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#81
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Lonely Psychopathic Senile Ozzie Troll Alert!
On Sun, 7 Jul 2019 05:48:39 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again: Surely most all phones now use GPS and not triangulation ?... But some chose to turn the GPS off to get more time between charges. ROTFLOL Auto-contradicting SENILE ASSHOLE! -- Bod addressing abnormal senile quarreller Rot: "Do you practice arguing with yourself in an empty room?" MID: |
#82
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Fire escape ladders/ropes/descenders/ ...
On Sat, 06 Jul 2019 20:36:01 +0100, Harry Bloomfield
wrote: Dave Liquorice formulated on Saturday : Advantage of a landline (or VOIP number) is that you can register your address and that pops up on the 999 operators screen. How does one register one's address? For a normal plain telephone line you don't. It is entirely automatic. As soon as the call is made the BT emergency operator will be shown the call location. It matters not if you have chosen not to be in the phone book or have your number withheld. |
#83
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Fire escape ladders/ropes/descenders/ ...
In article , Peter Parry
scribeth thus On Sat, 6 Jul 2019 17:18:03 +0100, tony sayer wrote: Mobiles give location with varying degrees of accuracy. The basic service sends the location of the mast being used via a simultaneous Emergency SMS. This, in remote areas, can encompass a significant area and in many rural locations is fairly useless. In urban areas the basic information is quickly enhanced by mast triangulation as the call is established. Advanced Mobile Location (AML), if available on your phone operating system, uses GPS and WiFi location data to refine location more precisely so works well in rural areas. (It works on Android, not sure about others). Needless to say most emergency services use different incompatible systems to handle calls. Some use a data exchange system called EISEC ( Enhanced Information Service for Emergency Calls) others voice. Surely most all phones now use GPS and not triangulation ?... Most certainly do but by no means all, really dumb phones are becoming more popular. Are they?, seems that everyone i know has to have the latest large screen easily cracked jobbie that keeps mobile screen repairers in a job at almost the same prices as a car windscreen;!. Actually we used to use many years ago a system that did use triangulation and it was pretty hopeless getting a portable latch onto Three bases when they struggle sometimes to find one?.. Also when relying upon any wireless device it is worth remembering Marconi's first law of communication - "The ability to communicate successfully using any wireless system is inversely proportional to the need to do so" Don't recall old Guglielmo spouting that;?.. -- Tony Sayer Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself. |
#84
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Fire escape ladders/ropes/descenders/ ...
In article , Harry Bloomfield harry.m1byt@N
OSPAM.tiscali.co.uk scribeth thus Dave Liquorice formulated on Saturday : Advantage of a landline (or VOIP number) is that you can register your address and that pops up on the 999 operators screen. How does one register one's address? Its on the setup pages of mast all VoIP providers!... -- Tony Sayer Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself. |
#85
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Fire escape ladders/ropes/descenders/ ...
Andy Burns wrote :
then BT (or whoever) already know the address of the line. 'whoever' depends on which way the wind might be blowing, so far as ISP's - their service and charges. I swap those as necessary. I just thought the 999 service ought to have instant access to correlate number with address. On the very rare occasions when I have rung them, or the less urgent number, they ask me for my address and often as not, my phone number. |
#86
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Fire escape ladders/ropes/descenders/ ...
tony sayer used his keyboard to write :
Don't recall old Guglielmo spouting that;?.. That was the day when he first attempted the transatlantic comms and failed :-) |
#87
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Fire escape ladders/ropes/descenders/ ...
Peter Parry explained :
For a normal plain telephone line you don't. It is entirely automatic. As soon as the call is made the BT emergency operator will be shown the call location. It matters not if you have chosen not to be in the phone book or have your number withheld. Thanks! |
#88
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Fire escape ladders/ropes/descenders/ ...
