Extending a 13A ring main under a floor - suitable connectors?
 

Last time I did this I used a grey Wago box with the push connectors
inside.

I do have one in stock (but need to double check that the connectors are
suitable for 13A ring main).
The box has 3 * 2 wire 773 connectors which are yellow plastic.
773 should be good for up to 2.5 mm and 24A so presumably are suitable?
Can someone please confirm?





Looking for options on line I also find things such as
https://www.screwfix.com/p/3-way-lev...2-series-pack-
of-50/76776
which are shown inside a wall box.

For future reference, is the grey Wago box and 773 style connectors the
best way to extend a 13A ring, or is there a better option?


Thanks




Dave R



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Extending a 13A ring main under a floor - suitable connectors?
 

On Thursday, 6 June 2019 12:37:50 UTC+1, David WE Roberts (Google) wrote:
Last time I did this I used a grey Wago box with the push connectors
inside.

I do have one in stock (but need to double check that the connectors are
suitable for 13A ring main).
The box has 3 * 2 wire 773 connectors which are yellow plastic.
773 should be good for up to 2.5 mm and 24A so presumably are suitable?
Can someone please confirm?





Looking for options on line I also find things such as
https://www.screwfix.com/p/3-way-lev...2-series-pack-
of-50/76776
which are shown inside a wall box.

For future reference, is the grey Wago box and 773 style connectors the
best way to extend a 13A ring, or is there a better option?


Thanks




Dave R

If you've already got it, it's probably the best option


NT

Extending a 13A ring main under a floor - suitable connectors?
 

David wrote:

The box has 3 * 2 wire 773 connectors which are yellow plastic.
773 should be good for up to 2.5 mm and 24A so presumably are suitable?
Can someone please confirm?

As the 773-102 is only rated to 24A, but the ring will likely have a 32A
MCB, really you should use a 222-412 wago connector instead.

Extending a 13A ring main under a floor - suitable connectors?
 

On Thu, 06 Jun 2019 12:48:52 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

David wrote:

The box has 3 * 2 wire 773 connectors which are yellow plastic.
773 should be good for up to 2.5 mm and 24A so presumably are suitable?
Can someone please confirm?

As the 773-102 is only rated to 24A, but the ring will likely have a 32A
MCB, really you should use a 222-412 wago connector instead.

Thanks - that was something which was nagging at the back of my mind.

We have RCBOs but the same principle should apply.

Cheers


Dave R


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Extending a 13A ring main under a floor - suitable connectors?
 

On Thursday, 6 June 2019 13:22:24 UTC+1, David WE Roberts (Google) wrote:
On Thu, 06 Jun 2019 12:48:52 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:
David wrote:

The box has 3 * 2 wire 773 connectors which are yellow plastic.
773 should be good for up to 2.5 mm and 24A so presumably are suitable?
Can someone please confirm?

As the 773-102 is only rated to 24A, but the ring will likely have a 32A
MCB, really you should use a 222-412 wago connector instead.

Thanks - that was something which was nagging at the back of my mind.

We have RCBOs but the same principle should apply.

Cheers


Dave R

2.5 T&E is not rated to 32A, nor does it need to be on a 32A MCBed ring.


NT

Extending a 13A ring main under a floor - suitable connectors?
 

On Thu, 06 Jun 2019 05:29:16 -0700, tabbypurr wrote:

On Thursday, 6 June 2019 13:22:24 UTC+1, David WE Roberts (Google)
wrote:
On Thu, 06 Jun 2019 12:48:52 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:
David wrote:

The box has 3 * 2 wire 773 connectors which are yellow plastic.
773 should be good for up to 2.5 mm and 24A so presumably are
suitable?
Can someone please confirm?

As the 773-102 is only rated to 24A, but the ring will likely have a
32A MCB, really you should use a 222-412 wago connector instead.

Thanks - that was something which was nagging at the back of my mind.

We have RCBOs but the same principle should apply.

Cheers


Dave R

2.5 T&E is not rated to 32A, nor does it need to be on a 32A MCBed ring.


NT

Well, the RCBO is rated at 32A.

However on a ring main the load should go both ways.
Unless one part of the ring fails.

Ummm....

Cheers



Dave R


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Extending a 13A ring main under a floor - suitable connectors?
 

Extending a 13A ring main under a floor - suitable connectors?
 

