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Old June 21st 19, 11:39 PM posted to alt.electronics,uk.rec.driving,alt.home.repair,uk.d-i-y
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Default Lead acid battery charger (or alternator) switching to trickle with load present?



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 21:54:38 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:

Commander Kinsey wrote

How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge?


From the current the battery takes.

I can understand it noticing a drop in charging current if the battery
is
on its own, but what if a random changing load is connected, as there is
in a running car?


You just look at the current going to the battery. The variably
loads like with lights isnt supplied by the battery when the
engine is running, its supplied by the alternator.


But how can the regulator on the alternator possibly know the current it's
passing to the battery is going into the battery and not going straight
across to the lights?


The computer knows whats going to the battery and you can see that with an
ODB2 dongle.

If you look at the battery in your car, there are two or three thick wires
coming off each terminal. One will go to the alternator, another to the
fusebox for all the lights etc.


And it's the voltage across the one going from the alternator to the battery
that allows the computer to know how much current is going to the battery.

Unless there's some clever circuitry monitoring each battery wire
individually and subtracting the currents,


Yes there is, its called the computer.

the alternator can't tell the difference between a battery taking 12 amps,
and a battery taking 2 amps plus lights taking 10 amps.


But the computer can. And knows if the lights are on too.

The second one requires switching to trickle charge, the first doesn't.



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Old June 21st 19, 11:45 PM posted to alt.electronics,uk.rec.driving,alt.home.repair,uk.d-i-y
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Default Lead acid battery charger (or alternator) switching to tricklewith load present?

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:39:34 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 21:54:38 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:

Commander Kinsey wrote

How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge?

From the current the battery takes.

I can understand it noticing a drop in charging current if the battery
is
on its own, but what if a random changing load is connected, as there is
in a running car?

You just look at the current going to the battery. The variably
loads like with lights isnt supplied by the battery when the
engine is running, its supplied by the alternator.


But how can the regulator on the alternator possibly know the current it's
passing to the battery is going into the battery and not going straight
across to the lights?


The computer knows whats going to the battery and you can see that with an
ODB2 dongle.


My dongle only lists faults.

If you look at the battery in your car, there are two or three thick wires
coming off each terminal. One will go to the alternator, another to the
fusebox for all the lights etc.


And it's the voltage across the one going from the alternator to the battery
that allows the computer to know how much current is going to the battery.


Bull****. How could it possibly know if the current flows into the battery or goes to the other wire leading to the fusebox?

Unless there's some clever circuitry monitoring each battery wire
individually and subtracting the currents,


Yes there is, its called the computer.


So what happened with older cars before they did that?

the alternator can't tell the difference between a battery taking 12 amps,
and a battery taking 2 amps plus lights taking 10 amps.


But the computer can. And knows if the lights are on too.

The second one requires switching to trickle charge, the first doesn't.

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Old June 21st 19, 11:54 PM posted to alt.electronics,uk.rec.driving,alt.home.repair,uk.d-i-y
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Posts: 507
Default Lonely Psychopathic Senile Ozzie Troll Alert!

On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 08:39:34 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


The computer knows


The troll knows how to bait all you senile assholes successfully, senile
asshole!

--
Sqwertz to Rot Speed:
"This is just a hunch, but I'm betting you're kinda an argumentative
asshole.
MID:
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Old June 21st 19, 11:57 PM posted to alt.electronics,uk.rec.driving,alt.home.repair,uk.d-i-y
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Default Lead acid battery charger (or alternator) switching to trickle with load present?



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:57:44 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:

On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?


The voltage perhaps.


Why would the voltage change?


That's the way batterys work, the battery voltage does change as its
charged.

That's determined by the alternator or charger.


Nope.

Let's say the charger/alternator gives out 14.4V initially, to charge the
battery quickly. It'll just sit at 14.4V forever, providing the charger
can give out enough current to charge the slightly flat battery and power
any connected loads.


Its more complicated than that with the current going to the battery and the
battery is charged.

If the battery had no loads connected, it would take a lot less current
when it became full, but the voltage would stay the same.


No it doesn't even with a very crude battery charger.

If the charger monitored the current it was providing, how does it know if
the battery is still charging at 10 amps, or if the battery is full and
there's a 10 amp load?


By checking the current actually being delivered to the battery.

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Old June 22nd 19, 12:25 AM posted to alt.electronics,uk.rec.driving,alt.home.repair,uk.d-i-y
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Posts: 507
Default Lonely Psychopathic Senile Ozzie Troll Alert!

