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On 10/07/2019 09:28, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 02:08:17 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

For those still following along, I will give a quick summary of what we
know now...

So this is not a WEP/WPA issue.


And some were so convinced it was. ;-)

actually connected without any difficulty.

What it does have is a DHCP problem after having authenticated on the
wifi.


And we know DHCP works over Ethernet.

If I manually assign an IP in the correct subnet, then it works
ok.


Inc DNS etc?


I manually set DNS - none of the DHCP parameters were being set. It was
timing out and defaulting to a APIPA style 169.254.n.n address, with no
default gateway or DNS server addresses.

is not a useable solution for the use case required.


Mobile netbook ... I'd still be interested to see if it connects
wirelessly to *another* network.


Indeed, but waiting on a suitable neighbour to return from hols before
we can check that.

(Mobile is pre smartphone era)


The router configuration and DHCP setup is fine (and other wifi devices
have connected and DHCPed ok)


I'd be interested to see if that netbook could connect to that router
with Linux. ;-)


Interesting, but not useful.

(its a fairly common Atheros AR2427 wifi adaptor)

This could be related to the issues addressed in KB953761 (DHCP options
not recognised, when sever includes option 43). However that hotfix does
not seem to have done it initially at least, although I am currently
clarifying an issue on that.


And it did connect to that router previously, possibly before VM
rolled out an update?


Yup.

Can I think you for doing what this group was known for, helping
people in the real use of the word. ;-)


This is one of those cases where its less effort to try and fix it, than
to try and explain how to fix it. (especially when there are competing
methodologies!)


Cheers, T i m

p.s. Just a thought given your findings, was there a 3rd party
Firewall on there?


Looks like just the standard WinXP SP3 one.


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On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 17:21:02 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

snip

Most corporate desktops are built on
OS+Browser+Outlook+Word+Excel(+Powerpoint). If that could be reliably
moved to a Linux distro, you could move a lot of regular users off
Microsoft.


Libre office is pretty much all there. Doesn't do meetings an calendars
. Thunderbird does but not sure about interfacing with others


And Word can Track Changes, again important in many organisations.

Cheers, T i m
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On 10/07/2019 10:52, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 09:37:32 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

snip

I'd be interested to see if that netbook could connect to that router
with Linux. ;-)


Doesn't really get anywhere if the O/P wants XP ...


Not really the goal though Andy [1]. It would be to test to see if the
hardware will *still* connect to the VM Hub *now*, indicating that it
is possible and so there may be some mileage in checking say WiFi
drivers (assuming John didn't etc)


I did. It was running the latest edition offered by ASUS for that
machine, but I also tried a later offering from Qualcomm.


--
Cheers,

John.

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On 10/07/2019 11:37, Andy Burns wrote:
T i m wrote:

So, what is the cause of the problem then?


If John and the O/P have put it to bed, it no longer matters,


Not quite to bed - the OP is still trying a few additional things I have
suggested. We are also waiting for access to anther network to try to
connect to.

some DHCP
clash between the VM hub and the ancient XP network stack ...


It seems that way. Its very similar to the parameter 43 problem that
used to bite XP at one point. Although IIRC that would also cause a DHCP
fail on Ethernet as well.

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John.

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On 10/07/2019 11:14, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 02:08:17 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 09/07/2019 21:56, ss wrote:
On 08/07/2019 19:56, ss wrote:
Ok will try and ring tomorrow, it did run on the ethernet yesterday.

Update:

I think I can close this off now. The netbook has been investigated in
depth by remote by J Rumm for over an hour, the situation is still not
resolvedÂ* and looks like winxp is likely the issue. I am confident that
all the contributions by others were covered by John, I say confident
in as much I havent a clue to most of what he was looking at.

Anyhow I do thank you all for your contributionsÂ* and a special thanks
to John for the time taken to investigate it for me.


For those still following along, I will give a quick summary of what we
know now...

So this is not a WEP/WPA issue. WinXP was correctly identifying WPA, and
actually connected without any difficulty.

What it does have is a DHCP problem after having authenticated on the
wifi. If I manually assign an IP in the correct subnet, then it works
ok. However that is not a useable solution for the use case required.

The router configuration and DHCP setup is fine (and other wifi devices
have connected and DHCPed ok)

This could be related to the issues addressed in KB953761 (DHCP options
not recognised, when sever includes option 43). However that hotfix does
not seem to have done it initially at least, although I am currently
clarifying an issue on that.


Well troll hunters will be upset.

For some reason, I wonder if there's anyway of getting the workstation to
join a domain, and then leave it ? I have the vaguest of memories about
issues with XP images when cloned across a company I worked for that
required them to join/leave a domain to do something to "set" the
networking to make it unique.


ISTR there were (apparently mythical[1]) issues with cloned SIDs on a
domain... I don't recall a network related one though.

[1]

https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/...sprep-matters/

(I suppose I could create a VPN from the XP box back here ad join it to
a domain controller running in a VM, but I am sceptical that will solve
the problem)

Which leads to another question ... there's nothing else on the network
that's doing a DHCP job is there ?


