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Default Lonely Psychopathic Senile Ozzie Troll Alert!

On Sun, 7 Jul 2019 05:48:39 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:



Surely most all phones now use GPS and not triangulation ?...


But some chose to turn the GPS off to get more time between charges.


ROTFLOL Auto-contradicting SENILE ASSHOLE!

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"Do you practice arguing with yourself in an empty room?"
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On Sat, 06 Jul 2019 20:36:01 +0100, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:

Dave Liquorice formulated on Saturday :
Advantage of a landline (or VOIP number) is that you can register
your address and that pops up on the 999 operators screen.


How does one register one's address?


For a normal plain telephone line you don't. It is entirely
automatic.

As soon as the call is made the BT emergency operator will be shown
the call location. It matters not if you have chosen not to be in the
phone book or have your number withheld.


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In article , Peter Parry
scribeth thus
On Sat, 6 Jul 2019 17:18:03 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:


Mobiles give location with varying degrees of accuracy. The basic
service sends the location of the mast being used via a simultaneous
Emergency SMS. This, in remote areas, can encompass a significant
area and in many rural locations is fairly useless. In urban areas
the basic information is quickly enhanced by mast triangulation as the
call is established. Advanced Mobile Location (AML), if available on
your phone operating system, uses GPS and WiFi location data to refine
location more precisely so works well in rural areas. (It works on
Android, not sure about others). Needless to say most emergency
services use different incompatible systems to handle calls. Some use
a data exchange system called EISEC ( Enhanced Information Service for
Emergency Calls) others voice.


Surely most all phones now use GPS and not triangulation ?...


Most certainly do but by no means all, really dumb phones are becoming
more popular.


Are they?, seems that everyone i know has to have the latest large
screen easily cracked jobbie that keeps mobile screen repairers in a job
at almost the same prices as a car windscreen;!.

Actually we used to use many years ago a system that did use
triangulation and it was pretty hopeless getting a portable latch onto
Three bases when they struggle sometimes to find one?..

Also when relying upon any wireless device it is worth
remembering Marconi's first law of communication - "The ability to
communicate successfully using any wireless system is inversely
proportional to the need to do so"



Don't recall old Guglielmo spouting that;?..

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Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.


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In article , Harry Bloomfield harry.m1byt@N
OSPAM.tiscali.co.uk scribeth thus
Dave Liquorice formulated on Saturday :
Advantage of a landline (or VOIP number) is that you can register
your address and that pops up on the 999 operators screen.


How does one register one's address?


Its on the setup pages of mast all VoIP providers!...
--
Tony Sayer


Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.


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Andy Burns wrote :
then BT (or whoever) already know the address of the line.


'whoever' depends on which way the wind might be blowing, so far as
ISP's - their service and charges. I swap those as necessary. I just
thought the 999 service ought to have instant access to correlate
number with address. On the very rare occasions when I have rung them,
or the less urgent number, they ask me for my address and often as not,
my phone number.


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tony sayer used his keyboard to write :
Don't recall old Guglielmo spouting that;?..


That was the day when he first attempted the transatlantic comms and
failed :-)
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Peter Parry explained :
For a normal plain telephone line you don't. It is entirely
automatic.

As soon as the call is made the BT emergency operator will be shown
the call location. It matters not if you have chosen not to be in the
phone book or have your number withheld.


Thanks!
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"Peter Parry" wrote in message
...
For me, a mobile or a cordless phone that I can take with me as I flee
the building is less risky.


Problem with a cordless is that if the RCD trips (which it will as the
fire develops) the phone becomes useless.


Far enough. But a mobile won't suffer from that.

Mobiles give location with varying degrees of accuracy. The basic
service sends the location of the mast being used via a simultaneous
Emergency SMS. This, in remote areas, can encompass a significant
area and in many rural locations is fairly useless. In urban areas
the basic information is quickly enhanced by mast triangulation as the
call is established. Advanced Mobile Location (AML), if available on
your phone operating system, uses GPS and WiFi location data to refine
location more precisely so works well in rural areas. (It works on
Android, not sure about others). Needless to say most emergency
services use different incompatible systems to handle calls. Some use
a data exchange system called EISEC ( Enhanced Information Service for
Emergency Calls) others voice.