"Peter Parry" wrote in message
... For me, a mobile or a cordless phone that I can take with me as I flee the building is less risky. Problem with a cordless is that if the RCD trips (which it will as the fire develops) the phone becomes useless. Far enough. But a mobile won't suffer from that. Mobiles give location with varying degrees of accuracy. The basic service sends the location of the mast being used via a simultaneous Emergency SMS. This, in remote areas, can encompass a significant area and in many rural locations is fairly useless. In urban areas the basic information is quickly enhanced by mast triangulation as the call is established. Advanced Mobile Location (AML), if available on your phone operating system, uses GPS and WiFi location data to refine location more precisely so works well in rural areas. (It works on Android, not sure about others). Needless to say most emergency services use different incompatible systems to handle calls. Some use a data exchange system called EISEC ( Enhanced Information Service for Emergency Calls) others voice. I would always use my phone's own GPS, together with an app such as GPS Status, to give lat/long or OS grid ref, because I know how imprecise the mobile phone location (triangulation of masts) can be. Our car satnav has a option (rather obscure menu - need to remind myself where it is) which gives lat/long and also a sentence describing the location eg "on A64, 1 mile south west of junction with B1248". I bet even if you gave them all that info, some of the 999 operators would still want to know what the postcode was :-( I once had to give a location relative to my postcode (walker collapsed on a footpath behind our house) so I said "Go to postcode X on an OS map; go southeast about 100 metres along the road and there is a footpath that goes north east from the road. Casualty is along there - on a footpath about 300 metres from the road." Ambulance crew were geared up for the casualty being in a house, not on a footpath requiring brisk trot carrying equipment. I think the info that the sharp-end staff get is severely filtered, and subject to Chinese whispers. The fixed line phone (not VOIP) on a wire requires no power and the emergency call handler knows your precise address immediately. You don't need to register anything. Simple is sometimes much better. As long as you can reach your phone from where you are calling. It would be a lot of work to get phone sockets near to any of the three of the main exits from the house, and then I'd need to get a landline phone for each socket with a long enough cord to reach from there to the safe space away from the house. |
#90
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Fire escape ladders/ropes/descenders/ ...
(Alan J. Wylie) writes:
P.S. In the early 80's, a boarding house at by school had a "Davy Descender" in one of the dorms. https://cultureseekers.blog/2018/02/...avy-descender/ https://www.safelincs.co.uk/davy-des...d-fire-escape/ -- Alan J. Wylie https://www.wylie.me.uk/ Dance like no-one's watching. / Encrypt like everyone is. Security is inversely proportional to convenience |
#91
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Fire escape ladders/ropes/descenders/ ...
On Sun, 7 Jul 2019 18:42:48 +0100, "NY" wrote:
"Peter Parry" wrote in message .. . For me, a mobile or a cordless phone that I can take with me as I flee the building is less risky. Problem with a cordless is that if the RCD trips (which it will as the fire develops) the phone becomes useless. Far enough. But a mobile won't suffer from that. Mobiles give location with varying degrees of accuracy. The basic service sends the location of the mast being used via a simultaneous Emergency SMS. This, in remote areas, can encompass a significant area and in many rural locations is fairly useless. In urban areas the basic information is quickly enhanced by mast triangulation as the call is established. Advanced Mobile Location (AML), if available on your phone operating system, uses GPS and WiFi location data to refine location more precisely so works well in rural areas. (It works on Android, not sure about others). Needless to say most emergency services use different incompatible systems to handle calls. Some use a data exchange system called EISEC ( Enhanced Information Service for Emergency Calls) others voice. I would always use my phone's own GPS, together with an app such as GPS Status, to give lat/long or OS grid ref, because I know how imprecise the mobile phone location (triangulation of masts) can be. Our car satnav has a option (rather obscure menu - need to remind myself where it is) which gives lat/long and also a sentence describing the location eg "on A64, 1 mile south west of junction with B1248". When you call the emergency service at least two operators are involved. Firstly the BT operated 999 service operator takes the call and decides which of the 4 services (fire, police, ambulance, coastguard) to allocate it to. They will contact the appropriate closest service to the caller and pass any location information they have. If the local service is busy it will be passed to the next nearest which may not be much use. The specific emergency service finds out where you are and what the problem is and allocates responders. If you are calling from a fixed line phone they know where you are. Calling from a mobile the preferred location information is Postcode because almost everyone knows it (Postcode is used in over 99% of emergency calls). Failing that address (as in 67 Firtree Lane, BIggleswade) is preferred. After that you are in varying degrees of trouble and the chances of getting the right people to the right place in less than a few days starts growing. Emergency services are regional and different regions and different services use different systems. Police tend to like road name and description, Coastguard like range and bearing from a prominent point. Some can use lat/long - but which one? degrees, minutes, and seconds such as 40° 26' 46? N 79° 58' 56? W,? degrees and decimal minutes, 40° 26.767' N 79° 58.933' W? or decimal degrees such as 40.446° N 79.982° W. ? OSGB - but SO 08357 43962 or 308357243962? or 083439? UTM? 30U 0476779 5770702 MGRS 30UVC76777070 Some ambulance services use the OSGB grid reference - but in the all number format 308357243962 which is both uncommon and very prone to transcription errors. Google maps favours the "plus