Kitchen fitter is coming to start work at 0800 tomorrow. Complete
refurb. I am a little concerned about the electrical work he is going
to do, and a couple of mantras he has chanted.

The first one is "Kitchens are like bathrooms under Part P". That's
not been the case for about five years has it?

The other one is "Kitchen ring circuits must be exclusive to the
kitchen". Has that *ever* been the case?

I grant you if you were rewiring the house, you would almost certainly
design it that way, but is there really a hard & fast rule about it?

The issue is three sockets in the adjoining conservatory which are
part of the existing kitchen ring.

Actually he does not know that yet (but will find out tomorrow), he
has indicated to me that he intends to put in a new circuit for the
kitchen sockets regardless.

Making alternative provision for the conservatory sockets will be
challenging, due to concrete floors in the conservatory and the back
half of the kitchen.

Finally, I have run into the same issue with this electrician as last
time, which was partly the reason I didn't go ahead with the project
last time, basically, he wants to put as separate radial circuit for
the new hob or cooker as he does not want to use the existing 6mm 32A
circuit for both.

I discussed my justification for this at the time in this thread.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/uk.d...o/IaT72ThJBAAJ


I just want the installation to be fully complient with the regs, no
more!

--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%

On 17/03/2019 16:00, Graham. wrote:

Kitchen fitter is coming to start work at 0800 tomorrow. Complete
refurb. I am a little concerned about the electrical work he is going
to do, and a couple of mantras he has chanted.

The first one is "Kitchens are like bathrooms under Part P". That's
not been the case for about five years has it?

The other one is "Kitchen ring circuits must be exclusive to the
kitchen". Has that *ever* been the case?

I grant you if you were rewiring the house, you would almost certainly
design it that way, but is there really a hard & fast rule about it?

The issue is three sockets in the adjoining conservatory which are
part of the existing kitchen ring.

Actually he does not know that yet (but will find out tomorrow), he
has indicated to me that he intends to put in a new circuit for the
kitchen sockets regardless.

Making alternative provision for the conservatory sockets will be
challenging, due to concrete floors in the conservatory and the back
half of the kitchen.

Finally, I have run into the same issue with this electrician as last
time, which was partly the reason I didn't go ahead with the project
last time, basically, he wants to put as separate radial circuit for
the new hob or cooker as he does not want to use the existing 6mm 32A
circuit for both.

I discussed my justification for this at the time in this thread.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/uk.d...o/IaT72ThJBAAJ


I just want the installation to be fully complient with the regs, no
more!


Why are you using him?

--
Adam

On Sunday, 17 March 2019 16:00:39 UTC, Graham. wrote:
The other one is "Kitchen ring circuits must be exclusive to the
kitchen". Has that *ever* been the case?

Not AFAIK, and there would be good reason for a kitchen sharing a ring or rings with other rooms with low power demand. A lot of houses are split front/back with means the kitchen shares the socket circuit with the back bedroom.

I grant you if you were rewiring the house, you would almost certainly
design it that way, but is there really a hard & fast rule about it?

No, and really rather inconvenient if *all* the sockets in the kitchen went off. I'd much rather split a kitchen over two circuits if possible.

Finally, I have run into the same issue with this electrician as last
time, which was partly the reason I didn't go ahead with the project
last time, basically, he wants to put as separate radial circuit for
the new hob or cooker as he does not want to use the existing 6mm 32A
circuit for both.

Ask to see his demand and cable sizing calculations as part of the design certificate.

Owain

On 17/03/2019 16:00, Graham. wrote:

Kitchen fitter is coming to start work at 0800 tomorrow. Complete
refurb. I am a little concerned about the electrical work he is going
to do, and a couple of mantras he has chanted.

The first one is "Kitchens are like bathrooms under Part P". That's
not been the case for about five years has it?

The latest part P doc is from 2003:

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ved-document-p

and that was the first to remove kitchens from the "special locations"
category.

The other one is "Kitchen ring circuits must be exclusive to the
kitchen". Has that *ever* been the case?

Its never been a wiring regs requirement, however it is a sensible rule
of thumb with a modern kitchen.

I grant you if you were rewiring the house, you would almost certainly
design it that way, but is there really a hard & fast rule about it?

Not that I am aware of.

The issue is three sockets in the adjoining conservatory which are
part of the existing kitchen ring.

Actually he does not know that yet (but will find out tomorrow), he
has indicated to me that he intends to put in a new circuit for the
kitchen sockets regardless.

Making alternative provision for the conservatory sockets will be
challenging, due to concrete floors in the conservatory and the back
half of the kitchen.

