Flourescent unit starter-less?
 

The 6 foot tube in our 30+ year kitchen fluorescent light has started to
blink. The tube is about 10 years old, so due for replacement, although it
wasn't showing the tell-tale darkened ends.

I replaced it with a Crompton 70w tube but this started to blink. "In my
opinion it's the starter that needs replacement" said the salesman. Problem
is, this unit doesn't have one, is this possible?

I removed the tube and the 6' white concave reflector from above the tube
but no sign of a starter. Instead, there's a 9" x 1" x 1" (from memory)
white plastic box, which carries the mains wiring.

Any thoughts on where the starter can be located or are some fluorescent
units ...... starter-less? TIA

Flourescent unit starter-less?
 

Bertie Doe wrote:

Any thoughts on where the starter can be located or are some fluorescent
units ...... starter-less?

sounds like a high-frequency electronic ballast, instead of the lump of
iron type ...

Flourescent unit starter-less?
 

On 15/04/19 17:35, Bertie Doe wrote:
The 6 foot tube in our 30+ year kitchen fluorescent light has started to
blink. The tube is about 10 years old, so due for replacement, although it
wasn't showing the tell-tale darkened ends.

I replaced it with a Crompton 70w tube but this started to blink. "In my
opinion it's the starter that needs replacement" said the salesman. Problem
is, this unit doesn't have one, is this possible?

I removed the tube and the 6' white concave reflector from above the tube
but no sign of a starter. Instead, there's a 9" x 1" x 1" (from memory)
white plastic box, which carries the mains wiring.

Any thoughts on where the starter can be located or are some fluorescent
units ...... starter-less? TIA

Could it be a semi-resonant start fitting?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescent_lamp#Semi-resonant_start

According to the wiki, high-frequency fittings didn't come in until the 90s.

--

Jeff

Flourescent unit starter-less?
 

On 15/04/2019 18:10, Jeff Layman wrote:
Could it be a semi-resonant start fitting?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescent_lamp#Semi-resonant_start

According to the wiki, high-frequency fittings didn't come in until the
90s.

only unleavened ore steam baked flourescents are starterless.

Yeast and sourdough need a starter.


--
€œIt is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of
making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people
who pay no price for being wrong.€�

Thomas Sowell

Flourescent unit starter-less?
 

On Monday, 15 April 2019 17:35:26 UTC+1, Bertie Doe wrote:

The 6 foot tube in our 30+ year kitchen fluorescent light has started to
blink. The tube is about 10 years old, so due for replacement, although it
wasn't showing the tell-tale darkened ends.

I replaced it with a Crompton 70w tube but this started to blink. "In my
opinion it's the starter that needs replacement" said the salesman. Problem
is, this unit doesn't have one, is this possible?

I removed the tube and the 6' white concave reflector from above the tube
but no sign of a starter. Instead, there's a 9" x 1" x 1" (from memory)
white plastic box, which carries the mains wiring.

Any thoughts on where the starter can be located or are some fluorescent
units ...... starter-less? TIA

There are 3 possible layouts:
1. externally accessible starter
2. built-in starter, not visible from outside
3. Electronic ballast with no starter.

30+ years old suggests 2 as the most likely. So I'd open that box & see if it has a starter wired directly in, or whether the ballast is electronic. After disconnecting power of course.

Bad connectors to the end of the tube can also cause flicker, though not commonly.


NT

Flourescent unit starter-less?
 

On 15/04/2019 17:35, Bertie Doe wrote:
The 6 foot tube in our 30+ year kitchen fluorescentÂ* light has started
to blink. The tube is about 10 years old, so due for replacement,
although it wasn't showing the tell-tale darkened ends.

I replaced it with a Crompton 70w tube but this started to blink. "In my
opinion it's the starter that needs replacement" said the salesman.
Problem is, this unit doesn't have one, is this possible?

I removed the tube and the 6' white concave reflector from above the
tube but no sign of a starter. Instead, there's a 9" x 1" x 1" (from
memory) white plastic box, which carries the mains wiring.

Any thoughts on where the starter can be located or are some fluorescent
units ...... starter-less? TIA

An old fitting designed for a T10 that cannot start a new T8 as the
mercury content is lower?

