).


Exactly.

Before we had the mesh system we had to have a homeplug Wi-Fi access point
in our bedroom to get adequate coverage there. The problem was though that
our bedroom is at the front of the house and our phones would always latch
on to it whenever we drove into the driveway. Wed find then that when
when we passed trough to the back of he house and our main living areas,
our phones would hang on like grim death to the bedroom access point
despite a much stronger signal from the router in the hall downstairs.

We were always having to manually switch our access from one to the other
manually. If got to be a real pain in the arse.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 14:39:48 +0100, Chris Green wrote:

John Rumm wrote:
On 19/07/2019 11:32, Chris Green wrote:

Finally, do any of the more reasonably priced 'mesh' systems have
wired interconnections between the mesh boxes? Just relying on the
WiFi to connect them is a bit hopeful in our house.

You don't need a mesh system for wired interconnects - ordinary APs will
do for that.

The whole point of mesh is it establishes potentially multiple
connections between the devices giving redundancy and added throughput.
So to work well you need enough of them in a layout that allows them to
actually mesh rather than forming a long chain.

But doesn't mesh mean that client devices will 'roam' transparently,
whereas adding wired WiFi access points won't do this (i.e. it's down
to the client, or me, to change WiFi connection).

Wouldn't you simply set the SSID and password on all AP's to the same
so that clients could / would reconnect to the loudest AP as required
(when reconnecting) albeit not the same handover as on a full system?

No user intervention required though or was that what you were talking
about above?

Cheers, T i m

On 19/07/2019 10:52, Andy Burns wrote:
Chris Green wrote:

I am investigating my options for getting the LAN to work as well as
poosible around our property.

If you've got "work" going on now, including rewiring etc, I'd bite the
bullet and lay in enough ethernet cable (cat5e/cat6 your choice) to do
it properly, I know Brian and co dislike powerline for interference
reasons, but the real reason to avoid it, is that it's never as fast, or
as reliable.

Also as current practice moves away from ring mains to radial systems
(or at least smaller rings) with perhaps multiple RCBOs you may find
that performance becomes limited because the couls in the RCBOs filter
the signal...

Dave

On 19/07/2019 12:37, bert wrote:
In article , Andy Burns
writes
Chris Green wrote:

I am investigating my options for getting the LAN to work as well as
poosible around our property.

If you've got "work" going on now, including rewiring etc, I'd bite
the bullet and lay in enough ethernet cable (cat5e/cat6 your choice)
to do it properly, I know Brian and co dislike powerline for
interference reasons, but the real reason to avoid it, is that it's
never as fast, or as reliable.
Whenever I've looked at the small print they have all said they must be
on the same circuit.

They do work across some MCBS. IIRC mine is working across one. Maybe.
Not sure



--
"When one man dies it's a tragedy. When thousands die it's statistics."

Josef Stalin

On 19/07/2019 13:15, wrote:
*Reducing* wifi power output on the access points can paradoxically
give better performance, as it encourages the devices to drop off the
weak signal and reconnect to a stronger.

And stay on the stronger more remote devicees and not reconnect to the
nearer ones that have less multipath?

More ridiculous myths

--
"When one man dies it's a tragedy. When thousands die it's statistics."

Josef Stalin

On 19/07/2019 15:07, Andy Burns wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

I am not aware of any that "mesh" as such. Ones of compatible speeds
will interoperate on the same set of wires

I think the powerline units equate to the ports on an old style repeater
hub with the mains cable being their stretched out "bus"

Basically yes.

What is technically known as a 'bridge'


--
"When one man dies it's a tragedy. When thousands die it's statistics."

Josef Stalin

On 19/07/2019 15:48, Tim+ wrote:
Dont forget the advantage of a single SSID for wireless connection.
Thats been a huge boon for us.

Dont forget the advantage of a single SSID for clueless idiots..


--
The lifetime of any political organisation is about three years before
its been subverted by the people it tried to warn you about.

