On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 13:27:27 UTC, dennis@home wrote:
On 13/03/2019 10:38, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 12 March 2019 18:12:08 UTC, charles wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , Bill Wright
wrote:
On 12/03/2019 03:57, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp Esq wrote:

Like yourself though, they all knew everything there was to
know about the subject even before they did the course.

Your sarcasm fails because actually I do know everything
necessary to check the safety of a mains extension lead. As do
many people.

Unfortunately for technical pseudo-elitists it really isn't
rocket science.

Are you saying you've never come across such a thing miss wired,
Bill? In the days when people made up their own extension leads?

I've seen plugs where the brown went to earth. After all brown is
closer to the colour of earth than green.

If it's pre-harmonisation german equipment - red is earth

About 20 years ago one of our German research student wired a plug
up, like that. Perhaps that one reason why we don't allow DIY lead
making and if we really need to they get PAT tested.


One of the engineers at GEC made up some plugs that would pass a PAT
tester but they were so dangerous we banned him from touching anything
electrical.
He stripped about 1 1/2 inches of insulation off each core and screwed
the end into the terminals, we found it after fuses started to blow if
you moved the flex a bit on some he hadn't tightened the strain relief
enough.

When we first started PAT testing I had to unscrew the tops off any none moulded plug for such things checks and change the fuse from 13amp to 5 amp or 3 amp.
Any plug without shrouded pins was removed and replaced.
I had a box of 100s of 13amp fuses at the end, probbly still have them somewhere.
Then the lead was PAT tested using the PAT testing machine.

On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 13:17:41 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 12/03/2019 18:21, tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 12 March 2019 13:15:08 UTC, Bill Wright wrote:
On 12/03/2019 03:57, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp Esq wrote:

Like yourself though, they all knew everything there was to know about
the subject even before they did the course.

Your sarcasm fails because actually I do know everything necessary to
check the safety of a mains extension lead. As do many people.

Unfortunately for technical pseudo-elitists it really isn't rocket science.

Bill

You're welcome to your opinion, but this time it's just wrong.

Its likely that its not wrong, however since you don't have adequate
information to assess Bill's competence to verify if an extension lead
is safe, the statement is pointless.

he is oversimplifying the requirements of PAT testing. Testers that do so make bad choices here & there, exposing others to risk & themselves to the courtroom.

Under different circumstances I'd test you by showing you a bunch of difficult appliances to test. Let's get some examples I've encountered that would catch many pat testers out:

You seem to be discussing more than just extension leads here...

1952 Hoover floor polisher
1937 McMichael radio
1951 Hoover junior vacuum cleaner
1934 2 valve reaction set, home made
Fan heater, 1960s or 70s

as I said he can confine himself to extension leads if he wishes. I'm curious to see if he picks up on all the real world gotchas.

Can't see those being common in the average office, and your average PAT
testing course is unlikely to dwell on specific instructions for vintage
kit.

and there lies a problem. I do test vintage kit. There are all sorts of gotchas one does not see in modern kit. And yes, some of it does pass.

Modern 6 way extension lead
Modern LED lights
Assorted wallwarts
Fan heater, 2017

Wall warts in particular show one of the weaknesses of PAT tests - many
are fundamentally compromised by poor design and yet you can't see that
from outside of the box, and testing to prove the point would be
destructive so unlikely to be popular with clients.

OTOH the test voltage used should suffice to demonstrate them adequate (or not), even if not BS compliant. A PAT pass does not require BS compliance.

99%+ of what you will meet PAT testing for businesses requires some
experience, a small amount of test gear, and a basic level of
understanding of electrical principles. Its a skilled endeavour, but
trainable. It does not require a graduate level engineer.

But the other 1% is less simple. I've seen so many PAT test screwups.


NT

Rocket science on the other hand is difficult - not least because it
involves a vastly wider range of disciplines and far more difficult sums!

On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 13:27:27 UTC, dennis@home wrote:

One of the engineers at GEC made up some plugs that would pass a PAT
tester but they were so dangerous we banned him from touching anything
electrical.
He stripped about 1 1/2 inches of insulation off each core and screwed
the end into the terminals, we found it after fuses started to blow if
you moved the flex a bit on some he hadn't tightened the strain relief
enough.

that's a PAT test fail on 2 points.


NT

On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 13:49:29 UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 13:27:27 UTC, dennis@home wrote:

One of the engineers at GEC made up some plugs that would pass a PAT
tester but they were so dangerous we banned him from touching anything
electrical.
He stripped about 1 1/2 inches of insulation off each core and screwed
the end into the terminals, we found it after fuses started to blow if
you moved the flex a bit on some he hadn't tightened the strain relief
enough.

When we first started PAT testing I had to unscrew the tops off any none moulded plug for such things checks and change the fuse from 13amp to 5 amp or 3 amp.
Any plug without shrouded pins was removed and replaced.
I had a box of 100s of 13amp fuses at the end, probbly still have them somewhere.
Then the lead was PAT tested using the PAT testing machine.

Modern appliances are all safe on a 13A fuse. Old ones not always.


NT

In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
On 13/03/2019 10:38, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 12 March 2019 18:12:08 UTC, charles wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , Bill Wright
wrote:
On 12/03/2019 03:57, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp Esq wrote:

Like yourself though, they all knew everything there was to
know about the subject even before they did the course.

Your sarcasm fails because actually I do know everything
necessary to check the safety of a mains extension lead. As do
many people.

Unfortunately for technical pseudo-elitists it really isn't
rocket science.

Are you saying you've never come across such a thing miss wired,
Bill? In the days when people made up their own extension leads?