On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 08:57:52 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


That's the way batterys work


That's the way how your and his trolling work, you senile asshole troll!

--
Bod addressing senile Rot:
"Rod, you have a sick twisted mind. I suggest you stop your mindless
and totally irresponsible talk. Your mouth could get you into a lot of
trouble."
Message-ID:


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Old June 22nd 19, 12:26 AM posted to alt.electronics,uk.rec.driving,alt.home.repair,uk.d-i-y
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Posts: 32,233
Default Lead acid battery charger (or alternator) switching to trickle with load present?



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:39:34 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 21:54:38 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:

Commander Kinsey wrote

How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge?

From the current the battery takes.

I can understand it noticing a drop in charging current if the battery
is
on its own, but what if a random changing load is connected, as there
is
in a running car?

You just look at the current going to the battery. The variably
loads like with lights isnt supplied by the battery when the
engine is running, its supplied by the alternator.


But how can the regulator on the alternator possibly know the current
it's
passing to the battery is going into the battery and not going straight
across to the lights?


The computer knows whats going to the battery and you can see that with
an ODB2 dongle.


My dongle only lists faults.


Because it's a steaming turd with wheels frog car.

Most show all sorts of things.

If you look at the battery in your car, there are two or three thick
wires
coming off each terminal. One will go to the alternator, another to the
fusebox for all the lights etc.


And it's the voltage across the one going from the alternator to the
battery
that allows the computer to know how much current is going to the
battery.


Bull****.


We'll see...

How could it possibly know if the current flows into the battery or goes
to the other wire leading to the fusebox?


By measuring the voltage drop across those cables, stupid.

Unless there's some clever circuitry monitoring each

battery wire individually and subtracting the currents,


Yes there is, its called the computer.


So what happened with older cars before they did that?


The voltage across the battery changes as the battery is charged.

the alternator can't tell the difference between a battery taking 12
amps,
and a battery taking 2 amps plus lights taking 10 amps.


But the computer can. And knows if the lights are on too.

The second one requires switching to trickle charge, the first doesn't.


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Old June 22nd 19, 12:33 AM posted to alt.electronics,uk.rec.driving,alt.home.repair,uk.d-i-y
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Default Lead acid battery charger (or alternator) switching to tricklewith load present?

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:57:52 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:57:44 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:

On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

The voltage perhaps.


Why would the voltage change?


That's the way batterys work, the battery voltage does change as its
charged.

That's determined by the alternator or charger.


Nope.


Yip. I can put any voltage I like across a battery's terminals. The battery then chooses how much current is drawn.

Let's say the charger/alternator gives out 14.4V initially, to charge the
battery quickly. It'll just sit at 14.4V forever, providing the charger
can give out enough current to charge the slightly flat battery and power
any connected loads.


Its more complicated than that with the current going to the battery and the
battery is charged.

If the battery had no loads connected, it would take a lot less current
when it became full, but the voltage would stay the same.


No it doesn't even with a very crude battery charger.


For example, I'm currently keeping my car's battery topped up with a bench supply overnight. It's set to 13.8V, with a current limiter only to prevent overloading the supply. The voltage stays at 13.8V all the time, sometimes 100mA is drawn, sometimes up to 4A. The only way I or the supply can tell the battery is full, is by the current dropping to 100mA. But it's actually always full, as when 4A is drawn, that's going to a load.

If the charger monitored the current it was providing, how does it know if
the battery is still charging at 10 amps, or if the battery is full and
there's a 10 amp load?


By checking the current actually being delivered to the battery.


I guess that may be true, if the car's computer has two ammeters and subtracts one from the other. But AFAIK, the alternator regulator only works by it's own current sensor. And that current could be going into the battery, or past it to the loads.
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Old June 22nd 19, 12:37 AM posted to alt.electronics,uk.rec.driving,alt.home.repair,uk.d-i-y
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Posts: 899
Default Lead acid battery charger (or alternator) switching to tricklewith load present?

On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 00:26:13 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:39:34 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 21:54:38 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:

Commander Kinsey wrote

How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge?

From the current the battery takes.

I can understand it noticing a drop in charging current if the battery
is
on its own, but what if a random changing load is connected, as there
is
in a running car?

You just look at the current going to the battery. The variably
loads like with lights isnt supplied by the battery when the
engine is running, its supplied by the alternator.