The router could see a total of three devices that had DHCPed, a couple
of SWMBO's iThings, and the Eee's ethernet.

I know WinXP/NT Server 4 networks
could be jammed if another DHCP server popped up from nowhere. Which used
to happen a lot (in those days) as salespeople carried NT4 Server laptops
and their IT guys never turned off DHCP. So when they connected to our
network everything barfed.


Yup Win server really does like to be master of all things DHCP and DNS,
that's for sure!


--
Cheers,

John.

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On 10/07/2019 16:54, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 10/07/2019 15:10, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 13:03:15 +0100, T i m wrote:

The thing is, it's going to take 'something special' to sway enough
people away from Windows (or Apple / OSX to a lesser degree) and you
aren't going to do that with something that at best can be a 'poor
alternative' [1] to Windows (/OSX). ;-(


I still maintain the killer Linux app would be a drop-in for Outlook.
Mysterious the one application no one in linux land has ever really
bothered with.

There are a hell of a lot of corporate desktops that could be replaced
with Linux when that never happens ... (they've had 20 years).

apart from email, what does outlook do?


Talk nicely to Exchange based email systems. Allow configuration and
setting of *server* side things like sophisticated mail filtering, and
very easy to setup and use "out of office" notifications. Also calendar
integration etc.

(there are also things its crap at - like it seems unable to use roaming
profiles with IMAP mailboxes).


--
Cheers,

John.

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On 10/07/2019 11:45, dennis@home wrote:

It is quite possible that so many sites have dropped support for really
old versions of IE so they just don't work any more.


Yup, many things that go https by default also require security levels
not provide for in IE6 to 8, as pre-loaded on WinXP boxes.

(you can usually get a more recent version of firefox going though)


--
Cheers,

John.

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On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 23:38:48 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 10/07/2019 10:52, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 09:37:32 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

snip

I'd be interested to see if that netbook could connect to that router
with Linux. ;-)

Doesn't really get anywhere if the O/P wants XP ...


Not really the goal though Andy [1]. It would be to test to see if the
hardware will *still* connect to the VM Hub *now*, indicating that it
is possible and so there may be some mileage in checking say WiFi
drivers (assuming John didn't etc)


I did. It was running the latest edition offered by ASUS for that
machine, but I also tried a later offering from Qualcomm.


Noted. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

p.s. If the OP could put a USB stick in there for you, you could
remotely download and install Linux to it ... and if he could boot
from it and launch Teamviewer (or you could probably get in other
ways), you could see if the WiFi would then function properly. ;-)

I actually *installed* Linux on a laptop for a Freecycler that way.
;-)

Cheers, T i m
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On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 23:28:27 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 10/07/2019 09:28, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 02:08:17 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

For those still following along, I will give a quick summary of what we
know now...

So this is not a WEP/WPA issue.


And some were so convinced it was. ;-)

actually connected without any difficulty.

What it does have is a DHCP problem after having authenticated on the
wifi.


And we know DHCP works over Ethernet.

If I manually assign an IP in the correct subnet, then it works
ok.


Inc DNS etc?


I manually set DNS - none of the DHCP parameters were being set. It was
timing out and defaulting to a APIPA style 169.254.n.n address, with no
default gateway or DNS server addresses.


Understood, but I was more asking if the DNS was actually functioning
(even if it had to be / once set manually), eg, you could access sites
via their names, not directly with the ip address?

is not a useable solution for the use case required.


Mobile netbook ... I'd still be interested to see if it connects
wirelessly to *another* network.


Indeed, but waiting on a suitable neighbour to return from hols before
we can check that.


Ok.

(Mobile is pre smartphone era)


The router configuration and DHCP setup is fine (and other wifi devices
have connected and DHCPed ok)


I'd be interested to see if that netbook could connect to that router
with Linux. ;-)


Interesting, but not useful.


Useful in that you know the hardware does work and it could still be a
fixable 'soft' problem?

(its a fairly common Atheros AR2427 wifi adaptor)


Noted. (As mentioned elsewhere, I might have tried an Intel WiFi
adaptor in there, because I can (and not so easy to do remotely)). ;-)

This could be related to the issues addressed in KB953761 (DHCP options
not recognised, when sever includes option 43). However that hotfix does
not seem to have done it initially at least, although I am currently
clarifying an issue on that.


And it did connect to that router previously, possibly before VM
rolled out an update?


Yup.


Strange then that it now can't ... like it was a 'soft' issue. I
wonder how we could try to test for that. ;-)

Can I think you for doing what this group was known for, helping
people in the real use of the word. ;-)


This is one of those cases where its less effort to try and fix it, than
to try and explain how to fix it. (especially when there are competing
methodologies!)


Agreed. I did exactly the same today (after doing some decorating
tools shopping for daughter and walking the dogs (~5 miles in this
heat)). A good but elderly friend phoned yesterday to ask for help on
one of the PC's I built for him ages ago. 'The screen had gone black
and all the icons gone', whilst he was looking if his (desktop) PC,
(right beside the router) had WiFi?? [1]

Long short, somehow he'd put it in tablet mode with it defaulting to
that mode at signin ... How do they do it!?