I would always use my phone's own GPS, together with an app such as GPS
Status, to give lat/long or OS grid ref, because I know how imprecise the
mobile phone location (triangulation of masts) can be. Our car satnav has a
option (rather obscure menu - need to remind myself where it is) which gives
lat/long and also a sentence describing the location eg "on A64, 1 mile
south west of junction with B1248".

I bet even if you gave them all that info, some of the 999 operators would
still want to know what the postcode was :-(

I once had to give a location relative to my postcode (walker collapsed on a
footpath behind our house) so I said "Go to postcode X on an OS map; go
southeast about 100 metres along the road and there is a footpath that goes
north east from the road. Casualty is along there - on a footpath about 300
metres from the road." Ambulance crew were geared up for the casualty being
in a house, not on a footpath requiring brisk trot carrying equipment. I
think the info that the sharp-end staff get is severely filtered, and
subject to Chinese whispers.

The fixed line phone (not VOIP) on a wire requires no power and the
emergency call handler knows your precise address immediately. You
don't need to register anything. Simple is sometimes much better.


As long as you can reach your phone from where you are calling. It would be
a lot of work to get phone sockets near to any of the three of the main
exits from the house, and then I'd need to get a landline phone for each
socket with a long enough cord to reach from there to the safe space away
from the house.

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(Alan J. Wylie) writes:

P.S.

In the early 80's, a boarding house at by school had a "Davy Descender"
in one of the dorms.

https://cultureseekers.blog/2018/02/...avy-descender/

https://www.safelincs.co.uk/davy-des...d-fire-escape/

--
Alan J. Wylie https://www.wylie.me.uk/

Dance like no-one's watching. / Encrypt like everyone is.
Security is inversely proportional to convenience


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On Sun, 7 Jul 2019 18:42:48 +0100, "NY" wrote:

"Peter Parry" wrote in message
.. .
For me, a mobile or a cordless phone that I can take with me as I flee
the building is less risky.


Problem with a cordless is that if the RCD trips (which it will as the
fire develops) the phone becomes useless.


Far enough. But a mobile won't suffer from that.

Mobiles give location with varying degrees of accuracy. The basic
service sends the location of the mast being used via a simultaneous
Emergency SMS. This, in remote areas, can encompass a significant
area and in many rural locations is fairly useless. In urban areas
the basic information is quickly enhanced by mast triangulation as the
call is established. Advanced Mobile Location (AML), if available on
your phone operating system, uses GPS and WiFi location data to refine
location more precisely so works well in rural areas. (It works on
Android, not sure about others). Needless to say most emergency
services use different incompatible systems to handle calls. Some use
a data exchange system called EISEC ( Enhanced Information Service for
Emergency Calls) others voice.


I would always use my phone's own GPS, together with an app such as GPS
Status, to give lat/long or OS grid ref, because I know how imprecise the
mobile phone location (triangulation of masts) can be. Our car satnav has a
option (rather obscure menu - need to remind myself where it is) which gives
lat/long and also a sentence describing the location eg "on A64, 1 mile
south west of junction with B1248".


When you call the emergency service at least two operators are
involved. Firstly the BT operated 999 service operator takes the call
and decides which of the 4 services (fire, police, ambulance,
coastguard) to allocate it to. They will contact the appropriate
closest service to the caller and pass any location information they
have. If the local service is busy it will be passed to the next
nearest which may not be much use.

The specific emergency service finds out where you are and what the
problem is and allocates responders.

If you are calling from a fixed line phone they know where you are.
Calling from a mobile the preferred location information is Postcode
because almost everyone knows it (Postcode is used in over 99% of
emergency calls). Failing that address (as in 67 Firtree Lane,
BIggleswade) is preferred.

After that you are in varying degrees of trouble and the chances of
getting the right people to the right place in less than a few days
starts growing. Emergency services are regional and different regions
and different services use different systems.

Police tend to like road name and description, Coastguard like range
and bearing from a prominent point. Some can use lat/long - but which
one? degrees, minutes, and seconds such as 40° 26' 46? N 79° 58' 56?
W,? degrees and decimal minutes, 40° 26.767' N 79° 58.933' W? or
decimal degrees such as 40.446° N 79.982° W. ?

OSGB - but SO 08357 43962 or 308357243962? or 083439?