Well if he really is putting in a new circuit, then the existing kitchen
one can be demoted to just running the conservatory.

Finally, I have run into the same issue with this electrician as last
time, which was partly the reason I didn't go ahead with the project
last time, basically, he wants to put as separate radial circuit for
the new hob or cooker as he does not want to use the existing 6mm 32A
circuit for both.

I discussed my justification for this at the time in this thread.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/uk.d...o/IaT72ThJBAAJ


I just want the installation to be fully complient with the regs, no
more!

Well, in a sense there is nothing wrong in a regulatory sense with
adding a radial circuit, and in the grand scheme of things probably
represents only a small part of the total cost of the project. However,
you probably don't need it (certainly in a domestic setting anyway).



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 17/03/2019 16:00, Graham. wrote:

Kitchen fitter is coming to start work at 0800 tomorrow. Complete
refurb. I am a little concerned about the electrical work he is going
to do, and a couple of mantras he has chanted.

The first one is "Kitchens are like bathrooms under Part P". That's
not been the case for about five years has it?

Correct.


The other one is "Kitchen ring circuits must be exclusive to the
kitchen". Has that *ever* been the case?

Utter ********.

I have 2 rings in my (largish) kitchen/diner to even the load
distribution. One doubles to the lobby and the other feeds a bedroom
behind. Drawn on a floor plan they make geographic sense.


I grant you if you were rewiring the house, you would almost certainly
design it that way, but is there really a hard & fast rule about it?

No you wouldn't. You'd take into account a number of factors and do what
made sense overall

The issue is three sockets in the adjoining conservatory which are
part of the existing kitchen ring.

Not at all a problem.

Actually he does not know that yet (but will find out tomorrow), he
has indicated to me that he intends to put in a new circuit for the
kitchen sockets regardless.

Given he's so clueless, I wouldn't let him touch anything.

Making alternative provision for the conservatory sockets will be
challenging, due to concrete floors in the conservatory and the back
half of the kitchen.

Finally, I have run into the same issue with this electrician as last
time, which was partly the reason I didn't go ahead with the project
last time, basically, he wants to put as separate radial circuit for
the new hob or cooker as he does not want to use the existing 6mm 32A
circuit for both.

I discussed my justification for this at the time in this thread.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/uk.d...o/IaT72ThJBAAJ


I just want the installation to be fully complient with the regs, no
more!




--
Email does not work

ARW Wrote in message:
On 17/03/2019 16:00, Graham. wrote:

Kitchen fitter is coming to start work at 0800 tomorrow. Complete
refurb. I am a little concerned about the electrical work he is going
to do, and a couple of mantras he has chanted.

The first one is "Kitchens are like bathrooms under Part P". That's
not been the case for about five years has it?

The other one is "Kitchen ring circuits must be exclusive to the
kitchen". Has that *ever* been the case?

I grant you if you were rewiring the house, you would almost certainly
design it that way, but is there really a hard & fast rule about it?

The issue is three sockets in the adjoining conservatory which are
part of the existing kitchen ring.

Actually he does not know that yet (but will find out tomorrow), he
has indicated to me that he intends to put in a new circuit for the
kitchen sockets regardless.

Making alternative provision for the conservatory sockets will be
challenging, due to concrete floors in the conservatory and the back
half of the kitchen.

Finally, I have run into the same issue with this electrician as last
time, which was partly the reason I didn't go ahead with the project
last time, basically, he wants to put as separate radial circuit for
the new hob or cooker as he does not want to use the existing 6mm 32A
circuit for both.

I discussed my justification for this at the time in this thread.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/uk.d...o/IaT72ThJBAAJ


I just want the installation to be fully complient with the regs, no
more!


Why are you using him?
v
--
Adam

You may well ask! Kitchen fitter's original trade was
electrician, apparently.

--


%Profound_observation%


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

Wrote in message:
On Sunday, 17 March 2019 16:00:39 UTC, Graham. wrote:
The other one is "Kitchen ring circuits must be exclusive to the
kitchen". Has that *ever* been the case?

Not AFAIK, and there would be good reason for a kitchen sharing a ring or rings with other rooms with low power demand. A lot of houses are split front/back with means the kitchen shares the socket circuit with the back bedroom.

I grant you if you were rewiring the house, you would almost certainly
design it that way, but is there really a hard & fast rule about it?

No, and really rather inconvenient if *all* the sockets in the kitchen went off. I'd much rather split a kitchen over two circuits if possible.