Oh well, we had a good chat (and my Mrs his Mrs) at the same time and
got a nice cup of tea. ;-)


p.s. Just a thought given your findings, was there a 3rd party
Firewall on there?


Looks like just the standard WinXP SP3 one.


Did you try disabling it (OOI)?

Cheers, T i m

[1] Turns out he had bought an Amazon Echo and doesn't have a
Smartphone (so I used mine for setting it up after I sorted the
desktop issue). ;-)

He had downloaded a Windows App that he seemed to think should do it
but ironically, not to his WiFi equipped laptop. ;-)
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On 10/07/2019 11:14, Jethro_uk wrote:

Which leads to another question ... there's nothing else on the network
that's doing a DHCP job is there ? I know WinXP/NT Server 4 networks
could be jammed if another DHCP server popped up from nowhere. Which used
to happen a lot (in those days) as salespeople carried NT4 Server laptops
and their IT guys never turned off DHCP. So when they connected to our
network everything barfed.


Some daft ******* must have installed or enabled it- pretty sure it was
never on by default.


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On 10/07/2019 23:41, John Rumm wrote:
On 10/07/2019 11:37, Andy Burns wrote:
T i m wrote:

So, what is the cause of the problem then?


If John and the O/P have put it to bed, it no longer matters,


Not quite to bed - the OP is still trying a few additional things I have
suggested. We are also waiting for access to anther network to try to
connect to.

some DHCP clash between the VM hub and the ancient XP network stack ...


It seems that way. Its very similar to the parameter 43 problem that
used to bite XP at one point. Although IIRC that would also cause a DHCP
fail on Ethernet as well.


I had a problem with a stupid linux device (an android phone) that would
insist on using the same IP address as one of my Synology NAS servers
even when DHCP was set.
It just wouldn't change its address to what the router told it to use
and caused intermittent fails on the backups.
In the end I gave up and moved the Synology to a new address.

Everything else on the network uses the pre-assigned address from the
router but that phone just wouldn't.

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On 11/07/2019 09:42, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 08:59:33 +0100, Chris Bartram wrote:

On 10/07/2019 11:14, Jethro_uk wrote:

Which leads to another question ... there's nothing else on the network
that's doing a DHCP job is there ? I know WinXP/NT Server 4 networks
could be jammed if another DHCP server popped up from nowhere. Which
used to happen a lot (in those days) as salespeople carried NT4 Server
laptops and their IT guys never turned off DHCP. So when they connected
to our network everything barfed.


Some daft ******* must have installed or enabled it- pretty sure it was
never on by default.


The reason was that when they connected to "foreign" networks, they
couldn't be sure of DHCP - or indeed any server services. Which is why
they put NT *Server* on the laptop in the first place.

OOI, what were they doing?
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On 11/07/2019 09:40, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 23:30:16 +0100, T i m wrote:

On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 17:21:02 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

snip

Most corporate desktops are built on
OS+Browser+Outlook+Word+Excel(+Powerpoint). If that could be reliably
moved to a Linux distro, you could move a lot of regular users off
Microsoft.

Libre office is pretty much all there. Doesn't do meetings an calendars
. Thunderbird does but not sure about interfacing with others


And Word can Track Changes, again important in many organisations.

Cheers, T i m


I was under the impression that the Linux Office equivalents for Word and
Excel were pretty complete ? If they're missing big stuff like that (with
no plans to introduce it) then again, stop wasting my time with "linux on
the desktop" stories


Of course it has that ability.

T i m = T h i c k


--
The biggest threat to humanity comes from socialism, which has utterly
diverted our attention away from what really matters to our existential
survival, to indulging in navel gazing and faux moral investigations
into what the world ought to be, whilst we fail utterly to deal with
what it actually is.

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On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 08:40:23 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
wrote:

snip

And Word can Track Changes, again important in many organisations.


I was under the impression that the Linux Office equivalents for Word and
Excel were pretty complete ?


Sorta. ;-)

If they're missing big stuff like that (with
no plans to introduce it) then again, stop wasting my time with "linux on
the desktop" stories


Quite.

Ages ago I put Linux on an old laptop for an elderly lady because it
happy on her hardware and potentially did all she needed (I went
though the list with her).

She contacted me the other day with issues with her iPad (she had
forgotten her Apple ID and password) but someone else contacted Apple
for her and sorted it.

I asked her how she was getting on with the Linux laptop and she said
she tried it once, couldn't get on with it and so hasn't touched it
since. Now, I can't see how at a user level the likes of Mint is that
far removed from most Windows desktops and once in Firefox or
Thunderbird it's nearly the same.

Buy you would be surprised just what little difference (where the
differences aren't any harder to use etc) will put some people off.
;-(

Cheers, T i m
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On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 10:12:04 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 11/07/2019 09:40, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 23:30:16 +0100, T i m wrote:

On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 17:21:02 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

snip

Most corporate desktops are built on
OS+Browser+Outlook+Word+Excel(+Powerpoint). If that could be reliably
moved to a Linux distro, you could move a lot of regular users off
Microsoft.