I've seen plugs where the brown went to earth. After all brown is
closer to the colour of earth than green.

If it's pre-harmonisation german equipment - red is earth

About 20 years ago one of our German research student wired a plug
up, like that. Perhaps that one reason why we don't allow DIY lead
making and if we really need to they get PAT tested.


One of the engineers at GEC made up some plugs that would pass a PAT
tester but they were so dangerous we banned him from touching anything
electrical.

Err - I'd fail them when I opened the plug top.


He stripped about 1 1/2 inches of insulation off each core and screwed
the end into the terminals, we found it after fuses started to blow if
you moved the flex a bit on some he hadn't tightened the strain relief
enough.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:
On 12/03/2019 16:06, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:
On 12/03/2019 03:57, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp Esq wrote:

Like yourself though, they all knew everything there was to know about
the subject even before they did the course.

Your sarcasm fails because actually I do know everything necessary to
check the safety of a mains extension lead. As do many people.

Unfortunately for technical pseudo-elitists it really isn't rocket
science.

Are you saying you've never come across such a thing miss wired, Bill? In
the days when people made up their own extension leads?

I've seen plugs where the brown went to earth. After all brown is closer
to the colour of earth than green.


Yes I've seen many such things. Very easy to detect. Like I said, not
rocket science.

Sadly it may as well be rocket science to many. Hence the need to test
things.

Long before the days of PAT, every single bit of electrical equipment
brought into a TV studio (unless from an approved supplier) had to be
tested by a qualified person. Especially true of things like electric
guitars and so on. Through bitter experience. And even after, was usually
fed via an individual isolating transformer. And a TV studio in this
respect is not so different to a church hall.

--
*Sleep with a photographer and watch things develop

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , Bill Wright
wrote:
On 12/03/2019 16:06, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Bill Wright
wrote:
On 12/03/2019 03:57, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp Esq wrote:

Like yourself though, they all knew everything there was to know
about the subject even before they did the course.

Your sarcasm fails because actually I do know everything necessary
to check the safety of a mains extension lead. As do many people.

Unfortunately for technical pseudo-elitists it really isn't rocket
science.

Are you saying you've never come across such a thing miss wired,
Bill? In the days when people made up their own extension leads?

I've seen plugs where the brown went to earth. After all brown is
closer to the colour of earth than green.


Yes I've seen many such things. Very easy to detect. Like I said, not
rocket science.

Sadly it may as well be rocket science to many. Hence the need to test
things.

Long before the days of PAT, every single bit of electrical equipment
brought into a TV studio (unless from an approved supplier) had to be
tested by a qualified person. Especially true of things like electric
guitars and so on. Through bitter experience. And even after, was usually
fed via an individual isolating transformer. And a TV studio in this
respect is not so different to a church hall.

In our amateur theatre, I failed an extension lead brought in by a guest
speaker - simply on a visual inspection.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 13:57:20 UTC, wrote:
On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 13:49:29 UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 13:27:27 UTC, dennis@home wrote:

One of the engineers at GEC made up some plugs that would pass a PAT
tester but they were so dangerous we banned him from touching anything
electrical.
He stripped about 1 1/2 inches of insulation off each core and screwed
the end into the terminals, we found it after fuses started to blow if
you moved the flex a bit on some he hadn't tightened the strain relief
enough.

When we first started PAT testing I had to unscrew the tops off any none moulded plug for such things checks and change the fuse from 13amp to 5 amp or 3 amp.
Any plug without shrouded pins was removed and replaced.
I had a box of 100s of 13amp fuses at the end, probbly still have them somewhere.
Then the lead was PAT tested using the PAT testing machine.

Modern appliances are all safe on a 13A fuse. Old ones not always.

But the fuse is to protect the cable not the appliance.
I have 100s of IEC cables in the lab, which almost all have a 3 amp fuse.



NT

On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 16:55:05 UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 13:57:20 UTC, tabby wrote:
On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 13:49:29 UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 13:27:27 UTC, dennis@home wrote:

When we first started PAT testing I had to unscrew the tops off any none moulded plug for such things checks and change the fuse from 13amp to 5 amp or 3 amp.
Any plug without shrouded pins was removed and replaced.
I had a box of 100s of 13amp fuses at the end, probbly still have them somewhere.
Then the lead was PAT tested using the PAT testing machine.

Modern appliances are all safe on a 13A fuse. Old ones not always.

But the fuse is to protect the cable not the appliance.

on recent stuff yes. Old stuff often really does need that 3A fuse if it's to be safe.

I have 100s of IEC cables in the lab, which almost all have a 3 amp fuse.


NT

On 13/03/2019 13:52, wrote:
On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 13:17:41 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 12/03/2019 18:21, tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 12 March 2019 13:15:08 UTC, Bill Wright wrote:
On 12/03/2019 03:57, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp Esq wrote:

Like yourself though, they all knew everything there was to
know about the subject even before they did the course.

Your sarcasm fails because actually I do know everything
necessary to check the safety of a mains extension lead. As do
many people.

Unfortunately for technical pseudo-elitists it really isn't
rocket science.

Bill

You're welcome to your opinion, but this time it's just wrong.

Its likely that its not wrong, however since you don't have
adequate information to assess Bill's competence to verify if an
extension lead is safe, the statement is pointless.

he is oversimplifying the requirements of PAT testing.

Firstly, he was not talking about PAT testing in the broad sense, just
that "necessary to check the safety of a mains extension lead". Secondly
he does not explain the procedure he would use, so again its not
possible to decide if it would be an over simplification.