Was the lamp a like for like swap?

--
Adam

Flourescent unit starter-less?
 

On 15/04/2019 17:35, Bertie Doe wrote:
The 6 foot tube in our 30+ year kitchen fluorescentÂ* light has started
to blink. The tube is about 10 years old, so due for replacement,
although it wasn't showing the tell-tale darkened ends.

I replaced it with a Crompton 70w tube but this started to blink. "In my
opinion it's the starter that needs replacement" said the salesman.
Problem is, this unit doesn't have one, is this possible?

I removed the tube and the 6' white concave reflector from above the
tube but no sign of a starter. Instead, there's a 9" x 1" x 1" (from
memory) white plastic box, which carries the mains wiring.

Any thoughts on where the starter can be located or are some fluorescent
units ...... starter-less? TIA

How many wires go to the plastic box? If it is a coil which would need
a starter there may just be two. My electronic ballasts have atleast 6
wires, two for each end of the tube and two for the mains input. The
electronic starters I bought a few years ago have worked well.


--
Michael Chare

Flourescent unit starter-less?
 

Flourescent unit starter-less?
 

On Monday, 15 April 2019 17:35:26 UTC+1, Bertie Doe wrote:
The 6 foot tube in our 30+ year kitchen fluorescent light has started to
blink. The tube is about 10 years old, so due for replacement, although it
wasn't showing the tell-tale darkened ends.

I replaced it with a Crompton 70w tube but this started to blink. "In my
opinion it's the starter that needs replacement" said the salesman. Problem
is, this unit doesn't have one, is this possible?

I removed the tube and the 6' white concave reflector from above the tube
but no sign of a starter. Instead, there's a 9" x 1" x 1" (from memory)
white plastic box, which carries the mains wiring.

Any thoughts on where the starter can be located or are some fluorescent
units ...... starter-less? TIA

Time to dump it and go for LED.
Or buy an LED tube for your fitting (most need no starter).

Flourescent unit starter-less?
 

On Tuesday, 16 April 2019 04:33:52 UTC+1, FMurtz wrote:
tabbypurr wrote:
On Monday, 15 April 2019 17:35:26 UTC+1, Bertie Doe wrote:

The 6 foot tube in our 30+ year kitchen fluorescent light has started to
blink. The tube is about 10 years old, so due for replacement, although it
wasn't showing the tell-tale darkened ends.

I replaced it with a Crompton 70w tube but this started to blink. "In my
opinion it's the starter that needs replacement" said the salesman. Problem
is, this unit doesn't have one, is this possible?

I removed the tube and the 6' white concave reflector from above the tube
but no sign of a starter. Instead, there's a 9" x 1" x 1" (from memory)
white plastic box, which carries the mains wiring.

Any thoughts on where the starter can be located or are some fluorescent
units ...... starter-less? TIA

There are 3 possible layouts:
1. externally accessible starter
2. built-in starter, not visible from outside
3. Electronic ballast with no starter.

30+ years old suggests 2 as the most likely. So I'd open that box & see if it has a starter wired directly in, or whether the ballast is electronic. After disconnecting power of course.

Bad connectors to the end of the tube can also cause flicker, though not commonly.


NT

There are rapid start fluoros that do not use starters,some of the tubes
for these have metallic paint strip along the full length some have
earthed metal reflectors in close proximity to the tube

IIRC lack of grounding or a missing strip caused trouble starting, but no trouble once started.


NT

Flourescent unit starter-less?
 

Its an electronic quickstart probably, and the whole unit will need to be
changed. They seem to sort of lose their high strike voltage after a time,
never unpotted on but they tend to start when working rather as if it was
on a dimmer, but when they stop working they just flicker but a bit faster
than the starter kind and without the little 'ting' noises.
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Bertie Doe" wrote in message
...
The 6 foot tube in our 30+ year kitchen fluorescent light has started to
blink. The tube is about 10 years old, so due for replacement, although it
wasn't showing the tell-tale darkened ends.