On Thu, 06 Jun 2019 14:03:55 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

wrote:

2.5 T&E is not rated to 32A, nor does it need to be on a 32A MCBed
ring.

But it is rated at up to 27A, so using a connector rated at only 24A
makes it the weak link, after all we don't know how far round the ring
this junction box is ...

Box of 222-412 ordered from Amazon.

Thanks


Dave R

--
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Extending a 13A ring main under a floor - suitable connectors?
 

On Thursday, 6 June 2019 14:03:59 UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
tabbypurr wrote:

2.5 T&E is not rated to 32A, nor does it need to be on a 32A MCBed ring.

But it is rated at up to 27A, so using a connector rated at only 24A
makes it the weak link, after all we don't know how far round the ring
this junction box is ...

2.5 T&E is rated at 13.5 to 27A depending on install method.


NT

Extending a 13A ring main under a floor - suitable connectors?
 

Extending a 13A ring main under a floor - suitable connectors?
 

On 06/06/2019 12:48, Andy Burns wrote:
David wrote:

The box has 3 * 2 wire 773 connectors which are yellow plastic.
773 should be good for up to 2.5 mm and 24A so presumably are suitable?
Can someone please confirm?

As the 773-102 is only rated to 24A, but the ring will likely have a 32A
MCB, really you should use a 222-412 wago connector instead.

Any given cable in a 32A ring is only sized on the assumption it will
carry 20A or less at any given point in the ring.

Ditto a spur (double 13A sockets in general don't like more than 20A
combined load, seem to recall possibly MK publishing a study on that).

--
Email does not work

Extending a 13A ring main under a floor - suitable connectors?
 

On 06/06/2019 14:03, Andy Burns wrote:
wrote:

2.5 T&E is not rated to 32A, nor does it need to be on a 32A MCBed ring.

But it is rated at up to 27A, so using a connector rated at only 24A
makes it the weak link, after all we don't know how far round the ring
this junction box is ...

Only if clipped in free air.

In conduit, under insulation etc it is rather less;

But should be =20A for the installation method and conditions.


433.1.103 in the green book give the 20A figure.

--
Email does not work

Extending a 13A ring main under a floor - suitable connectors?
 

On 06/06/2019 12:48, Andy Burns wrote:
David wrote:

The box has 3 * 2 wire 773 connectors which are yellow plastic.
773 should be good for up to 2.5 mm and 24A so presumably are suitable?
Can someone please confirm?

As the 773-102 is only rated to 24A, but the ring will likely have a 32A
MCB, really you should use a 222-412 wago connector instead.

The "as installed" required rating for a cable on a 32A ring is only
21A, so in general 24A should be ok, unless you are aware of specific
reasons why it should not be (say the joint was at one end of an
asymmetric ring)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Extending a 13A ring main under a floor - suitable connectors?
 

On 06/06/2019 14:03, Andy Burns wrote:
wrote:

2.5 T&E is not rated to 32A, nor does it need to be on a 32A MCBed ring.

But it is rated at up to 27A, so using a connector rated at only 24A
makes it the weak link, after all we don't know how far round the ring
this junction box is ...

The up to 27A figure assumes the cables are "clipped direct" or
embedded in masonry/plaster. In reality the actual capacity may be lower.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Extending a 13A ring main under a floor - suitable connectors?
 

On 06/06/2019 18:46, John Rumm wrote:
On 06/06/2019 12:48, Andy Burns wrote:
David wrote:

The box has 3 * 2 wire 773 connectors which are yellow plastic.
773 should be good for up to 2.5 mm and 24A so presumably are suitable?
Can someone please confirm?

As the 773-102 is only rated to 24A, but the ring will likely have a
32A MCB, really you should use a 222-412 wago connector instead.

The "as installed" required rating for a cable on a 32A ring is only
21A, so in general 24A should be ok, unless you are aware of specific
reasons why it should not be (say the joint was at one end of an
asymmetric ring)


What is an asymmetric ring?
Only the installer will know where the cables go so any ring could have
an asymmetric load put on it by a householder. It just depends on what
he plugs in.

Extending a 13A ring main under a floor - suitable connectors?
 

On 06/06/2019 20:47, dennis@home wrote:
On 06/06/2019 18:46, John Rumm wrote:
On 06/06/2019 12:48, Andy Burns wrote:
David wrote:

The box has 3 * 2 wire 773 connectors which are yellow plastic.
773 should be good for up to 2.5 mm and 24A so presumably are suitable?
Can someone please confirm?