Testers that
do so make bad choices here & there, exposing others to risk &
themselves to the courtroom.

Of course they do - in fact we all do.



Under different circumstances I'd test you by showing you a bunch
of difficult appliances to test. Let's get some examples I've
encountered that would catch many pat testers out:

You seem to be discussing more than just extension leads here...

1952 Hoover floor polisher 1937 McMichael radio 1951 Hoover
junior vacuum cleaner 1934 2 valve reaction set, home made Fan
heater, 1960s or 70s

as I said he can confine himself to extension leads if he wishes. I'm
curious to see if he picks up on all the real world gotchas.

Can't see those being common in the average office, and your
average PAT testing course is unlikely to dwell on specific
instructions for vintage kit.

and there lies a problem. I do test vintage kit. There are all sorts
of gotchas one does not see in modern kit. And yes, some of it does
pass.

Testing vintage kit is well beyond the scope of PAT testing, and there
is a moderate amount of kit out there that would never have been be able
to pass a PAT test - even when new.

Modern 6 way extension lead Modern LED lights Assorted wallwarts
Fan heater, 2017

Wall warts in particular show one of the weaknesses of PAT tests -
many are fundamentally compromised by poor design and yet you can't
see that from outside of the box, and testing to prove the point
would be destructive so unlikely to be popular with clients.

OTOH the test voltage used should suffice to demonstrate them
adequate (or not), even if not BS compliant. A PAT pass does not
require BS compliance.

While a PAT will include an IR test, it won't do a test with transients
on the mains supply. Hence no way to verify if the internal separation
between mains and ELV is adequate, or if the internal insulation of the
transformer is up to it, or for that matter if it even has a thermal fuse.

99%+ of what you will meet PAT testing for businesses requires
some experience, a small amount of test gear, and a basic level of
understanding of electrical principles. Its a skilled endeavour,
but trainable. It does not require a graduate level engineer.

But the other 1% is less simple. I've seen so many PAT test
screwups.


NT

Rocket science on the other hand is difficult - not least because
it involves a vastly wider range of disciplines and far more
difficult sums!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 13/03/2019 14:38, charles wrote:
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
On 13/03/2019 10:38, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 12 March 2019 18:12:08 UTC, charles wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , Bill Wright
wrote:
On 12/03/2019 03:57, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp Esq wrote:

Like yourself though, they all knew everything there was to
know about the subject even before they did the course.

Your sarcasm fails because actually I do know everything
necessary to check the safety of a mains extension lead. As do
many people.

Unfortunately for technical pseudo-elitists it really isn't
rocket science.

Are you saying you've never come across such a thing miss wired,
Bill? In the days when people made up their own extension leads?

I've seen plugs where the brown went to earth. After all brown is
closer to the colour of earth than green.

If it's pre-harmonisation german equipment - red is earth

About 20 years ago one of our German research student wired a plug
up, like that. Perhaps that one reason why we don't allow DIY lead
making and if we really need to they get PAT tested.


One of the engineers at GEC made up some plugs that would pass a PAT
tester but they were so dangerous we banned him from touching anything
electrical.

Err - I'd fail them when I opened the plug top.

As I said it would pass a PAT tester, I didn't say it would pass a PAT
test if the inspection was done.



He stripped about 1 1/2 inches of insulation off each core and screwed
the end into the terminals, we found it after fuses started to blow if
you moved the flex a bit on some he hadn't tightened the strain relief
enough.

In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
On 13/03/2019 14:38, charles wrote:
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
On 13/03/2019 10:38, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 12 March 2019 18:12:08 UTC, charles wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , Bill Wright
wrote:
On 12/03/2019 03:57, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp Esq wrote:

Like yourself though, they all knew everything there was to
know about the subject even before they did the course.

Your sarcasm fails because actually I do know everything
necessary to check the safety of a mains extension lead. As do
many people.

Unfortunately for technical pseudo-elitists it really isn't
rocket science.

Are you saying you've never come across such a thing miss wired,
Bill? In the days when people made up their own extension leads?

I've seen plugs where the brown went to earth. After all brown is
closer to the colour of earth than green.

If it's pre-harmonisation german equipment - red is earth

About 20 years ago one of our German research student wired a plug
up, like that. Perhaps that one reason why we don't allow DIY lead
making and if we really need to they get PAT tested.


One of the engineers at GEC made up some plugs that would pass a PAT
tester but they were so dangerous we banned him from touching anything
electrical.

Err - I'd fail them when I opened the plug top.

As I said it would pass a PAT tester, I didn't say it would pass a PAT
test if the inspection was done.

Since, as far as I was told, you do the visual inspection first, why did it
ever come near a testing machine?

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 13/03/2019 19:55, charles wrote:
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
On 13/03/2019 14:38, charles wrote:
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
On 13/03/2019 10:38, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 12 March 2019 18:12:08 UTC, charles wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , Bill Wright
wrote:
On 12/03/2019 03:57, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp Esq wrote:

Like yourself though, they all knew everything there was to
know about the subject even before they did the course.

Your sarcasm fails because actually I do know everything
necessary to check the safety of a mains extension lead. As do
many people.

Unfortunately for technical pseudo-elitists it really isn't
rocket science.

Are you saying you've never come across such a thing miss wired,
Bill? In the days when people made up their own extension leads?

I've seen plugs where the brown went to earth. After all brown is
closer to the colour of earth than green.

If it's pre-harmonisation german equipment - red is earth

About 20 years ago one of our German research student wired a plug
up, like that. Perhaps that one reason why we don't allow DIY lead
making and if we really need to they get PAT tested.