Libre office is pretty much all there. Doesn't do meetings an calendars
. Thunderbird does but not sure about interfacing with others

And Word can Track Changes, again important in many organisations.

Cheers, T i m


I was under the impression that the Linux Office equivalents for Word and
Excel were pretty complete ? If they're missing big stuff like that (with
no plans to introduce it) then again, stop wasting my time with "linux on
the desktop" stories


Of course it has that ability.


With Word, the de facto WP program across the business world?

T i m = T h i c k


Let's see (from those who *really* know).

Cheers, T i m


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On 11/07/2019 10:49, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 10:12:04 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 11/07/2019 09:40, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 23:30:16 +0100, T i m wrote:

On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 17:21:02 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

snip

Most corporate desktops are built on
OS+Browser+Outlook+Word+Excel(+Powerpoint). If that could be reliably
moved to a Linux distro, you could move a lot of regular users off
Microsoft.

Libre office is pretty much all there. Doesn't do meetings an calendars
. Thunderbird does but not sure about interfacing with others

And Word can Track Changes, again important in many organisations.

Cheers, T i m

I was under the impression that the Linux Office equivalents for Word and
Excel were pretty complete ? If they're missing big stuff like that (with
no plans to introduce it) then again, stop wasting my time with "linux on
the desktop" stories


Of course it has that ability.


With Word, the de facto WP program across the business world?

T i m = T h i c k


Let's see (from those who *really* know).

Cheers, T i m



Well there is a comparison here
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/...crosoft_Office

For some reason they compare it to quite an old version of Office and
not to Office 365 or Office 2019.

I am not sure it copes with multiple users editing the same documents at
all well from the list of features.

It quite specifically states that the word processor can't cope with
advanced layouts, like bullet points and various other paragraph types.

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On 11/07/2019 10:49, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 10:12:04 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 11/07/2019 09:40, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 23:30:16 +0100, T i m wrote:

On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 17:21:02 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

snip

Most corporate desktops are built on
OS+Browser+Outlook+Word+Excel(+Powerpoint). If that could be reliably
moved to a Linux distro, you could move a lot of regular users off
Microsoft.

Libre office is pretty much all there. Doesn't do meetings an calendars
. Thunderbird does but not sure about interfacing with others

And Word can Track Changes, again important in many organisations.

Cheers, T i m

I was under the impression that the Linux Office equivalents for Word and
Excel were pretty complete ? If they're missing big stuff like that (with
no plans to introduce it) then again, stop wasting my time with "linux on
the desktop" stories


Of course it has that ability.


With Word, the de facto WP program across the business world?

T i m = T h i c k


Let's see (from those who *really* know).


Are you really saying that LibreOffice cannot track changes in a text
document?

And that

https://help.libreoffice.org/Common/...ecting_Changes

is a lie?



NB I use MS Word and have done since the 1980s but LibreOffice is IMO an
adequate application for most who don't want to shell out.


--
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"dennis@home" wrote in message
...
On 11/07/2019 10:49, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 10:12:04 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 11/07/2019 09:40, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 23:30:16 +0100, T i m wrote:

On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 17:21:02 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

snip

Most corporate desktops are built on
OS+Browser+Outlook+Word+Excel(+Powerpoint). If that could be
reliably
moved to a Linux distro, you could move a lot of regular users off
Microsoft.

Libre office is pretty much all there. Doesn't do meetings an
calendars
. Thunderbird does but not sure about interfacing with others

And Word can Track Changes, again important in many organisations.

Cheers, T i m

I was under the impression that the Linux Office equivalents for Word
and
Excel were pretty complete ? If they're missing big stuff like that
(with
no plans to introduce it) then again, stop wasting my time with "linux
on
the desktop" stories


Of course it has that ability.


With Word, the de facto WP program across the business world?

T i m = T h i c k


Let's see (from those who *really* know).

Cheers, T i m



Well there is a comparison here
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/...crosoft_Office

For some reason they compare it to quite an old version of Office and not
to Office 365 or Office 2019.

I am not sure it copes with multiple users editing the same documents at
all well from the list of features.


it very probably doesn't

But that's the **** targeted at commercial users (who happily pay for it
when they need it) that makes the costs of "owing" it higher than domestic
users are prepared to pay for features that they haven't any need for

tim



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On 11/07/2019 12:56, tim... wrote:


"dennis@home" wrote in message
...
On 11/07/2019 10:49, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 10:12:04 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 11/07/2019 09:40, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 23:30:16 +0100, T i m wrote:

On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 17:21:02 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

snip

Most corporate desktops are built on
OS+Browser+Outlook+Word+Excel(+Powerpoint). If that could be
reliably
moved to a Linux distro, you could move a lot of regular users off
Microsoft.

Libre office is pretty much all there. Doesn't do meetings an
calendars
. Thunderbird does but not sure about interfacing with others

And Word can Track Changes, again important in many organisations.