I replaced it with a Crompton 70w tube but this started to blink. "In my
opinion it's the starter that needs replacement" said the salesman.
Problem is, this unit doesn't have one, is this possible?

I removed the tube and the 6' white concave reflector from above the tube
but no sign of a starter. Instead, there's a 9" x 1" x 1" (from memory)
white plastic box, which carries the mains wiring.

Any thoughts on where the starter can be located or are some fluorescent
units ...... starter-less? TIA

Flourescent unit starter-less?
 

Well the ones in our old Studio wre 1980s and one went and needed just an
electronic ballast fitting. Of course never managed to get a direct
replacement but nothing a few self tapping screws could not sort out.
N I know for a fact that you could get 12v small lights with electronic
ballasts so I guess these were just more powerful ones, but of course on the
mains you only need to generate the breakdown voltage but if the transformer
inside has some shorted turns or the controlling device is leaky then the
result is flickering.
Have you thought of going down the led route?
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Jeff Layman" wrote in message
...
On 15/04/19 17:35, Bertie Doe wrote:
The 6 foot tube in our 30+ year kitchen fluorescent light has started to
blink. The tube is about 10 years old, so due for replacement, although
it
wasn't showing the tell-tale darkened ends.

I replaced it with a Crompton 70w tube but this started to blink. "In my
opinion it's the starter that needs replacement" said the salesman.
Problem
is, this unit doesn't have one, is this possible?

I removed the tube and the 6' white concave reflector from above the tube
but no sign of a starter. Instead, there's a 9" x 1" x 1" (from memory)
white plastic box, which carries the mains wiring.

Any thoughts on where the starter can be located or are some fluorescent
units ...... starter-less? TIA

Could it be a semi-resonant start fitting?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescent_lamp#Semi-resonant_start

According to the wiki, high-frequency fittings didn't come in until the
90s.

--

Jeff

Flourescent unit starter-less?
 

In article ,
wrote:
There are 3 possible layouts:
1. externally accessible starter
2. built-in starter, not visible from outside
3. Electronic ballast with no starter.

ISTR so called quick start ballasts. Not electronic, but no starter as
such.

--
*DOES THE LITTLE MERMAID WEAR AN ALGEBRA?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Fluorescent unit starter-less?
 

"harry" wrote in message
...

On Monday, 15 April 2019 17:35:26 UTC+1, Bertie Doe wrote:
The 6 foot tube in our 30+ year kitchen fluorescent light has started to
blink. The tube is about 10 years old, so due for replacement, although
it
wasn't showing the tell-tale darkened ends.

I replaced it with a Crompton 70w tube but this started to blink. "In my
opinion it's the starter that needs replacement" said the salesman.
Problem
is, this unit doesn't have one, is this possible?

I removed the tube and the 6' white concave reflector from above the tube
but no sign of a starter. Instead, there's a 9" x 1" x 1" (from memory)
white plastic box, which carries the mains wiring.

Any thoughts on where the starter can be located or are some fluorescent
units ...... starter-less? TIA

Time to dump it and go for LED.
Or buy an LED tube for your fitting (most need no starter).

Phoned a large lighting retailer (Beacon Plymouth) and was told :- "tube
blinking, the problem is with a) the tube, b) the starter or c) the choke".
When I described the wired 9 x 1 x1" unit, he confirmed it was the choke and
they have a lifetime of approx 4 replacement tubes or 15 years. So I can't
complain after 30 years use. When I replace the whole unit, I'll put up a
picture of the choke, in case someone Googles.

The LED equivalent of a 70w fluoro is 26w. Beacon sells a 6' unit for £39
but the tubes are not replaceable, it's a sealed unit, throw-away job.

Agreed, LCD is the way forwards but as the choke is a bit dodgy, I won't
spend £24 on a separate LCD. The Deltech is also a sealed unit but at 35000
hours, should see me out :-

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DELTECH-L...r=471343462360

The following is available in single or double and the tubes seem to be
replaceable :-

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/T8-LED-No...r=531293720453

Advert on same page has the tubes selling at £12. Thanks to all those who
contributed, I'm now a lot wiser on fluoro's.

Fluorescent unit starter-less?
 