One of the engineers at GEC made up some plugs that would pass a PAT
tester but they were so dangerous we banned him from touching anything
electrical.

Err - I'd fail them when I opened the plug top.

As I said it would pass a PAT tester, I didn't say it would pass a PAT
test if the inspection was done.

Since, as far as I was told, you do the visual inspection first, why did it
ever come near a testing machine?


It didn't PAT tests haven.t been around for long.

On 13/03/2019 12:58, wrote:
On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 03:44:34 UTC, Bill Wright wrote:
On 12/03/2019 19:22, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp Esq wrote:

I would suggest that you are not fit to plug the dammned cable into a
socket.

What danger would befall me or others were I to do that? Bear in mind
that I used to buy and install extension cables 25 at a time, and I used
to buy 13A plugs fitted with 3A fuses by the hundred and use them all,
and in fifty years I didn't electrocute or otherwise harm a single person.

Bill

I used to do various silly things with mains when a kid, no-one got harmed, doesn't mean it was safe.


Comparing your childhood antics with my lifetime's experience is false
equivalence.

Bill

On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 03:44:33 +0000, Bill Wright
wrote:

On 12/03/2019 19:22, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp Esq wrote:

Your sarcasm fails because actually I do know everything necessary to
check the safety of a mains extension lead. As do many people.

Unfortunately for technical pseudo-elitists it really isn't rocket science.

Bill

Really?

I would suggest that you are not fit to plug the dammned cable into a
socket.

What danger would befall me or others were I to do that? Bear in mind
that I used to buy and install extension cables 25 at a time, and I used
to buy 13A plugs fitted with 3A fuses by the hundred and use them all,
and in fifty years I didn't electrocute or otherwise harm a single person.

Bill

You must be bloody good then.

25 at a time eh? That's impressive. Was it the thrd, 10th or 15th
that made you such an astounding professional?


Commiserations on the fused plugs.

The three doesn't mean 3kW you know.

That's probably why you bought so many.

You should have asked the nice man at the shop to put the proper fuse
in.

AB

On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 17:38:11 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 13/03/2019 13:52, tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 13:17:41 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 12/03/2019 18:21, tabbypurr wrote:

he is oversimplifying the requirements of PAT testing.

Firstly, he was not talking about PAT testing in the broad sense, just
that "necessary to check the safety of a mains extension lead". Secondly

There are many testers that pass unsafe leads at times due to an overly simplistic view of the subject.

he does not explain the procedure he would use, so again its not
possible to decide if it would be an over simplification.

It is, reread what he wrote.

Testers that
do so make bad choices here & there, exposing others to risk &
themselves to the courtroom.

Of course they do - in fact we all do.

really? that sounds like bad pratice


Under different circumstances I'd test you by showing you a bunch
of difficult appliances to test. Let's get some examples I've
encountered that would catch many pat testers out:

You seem to be discussing more than just extension leads here...

1952 Hoover floor polisher 1937 McMichael radio 1951 Hoover
junior vacuum cleaner 1934 2 valve reaction set, home made Fan
heater, 1960s or 70s

as I said he can confine himself to extension leads if he wishes. I'm
curious to see if he picks up on all the real world gotchas.

Can't see those being common in the average office, and your
average PAT testing course is unlikely to dwell on specific
instructions for vintage kit.

and there lies a problem. I do test vintage kit. There are all sorts
of gotchas one does not see in modern kit. And yes, some of it does
pass.

Testing vintage kit is well beyond the scope of PAT testing,

It is PAT testable. A lot of testers don't understand the issues though.

and there
is a moderate amount of kit out there that would never have been be able
to pass a PAT test - even when new.

of course

Modern 6 way extension lead Modern LED lights Assorted wallwarts
Fan heater, 2017

Wall warts in particular show one of the weaknesses of PAT tests -
many are fundamentally compromised by poor design and yet you can't
see that from outside of the box, and testing to prove the point
would be destructive so unlikely to be popular with clients.

OTOH the test voltage used should suffice to demonstrate them
adequate (or not), even if not BS compliant. A PAT pass does not
require BS compliance.

While a PAT will include an IR test, it won't do a test with transients
on the mains supply.

Insulation PAT testing is done at above mains voltage

Hence no way to verify if the internal separation
between mains and ELV is adequate, or if the internal insulation of the
transformer is up to it,

How many PAT passed wallwarts kill people?

or for that matter if it even has a thermal fuse.

no, PAT testing does not test BS compliance


NT

On Thursday, 14 March 2019 01:37:38 UTC, Bill Wright wrote:
On 13/03/2019 12:58, tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 03:44:34 UTC, Bill Wright wrote:
On 12/03/2019 19:22, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp Esq wrote:

I would suggest that you are not fit to plug the dammned cable into a
socket.

What danger would befall me or others were I to do that? Bear in mind
that I used to buy and install extension cables 25 at a time, and I used
to buy 13A plugs fitted with 3A fuses by the hundred and use them all,
and in fifty years I didn't electrocute or otherwise harm a single person.

Bill

I used to do various silly things with mains when a kid, no-one got harmed, doesn't mean it was safe.


Comparing your childhood antics with my lifetime's experience is false
equivalence.

Bill

I think the point is clear enough.

On Tue, 12 Mar 2019 07:02:20 +1100, cantankerous trolling senile geezer Rot
Speed blabbered, again:



Nope, just another short circuit between his ears.

The place where there is ONLY **** in your case, senile Rot?