Cheers, T i m

I was under the impression that the Linux Office equivalents for
Word and
Excel were pretty complete ? If they're missing big stuff like that
(with
no plans to introduce it) then again, stop wasting my time with
"linux on
the desktop" stories


Of course it has that ability.

With Word, the de facto WP program across the business world?

T i m = T h i c k

Let's see (from those who *really* know).

Cheers, T i m



Well there is a comparison here
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/...crosoft_Office


For some reason they compare it to quite an old version of Office and
not to Office 365 or Office 2019.

I am not sure it copes with multiple users editing the same documents
at all well from the list of features.


it very probably doesn't


And I'd be willing to bet neither does WORD.

Thats more a file access locking network issue


But that's the **** targeted at commercial users (who happily pay for it
when they need it) that makes the costs of "owing" it higher than
domestic users are prepared to pay for features that they haven't any
need for

tim





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On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 12:00:33 +0100, Robin wrote:

snip

With Word, the de facto WP program across the business world?

T i m = T h i c k


Let's see (from those who *really* know).


Are you really saying that LibreOffice cannot track changes in a text
document?


No?

And that

https://help.libreoffice.org/Common/...ecting_Changes

is a lie?


No?

NB I use MS Word and have done since the 1980s but LibreOffice is IMO an
adequate application for most who don't want to shell out.


Quite, but that wasn't what we were talking about. We weren't talking
about what might be considered 'adequate' for a home users but what is
considered 'essential' for a business user.

So, if a Word user can email a OO/LO user and that user continue to
track changes then OO/LO have moved on. ;-)

I'm not a secretary so don't (and never have) used any WP past a very
basic level, I'm just going by those people who have tried to use
OO/LO in a commercial / serious environment and who have had to give
up on it.

Again, this is left brainers like the likes of TNP thinking they have
the bigger picture but don't (and never will). ;-(

Cheers, T i m





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On 11/07/2019 00:16, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 23:38:48 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 10/07/2019 10:52, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 09:37:32 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

snip

I'd be interested to see if that netbook could connect to that router
with Linux. ;-)

Doesn't really get anywhere if the O/P wants XP ...

Not really the goal though Andy [1]. It would be to test to see if the
hardware will *still* connect to the VM Hub *now*, indicating that it
is possible and so there may be some mileage in checking say WiFi
drivers (assuming John didn't etc)


I did. It was running the latest edition offered by ASUS for that
machine, but I also tried a later offering from Qualcomm.


Noted. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

p.s. If the OP could put a USB stick in there for you, you could
remotely download and install Linux to it ... and if he could boot
from it and launch Teamviewer (or you could probably get in other
ways), you could see if the WiFi would then function properly. ;-)


While I could, I can't see it buys me anything. I know the hardware
works, I have had it connected to the network.




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John.

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On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 13:58:04 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

p.s. If the OP could put a USB stick in there for you, you could
remotely download and install Linux to it ... and if he could boot
from it and launch Teamviewer (or you could probably get in other
ways), you could see if the WiFi would then function properly. ;-)


While I could, I can't see it buys me anything.


Ok.

I know the hardware
works, I have had it connected to the network.


Yes, but I didn't say the hardware didn't work, I said it would allow
you to see if the 'WiFi functioned properly', including DHCP,
something I'm not sure you have yet seen?

Ok, if you were there in front of that box and with some bootable
Linux media, wouldn't you try it, just for the S&G's?

Cheers, T i m



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On 11/07/2019 13:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 11/07/2019 12:56, tim... wrote:


"dennis@home" wrote in message
...
On 11/07/2019 10:49, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 10:12:04 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 11/07/2019 09:40, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 23:30:16 +0100, T i m wrote:

On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 17:21:02 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

snip

Most corporate desktops are built on
OS+Browser+Outlook+Word+Excel(+Powerpoint). If that could be
reliably
moved to a Linux distro, you could move a lot of regular users off
Microsoft.

Libre office is pretty much all there. Doesn't do meetings an
calendars
. Thunderbird does but not sure about interfacing with others

And Word can Track Changes, again important in many organisations.

Cheers, T i m

I was under the impression that the Linux Office equivalents for
Word and
Excel were pretty complete ? If they're missing big stuff like
that (with
no plans to introduce it) then again, stop wasting my time with
"linux on
the desktop" stories


Of course it has that ability.

With Word, the de facto WP program across the business world?

T i m = T h i c k

Let's see (from those who *really* know).

Cheers, T i m



Well there is a comparison here
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/...crosoft_Office


For some reason they compare it to quite an old version of Office and
not to Office 365 or Office 2019.

I am not sure it copes with multiple users editing the same documents
at all well from the list of features.


it very probably doesn't


And I'd be willing to bet neither does WORD.

Thats more a file access locking network issue



Something else TNP knows nothing about but will still claim to.

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On 11/07/2019 14:51, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 13:58:04 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

p.s. If the OP could put a USB stick in there for you, you could
remotely download and install Linux to it ... and if he could boot
from it and launch Teamviewer (or you could probably get in other
ways), you could see if the WiFi would then function properly. ;-)


While I could, I can't see it buys me anything.