On Tuesday, 16 April 2019 11:22:25 UTC+1, Bertie Doe wrote:
"harry" wrote in message
...
On Monday, 15 April 2019 17:35:26 UTC+1, Bertie Doe wrote:

The 6 foot tube in our 30+ year kitchen fluorescent light has started to
blink. The tube is about 10 years old, so due for replacement, although
it
wasn't showing the tell-tale darkened ends.

I replaced it with a Crompton 70w tube but this started to blink. "In my
opinion it's the starter that needs replacement" said the salesman.
Problem
is, this unit doesn't have one, is this possible?

I removed the tube and the 6' white concave reflector from above the tube
but no sign of a starter. Instead, there's a 9" x 1" x 1" (from memory)
white plastic box, which carries the mains wiring.

Any thoughts on where the starter can be located or are some fluorescent
units ...... starter-less? TIA

Time to dump it and go for LED.
Or buy an LED tube for your fitting (most need no starter).

Phoned a large lighting retailer (Beacon Plymouth) and was told :- "tube
blinking, the problem is with a) the tube, b) the starter or c) the choke".

Heh, it could be anything including bad connections but choke failure is very low on likelihood.

When I described the wired 9 x 1 x1" unit, he confirmed it was the choke and
they have a lifetime of approx 4 replacement tubes or 15 years. So I can't

Not IME

complain after 30 years use. When I replace the whole unit, I'll put up a
picture of the choke, in case someone Googles.

The LED equivalent of a 70w fluoro is 26w. Beacon sells a 6' unit for £39
but the tubes are not replaceable, it's a sealed unit, throw-away job.

Aldi were doing 5' tubes much cheaper recently. They don't last forever. You can always improve LED life by dimming.

Agreed, LCD is the way forwards but as the choke is a bit dodgy, I won't
spend £24 on a separate LCD.

You should bypass the choke/ballast when fitting an LED tube anyway.

The Deltech is also a sealed unit but at 35000
hours, should see me out :-

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DELTECH-L...r=471343462360

bit steep

The following is available in single or double and the tubes seem to be
replaceable :-

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/T8-LED-No...r=531293720453

so is that

Advert on same page has the tubes selling at £12. Thanks to all those who
contributed, I'm now a lot wiser on fluoro's.

Flourescent unit starter-less?
 

On 16/04/2019 11:01, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
There are 3 possible layouts:
1. externally accessible starter
2. built-in starter, not visible from outside
3. Electronic ballast with no starter.

ISTR so called quick start ballasts. Not electronic, but no starter as
such.


A couple of weeks ago I was in uk.d-i-y posters loft (wave to Terry
Casey) and found a fluorescent light with a starter but no choke. I
think I took a photo. I would say that it was 30 years old.



--
Adam

Flourescent unit starter-less?
 

In article ,
ARW wrote:
On 16/04/2019 11:01, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
There are 3 possible layouts:
1. externally accessible starter
2. built-in starter, not visible from outside
3. Electronic ballast with no starter.

ISTR so called quick start ballasts. Not electronic, but no starter as
such.


A couple of weeks ago I was in uk.d-i-y posters loft (wave to Terry
Casey) and found a fluorescent light with a starter but no choke. I
think I took a photo. I would say that it was 30 years old.

That's a novelty. ;-) Bet the leccy board didn't like it.

--
*I love cats...they taste just like chicken.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Flourescent unit starter-less?
 

On 17/04/2019 19:23, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
ARW wrote:
On 16/04/2019 11:01, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
There are 3 possible layouts:
1. externally accessible starter
2. built-in starter, not visible from outside
3. Electronic ballast with no starter.

ISTR so called quick start ballasts. Not electronic, but no starter as
such.


A couple of weeks ago I was in uk.d-i-y posters loft (wave to Terry
Casey) and found a fluorescent light with a starter but no choke. I
think I took a photo. I would say that it was 30 years old.

That's a novelty. ;-) Bet the leccy board didn't like it.


Well it's still there and it still works.

The leccy board have no say on it.



--
Adam

Flourescent unit starter-less?
 