--
FredXX to Rot Speed:
"You are still an idiot and an embarrassment to your country. No wonder
we shippe the likes of you out of the British Isles. Perhaps stupidity
and criminality is inherited after all?"
Message-ID:

On Tue, 12 Mar 2019 06:51:22 +1100, cantankerous trolling senile geezer Rot
Speed blabbered, again:


bzzt.

You're not sposed to use your vibrator in here, you animal.

You are not supposed to be trolling in a UK ng, you trolling piece of senile
Ozzie ****!

--
Bod addressing abnormal senile quarreller Rot:
"Do you practice arguing with yourself in an empty room?"
MID:

On Tue, 12 Mar 2019 06:53:19 +1100, cantankerous trolling senile geezer Rot
Speed blabbered, again:


maybe in another 200 years that'll actually be possible. IRL there are
hazards in pretty much everything we interact with.

There still will be in 200 years

Especially if humanity still hasn't learned how to cope with psychopaths and
sociopaths like you that keep infesting it!

--
Richard addressing Rot Speed:
"**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID:

On Tue, 12 Mar 2019 07:05:56 +1100, cantankerous trolling senile geezer Rot
Speed blabbered, again:

FLUSH senile troll****

....and much better air in here again!

--
about senile Rot Speed:
"This is like having a conversation with someone with brain damage."
MID:

On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 17:29:08 UTC, wrote:
On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 16:55:05 UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 13:57:20 UTC, tabby wrote:
On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 13:49:29 UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 13:27:27 UTC, dennis@home wrote:

When we first started PAT testing I had to unscrew the tops off any none moulded plug for such things checks and change the fuse from 13amp to 5 amp or 3 amp.
Any plug without shrouded pins was removed and replaced.
I had a box of 100s of 13amp fuses at the end, probbly still have them somewhere.
Then the lead was PAT tested using the PAT testing machine.

Modern appliances are all safe on a 13A fuse. Old ones not always.

But the fuse is to protect the cable not the appliance.

on recent stuff yes. Old stuff often really does need that 3A fuse if it's to be safe.

But it has to come up to the recent standards that;s why you have tp replace the cord and check for earthing on antique light fittings, although I cna think you can leave them as is providing they can't be connected up easily.
Or for specialsed places like museums.


My department has statred worrying about what sort of solder were using and whether we need fume extractors and what sort.
Seems to crop up every few years, they'll be relooking at PAT testing again soon.

Wonder what they'll decide this year.



I have 100s of IEC cables in the lab, which almost all have a 3 amp fuse.


NT

On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 18:46:32 UTC, dennis@home wrote:
On 13/03/2019 14:38, charles wrote:


Err - I'd fail them when I opened the plug top.

As I said it would pass a PAT tester, I didn't say it would pass a PAT
test if the inspection was done.

I've had an extention lead that has had it's pass sticker put on it, when it should have failed the visual inspection.

And I've had 2 or 3 soldering irons fail the visual inspection that shouldn't have been considered as PAT test fails.

In article ff9a9243-3888-4584-8c76-a0cf3eea7a95
@googlegroups.com, says...

On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 17:38:11 UTC, John Rumm wrote:

Testing vintage kit is well beyond the scope of PAT testing,

It is PAT testable. A lot of testers don't understand the issues though.


Let's see. Vintage radios and TVs using 'live chassis'
construction techniques, especially if the mains connection
was via a reversible plug/socket arrangement on the back of
the receiver.

Uninsulated control spindles so that, if the felt washer
between the knob and cabinet is missing, a fine probe in the
gap could come into contact with the potentially live spindle,
depending on the design of the knob. If the knob isn't secured
by an inaccessible strong spring clip, the securing grub screw
can also be contacted with a suitable probe.

At the rear, again a sutable probe through the ventilation
slots could contact the chassis or other live parts.

But would any of these result in a PAT fail?

If so, how can a fan heater pass a PAT test as the live
element is accessible through the much larger slots in the
exit grille?

Folk whose hobby is restoring vintage sets frequently complain
about the loss of rare items because most charity and second
hand shops refuse to accept them because they have no-one able
to PAT test them or simply because the mains lead has
red/black insulation, although it is perfectly legal on any
set built pre-1970, so these sets go to the tip instead.

--

Terry

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In article ,
says...

Long before the days of PAT, every single bit of electrical
equipment brought into a TV studio (unless from an approved
supplier) had to be tested by a qualified person. Especially
true of things like electric guitars and so on. Through
bitter experience. And even after, was usually
fed via an individual isolating transformer. And a TV studio
in this respect is not so different to a church hall.

How far back was this? I used to look after the equipment for
a local pop group in the mid 60s who appeared on BBC radio on
several occasions - sessions at BH, Maida Vale, The Playhouse
Theatre, Camnden Theatre and the Paris, amongst others.

The only comment about the equipment was when the lead
guitarist was tuning up and using his new fuzz box.

The studio engineer came in and said "We seem to have a bit of
distortion", to which John replied "It's a fuzz box -
everybody's using them these days".

To which the reply was "Can we be different and do without
it?"

--

Terry

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On Thursday, 14 March 2019 12:06:57 UTC, Terry Casey wrote:
In article ff9a9243-3888-4584-8c76-a0cf3eea7a95
@googlegroups.com, says...

On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 17:38:11 UTC, John Rumm wrote:

Testing vintage kit is well beyond the scope of PAT testing,

It is PAT testable. A lot of testers don't understand the issues though.


Let's see. Vintage radios and TVs using 'live chassis'
construction techniques, especially if the mains connection
was via a reversible plug/socket arrangement on the back of
the receiver.