Ok.

I know the hardware
works, I have had it connected to the network.


Yes, but I didn't say the hardware didn't work, I said it would allow
you to see if the 'WiFi functioned properly', including DHCP,
something I'm not sure you have yet seen?

Ok, if you were there in front of that box and with some bootable
Linux media, wouldn't you try it, just for the S&G's?


No... from my PoV its not actually answering a useful question...

We know the hardware works, and the machine can connect to the wifi, so
what we have is a software problem of some form.

We already know the router can connect to other devices ok, so that
leaves the problem at the netbook.

Swapping the entire software platform (OS, drivers etc) on the netbook
may indeed get a working setup, but gets no closer to getting a working
windows XP setup.




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John.

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On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 18:35:30 +0100, Robin wrote:

On 11/07/2019 13:28, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 12:00:33 +0100, Robin wrote:

snip

With Word, the de facto WP program across the business world?

T i m = T h i c k

Let's see (from those who *really* know).


Are you really saying that LibreOffice cannot track changes in a text
document?


No?

And that

https://help.libreoffice.org/Common/...ecting_Changes

is a lie?


No?


NB I use MS Word and have done since the 1980s but LibreOffice is IMO an
adequate application for most who don't want to shell out.


Quite, but that wasn't what we were talking about. We weren't talking
about what might be considered 'adequate' for a home users but what is
considered 'essential' for a business user.

So, if a Word user can email a OO/LO user and that user continue to
track changes then OO/LO have moved on. ;-)


I can see why you snipped your original comment:

"And Word can Track Changes, again important in many organisations."


Why, did you actually think many organisations ran OO/LO and would be
just tracking changes between themselves?

I'm not a secretary so don't (and never have) used any WP past a very
basic level, I'm just going by those people who have tried to use
OO/LO in a commercial / serious environment and who have had to give
up on it.


I've generally found only only narrow-brained, arrogant pricks think
that only "secretaries" use document processing software beyond basic
levels.


Aw bless, another one who can't spot humour ... I hadn't included you
in with the binary left brainers but now ...

I'll make sure I put a smiley on there next time, so you aren't
confused. ;-)

Cheers, T i m



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On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 18:00:41 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 11/07/2019 14:51, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 13:58:04 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

p.s. If the OP could put a USB stick in there for you, you could
remotely download and install Linux to it ... and if he could boot
from it and launch Teamviewer (or you could probably get in other
ways), you could see if the WiFi would then function properly. ;-)

While I could, I can't see it buys me anything.


Ok.

I know the hardware
works, I have had it connected to the network.


Yes, but I didn't say the hardware didn't work, I said it would allow
you to see if the 'WiFi functioned properly', including DHCP,
something I'm not sure you have yet seen?

Ok, if you were there in front of that box and with some bootable
Linux media, wouldn't you try it, just for the S&G's?


No... from my PoV its not actually answering a useful question...


And that's fine. From mine it would, because (and assuming you aren't
privy to more than the OP has said here etc).

1) We know what doesn't work and now know what we need to do to make
it work but that isn't an acceptable workaround to the OP and his use
of that Netbook.

2) We know the OP has no / little experience with Linux but say it was
installed on there for him and served his purposes with the existing
hardware, that may be a viable 'solution'.

We know the hardware works, and the machine can connect to the wifi, so
what we have is a software problem of some form.


Agreed, software or compatibility?

We already know the router can connect to other devices ok,


(or other devices connect to the router .. ducks?)

so that
leaves the problem at the netbook.


Erm, quite. Or that Notebook and that particular (range of) Router(s)?

Swapping the entire software platform (OS, drivers etc) on the netbook
may indeed get a working setup,


;-)

but gets no closer to getting a working
windows XP setup.


No, but see above (and that the hardware *will* support an OS OOTB
*and* handle DHCP etc). ;-)

But as I say, you may have further info. If the OP doesn't
specifically require XP (or Windows) and could use Linux
(functionally, even if not familiar with it right now), mightn't that
be better than throwing the netbook away or even having to re-install
XP (if it's not required)? [1]

Cheers, T i m

[1] I have many Linux netbooks / laptops for that very reason. ;-)
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On 08/07/2019 15:28, Chris Bartram wrote:
On 08/07/2019 15:24, ss wrote:
On 08/07/2019 13:46, Chris Bartram wrote:

I would bet (as it looks to be a Virgin "super" hub), VM have pushed
new firmware to it since the netbook last worked and it no longer
supports an encryption scheme it used to. VM have been making a lot
of noise about their new "intelligent" wifi.

yet another giood reason to use it in modem mode and supply your own
router IMO.


If I understand correctly that would not be good as I only use it on
hols so requires wi-fi.


No, use the VM superhub in modem mode, rather than as a router.


OOI, do you know if they have fixed the limitation that prevented modem
mode working if you have a static IP?

--
Cheers,

John.

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On Thursday, 11 July 2019 21:49:05 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:

No, use the VM superhub in modem mode, rather than as a router.