Anon.

T i m wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

I think the powerline units equate to the ports on an old style repeater
hub with the mains cable being their stretched out "bus"

To add to that, I think the ports might all look like basic 'hub'
(bridging, rather than repeating) ports, via the bus as you said?

I think of "hubs" as repeaters, not as switches (aka multiport bridges)
but it's loose terminology

except the odd-ball dual speed hubs which are a 10Mb hub and a 100Mb hub
in a box, with a 2 port switch between them.

T i m wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 14:39:48 +0100, Chris Green wrote:

John Rumm wrote:
On 19/07/2019 11:32, Chris Green wrote:

Finally, do any of the more reasonably priced 'mesh' systems have
wired interconnections between the mesh boxes? Just relying on the
WiFi to connect them is a bit hopeful in our house.

You don't need a mesh system for wired interconnects - ordinary APs will
do for that.

The whole point of mesh is it establishes potentially multiple
connections between the devices giving redundancy and added throughput.
So to work well you need enough of them in a layout that allows them to
actually mesh rather than forming a long chain.

But doesn't mesh mean that client devices will 'roam' transparently,
whereas adding wired WiFi access points won't do this (i.e. it's down
to the client, or me, to change WiFi connection).

Wouldn't you simply set the SSID and password on all AP's to the same
so that clients could / would reconnect to the loudest AP as required
(when reconnecting) albeit not the same handover as on a full system?

No user intervention required though or was that what you were talking
about above?

I think the difference is that with mesh the handover is forced/encouraged
by the mesh 'routers' whereas otherwise it's down to the client system
and they don't, in general, move from WiFi to WiFi very easily.

--
Chris Green
·

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

I think the powerline units equate to the ports on an old style
repeater hub with the mains cable being their stretched out "bus"

Basically yes.

What is technically known as a 'bridge'

do you think the powerline units have learn/forward/drop capability?

I assumed they just repeated everything they got, onto the wire, in-case
something else might want to see it, thought they were dumb? IEEE 1901
doesn't say much on the subject, but does say it uses CSMA/CD i.e. the
bad old thin-wire ethernet single collision domain detection.

Tim+ wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
On 19/07/2019 11:32, Chris Green wrote:

Finally, do any of the more reasonably priced 'mesh' systems have
wired interconnections between the mesh boxes? Just relying on the
WiFi to connect them is a bit hopeful in our house.

You don't need a mesh system for wired interconnects - ordinary APs will
do for that.

The whole point of mesh is it establishes potentially multiple
connections between the devices giving redundancy and added throughput.
So to work well you need enough of them in a layout that allows them to
actually mesh rather than forming a long chain.



Dont forget the advantage of a single SSID for wireless connection.
Thats been a huge boon for us.

You can have a single SSID without mesh. It's the way I have my two
Draytek routers set up, both have the same SSID and password. Clients
do move from one to the other without my intervention but not as
easily as one would hope.

--
Chris Green
·

Chris Green wrote:
Tim+ wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
On 19/07/2019 11:32, Chris Green wrote:

Finally, do any of the more reasonably priced 'mesh' systems have
wired interconnections between the mesh boxes? Just relying on the
WiFi to connect them is a bit hopeful in our house.

You don't need a mesh system for wired interconnects - ordinary APs will
do for that.

The whole point of mesh is it establishes potentially multiple
connections between the devices giving redundancy and added throughput.
So to work well you need enough of them in a layout that allows them to
actually mesh rather than forming a long chain.



Dont forget the advantage of a single SSID for wireless connection.
Thats been a huge boon for us.

You can have a single SSID without mesh. It's the way I have my two
Draytek routers set up, both have the same SSID and password. Clients
do move from one to the other without my intervention but not as
easily as one would hope.


