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Old May 20th 19, 08:54 AM posted to uk.d-i-y
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On Saturday, 18 May 2019 13:18:59 UTC+1, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 18/05/19 10:33, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

Our new Vailant can inteligently decide just how much heat it needs to
produce to meet its desired room temperatures, taking into
consideration the outdoor temperature and indoor. It doesn't overshoot,
rather it learns what is needed and can modulate right down to match
the demand. The pipes don't creak and moan anymore.


Well, I really am willing to be educated, but I really don't understand
what it is supposed to be doing to "intelligently" decide something.
Firstly, I assume that as with almost any device, it will have a "sweet
spot" where it is working at its highest efficiency. Its specs may state
"85%" efficient, but in practice that might mean from a low of 82% to a
high of 88%. Now it should be operating as near to 88% all the time as
it can, but obviously there are constraints - it won't be so efficient
starting from cold, for example.


Max efficiency is at minimum power output. So there's always a conflict between providing enough power quickly enough & maximising efficiency.


As far as I am concerned, when the room thermostat calls for heat, the
boiler should go flat out to heat the room as quickly as possible. In


that would use more gas due to reduced effieincy & cause overshoot, which of course uses more gas.

any case, it's the room thermostat which tells the boiler what to do,
and it's the thermostat's hysteresis which is the arbiter of how
comfortable or uncomfortable you will be. I've switched ours to the
lowest hysteresis possible, which is +/- 0.5 deg C. That may mean the
boiler in on/off more frequently, but I'm a lot more comfortable with
the room at a steady 20.5 - 21.5 deg C, than I would be at 19 - 23 deg C.

And does it really matter most of the time what the outside temperature
is?


When it's mild out the primary temp can be kept lower and burner power reduced to improve efficiency.

It will almost always be much lower than the room temperature, and
so maximum heat will be required to warm the room up.

The previous boiler either ran and produced full heat, or none, though
it did modulate, it only modulated based on its internal temperature.


Having said all the above, I see from the manual of my W-B Greenstar that :
"The gas supply to the burner is controlled according to the level of
demand for heat. The boiler operates with a low flame if the demand for
heat reduces. The technical term for this process is modulating control.
Modulating control reduces temperature fluctuations and provides an even
distribution of heat throughout the home. This means that the boiler may
stay on for relatively long periods of time but will use less gas than a
boiler that continually switches on and off."

Out of interest, does your boiler's spec state that it is most efficient
when it is ticking over (or whatever it is doing to decide what heat it
needs to supply)?

So exactly how does the boiler do what it's supposed to do? You set the
boiler hot water temperature to the rads at, for example, 60 deg C, and
you set the room temperature thermostat to 20 deg C, and the hysteresis
to 1 deg C. How exactly does it (in the case of my W-B Greenstar)
"operate with a low flame if the demand for heat reduces"?


the same way it always operates, except at reduced burner output & reduced fan speed

How often
does the "demand for heat" reduce?


Most heating season days don't need full power output.


NT

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Old May 20th 19, 10:19 AM posted to uk.d-i-y
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On Mon, 20 May 2019 14:59:32 +1000, billj, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

"Jeff Layman" wrote in message
...
On 18/05/19 10:33, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

Our new Vailant can inteligently decide just how much heat it needs to
produce to meet its desired room temperatures, taking into
consideration the outdoor temperature and indoor. It doesn't overshoot,
rather it learns what is needed and can modulate right down to match
the demand. The pipes don't creak and moan anymore.


Well, I really am willing to be educated, but I really don't understand
what it is supposed to be doing to "intelligently" decide something.
Firstly, I assume that as with almost any device, it will have a "sweet
spot" where it is working at its highest efficiency.


Not necessarily


In auto-contradicting mode again, retard? LOL

FLUSH the rest of your usual senile bull****

--
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"Auto-contradictor Rod is back! (in the KF)"
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Old May 20th 19, 09:49 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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"Jeff Layman" wrote in message
...
On 18/05/19 21:29, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Jeff Layman brought next idea :
Out of interest, does your boiler's spec state that it is most efficient
when
it is ticking over (or whatever it is doing to decide what heat it needs
to
supply)?

So exactly how does the boiler do what it's supposed to do? You set the
boiler hot water temperature to the rads at, for example, 60 deg C, and
you
set the room temperature thermostat to 20 deg C, and the hysteresis to 1
deg
C. How exactly does it (in the case of my W-B Greenstar) "operate with a
low
flame if the demand for heat reduces"? How often does the "demand for
heat"
reduce?


I had the boiler installed 14 months ago and I only recently added the
fancy controls. Until then it just had simple time clock and switching
stats controlling it. Then the boiler in operation was very noticeable
from both the noise from the boiler in operation and the ticking of
heating and cooling pipework.

Now the entire system is much quieter, because it knows it doesn't have
to run flat out, it knows how much heat input is needed so it can
modulate to run at a much lower level of burn. Before, it only
modulated down, based on its return temperature and often shut down
completely only to then light up again a few minutes later, because the
demand was still not satisfied. Rather like someone driving flat out,
then banging the brakes on, then flat out again - very wasteful of
fuel.


That's fair enough. I waded through this and it supports your findings:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/648337/heating-controls-compensation-tpi-bre.pdf

I guess a 3% or so saving is worth having, particularly if repeated over
millions of gas boilers.


But then they'll all be disappearing in a few
years to be replaced by renewables...


Don’t believe that with house heating. They might
be replaced by electrical heating from nukes tho.

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Old May 20th 19, 10:14 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default More Heavy Trolling by Senile Nym-Shifting Rodent Speed

On Tue, 21 May 2019 06:49:14 +1000, billj, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

Don˘t believe


NOBODY gives a **** what you believe or don't believe, senile psychopath.

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about senile Rot Speed:
"This is like having a conversation with someone with brain damage."
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Old May 20th 19, 11:15 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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On 19/05/2019 15:12, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Andrew wrote:
On 18/05/2019 11:22, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
A non balanced flue boiler is going to be about as inefficient as they
come.


Not necessarily.


Yes, necessarily.

My house, like millions of others, had a BAxi Bermuda back
boiler (about 15Kw) with a 3/6 Kw radiant fire.


A cheap job, then.

Fuel was cheap in the 1970's. New houses were built to the
standards that were deemed acceptable at the time.

The flue was Class 2 flue blocks built into the inner leaf
of the cavity wall, which passed through the upstairs front
bedroom and kept that North-facing room quite comfortable on
its own.


Just what you want on a nice day when the boiler is only heating the
water...


In the summer, you don't need much hot water, so that's what the
immersion heater is for, also when leccy was much cheaper.


Even the radiator was only half the size of the other,
in a south facing bedroom.


If the original numpty builders hadn't chucked the cement
snots inside the flue blocks and mortared the joints correctly
I might still have it today, but eventually the metal work
that directs the gas fire flue into the main flue corrodes
and then the fire is condemned even if the boiler works fine.


Think you mean as well as it ever worked.

But I'd guess you are one of those who don't mind throwing their pound
notes up the chimney.

They didn't go up the chimney, the heat warmed up the bedroom.

Nowhere near as inefficient as believed, and very, very
reliable and long-lasting (unlike todays junk).



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Old May 21st 19, 11:04 AM posted to uk.d-i-y
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In article ,
Andrew wrote:
Just what you want on a nice day when the boiler is only heating the
water...


In the summer, you don't need much hot water, so that's what the
immersion heater is for, also when leccy was much cheaper.


Interesting to know why you think you need less hot water in the summer.

If leccy is cheaper to heat water, why do it by gas ever?
And why not heat the house with leccy too?

--
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