OOI, do you know if they have fixed the limitation that prevented modem
mode working if you have a static IP?

I don't think so, but you really don't want to use a static IP with VM
(except by tunneling one from elsewhere). I had no end of trouble with
a VM business line that had static IPs and going to dynamic IP in modem
mode solved nearly everything. I think VM use a GRE tunnel in static ip
mode which seems to be implemented in a very unreliable way.

John
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On 11/07/2019 00:35, T i m wrote:
Mobile netbook ... I'd still be interested to see if it connects
wirelessly to*another* network.


Yes it did connect to another wireless network.
I am with Virgin and it connected to a Sky wireless, although I should
add not to all websites but I think thats a lesser issue and possibly
firewall or something.


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On Sat, 13 Jul 2019 21:49:33 +0100, ss wrote:

On 11/07/2019 00:35, T i m wrote:
Mobile netbook ... I'd still be interested to see if it connects
wirelessly to*another* network.


Yes it did connect to another wireless network.


So, as I pondered, it could be a compatibility issue, one that has
possibly manifested itself since a VM update.

I am with Virgin and it connected to a Sky wireless, although I should
add not to all websites but I think thats a lesser issue and possibly
firewall or something.


Or browser, from your previous messages.

So, assuming you can predict that you won't come across another VM
router on your travels with that netbook, you have a few options.

Have a look at the options in the VM router / HUB options to see if
you make it more friendly to your Netbook (maybe John could help you
with that again). eg. I think I've disabled the 5GHz network or
somesuch and stuff has worked again (even though it's illogical etc).

Try a different network adaptor in the Netbook, maybe an Intel model.
Sometimes they are accessible though a panel in the bottom or on a
netbook, often the whole base comes off (several screws) and the Mini
PCI adaptors aren't expensive on eBay.

Depending on how well the test goes (booting Linux from a USB stick
and seeing it *that* will connect to your router) and what you
actually need to do with this Netbook, install Linux (you could even
do it dual boot, XP / Linux) and enjoy an up-to-date OS and browser
etc. ;-)

The point I'm making is unless you need XP for some reason or Linux
doesn't run on that hardware, for basic web browsing, email and office
duties, Linux could be a good solution. Ironically, if you aren't
'technical' I predict it would be easier for you to install Linux than
re-installing XP (especially).

Cheers, T i m



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T i m wrote:

ss wrote:

not to all websites but I think thats a lesser issue and possibly
firewall or something.


Or browser, from your previous messages.


Running XP means running old browsers, old browsers don't support modern
encryption, some sites that don't really need to be encrypted are anyway
because somebody thought it would be a good idea, so you end up with
inaccessible web sites ...
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On Sun, 14 Jul 2019 18:30:00 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

T i m wrote:

ss wrote:

not to all websites but I think thats a lesser issue and possibly
firewall or something.


Or browser, from your previous messages.


Running XP means running old browsers, old browsers don't support modern
encryption, some sites that don't really need to be encrypted are anyway
because somebody thought it would be a good idea, so you end up with
inaccessible web sites ...


FWIW, I'm still running XP (here) and Firefox and can't remember
having any trouble accessing any web sites?

I don't necessarily get everything as intended (like the odd embedded
video won't run) and some eMails don't open embedded images but will
normally open ok 'in browser'.

I have actually built a replacement box to this MacMini, quad core
Atom, silent (passive cooling), SSD, (full size) BD, W10-64 but
haven't got round to plumbing it in ... and a Quad core, passively
cooled Shuttle, also with an SSD and running W7-64 that will probably
go along side it.

I'm still think about a NAS to supplement my aging WHS. A mate has
just given me an old Buffalo TeraStation with 4 x 2TB drives but it
seems one drive has failed (probably why he took it offline and in his
loft a few years ago). As it's RAID5 I'm happy to find a replacement
drive and give it a good run and might leave it online here for a
while, prior to giving it to our daughter.

I'm still looking at Synology boxen, DS218J or just a DS119j (I think
it is, single drive) and maybe use a RPi running OMV to act as a
backup to that?

The TeraStation draws ~40W when running and ~15W idle, versus the
DS218j which I think is 17W running and 4W idle?

Cheers, T i m
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On 14/07/2019 18:30, Andy Burns wrote:
T i m wrote:

ss wrote:

not to all websites but I think thats a lesser issue and possibly
firewall or something.


Or browser, from your previous messages.


Running XP means running old browsers, old browsers don't support modern
encryption, some sites that don't really need to be encrypted are anyway
because somebody thought it would be a good idea, so you end up with
inaccessible web sites ...


Win XP will only run IE versions up to 8 usually - and that is a bit
long in the tooth. However you can run relatively recent versions of
firefox, which will cope with most sites, but you will be a bit more at
risk since you won't have fixes for the most recent critical browser
vulnerabilities.

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John.

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On 14/07/2019 21:00, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 14 Jul 2019 18:30:00 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

T i m wrote:

ss wrote:

not to all websites but I think thats a lesser issue and possibly
firewall or something.