UTM? 30U 0476779 5770702
MGRS 30UVC76777070

Some ambulance services use the OSGB grid reference - but in the all
number format 308357243962 which is both uncommon and very prone to
transcription errors.

Google maps favours the "plus code" which no one understands "3MP7+FQ
Builth Wells"

By the time you have found an operator who can use what you are giving
them you will probably have had time to rebuild the house never mind
putting the fire out.


I bet even if you gave them all that info, some of the 999 operators would
still want to know what the postcode was :-(


Not some, all :-)

The fixed line phone (not VOIP) on a wire requires no power and the
emergency call handler knows your precise address immediately. You
don't need to register anything. Simple is sometimes much better.


As long as you can reach your phone from where you are calling. It would be
a lot of work to get phone sockets near to any of the three of the main
exits from the house, and then I'd need to get a landline phone for each
socket with a long enough cord to reach from there to the safe space away
from the house.


Assuming you have working smoke detectors you will have several
minutes (at least) warning before a fire gets so fierce it impedes
escape. On a phone near the normal exit route put a long extension
cable, as you go out take the phone with you and call from the door.
You don't need to stay by the phone for long as the operator already
knows your address as soon as you call. You don't really need one by
each door.

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On Fri, 5 Jul 2019 22:13:52 +0100, "NY" wrote:



I keep all my keys (front/back door, car) on a keyring that is always in my
trouser pocket, together with my wallet and mobile phone, with my trousers
close at hand at night. The reason I keep my keys on/near me is mainly so I
don't lose them by absent-mindedly putting them down "somewhere"; the
benefit for emergency situations is a bonus.

Hopefully in an emergency I'd either put my trousers on (if there was time)
or at least grab them, and so have the means to open doors, call the
emergency services, and move my car if that would make it easier for
emergency vehicles (or if it put it out of range of the fire setting the
fuel tank on fire, making a small fire bigger).


At least I wouldn't be faffing around trying to remember where each set of
keys were.


Many years ago the fire service responded to a house fire in a house
with two adults and two children. We found the family dead behind the
locked front door. The door key, which neighbours later told us was
usually on a shelf by the door, was found under the fathers body.

I am a great supporter of final exit doors which cannot be locked from
inside.

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Peter Parry wrote:
On Sun, 7 Jul 2019 18:42:48 +0100, "NY" wrote:

"Peter Parry" wrote in message
...
For me, a mobile or a cordless phone that I can take with me as I flee
the building is less risky.

Problem with a cordless is that if the RCD trips (which it will as the
fire develops) the phone becomes useless.


Far enough. But a mobile won't suffer from that.

Mobiles give location with varying degrees of accuracy. The basic
service sends the location of the mast being used via a simultaneous
Emergency SMS. This, in remote areas, can encompass a significant
area and in many rural locations is fairly useless. In urban areas
the basic information is quickly enhanced by mast triangulation as the
call is established. Advanced Mobile Location (AML), if available on
your phone operating system, uses GPS and WiFi location data to refine
location more precisely so works well in rural areas. (It works on
Android, not sure about others). Needless to say most emergency
services use different incompatible systems to handle calls. Some use
a data exchange system called EISEC ( Enhanced Information Service for
Emergency Calls) others voice.


I would always use my phone's own GPS, together with an app such as GPS
Status, to give lat/long or OS grid ref, because I know how imprecise the
mobile phone location (triangulation of masts) can be. Our car satnav has a
option (rather obscure menu - need to remind myself where it is) which gives
lat/long and also a sentence describing the location eg "on A64, 1 mile
south west of junction with B1248".


When you call the emergency service at least two operators are
involved. Firstly the BT operated 999 service operator takes the call
and decides which of the 4 services (fire, police, ambulance,
coastguard) to allocate it to. They will contact the appropriate
closest service to the caller and pass any location information they
have. If the local service is busy it will be passed to the next
nearest which may not be much use.

The specific emergency service finds out where you are and what the
problem is and allocates responders.

If you are calling from a fixed line phone they know where you are.
Calling from a mobile the preferred location information is Postcode
because almost everyone knows it (Postcode is used in over 99% of
emergency calls). Failing that address (as in 67 Firtree Lane,
BIggleswade) is preferred.