code" which no one understands "3MP7+FQ Builth Wells" By the time you have found an operator who can use what you are giving them you will probably have had time to rebuild the house never mind putting the fire out. I bet even if you gave them all that info, some of the 999 operators would still want to know what the postcode was :-( Not some, all :-) The fixed line phone (not VOIP) on a wire requires no power and the emergency call handler knows your precise address immediately. You don't need to register anything. Simple is sometimes much better. As long as you can reach your phone from where you are calling. It would be a lot of work to get phone sockets near to any of the three of the main exits from the house, and then I'd need to get a landline phone for each socket with a long enough cord to reach from there to the safe space away from the house. Assuming you have working smoke detectors you will have several minutes (at least) warning before a fire gets so fierce it impedes escape. On a phone near the normal exit route put a long extension cable, as you go out take the phone with you and call from the door. You don't need to stay by the phone for long as the operator already knows your address as soon as you call. You don't really need one by each door. |
#92
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Fire escape ladders/ropes/descenders/ ...
On Fri, 5 Jul 2019 22:13:52 +0100, "NY" wrote:
I keep all my keys (front/back door, car) on a keyring that is always in my trouser pocket, together with my wallet and mobile phone, with my trousers close at hand at night. The reason I keep my keys on/near me is mainly so I don't lose them by absent-mindedly putting them down "somewhere"; the benefit for emergency situations is a bonus. Hopefully in an emergency I'd either put my trousers on (if there was time) or at least grab them, and so have the means to open doors, call the emergency services, and move my car if that would make it easier for emergency vehicles (or if it put it out of range of the fire setting the fuel tank on fire, making a small fire bigger). At least I wouldn't be faffing around trying to remember where each set of keys were. Many years ago the fire service responded to a house fire in a house with two adults and two children. We found the family dead behind the locked front door. The door key, which neighbours later told us was usually on a shelf by the door, was found under the fathers body. I am a great supporter of final exit doors which cannot be locked from inside. |
#93
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Fire escape ladders/ropes/descenders/ ...
Peter Parry wrote:
On Sun, 7 Jul 2019 18:42:48 +0100, "NY" wrote: "Peter Parry" wrote in message ... For me, a mobile or a cordless phone that I can take with me as I flee the building is less risky. Problem with a cordless is that if the RCD trips (which it will as the fire develops) the phone becomes useless. Far enough. But a mobile won't suffer from that. Mobiles give location with varying degrees of accuracy. The basic service sends the location of the mast being used via a simultaneous Emergency SMS. This, in remote areas, can encompass a significant area and in many rural locations is fairly useless. In urban areas the basic information is quickly enhanced by mast triangulation as the call is established. Advanced Mobile Location (AML), if available on your phone operating system, uses GPS and WiFi location data to refine location more precisely so works well in rural areas. (It works on Android, not sure about others). Needless to say most emergency services use different incompatible systems to handle calls. Some use a data exchange system called EISEC ( Enhanced Information Service for Emergency Calls) others voice. I would always use my phone's own GPS, together with an app such as GPS Status, to give lat/long or OS grid ref, because I know how imprecise the mobile phone location (triangulation of masts) can be. Our car satnav has a option (rather obscure menu - need to remind myself where it is) which gives lat/long and also a sentence describing the location eg "on A64, 1 mile south west of junction with B1248". When you call the emergency service at least two operators are involved. Firstly the BT operated 999 service operator takes the call and decides which of the 4 services (fire, police, ambulance, coastguard) to allocate it to. They will contact the appropriate closest service to the caller and pass any location information they have. If the local service is busy it will be passed to the next nearest which may not be much use. The specific emergency service finds out where you are and what the problem is and allocates responders. If you are calling from a fixed line phone they know where you are. Calling from a mobile the preferred location information is Postcode because almost everyone knows it (Postcode is used in over 99% of emergency calls). Failing that address (as in 67 Firtree Lane, BIggleswade) is preferred. After that you are in varying degrees of trouble and the chances of getting the right people to the right place in less than a few days starts growing. Emergency services are regional and different regions and different services use different systems. Police tend to like road name and description, Coastguard like range and bearing from a prominent point. Some can use lat/long - but which one? degrees, minutes, and seconds such as 40° 26' 46? N 79° 58' 56? W,? degrees and decimal minutes, 40° 26.767' N 79° 58.933' W? or decimal degrees such as 40.446° N 79.982° W. ? OSGB - but SO 08357 43962 or 308357243962? or 083439? UTM? 30U 0476779 5770702 MGRS 30UVC76777070 Some ambulance services use the OSGB grid reference - but in the all number format 308357243962 which is both uncommon and very prone to transcription errors. Google maps favours the "plus code" which no one understands "3MP7+FQ Builth Wells" By the time you have found an operator who can use what you are giving them you will probably have had time to rebuild the house never mind putting the fire out. That certainly accords with my recent experience of trying to contact emergency services. I got the distinct impression that the emergency services consider using the internet to find out *anything* regarding location as unsporting. Tim -- Please don't feed the trolls |
#94
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Fire escape ladders/ropes/descenders/ ...