On Wednesday, 17 April 2019 19:54:41 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 17/04/2019 19:23, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
ARW wrote:
On 16/04/2019 11:01, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:

There are 3 possible layouts:
1. externally accessible starter
2. built-in starter, not visible from outside
3. Electronic ballast with no starter.

ISTR so called quick start ballasts. Not electronic, but no starter as
such.

yes

A couple of weeks ago I was in uk.d-i-y posters loft (wave to Terry
Casey) and found a fluorescent light with a starter but no choke. I
think I took a photo. I would say that it was 30 years old.

That's a novelty. ;-) Bet the leccy board didn't like it.


Well it's still there and it still works.

The leccy board have no say on it.

The only type of setup I can think of that uses a starter but no choke is the old resistor ballast lights.


NT

Flourescent unit starter-less?
 

On Tue, 16 Apr 2019 11:01:09 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
There are 3 possible layouts:
1. externally accessible starter 2. built-in starter, not visible from
outside 3. Electronic ballast with no starter.

ISTR so called quick start ballasts. Not electronic, but no starter as
such.

Actually "Quickstart"(tm). The technology is now over half a century old
(predates 1972 at any rate). Essentially it's an autotransformer with
tube heater taps at each end which is connected across the tube with a
conventional magnetic ballast in series with the mains supply.

The ballast and transformer can be a combined high leakage transformer
arrangement that does effectively the same function but I've only ever
seen and used the separate ballast and transformer setup. There's no
separate starter switch and the tube lights up in some 250 to 300ms after
switch on with no flicker (about as fast as a 12v 35W halogen on a 60W
rated electronic ballast "transformer").

The theory of operation is that the "Quickstart" transformer runs at
close to full mains voltage delivering heater voltage (10 volts or so)
which causes the thoriated filaments to reach full heat and emit a
copious supply of electrons, allowing the tube to strike without the
stress of positive ion cathode stripping bombardment to boost the
filament to temperature. Once struck, the tube current drops the voltage
down to just over 100vac, reducing the heater current voltage which
continues to help run the filaments at a more optimal temperature than
simply relying on tube current alone.

Tubes last far longer in luminaries fitted with the classic "Quickstart"
circuit, especially when subjected to frequent switching cycles,
typically lasting their full design life of 7 to 15 thousand hours to the
80% of design lumens cut off point in spite of frequent switching.

Unfortunately, the new mercury starved T8 tubes can't be started by this
classic circuit so once your T12 tubes supply has been used up, you're
looking to upgrading to an electronic ballast or else taking the
pragmatic option of a retro-fit LED tube where you'd be well advised to
remove the QS transformer at the very least if not the transformer and
ballast itself.

--
Johnny B Good

Flourescent unit starter-less?
 

On 17/04/2019 21:31, wrote:
On Wednesday, 17 April 2019 19:54:41 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 17/04/2019 19:23, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
ARW wrote:
On 16/04/2019 11:01, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:

There are 3 possible layouts:
1. externally accessible starter
2. built-in starter, not visible from outside
3. Electronic ballast with no starter.

ISTR so called quick start ballasts. Not electronic, but no starter as
such.

yes

A couple of weeks ago I was in uk.d-i-y posters loft (wave to Terry
Casey) and found a fluorescent light with a starter but no choke. I
think I took a photo. I would say that it was 30 years old.

That's a novelty. ;-) Bet the leccy board didn't like it.


Well it's still there and it still works.

The leccy board have no say on it.

The only type of setup I can think of that uses a starter but no choke is the old resistor ballast lights.

I am sure that it is resistor wire between the two ends.


--
Adam

Flourescent unit starter-less?
 

On 15/04/2019 18:10, Jeff Layman wrote:
Could it be a semi-resonant start fitting?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescent_lamp#Semi-resonant_start

Ha - I wrote that section many years ago.
Of course, someone has changed it to be incorrect since then, as is
usually the case with Wikipedia. 5' is the shortest length you can drive
SRS on 240V, not the 3'11" the article now states.

Was the original tube a T12 (1.5" diameter)? As the article says, SRS is
usually unable to drive the T8 (1" diameter) tubes, although the failure
mode is unlikely to be blinking.

--
Andrew