Finally, I have run into the same issue with this electrician as last
time, which was partly the reason I didn't go ahead with the project
last time, basically, he wants to put as separate radial circuit for
the new hob or cooker as he does not want to use the existing 6mm 32A
circuit for both.

Ask to see his demand and cable sizing calculations as part of the design certificate.

Owain




Thanks Owen, that makes sense.
--


%Profound_observation%


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On 17/03/2019 20:28, Graham. wrote:
John Rumm Wrote in message:
On 17/03/2019 16:00, Graham. wrote:

Kitchen fitter is coming to start work at 0800 tomorrow. Complete
refurb. I am a little concerned about the electrical work he is going
to do, and a couple of mantras he has chanted.

The first one is "Kitchens are like bathrooms under Part P". That's
not been the case for about five years has it?

The latest part P doc is from 2003:

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ved-document-p

and that was the first to remove kitchens from the "special locations"
category.


Thanks John, I know you meant 2013.

Yup, sorry - spotted that as I just re-read the bit you quoted!

Maybe it's his way of divorcing his work from previous unseen
abortions, I could admire him for that, OTOH it may be more about
the £600 extra beyond the original estimate, he wants for the
rewire

Could be...


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm Wrote in message:
On 17/03/2019 16:00, Graham. wrote:

Kitchen fitter is coming to start work at 0800 tomorrow. Complete
refurb. I am a little concerned about the electrical work he is going
to do, and a couple of mantras he has chanted.

The first one is "Kitchens are like bathrooms under Part P". That's
not been the case for about five years has it?

The latest part P doc is from 2003:

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ved-document-p

and that was the first to remove kitchens from the "special locations"
category.

The other one is "Kitchen ring circuits must be exclusive to the
kitchen". Has that *ever* been the case?

Its never been a wiring regs requirement, however it is a sensible rule
of thumb with a modern kitchen.

I grant you if you were rewiring the house, you would almost certainly
design it that way, but is there really a hard & fast rule about it?

Not that I am aware of.

The issue is three sockets in the adjoining conservatory which are
part of the existing kitchen ring.

Actually he does not know that yet (but will find out tomorrow), he
has indicated to me that he intends to put in a new circuit for the
kitchen sockets regardless.

Making alternative provision for the conservatory sockets will be
challenging, due to concrete floors in the conservatory and the back
half of the kitchen.

Well if he really is putting in a new circuit, then the existing kitchen
one can be demoted to just running the conservatory.

Finally, I have run into the same issue with this electrician as last
time, which was partly the reason I didn't go ahead with the project
last time, basically, he wants to put as separate radial circuit for
the new hob or cooker as he does not want to use the existing 6mm 32A
circuit for both.

I discussed my justification for this at the time in this thread.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/uk.d...o/IaT72ThJBAAJ


I just want the installation to be fully complient with the regs, no
more!

Well, in a sense there is nothing wrong in a regulatory sense with
adding a radial circuit, and in the grand scheme of things probably
represents only a small part of the total cost of the project. However,
you probably don't need it (certainly in a domestic setting anyway).



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/


Thanks John, I know you meant 2013.

Maybe it's his way of divorcing his work from previous unseen
abortions, I could admire him for that, OTOH it may be more about
the £600 extra beyond the original estimate, he wants for the
rewire
--


%Profound_observation%


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On 17/03/2019 20:14, Graham. wrote:
ARW Wrote in message:
On 17/03/2019 16:00, Graham. wrote:

Kitchen fitter is coming to start work at 0800 tomorrow. Complete
refurb. I am a little concerned about the electrical work he is going
to do, and a couple of mantras he has chanted.

The first one is "Kitchens are like bathrooms under Part P". That's
not been the case for about five years has it?

The other one is "Kitchen ring circuits must be exclusive to the
kitchen". Has that *ever* been the case?

I grant you if you were rewiring the house, you would almost certainly
design it that way, but is there really a hard & fast rule about it?

The issue is three sockets in the adjoining conservatory which are
part of the existing kitchen ring.

Actually he does not know that yet (but will find out tomorrow), he
has indicated to me that he intends to put in a new circuit for the
kitchen sockets regardless.

Making alternative provision for the conservatory sockets will be
challenging, due to concrete floors in the conservatory and the back
half of the kitchen.

Finally, I have run into the same issue with this electrician as last
time, which was partly the reason I didn't go ahead with the project
last time, basically, he wants to put as separate radial circuit for
the new hob or cooker as he does not want to use the existing 6mm 32A
circuit for both.