But how can the regulator on the alternator possibly know the current
it's
passing to the battery is going into the battery and not going straight
across to the lights?


The computer knows whats going to the battery and you can see that with
an ODB2 dongle.


My dongle only lists faults.


Because it's a steaming turd with wheels frog car.


Which should adhere to the ****ing OBD standards according to the frog's own EU regs!!

And a very basic OBD reader I bought to determine why a warning light was on.

Most show all sorts of things.

If you look at the battery in your car, there are two or three thick
wires
coming off each terminal. One will go to the alternator, another to the
fusebox for all the lights etc.

And it's the voltage across the one going from the alternator to the
battery that allows the computer to know how much current is going to the
battery.


Bull****.


We'll see...

How could it possibly know if the current flows into the battery or goes
to the other wire leading to the fusebox?


By measuring the voltage drop across those cables, stupid.

Unless there's some clever circuitry monitoring each
battery wire individually and subtracting the currents,


Yes there is, its called the computer.


So what happened with older cars before they did that?


The voltage across the battery changes as the battery is charged.


Wrong. Say the alternator can produce 14V at up to 50 amps. When the battery has been used to start the car and perhaps run some lights when the engine was off, it takes maybe 25A, and the voltage is 14V, regulated by the alternator's circuitry. When the battery becomes full, it takes only a fraction of an amp, but the voltage is still 14V. What needs to be measured is the current going into the battery, and that cannot be done by just measuring the current coming from the alternator, as that could also be going to lights, heaters, spark plugs, etc, etc.

the alternator can't tell the difference between a battery taking 12
amps,
and a battery taking 2 amps plus lights taking 10 amps.

But the computer can. And knows if the lights are on too.

The second one requires switching to trickle charge, the first doesn't.

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Old June 22nd 19, 12:49 AM posted to alt.electronics,uk.rec.driving,alt.home.repair,uk.d-i-y
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First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Jun 2019
Posts: 507
Default Lonely Psychopathic Senile Ozzie Troll Alert!

On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 09:26:13 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the two clinically insane asshole's latest troll**** unread


--
Richard addressing Rot Speed:
"**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID:
  #20   Report Post  
Old June 22nd 19, 12:57 AM posted to alt.electronics,uk.rec.driving,alt.home.repair,uk.d-i-y
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First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 32,233
Default Lead acid battery charger (or alternator) switching to trickle with load present?



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 23:57:52 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 22:57:44 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:

On 21/06/2019 21:19, Commander Kinsey wrote:
How does a lead acid battery charger (or car alternator) know when to
switch to trickle charge? I can understand it noticing a drop in
charging current if the battery is on its own, but what if a random
changing load is connected, as there is in a running car?

The voltage perhaps.


Why would the voltage change?


That's the way batterys work, the battery voltage does change as its
charged.

That's determined by the alternator or charger.


Nope.


Yip.


Nope.

I can put any voltage I like across a battery's terminals.


Nope.

The battery then chooses how much current is drawn.


And that current changes depending on the how charged the battery is.

Let's say the charger/alternator gives out 14.4V initially, to charge
the
battery quickly. It'll just sit at 14.4V forever, providing the charger
can give out enough current to charge the slightly flat battery and
power
any connected loads.


Its more complicated than that with the current going to the battery and
the
battery is charged.

If the battery had no loads connected, it would take a lot less current
when it became full, but the voltage would stay the same.


No it doesn't even with a very crude battery charger.


For example, I'm currently keeping my car's battery topped up with a bench
supply overnight. It's set to 13.8V, with a current limiter only to
prevent overloading the supply.


It actually specify the current being supplied.

The voltage stays at 13.8V all the time, sometimes 100mA is drawn,
sometimes up to 4A. The only way I or the supply can tell the battery is
full, is by the current dropping to 100mA. But it's actually always full,
as when 4A is drawn, that's going to a load.


What load ? There no load with a battery being charged with a bench supply.

If the charger monitored the current it was providing, how does it know
if the battery is still charging at 10 amps, or if the battery is full
and there's a 10 amp load?


By checking the current actually being delivered to the battery.


I guess that may be true, if the car's computer has two ammeters


It has more than one wire to the positive terminal of the battery.
So it can see what current is going to the rest of the car.

and subtracts one from the other. But AFAIK, the alternator regulator
only works by it's own current sensor. And that current could be going
into the battery, or past it to the loads.


Not when there is more than one wire going to the
positive terminal of the battery, and there always is.



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