Uninsulated control spindles so that, if the felt washer
between the knob and cabinet is missing, a fine probe in the
gap could come into contact with the potentially live spindle,
depending on the design of the knob. If the knob isn't secured
by an inaccessible strong spring clip, the securing grub screw
can also be contacted with a suitable probe.

At the rear, again a sutable probe through the ventilation
slots could contact the chassis or other live parts.

But would any of these result in a PAT fail?

If so, how can a fan heater pass a PAT test as the live
element is accessible through the much larger slots in the
exit grille?

Only things that are going to be used need to be PAT tested.
I have a work bench with a pillar drill that failed it's H&S
inspection about 7 years ago. The failure was not fixed.
About a year later the H&S people returned and asked me if I was worried
that the drill doesn't meat the H&S requirement I said no ,not really, because I won't allow anyone to use it, and they smiled and left.


Folk whose hobby is restoring vintage sets frequently complain
about the loss of rare items because most charity and second
hand shops refuse to accept them because they have no-one able
to PAT test them or simply because the mains lead has
red/black insulation, although it is perfectly legal on any
set built pre-1970, so these sets go to the tip instead.

It is a shame but if such places knew better, they could advise on what should or could be done.
Anyone watch salvage hunters, they buy lots of old lights but have to rewire them to current ;-) safety standards before they can sell them on to be used.

I'm not sure if you could sell something with the idea that it is not meant to be used.

You can buy guns ok providing they can't easily be fired, but the law does get more complicated then.

On 14/03/2019 09:15, wrote:


I used to do various silly things with mains when a kid, no-one got harmed, doesn't mean it was safe.


Comparing your childhood antics with my lifetime's experience is false
equivalence.

Bill

I think the point is clear enough.

It's clearly fallacious if that's what you mean.

Bill

On 14/03/2019 05:08, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp Esq wrote:

What danger would befall me or others were I to do that? Bear in mind
that I used to buy and install extension cables 25 at a time, and I used
to buy 13A plugs fitted with 3A fuses by the hundred and use them all,
and in fifty years I didn't electrocute or otherwise harm a single person.

Bill

You must be bloody good then.

25 at a time eh? That's impressive. Was it the thrd, 10th or 15th
that made you such an astounding professional?


Commiserations on the fused plugs.

The three doesn't mean 3kW you know.

That's probably why you bought so many.

You should have asked the nice man at the shop to put the proper fuse
in.

That must take the prize for the silliest post of the year.

Bill

On 14/03/2019 12:06, Terry Casey wrote:
In article ff9a9243-3888-4584-8c76-a0cf3eea7a95
@googlegroups.com, says...

On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 17:38:11 UTC, John Rumm wrote:

Testing vintage kit is well beyond the scope of PAT testing,

It is PAT testable. A lot of testers don't understand the issues though.


Let's see. Vintage radios and TVs using 'live chassis'
construction techniques, especially if the mains connection
was via a reversible plug/socket arrangement on the back of
the receiver.

Uninsulated control spindles so that, if the felt washer
between the knob and cabinet is missing, a fine probe in the
gap could come into contact with the potentially live spindle,
depending on the design of the knob. If the knob isn't secured
by an inaccessible strong spring clip, the securing grub screw
can also be contacted with a suitable probe.

At the rear, again a sutable probe through the ventilation
slots could contact the chassis or other live parts.

But would any of these result in a PAT fail?

If so, how can a fan heater pass a PAT test as the live
element is accessible through the much larger slots in the
exit grille?

Folk whose hobby is restoring vintage sets frequently complain
about the loss of rare items because most charity and second
hand shops refuse to accept them because they have no-one able
to PAT test them or simply because the mains lead has
red/black insulation, although it is perfectly legal on any
set built pre-1970, so these sets go to the tip instead.

You can drive old cars without brake lights/seatbelts and really old
ones with barely any brakes on the London to Brighton 'old crocks' race.

--
Max Demian

In article 85d4a6e4-c3b2-4846-baff-85e4c615dbd3
@googlegroups.com, says...


Only things that are going to be used need to be PAT tested.

Well, if you think that a vintage TV isn't going to be used,
explain why large numbers of these are sold in the UK?

http://www.tech-retro.com/Aurora_Des...Converter.html

The most commonly used one is: SCRF405A PAL(625)to 405/25i
with RF System A modulator.

The 625-line signals come from DVD players and Freeview Set
Top Boxes

Here's a distribution system I designed:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/e6lc0cc7c5...h_RF_Distribut
ion_V4.2.png?dl=0

or

http://tinyurl.com/dulwichbvws

As you can see from the large number of 8-way taps, it is
capable of feeding lots of vintage TVs!

Don't be fooled by the description 'SHED'. Think Swiss Chalet!

From memory from when I surveyed it, it was 10m x 11m.

Gerry Wells, who owned the property, sadly died since that
network was installed and the house has now been restored to
domestic use but the rest of the sight was left in trust to
the British Vintage Wireless Society who are currently in the
process of providing addition building space on the site.


--

Terry

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On Thursday, 14 March 2019 11:17:35 UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 17:29:08 UTC, tabby wrote:
On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 16:55:05 UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 13:57:20 UTC, tabby wrote:
On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 13:49:29 UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 13:27:27 UTC, dennis@home wrote:

When we first started PAT testing I had to unscrew the tops off any none moulded plug for such things checks and change the fuse from 13amp to 5 amp or 3 amp.
Any plug without shrouded pins was removed and replaced.
I had a box of 100s of 13amp fuses at the end, probbly still have them somewhere.
Then the lead was PAT tested using the PAT testing machine.