Or browser, from your previous messages.


Running XP means running old browsers, old browsers don't support modern
encryption, some sites that don't really need to be encrypted are anyway
because somebody thought it would be a good idea, so you end up with
inaccessible web sites ...


FWIW, I'm still running XP (here) and Firefox and can't remember
having any trouble accessing any web sites?

I don't necessarily get everything as intended (like the odd embedded
video won't run) and some eMails don't open embedded images but will
normally open ok 'in browser'.

I have actually built a replacement box to this MacMini, quad core
Atom, silent (passive cooling), SSD, (full size) BD, W10-64 but
haven't got round to plumbing it in ... and a Quad core, passively
cooled Shuttle, also with an SSD and running W7-64 that will probably
go along side it.

I'm still think about a NAS to supplement my aging WHS. A mate has
just given me an old Buffalo TeraStation with 4 x 2TB drives but it
seems one drive has failed (probably why he took it offline and in his
loft a few years ago). As it's RAID5 I'm happy to find a replacement
drive and give it a good run and might leave it online here for a
while, prior to giving it to our daughter.


Can't say I was that impressed with the Baffalo NAS I saw. If you want
"simple and works" Netgear readynas are good. For more features Synology
or QNAP.

I'm still looking at Synology boxen, DS218J or just a DS119j (I think
it is, single drive) and maybe use a RPi running OMV to act as a
backup to that?

The TeraStation draws ~40W when running and ~15W idle, versus the
DS218j which I think is 17W running and 4W idle?

Cheers, T i m



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John.

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Update:

Netbook now back on line, I cant be sure but suspect it was router issues.

Thanks to all for the time and input given.
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ss wrote:

Netbook now back on line, I cant be sure but suspect it was router issues.


Oh ... a not very satisfying end, but glad it's working.
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On 15/07/2019 18:02, ss wrote:
Update:

Netbook now back on line, I cant be sure but suspect it was router issues.

Thanks to all for the time and input given.


what was the fix?

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On 15/07/2019 18:55, dennis@home wrote:
what was the fix?


Thats the frustrating part....I dont really know.
This is what I can remember from the last 24 hours.
You can come to your own conclusion, my bet is the Virgin router.

....." Ok I will give this in the correct order as best I can remember .

Along the way my wifes iphone and the TV stopped connecting to the
internet as I know even less on that side she phoned Virgin and pushed
them to have a look, they messed for nearly an hour doing whatever they
do, trying to claim a loose cable but eventually wife got her
connections back, but no reason from Virgin why.
So tried this netbook and still no joy.

I then uninstalled Avira / Malware and AVG or whatever remnants were on
the system as best I could, I couldnt get in to safe mode, it started
then stalled.
Tried netbook again €¦no joy.

Then using msconfig tried some options and nearly lost it, (surprise
surprise, I shouldnt go near that with my knowledge) I put back to
where it was and kept getting an Asus issue and recommending a shutdown,
so then done a system restore back to June (forgot to do one before
uninstalls of AVs), that got me up and running again with no internet
connection.

Unplugged AC unit, removed battery for a few hours.€¦date & time stamps
still correct in bios.
Tried internet again€¦.no joy.

Looked again at wireless connections not really knowing what I am
looking for but double checked the passwords etc.

Done another reboot, must be about 15 by now.

5 minutes later I get a connection.

I have shut down and rebooted 3 times and it still connects now to the
internet. Left for another couple of hours tried again and it is still
connecting ok.

It looks like whatever the issue was it is now resolved.

It is frustrating not knowing what the issue was but I am suspicious the
phone call to Virgin fixed something although it was a couple of hours
after that before it connected".......


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On Mon, 15 Jul 2019 17:51:46 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

Can't say I was that impressed with the Baffalo NAS I saw.


In this case 'beggars can't be choosers' John. ;-)

If you want
"simple and works" Netgear readynas are good.


Ok. I have seen them on eBay. (Just trying not to go there again),
could it have been a D-Link NAS that required (forced) you to create
an online account and the NAS was linked to it or might that be an
option on most of them for remote access?

For more features Synology
or QNAP.


I don't think we would want 'more features' (than a reliable / basic
NAS, possibly with the option of RAID1) and those we would want we
aren't likely to get ... like the sort of client machine backup we get
as std on WHS?

I was looking for another 2TB drive to replay the third drive on this
TeraStation that is currently in RAID5. Given I was considering a
DS218j (two drive bays) I have since thought of just pulling one of
the 3 remaining drives in the TeraStation and turning the remaining
two drives into a RAID1 pair and still have a 2TB drive to hold as a
spare, or set up as backup drive in the TS, or as an independent
backup by putting it in an external / USB drive case [1], either
plugged into the NAS directly or running on a RPi / OMV. I wouldn't
know (yet) how I would get the drives mirrored across the two boxes,
if I went that way (whereas I believe the Synology boxes have their
own Backup solution)?

Cheers, T i m

[1] It would be handy if the backup drive could be read on any or
Linux boxes ... in an emergency.
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