Tim+ wrote:
I got the distinct impression that the emergency services consider using the internet to find out*anything* regarding location as unsporting. The control operators PCs in the county I have dealings with are restricted to a handful of websites (environment agency, met office etc) .... though they do have other PCs in the control suite with full internet access. |
#95
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Fire escape ladders/ropes/descenders/ ...
On 08/07/2019 12:35, Peter Parry wrote:
On Sun, 7 Jul 2019 18:42:48 +0100, "NY" wrote: "Peter Parry" wrote in message ... For me, a mobile or a cordless phone that I can take with me as I flee the building is less risky. Problem with a cordless is that if the RCD trips (which it will as the fire develops) the phone becomes useless. Far enough. But a mobile won't suffer from that. Mobiles give location with varying degrees of accuracy. The basic service sends the location of the mast being used via a simultaneous Emergency SMS. This, in remote areas, can encompass a significant area and in many rural locations is fairly useless. In urban areas the basic information is quickly enhanced by mast triangulation as the call is established. Advanced Mobile Location (AML), if available on your phone operating system, uses GPS and WiFi location data to refine location more precisely so works well in rural areas. (It works on Android, not sure about others). Needless to say most emergency services use different incompatible systems to handle calls. Some use a data exchange system called EISEC ( Enhanced Information Service for Emergency Calls) others voice. I would always use my phone's own GPS, together with an app such as GPS Status, to give lat/long or OS grid ref, because I know how imprecise the mobile phone location (triangulation of masts) can be. Our car satnav has a option (rather obscure menu - need to remind myself where it is) which gives lat/long and also a sentence describing the location eg "on A64, 1 mile south west of junction with B1248". When you call the emergency service at least two operators are involved. Firstly the BT operated 999 service operator takes the call and decides which of the 4 services (fire, police, ambulance, coastguard) to allocate it to. They will contact the appropriate closest service to the caller and pass any location information they have. If the local service is busy it will be passed to the next nearest which may not be much use. The specific emergency service finds out where you are and what the problem is and allocates responders. If you are calling from a fixed line phone they know where you are. Calling from a mobile the preferred location information is Postcode because almost everyone knows it (Postcode is used in over 99% of emergency calls). Failing that address (as in 67 Firtree Lane, BIggleswade) is preferred. After that you are in varying degrees of trouble and the chances of getting the right people to the right place in less than a few days starts growing. Emergency services are regional and different regions and different services use different systems. Police tend to like road name and description, Coastguard like range and bearing from a prominent point. Some can use lat/long - but which one? degrees, minutes, and seconds such as 40° 26' 46? N 79° 58' 56? W,? degrees and decimal minutes, 40° 26.767' N 79° 58.933' W? or decimal degrees such as 40.446° N 79.982° W. ? OSGB - but SO 08357 43962 or 308357243962? or 083439? UTM? 30U 0476779 5770702 MGRS 30UVC76777070 My ancient Satnav will take a variety of them (I can't remember which off hand, although it definitely does DMS and I'm pretty sure it does both decimal minutes and decimal degree options, plus OS. It is appalling that emergency service operators don't have a mapping system that can take any of the various options as a standard piece of software running all the time. SteveW |
#96
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Fire escape ladders/ropes/descenders/ ...