I discussed my justification for this at the time in this thread.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/uk.d...o/IaT72ThJBAAJ


I just want the installation to be fully complient with the regs, no
more!


Why are you using him?

v
--
Adam

You may well ask! Kitchen fitter's original trade was
electrician, apparently.



And so why are you employing him then?

You obviously think that he is a knob or a ****.


Would it not make more sense to employ someone that was not a genitalia?



--
Adam

John Rumm Wrote in message:
On 17/03/2019 20:28, Graham. wrote:
John Rumm Wrote in message:
On 17/03/2019 16:00, Graham. wrote:

Kitchen fitter is coming to start work at 0800 tomorrow. Complete
refurb. I am a little concerned about the electrical work he is going
to do, and a couple of mantras he has chanted.

The first one is "Kitchens are like bathrooms under Part P". That's
not been the case for about five years has it?

The latest part P doc is from 2003:

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ved-document-p

and that was the first to remove kitchens from the "special locations"
category.


Thanks John, I know you meant 2013.

Yup, sorry - spotted that as I just re-read the bit you quoted!

Maybe it's his way of divorcing his work from previous unseen
abortions, I could admire him for that, OTOH it may be more about
the £600 extra beyond the original estimate, he wants for the
rewire

Could be...


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/


Hi John

Been out of this for a while fortunately, but wouldn't the
additional new circuit put it back into Part P.
May be irrelevant in this situation and more a point of interest

Phil
--


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On 17/03/2019 21:10, TheChief wrote:
John Rumm Wrote in message:
On 17/03/2019 20:28, Graham. wrote:
John Rumm Wrote in message:
On 17/03/2019 16:00, Graham. wrote:

Kitchen fitter is coming to start work at 0800 tomorrow. Complete
refurb. I am a little concerned about the electrical work he is going
to do, and a couple of mantras he has chanted.

The first one is "Kitchens are like bathrooms under Part P". That's
not been the case for about five years has it?

The latest part P doc is from 2003:

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ved-document-p

and that was the first to remove kitchens from the "special locations"
category.


Thanks John, I know you meant 2013.

Yup, sorry - spotted that as I just re-read the bit you quoted!

Maybe it's his way of divorcing his work from previous unseen
abortions, I could admire him for that, OTOH it may be more about
the £600 extra beyond the original estimate, he wants for the
rewire

Could be...

Hi John

Been out of this for a while fortunately, but wouldn't the
additional new circuit put it back into Part P.
May be irrelevant in this situation and more a point of interest

Yup a complete new circuit would become "notifiable".


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm Wrote in message:
On 17/03/2019 21:10, TheChief wrote:
John Rumm Wrote in message:
On 17/03/2019 20:28, Graham. wrote:
John Rumm Wrote in message:
On 17/03/2019 16:00, Graham. wrote:

Kitchen fitter is coming to start work at 0800 tomorrow. Complete
refurb. I am a little concerned about the electrical work he is going
to do, and a couple of mantras he has chanted.

The first one is "Kitchens are like bathrooms under Part P". That's
not been the case for about five years has it?

The latest part P doc is from 2003:

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ved-document-p

and that was the first to remove kitchens from the "special locations"
category.


Thanks John, I know you meant 2013.

Yup, sorry - spotted that as I just re-read the bit you quoted!

Maybe it's his way of divorcing his work from previous unseen
abortions, I could admire him for that, OTOH it may be more about
the £600 extra beyond the original estimate, he wants for the
rewire

Could be...

Hi John

Been out of this for a while fortunately, but wouldn't the
additional new circuit put it back into Part P.
May be irrelevant in this situation and more a point of interest

Yup a complete new circuit would become "notifiable".


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/


Thx John
--


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Why are you using him?

v
--
Adam

You may well ask! Kitchen fitter's original trade was
electrician, apparently.



And so why are you employing him then?

You obviously think that he is a knob or a ****.


Would it not make more sense to employ someone that was not a genitalia?

Because I employed a "Project Manager" who in turn employs a Gas Safe
guy to install a new boiler (happy with that BTW) and now it's the
turn of his kitchen-fitter-cum-electrician.

--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%

Graham. was thinking very hard :
Because I employed a "Project Manager" who in turn employs a Gas Safe
guy to install a new boiler (happy with that BTW) and now it's the
turn of his kitchen-fitter-cum-electrician.

Your kitchen fitter certainly doesn't sound as if he is qualified to do
the job, or produce the paperwork.

"Can not use the existing red/black 2.5mm cables because the CPC
is thinner than modern cable"
I'm sure it is thinner but is it true it can't be used?