Well yes, but the downside of using the same SSID with multiple access
points is that you cant quickly see which access point your device is
pigheadedly sticking with rather than migrating to a stronger one. ;-)

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 16:42:08 +0100, Chris Green wrote:

snip

Wouldn't you simply set the SSID and password on all AP's to the same
so that clients could / would reconnect to the loudest AP as required
(when reconnecting) albeit not the same handover as on a full system?

No user intervention required though or was that what you were talking
about above?

I think the difference is that with mesh the handover is forced/encouraged
by the mesh 'routers' whereas otherwise it's down to the client system
and they don't, in general, move from WiFi to WiFi very easily.

Yes, that was my thought when you said what you did. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 16:31:05 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

T i m wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

I think the powerline units equate to the ports on an old style repeater
hub with the mains cable being their stretched out "bus"

To add to that, I think the ports might all look like basic 'hub'
(bridging, rather than repeating) ports, via the bus as you said?

I think of "hubs" as repeaters, not as switches (aka multiport bridges)

Agreed.

but it's loose terminology

Or can be used loosely. ;-)

The first commercial network I installed used an 8 port Thin Ethernet
Repeater where there was just bridging between each of the ports.
Therefore, any traffic between say a client and server on one port
would impact the performance between similar on another [1]. But hey,
10Mbps was a step up from the 1Mbps of the Corvus Omninet (One) system
it grew out of. ;-)

Each segment could be manually isolated via a front panel mounted
switch. ;-)


except the odd-ball dual speed hubs which are a 10Mb hub and a 100Mb hub
in a box, with a 2 port switch between them.

Yah.

Cheers, T i m

[1] It was surprising how quickly / well some of the users could
detect if I was say running a server backup during office hours. ;-)

T i m wrote:

The first commercial network I installed used an 8 port Thin Ethernet
Repeater

DEMPR?

On 19/07/2019 16:43, Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

I think the powerline units equate to the ports on an old style
repeater hub with the mains cable being their stretched out "bus"

Basically yes.

What is technically known as a 'bridge'

do you think the powerline units have learn/forward/drop capability?

I assumed they just repeated everything they got, onto the wire, in-case
something else might want to see it, thought they were dumb?Â* IEEE 1901
doesn't say much on the subject, but does say it uses CSMA/CD i.e. the
bad old thin-wire ethernet single collision domain detection.

It is essentially thin wire ethernet using the mains instead of coax.

OK as a P to P link but no good as a whole network




--
€œIdeas are inherently conservative. They yield not to the attack of
other ideas but to the massive onslaught of circumstance"

- John K Galbraith

On 19/07/2019 16:54, Tim+ wrote:
Chris Green wrote:
Tim+ wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
On 19/07/2019 11:32, Chris Green wrote:

Finally, do any of the more reasonably priced 'mesh' systems have
wired interconnections between the mesh boxes? Just relying on the
WiFi to connect them is a bit hopeful in our house.

You don't need a mesh system for wired interconnects - ordinary APs will
do for that.

The whole point of mesh is it establishes potentially multiple
connections between the devices giving redundancy and added throughput.
So to work well you need enough of them in a layout that allows them to
actually mesh rather than forming a long chain.



Dont forget the advantage of a single SSID for wireless connection.
Thats been a huge boon for us.

You can have a single SSID without mesh. It's the way I have my two
Draytek routers set up, both have the same SSID and password. Clients
do move from one to the other without my intervention but not as
easily as one would hope.


Well yes, but the downside of using the same SSID with multiple access
points is that you cant quickly see which access point your device is
pigheadedly sticking with rather than migrating to a stronger one. ;-)

well you can. Look at the MAC address.

In any case it lead to 'route flap' as the PC swapped between the two
signals interminably.

Now I have three ssids on the three furthest apart channels and let the
device pick the strongest. Mostly it does, since the places I am in tend
to favour one over the other two, massively.





Tim



--
In a Time of Universal Deceit, Telling the Truth Is a Revolutionary Act.

- George Orwell