As the 773-102 is only rated to 24A, but the ring will likely have a
32A MCB, really you should use a 222-412 wago connector instead.

The "as installed" required rating for a cable on a 32A ring is only
21A, so in general 24A should be ok, unless you are aware of specific
reasons why it should not be (say the joint was at one end of an
asymmetric ring)


What is an asymmetric ring?

One with most of the sockets distributed near one end of it... Say where
someone has installed a long run of sockets starting close to the CU,
and then just returned the last leg from the far end, rather than
distributing the load on the way out and the way back IYSWIM.

Only the installer will know where the cables go so any ring could have
an asymmetric load put on it by a householder. It just depends on what
he plugs in.

Well we are talking about someone modifying the wiring, not just normal
use. So hopefully the installer will have some clue. If they were
unsure, then upping the terminal capacity to the higher load version
would be a sensible mitigation.




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Extending a 13A ring main under a floor - suitable connectors?
 

On 07/06/2019 13:01, John Rumm wrote:
On 06/06/2019 20:47, dennis@home wrote:
On 06/06/2019 18:46, John Rumm wrote:
On 06/06/2019 12:48, Andy Burns wrote:
David wrote:

The box has 3 * 2 wire 773 connectors which are yellow plastic.
773 should be good for up to 2.5 mm and 24A so presumably are
suitable?
Can someone please confirm?

As the 773-102 is only rated to 24A, but the ring will likely have a
32A MCB, really you should use a 222-412 wago connector instead.

The "as installed" required rating for a cable on a 32A ring is only
21A, so in general 24A should be ok, unless you are aware of specific
reasons why it should not be (say the joint was at one end of an
asymmetric ring)


What is an asymmetric ring?

One with most of the sockets distributed near one end of it... Say where
someone has installed a long run of sockets starting close to the CU,
and then just returned the last leg from the far end, rather than
distributing the load on the way out and the way back IYSWIM.

Only the installer will know where the cables go so any ring could
have an asymmetric load put on it by a householder. It just depends on
what he plugs in.

Well we are talking about someone modifying the wiring, not just normal
use. So hopefully the installer will have some clue. If they were
unsure, then upping the terminal capacity to the higher load version
would be a sensible mitigation.





It doesn't really work though.
You have to assume they will not plug high power loads into sockets that
may be at one end but there is nothing to tell them that they are at one
end.
Its easy to abuse a ring and not even know.

My ring is fused at 20A so can't be abused.
It doesn't have to be a ring then so if it goes faulty it won't matter.
Rings do go faulty and its just about impossible for 99.99% of users to
know it has.

You really have to disconnect it at the CU and meter it to find a fault
although you may be able to find it with a clamp meter if you have
enough free cable at the sockets.

Neither option is going to be any use to most people.

Maybe its time the standards for CUs to included test points that
disconnect to ring and allowed you to test it without exposing any mains.

They do this on telephone lines in exchanges, not that you need to with
the automatic test network we supplied.

..

Extending a 13A ring main under a floor - suitable connectors?
 

On Fri, 07 Jun 2019 13:01:19 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

On 06/06/2019 20:47, dennis@home wrote:
On 06/06/2019 18:46, John Rumm wrote:
On 06/06/2019 12:48, Andy Burns wrote:
David wrote:

The box has 3 * 2 wire 773 connectors which are yellow plastic.
773 should be good for up to 2.5 mm and 24A so presumably are
suitable?
Can someone please confirm?

As the 773-102 is only rated to 24A, but the ring will likely have a
32A MCB, really you should use a 222-412 wago connector instead.

The "as installed" required rating for a cable on a 32A ring is only
21A, so in general 24A should be ok, unless you are aware of specific
reasons why it should not be (say the joint was at one end of an
asymmetric ring)


What is an asymmetric ring?

One with most of the sockets distributed near one end of it... Say where
someone has installed a long run of sockets starting close to the CU,
and then just returned the last leg from the far end, rather than
distributing the load on the way out and the way back IYSWIM.

Only the installer will know where the cables go so any ring could have
an asymmetric load put on it by a householder. It just depends on what
he plugs in.