After that you are in varying degrees of trouble and the chances of
getting the right people to the right place in less than a few days
starts growing. Emergency services are regional and different regions
and different services use different systems.

Police tend to like road name and description, Coastguard like range
and bearing from a prominent point. Some can use lat/long - but which
one? degrees, minutes, and seconds such as 40° 26' 46? N 79° 58' 56?
W,? degrees and decimal minutes, 40° 26.767' N 79° 58.933' W? or
decimal degrees such as 40.446° N 79.982° W. ?

OSGB - but SO 08357 43962 or 308357243962? or 083439?

UTM? 30U 0476779 5770702
MGRS 30UVC76777070

Some ambulance services use the OSGB grid reference - but in the all
number format 308357243962 which is both uncommon and very prone to
transcription errors.

Google maps favours the "plus code" which no one understands "3MP7+FQ
Builth Wells"

By the time you have found an operator who can use what you are giving
them you will probably have had time to rebuild the house never mind
putting the fire out.


That certainly accords with my recent experience of trying to contact
emergency services. I got the distinct impression that the emergency
services consider using the internet to find out *anything* regarding
location as unsporting.

Tim


--
Please don't feed the trolls
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Tim+ wrote:

I got the distinct impression that the emergency
services consider using the internet to find out*anything* regarding
location as unsporting.


The control operators PCs in the county I have dealings with are
restricted to a handful of websites (environment agency, met office etc)
.... though they do have other PCs in the control suite with full
internet access.
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On 08/07/2019 12:35, Peter Parry wrote:
On Sun, 7 Jul 2019 18:42:48 +0100, "NY" wrote:

"Peter Parry" wrote in message
...
For me, a mobile or a cordless phone that I can take with me as I flee
the building is less risky.

Problem with a cordless is that if the RCD trips (which it will as the
fire develops) the phone becomes useless.


Far enough. But a mobile won't suffer from that.

Mobiles give location with varying degrees of accuracy. The basic
service sends the location of the mast being used via a simultaneous
Emergency SMS. This, in remote areas, can encompass a significant
area and in many rural locations is fairly useless. In urban areas
the basic information is quickly enhanced by mast triangulation as the
call is established. Advanced Mobile Location (AML), if available on
your phone operating system, uses GPS and WiFi location data to refine
location more precisely so works well in rural areas. (It works on
Android, not sure about others). Needless to say most emergency
services use different incompatible systems to handle calls. Some use
a data exchange system called EISEC ( Enhanced Information Service for
Emergency Calls) others voice.


I would always use my phone's own GPS, together with an app such as GPS
Status, to give lat/long or OS grid ref, because I know how imprecise the
mobile phone location (triangulation of masts) can be. Our car satnav has a
option (rather obscure menu - need to remind myself where it is) which gives
lat/long and also a sentence describing the location eg "on A64, 1 mile
south west of junction with B1248".


When you call the emergency service at least two operators are
involved. Firstly the BT operated 999 service operator takes the call
and decides which of the 4 services (fire, police, ambulance,
coastguard) to allocate it to. They will contact the appropriate
closest service to the caller and pass any location information they
have. If the local service is busy it will be passed to the next
nearest which may not be much use.

The specific emergency service finds out where you are and what the
problem is and allocates responders.

If you are calling from a fixed line phone they know where you are.
Calling from a mobile the preferred location information is Postcode
because almost everyone knows it (Postcode is used in over 99% of
emergency calls). Failing that address (as in 67 Firtree Lane,
BIggleswade) is preferred.

After that you are in varying degrees of trouble and the chances of
getting the right people to the right place in less than a few days
starts growing. Emergency services are regional and different regions
and different services use different systems.

Police tend to like road name and description, Coastguard like range
and bearing from a prominent point. Some can use lat/long - but which
one? degrees, minutes, and seconds such as 40° 26' 46? N 79° 58' 56?
W,? degrees and decimal minutes, 40° 26.767' N 79° 58.933' W? or
decimal degrees such as 40.446° N 79.982° W. ?

OSGB - but SO 08357 43962 or 308357243962? or 083439?

UTM? 30U 0476779 5770702
MGRS 30UVC76777070


My ancient Satnav will take a variety of them (I can't remember which
off hand, although it definitely does DMS and I'm pretty sure it does
both decimal minutes and decimal degree options, plus OS.