I am guessing that the answer depends on whether or not it's a new
circuit.



--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
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On 18/03/2019 12:02, Graham. wrote:

"Can not use the existing red/black 2.5mm cables because the CPC
is thinner than modern cable"

There was a time when 2.5mm^2 cable had a 1mm^2 CPC. However that was
later changed to 1.5mm^2 (probably anything installed after 1981 should
be ok). So there will still be some old installations out there with the
thinner CPC, but that does not mean *all* red/black installs are like that.

I'm sure it is thinner but is it true it can't be used?

It would be unwise to use it on installations with old BS3036
re-wireable fuses, but on a modern install it will usually be ok
(although one should check by calculation)

I am guessing that the answer depends on whether or not it's a new
circuit.




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 18/03/2019 08:42, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Graham. was thinking very hard :
Because I employed* a "Project Manager" who in turn employs a Gas Safe
guy to install a new boiler (happy with that BTW) and now it's the
turn of his kitchen-fitter-cum-electrician.

Your kitchen fitter certainly doesn't sound as if he is qualified to do
the job, or produce the paperwork.


Could be worse, he could be NICEIC.

--
Adam

On Sunday, 17 March 2019 20:28:04 UTC, Graham. wrote:
John Rumm Wrote in message:
On 17/03/2019 16:00, Graham. wrote:

Kitchen fitter is coming to start work at 0800 tomorrow. Complete
refurb. I am a little concerned about the electrical work he is going
to do, and a couple of mantras he has chanted.

The first one is "Kitchens are like bathrooms under Part P". That's
not been the case for about five years has it?

The latest part P doc is from 2003:

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ved-document-p

and that was the first to remove kitchens from the "special locations"
category.

The other one is "Kitchen ring circuits must be exclusive to the
kitchen". Has that *ever* been the case?

Its never been a wiring regs requirement, however it is a sensible rule
of thumb with a modern kitchen.

sort of. If you're starting from scratch it's a sensible enough decision. If instead it would require extra work, there is seldom good reason to implement it.

Some folk think a 32A crcuit can only supply 32A, but that isn't how it works. The 32A rating is a continuous one. For a minute or 2 here & there load can go way higher without problem, and often does. It's not unusual to find unambitious kitchens where load rises to over 45A at times on an old 30A circuit. Kettle, washing machine, microwave, those alone get you a peak of around 30A. Add a toaster and another heating device and you're well over 40A on occasion.


I grant you if you were rewiring the house, you would almost certainly
design it that way, but is there really a hard & fast rule about it?

Not that I am aware of.

The issue is three sockets in the adjoining conservatory which are
part of the existing kitchen ring.

Actually he does not know that yet (but will find out tomorrow), he
has indicated to me that he intends to put in a new circuit for the
kitchen sockets regardless.

Making alternative provision for the conservatory sockets will be
challenging, due to concrete floors in the conservatory and the back
half of the kitchen.

Well if he really is putting in a new circuit, then the existing kitchen
one can be demoted to just running the conservatory.

Finally, I have run into the same issue with this electrician as last
time, which was partly the reason I didn't go ahead with the project
last time, basically, he wants to put as separate radial circuit for
the new hob or cooker as he does not want to use the existing 6mm 32A
circuit for both.

I discussed my justification for this at the time in this thread.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/uk.d...o/IaT72ThJBAAJ


I just want the installation to be fully complient with the regs, no
more!

Well, in a sense there is nothing wrong in a regulatory sense with
adding a radial circuit, and in the grand scheme of things probably
represents only a small part of the total cost of the project. However,
you probably don't need it (certainly in a domestic setting anyway).

Thanks John, I know you meant 2013.

Maybe it's his way of divorcing his work from previous unseen
abortions, I could admire him for that, OTOH it may be more about
the £600 extra beyond the original estimate, he wants for the
rewire

and that's likely why he's feeding you bs. If you must use him, just say no, you're the customer and don't have to pay his little scams.


NT

On Monday, 18 March 2019 00:20:41 UTC, Graham. wrote:

Why are you using him?

v
--
Adam

You may well ask! Kitchen fitter's original trade was
electrician, apparently.



And so why are you employing him then?

You obviously think that he is a knob or a ****.


Would it not make more sense to employ someone that was not a genitalia?

Because I employed a "Project Manager" who in turn employs a Gas Safe
guy to install a new boiler (happy with that BTW) and now it's the
turn of his kitchen-fitter-cum-electrician.

And since the offered 'electrician' doesn't know what he's doing it's no problem for you to say no.


NT