Well we are talking about someone modifying the wiring, not just normal
use. So hopefully the installer will have some clue. If they were
unsure, then upping the terminal capacity to the higher load version
would be a sensible mitigation.

Upping the terminal load is the way I am going - I assume from "should be
OK" to "are you sure you need that much?". :-)

Cheers



Dave R


--
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Extending a 13A ring main under a floor - suitable connectors?
 

On 07/06/2019 15:32, dennis@home wrote:
On 07/06/2019 13:01, John Rumm wrote:
On 06/06/2019 20:47, dennis@home wrote:
On 06/06/2019 18:46, John Rumm wrote:
On 06/06/2019 12:48, Andy Burns wrote:
David wrote:

The box has 3 * 2 wire 773 connectors which are yellow plastic.
773 should be good for up to 2.5 mm and 24A so presumably are
suitable?
Can someone please confirm?

As the 773-102 is only rated to 24A, but the ring will likely have
a 32A MCB, really you should use a 222-412 wago connector instead.

The "as installed" required rating for a cable on a 32A ring is only
21A, so in general 24A should be ok, unless you are aware of
specific reasons why it should not be (say the joint was at one end
of an asymmetric ring)


What is an asymmetric ring?

One with most of the sockets distributed near one end of it... Say
where someone has installed a long run of sockets starting close to
the CU, and then just returned the last leg from the far end, rather
than distributing the load on the way out and the way back IYSWIM.

Only the installer will know where the cables go so any ring could
have an asymmetric load put on it by a householder. It just depends
on what he plugs in.

Well we are talking about someone modifying the wiring, not just
normal use. So hopefully the installer will have some clue. If they
were unsure, then upping the terminal capacity to the higher load
version would be a sensible mitigation.





It doesn't really work though.
You have to assume they will not plug high power loads into sockets that
may be at one end but there is nothing to tell them that they are at one
end.

I think we have done this discussion before.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Extending a 13A ring main under a floor - suitable connectors?
 

On Friday, 7 June 2019 15:32:38 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
On 07/06/2019 13:01, John Rumm wrote:
On 06/06/2019 20:47, dennis@home wrote:
On 06/06/2019 18:46, John Rumm wrote:
On 06/06/2019 12:48, Andy Burns wrote:
David wrote:

The box has 3 * 2 wire 773 connectors which are yellow plastic.
773 should be good for up to 2.5 mm and 24A so presumably are
suitable?
Can someone please confirm?

As the 773-102 is only rated to 24A, but the ring will likely have a
32A MCB, really you should use a 222-412 wago connector instead.

The "as installed" required rating for a cable on a 32A ring is only
21A, so in general 24A should be ok, unless you are aware of specific
reasons why it should not be (say the joint was at one end of an
asymmetric ring)


What is an asymmetric ring?

One with most of the sockets distributed near one end of it... Say where
someone has installed a long run of sockets starting close to the CU,
and then just returned the last leg from the far end, rather than
distributing the load on the way out and the way back IYSWIM.

Only the installer will know where the cables go so any ring could
have an asymmetric load put on it by a householder. It just depends on
what he plugs in.

Well we are talking about someone modifying the wiring, not just normal
use. So hopefully the installer will have some clue. If they were
unsure, then upping the terminal capacity to the higher load version
would be a sensible mitigation.





It doesn't really work though.
You have to assume they will not plug high power loads into sockets that
may be at one end but there is nothing to tell them that they are at one
end.
Its easy to abuse a ring and not even know.

My ring is fused at 20A so can't be abused.
It doesn't have to be a ring then so if it goes faulty it won't matter.
Rings do go faulty and its just about impossible for 99.99% of users to
know it has.

You really have to disconnect it at the CU and meter it to find a fault
although you may be able to find it with a clamp meter if you have
enough free cable at the sockets.

Neither option is going to be any use to most people.

Maybe its time the standards for CUs to included test points that
disconnect to ring and allowed you to test it without exposing any mains.

They do this on telephone lines in exchanges, not that you need to with
the automatic test network we supplied.

.

Ring circuits were a clever & good idea. Too bad so many people just don't understand them.


NT

Extending a 13A ring main under a floor - suitable connectors?
 