It is appalling that emergency service operators don't have a mapping
system that can take any of the various options as a standard piece of
software running all the time.

SteveW


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When you call the emergency service at least two operators are
involved. Firstly the BT operated 999 service operator takes the call
and decides which of the 4 services (fire, police, ambulance,
coastguard) to allocate it to. They will contact the appropriate
closest service to the caller and pass any location information they
have. If the local service is busy it will be passed to the next
nearest which may not be much use.

The specific emergency service finds out where you are and what the
problem is and allocates responders.

If you are calling from a fixed line phone they know where you are.
Calling from a mobile the preferred location information is Postcode
because almost everyone knows it (Postcode is used in over 99% of
emergency calls). Failing that address (as in 67 Firtree Lane,
BIggleswade) is preferred.

After that you are in varying degrees of trouble and the chances of
getting the right people to the right place in less than a few days
starts growing. Emergency services are regional and different regions
and different services use different systems.

Police tend to like road name and description, Coastguard like range
and bearing from a prominent point. Some can use lat/long - but which
one? degrees, minutes, and seconds such as 40° 26' 46? N 79° 58' 56?
W,? degrees and decimal minutes, 40° 26.767' N 79° 58.933' W? or
decimal degrees such as 40.446° N 79.982° W. ?

OSGB - but SO 08357 43962 or 308357243962? or 083439?

UTM? 30U 0476779 5770702
MGRS 30UVC76777070

Some ambulance services use the OSGB grid reference - but in the all
number format 308357243962 which is both uncommon and very prone to
transcription errors.

Google maps favours the "plus code" which no one understands "3MP7+FQ
Builth Wells"


Good points but you'd have thought by now that there would be a
standardised location system that for instance could be incorporated in
a mobile that when you made a 112 or 999 call then that info was
transmitted to the emergency services so they'd know exactly were you
are rightaway without any fuss to which standard you were using?..

This what three words system seems over complicated for what it is there
are plenty of GPS enabled apps for mobiles indeed car sat navs should
have an located emergency option easy to get to when needed that uses
probably the simplest and that in my mind is decimal Lat and Long

Ever two letter NGR with six digits is good to within a 100 metres
accuracy much better then to trying to get a street address or Postcode
what Wally dreamt that up?.


--
Tony Sayer


Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.


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tony sayer wrote:

you'd have thought by now that there would be a
standardised location system that for instance could be incorporated in
a mobile that when you made a 112 or 999 call then that info was
transmitted to the emergency services so they'd know exactly were you
are rightaway without any fuss to which standard you were using?..


BT provide data via the EISEC system ...

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In article , Andy Burns
scribeth thus
tony sayer wrote:

you'd have thought by now that there would be a
standardised location system that for instance could be incorporated in
a mobile that when you made a 112 or 999 call then that info was
transmitted to the emergency services so they'd know exactly were you
are rightaway without any fuss to which standard you were using?..


BT provide data via the EISEC system ...



AMLit seems?..


AML was developed in the United Kingdom by British Telecom, EE Limited,
and HTC as a solution to problematic caller location in emergencies.[2]
When a person in distress calls the emergency services with a smart-
phone where AML is enabled, the telephone automatically activates its
location service to establish its position and sends this information to
the emergency services via an SMS.[3] The services uses either a global
navigation satellite system or WiFi depending on which one is better at
the given moment. It was estimated that this technique is up to 4000
times more accurate than the previously used system.[4] AML is being
implemented in the UK by an increasing number of smart-phone
manufacturers and mobile network operators: BT, the mobile networks EE,
O2 and Three, together with Apple Inc., HTC, Sony, Alcatel, and Samsung
handsets, have already successfully implemented AML.[5]
--
Tony Sayer


Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.


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tony sayer wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

BT provide data via the EISEC system ...


AML it seems?..


Never heard that term, I just setup the firewall rules to allow servers
to reach EISEC servers; supposedly for mobiles it transmits a
co-ordinate with major/minor radii of an ellipse that the phone is
within, and if it's from an eCall SIM embedded in a car it gives the
VIN, reg number, make, model, colour of the vehicle ... but I've never
snooped at the data, so not sure if that's fully populated.

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