Modern appliances are all safe on a 13A fuse. Old ones not always.

But the fuse is to protect the cable not the appliance.

on recent stuff yes. Old stuff often really does need that 3A fuse if it's to be safe.

But it has to come up to the recent standards that;s why you have tp replace the cord

My 1937 mains lead is still ok & compliant. Many that age aren't of course.

and check for earthing on antique light fittings, although I cna think you can leave them as is providing they can't be connected up easily.
Or for specialsed places like museums.

Can be an interesting question how one can make noncompliant antiques safe.


NT

On Thursday, 14 March 2019 12:06:57 UTC, Terry Casey wrote:
In article ff9a9243-3888-4584-8c76-a0cf3eea7a95
@googlegroups.com, tabbypurr says...
On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 17:38:11 UTC, John Rumm wrote:

Testing vintage kit is well beyond the scope of PAT testing,

It is PAT testable. A lot of testers don't understand the issues though.


Let's see. Vintage radios and TVs using 'live chassis'
construction techniques, especially if the mains connection
was via a reversible plug/socket arrangement on the back of
the receiver.

that shouldn't change the live chassi issue, but the connectors are mostly not compliant - touchable live pins, no cordgrip. Can be bypassed.

Uninsulated control spindles so that, if the felt washer
between the knob and cabinet is missing, a fine probe in the
gap could come into contact with the potentially live spindle,
depending on the design of the knob. If the knob isn't secured
by an inaccessible strong spring clip, the securing grub screw
can also be contacted with a suitable probe.

Fit felt washer, cut one if necessary. A soft epoxy resin over the set screw.

At the rear, again a sutable probe through the ventilation
slots could contact the chassis or other live parts.

as long as it's not touchable. If it is, affix plastic netting.

But would any of these result in a PAT fail?

the connector usually

If so, how can a fan heater pass a PAT test as the live
element is accessible through the much larger slots in the
exit grille?

not IME. A lot of vintage heaters are fails by design.

Folk whose hobby is restoring vintage sets frequently complain
about the loss of rare items because most charity and second
hand shops refuse to accept them because they have no-one able
to PAT test them or simply because the mains lead has
red/black insulation, although it is perfectly legal on any
set built pre-1970, so these sets go to the tip instead.

or ebay


NT

On Thursday, 14 March 2019 12:37:16 UTC, Bill Wright wrote:
On 14/03/2019 09:15, tabbypurr wrote:


I used to do various silly things with mains when a kid, no-one got harmed, doesn't mean it was safe.


Comparing your childhood antics with my lifetime's experience is false
equivalence.

Bill

I think the point is clear enough.

It's clearly fallacious if that's what you mean.

Bill

your point that not being harmed equals safe certainly was.
I think we can agree on that.

In article ,
wrote:
On Thursday, 14 March 2019 11:17:35 UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 17:29:08 UTC, tabby wrote:
On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 16:55:05 UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 13:57:20 UTC, tabby wrote:
On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 13:49:29 UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 13:27:27 UTC, dennis@home wrote:

When we first started PAT testing I had to unscrew the tops off
any none moulded plug for such things checks and change the
fuse from 13amp to 5 amp or 3 amp. Any plug without shrouded
pins was removed and replaced. I had a box of 100s of 13amp
fuses at the end, probbly still have them somewhere. Then the
lead was PAT tested using the PAT testing machine.

Modern appliances are all safe on a 13A fuse. Old ones not always.

But the fuse is to protect the cable not the appliance.

on recent stuff yes. Old stuff often really does need that 3A fuse if
it's to be safe.

But it has to come up to the recent standards that;s why you have tp
replace the cord

My 1937 mains lead is still ok & compliant. Many that age aren't of
course.

and check for earthing on antique light fittings, although I cna think
you can leave them as is providing they can't be connected up easily.
Or for specialsed places like museums.

Can be an interesting question how one can make noncompliant antiques
safe.

Feed mains through an isolating transformer ?

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, 14 March 2019 12:06:57 UTC, Terry Casey wrote:
In article ff9a9243-3888-4584-8c76-a0cf3eea7a95
@googlegroups.com, says...

On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 17:38:11 UTC, John Rumm wrote:

Testing vintage kit is well beyond the scope of PAT testing,

It is PAT testable. A lot of testers don't understand the issues
though.


Let's see. Vintage radios and TVs using 'live chassis'
construction techniques, especially if the mains connection
was via a reversible plug/socket arrangement on the back of
the receiver.

Uninsulated control spindles so that, if the felt washer
between the knob and cabinet is missing, a fine probe in the
gap could come into contact with the potentially live spindle,
depending on the design of the knob. If the knob isn't secured
by an inaccessible strong spring clip, the securing grub screw
can also be contacted with a suitable probe.

At the rear, again a sutable probe through the ventilation
slots could contact the chassis or other live parts.

But would any of these result in a PAT fail?

If so, how can a fan heater pass a PAT test as the live
element is accessible through the much larger slots in the
exit grille?

Only things that are going to be used need to be PAT tested.
I have a work bench with a pillar drill that failed it's H&S
inspection about 7 years ago. The failure was not fixed.
About a year later the H&S people returned and asked me if I was worried
that the drill doesn't meat the H&S requirement I said no ,not really,
because I won't allow anyone to use it, and they smiled and left.


Folk whose hobby is restoring vintage sets frequently complain
about the loss of rare items because most charity and second
hand shops refuse to accept them because they have no-one able
to PAT test them or simply because the mains lead has
red/black insulation, although it is perfectly legal on any
set built pre-1970, so these sets go to the tip instead.