When you call the emergency service at least two operators are involved. Firstly the BT operated 999 service operator takes the call and decides which of the 4 services (fire, police, ambulance, coastguard) to allocate it to. They will contact the appropriate closest service to the caller and pass any location information they have. If the local service is busy it will be passed to the next nearest which may not be much use. The specific emergency service finds out where you are and what the problem is and allocates responders. If you are calling from a fixed line phone they know where you are. Calling from a mobile the preferred location information is Postcode because almost everyone knows it (Postcode is used in over 99% of emergency calls). Failing that address (as in 67 Firtree Lane, BIggleswade) is preferred. After that you are in varying degrees of trouble and the chances of getting the right people to the right place in less than a few days starts growing. Emergency services are regional and different regions and different services use different systems. Police tend to like road name and description, Coastguard like range and bearing from a prominent point. Some can use lat/long - but which one? degrees, minutes, and seconds such as 40° 26' 46? N 79° 58' 56? W,? degrees and decimal minutes, 40° 26.767' N 79° 58.933' W? or decimal degrees such as 40.446° N 79.982° W. ? OSGB - but SO 08357 43962 or 308357243962? or 083439? UTM? 30U 0476779 5770702 MGRS 30UVC76777070 Some ambulance services use the OSGB grid reference - but in the all number format 308357243962 which is both uncommon and very prone to transcription errors. Google maps favours the "plus code" which no one understands "3MP7+FQ Builth Wells" Good points but you'd have thought by now that there would be a standardised location system that for instance could be incorporated in a mobile that when you made a 112 or 999 call then that info was transmitted to the emergency services so they'd know exactly were you are rightaway without any fuss to which standard you were using?.. This what three words system seems over complicated for what it is there are plenty of GPS enabled apps for mobiles indeed car sat navs should have an located emergency option easy to get to when needed that uses probably the simplest and that in my mind is decimal Lat and Long Ever two letter NGR with six digits is good to within a 100 metres accuracy much better then to trying to get a street address or Postcode what Wally dreamt that up?. -- Tony Sayer Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself. |
#97
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Fire escape ladders/ropes/descenders/ ...
tony sayer wrote:
you'd have thought by now that there would be a standardised location system that for instance could be incorporated in a mobile that when you made a 112 or 999 call then that info was transmitted to the emergency services so they'd know exactly were you are rightaway without any fuss to which standard you were using?.. BT provide data via the EISEC system ... |
#98
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Fire escape ladders/ropes/descenders/ ...
In article , Andy Burns
scribeth thus tony sayer wrote: you'd have thought by now that there would be a standardised location system that for instance could be incorporated in a mobile that when you made a 112 or 999 call then that info was transmitted to the emergency services so they'd know exactly were you are rightaway without any fuss to which standard you were using?.. BT provide data via the EISEC system ... AMLit seems?.. AML was developed in the United Kingdom by British Telecom, EE Limited, and HTC as a solution to problematic caller location in emergencies.[2] When a person in distress calls the emergency services with a smart- phone where AML is enabled, the telephone automatically activates its location service to establish its position and sends this information to the emergency services via an SMS.[3] The services uses either a global navigation satellite system or WiFi depending on which one is better at the given moment. It was estimated that this technique is up to 4000 times more accurate than the previously used system.[4] AML is being implemented in the UK by an increasing number of smart-phone manufacturers and mobile network operators: BT, the mobile networks EE, O2 and Three, together with Apple Inc., HTC, Sony, Alcatel, and Samsung handsets, have already successfully implemented AML.[5] -- Tony Sayer Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself. |
#99
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Fire escape ladders/ropes/descenders/ ...
tony sayer wrote:
Andy Burns wrote: BT provide data via the EISEC system ... AML it seems?.. Never heard that term, I just setup the firewall rules to allow servers to reach EISEC servers; supposedly for mobiles it transmits a co-ordinate with major/minor radii of an ellipse that the phone is within, and if it's from an eCall SIM embedded in a car it gives the VIN, reg number, make, model, colour of the vehicle ... but I've never snooped at the data, so not sure if that's fully populated. |
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