On 08/06/2019 09:20, wrote:
On Friday, 7 June 2019 15:32:38 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
On 07/06/2019 13:01, John Rumm wrote:
On 06/06/2019 20:47, dennis@home wrote:
On 06/06/2019 18:46, John Rumm wrote:
On 06/06/2019 12:48, Andy Burns wrote:
David wrote:

The box has 3 * 2 wire 773 connectors which are yellow plastic.
773 should be good for up to 2.5 mm and 24A so presumably are
suitable?
Can someone please confirm?

As the 773-102 is only rated to 24A, but the ring will likely have a
32A MCB, really you should use a 222-412 wago connector instead.

The "as installed" required rating for a cable on a 32A ring is only
21A, so in general 24A should be ok, unless you are aware of specific
reasons why it should not be (say the joint was at one end of an
asymmetric ring)


What is an asymmetric ring?

One with most of the sockets distributed near one end of it... Say where
someone has installed a long run of sockets starting close to the CU,
and then just returned the last leg from the far end, rather than
distributing the load on the way out and the way back IYSWIM.

Only the installer will know where the cables go so any ring could
have an asymmetric load put on it by a householder. It just depends on
what he plugs in.

Well we are talking about someone modifying the wiring, not just normal
use. So hopefully the installer will have some clue. If they were
unsure, then upping the terminal capacity to the higher load version
would be a sensible mitigation.





It doesn't really work though.
You have to assume they will not plug high power loads into sockets that
may be at one end but there is nothing to tell them that they are at one
end.
Its easy to abuse a ring and not even know.

My ring is fused at 20A so can't be abused.
It doesn't have to be a ring then so if it goes faulty it won't matter.
Rings do go faulty and its just about impossible for 99.99% of users to
know it has.

You really have to disconnect it at the CU and meter it to find a fault
although you may be able to find it with a clamp meter if you have
enough free cable at the sockets.

Neither option is going to be any use to most people.

Maybe its time the standards for CUs to included test points that
disconnect to ring and allowed you to test it without exposing any mains.

They do this on telephone lines in exchanges, not that you need to with
the automatic test network we supplied.

.

Ring circuits were a clever & good idea. Too bad so many people just don't understand them.


NT


Oh they are easy to understand, but their main reason for existing is no
longer valid.
We don't need to save copper any more so we may as well do the job
correctly and never have breakers rated above the load a cable can take.

All the arguments about them being more reliable and still working if a
fault develops are the problems not solutions.

Anyway we have had this discussion before.

Extending a 13A ring main under a floor - suitable connectors?
 

On Saturday, 8 June 2019 12:41:03 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
On 08/06/2019 09:20, tabbypurr wrote:

Ring circuits were a clever & good idea. Too bad so many people just don't understand them.

Oh they are easy to understand, but their main reason for existing is no
longer valid.

ie you don't understand them

We don't need to save copper any more so we may as well do the job
correctly and never have breakers rated above the load a cable can take.

ie you don't understand them

All the arguments about them being more reliable and still working if a
fault develops are the problems not solutions.

ie you don't understand them

Anyway we have had this discussion before.

Well we won't have it again.


NT

Extending a 13A ring main under a floor - suitable connectors?
 

On 08/06/2019 13:44, wrote:
On Saturday, 8 June 2019 12:41:03 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
On 08/06/2019 09:20, tabbypurr wrote:

Ring circuits were a clever & good idea. Too bad so many people just don't understand them.

Oh they are easy to understand, but their main reason for existing is no
longer valid.

ie you don't understand them

We don't need to save copper any more so we may as well do the job
correctly and never have breakers rated above the load a cable can take.

ie you don't understand them

All the arguments about them being more reliable and still working if a
fault develops are the problems not solutions.

ie you don't understand them

Anyway we have had this discussion before.

Well we won't have it again.


NT


Just as well as you don't understand them.

Extending a 13A ring main under a floor - suitable connectors?
 

On Thursday, 6 June 2019 15:42:41 UTC+1, David WE Roberts (Google) wrote:
On Thu, 06 Jun 2019 14:03:55 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

wrote:

2.5 T&E is not rated to 32A, nor does it need to be on a 32A MCBed
ring.

But it is rated at up to 27A, so using a connector rated at only 24A
makes it the weak link, after all we don't know how far round the ring
this junction box is ...

Box of 222-412 ordered from Amazon.

Note that 222-412 connectors are derated from 32A down to 20A when used in a maintenance-free enclosure (see http://enews.wago.com/art_resource.p..._download=1 ). Their 773-173 connectors are derated from 41A to 32A.