It is a shame but if such places knew better, they could advise on what
should or could be done.
Anyone watch salvage hunters, they buy lots of old lights but have to
rewire them to current ;-) safety standards before they can sell them on
to be used.

I'm not sure if you could sell something with the idea that it is not
meant to be used.

Corse you can, it happens all the time with stuff that's just hung on the
wall and
isnt allowed to be used anymore like battle axes, claymores, medieval flails
etc.

Even the parliamentary mace isnt meant to be used anymore, just carried
around and used as a stage prop to bang on the door with etc. There'd
be hell to pay if some fool in fancy dress broke the door down with it.

wrote in message
...
On Thursday, 14 March 2019 01:37:38 UTC, Bill Wright wrote:
On 13/03/2019 12:58, tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 03:44:34 UTC, Bill Wright wrote:
On 12/03/2019 19:22, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp Esq wrote:

I would suggest that you are not fit to plug the dammned cable into a
socket.

What danger would befall me or others were I to do that? Bear in mind
that I used to buy and install extension cables 25 at a time, and I
used
to buy 13A plugs fitted with 3A fuses by the hundred and use them all,
and in fifty years I didn't electrocute or otherwise harm a single
person.

I used to do various silly things with mains when a kid, no-one got
harmed, doesn't mean it was safe.


Comparing your childhood antics with my lifetime's experience is false
equivalence.

I think the point is clear enough.

Yep, that you are so ****ing stupid that you can't even
work out how to check if a ****ing extension cord is safe.

In article e5784359-80eb-490a-9440-60969b339866
@googlegroups.com, says...

On Thursday, 14 March 2019 12:06:57 UTC, Terry Casey wrote:
In article ff9a9243-3888-4584-8c76-a0cf3eea7a95

Let's see. Vintage radios and TVs using 'live chassis'
construction techniques, especially if the mains connection
was via a reversible plug/socket arrangement on the back of
the receiver.

that shouldn't change the live chassi issue, but the connectors are mostly not compliant - touchable live pins, no cordgrip. Can be bypassed.

Not in my experience.

The pins of the male connector don't protrude beyond the back
of the set which has a slot with just enough clearance for the
female connect to pass through so that the only time that the
pins are exposed is when the connector is removed.

I've vever come acros a connector without a cord grip (usually
moulded serrations in both sides so that the flat flex is
firmly clamped when the fiving screw is tightened.

Uninsulated control spindles so that, if the felt washer
between the knob and cabinet is missing, a fine probe in the
gap could come into contact with the potentially live spindle,
depending on the design of the knob. If the knob isn't secured
by an inaccessible strong spring clip, the securing grub screw
can also be contacted with a suitable probe.

Fit felt washer, cut one if necessary. A soft epoxy resin over the set screw.

I was thinking of a drop of molten candle wax!

At the rear, again a sutable probe through the ventilation
slots could contact the chassis or other live parts.

as long as it's not touchable. If it is, affix plastic netting.

But would any of these result in a PAT fail?

the connector usually

No, for the reason I stated above


--

Terry

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 06:06:11 +1100, cantankerous trolling senile geezer Rot
Speed blabbered, again:



Yep, that you are so ****ing stupid that you can't even
work out how to check if a ****ing extension cord is safe.

Nope, but the fact that YOU are so stupid that you get up every morning
between 1 and 4 am in Australia, just so you can keep quarrelling on Usenet
without too long a break!

--
pamela about Rot Speed:
"His off the cuff expertise demonstrates how little he knows..."
MID:

On 14/03/2019 17:52, wrote:
On Thursday, 14 March 2019 12:37:16 UTC, Bill Wright wrote:
On 14/03/2019 09:15, tabbypurr wrote:


I used to do various silly things with mains when a kid, no-one got harmed, doesn't mean it was safe.


Comparing your childhood antics with my lifetime's experience is false
equivalence.

Bill

I think the point is clear enough.

It's clearly fallacious if that's what you mean.

Bill

your point that not being harmed equals safe certainly was.
I think we can agree on that.

My point being twofold. One, that where a risk has been shown to be
effectively non-existent by the situation occurring many times without
harm befalling man or beast then it should be treated that way, and two,
that having assessed and used countless mains extension leads without
harming the afore mentioned man or beast, I am de facto qualified to
test mains extension leads.

Bill

On 14/03/2019 12:06, Terry Casey wrote:
In article ff9a9243-3888-4584-8c76-a0cf3eea7a95
@googlegroups.com, says...

On Wednesday, 13 March 2019 17:38:11 UTC, John Rumm wrote:

Testing vintage kit is well beyond the scope of PAT testing,

It is PAT testable. A lot of testers don't understand the issues though.


Let's see. Vintage radios and TVs using 'live chassis'
construction techniques, especially if the mains connection
was via a reversible plug/socket arrangement on the back of
the receiver.

Uninsulated control spindles so that, if the felt washer
between the knob and cabinet is missing, a fine probe in the
gap could come into contact with the potentially live spindle,
depending on the design of the knob. If the knob isn't secured
by an inaccessible strong spring clip, the securing grub screw
can also be contacted with a suitable probe.

There are some where the live chassis is accessible with a regular mark
one finger!

At the rear, again a sutable probe through the ventilation
slots could contact the chassis or other live parts.

But would any of these result in a PAT fail?

If so, how can a fan heater pass a PAT test as the live
element is accessible through the much larger slots in the
exit grille?

Folk whose hobby is restoring vintage sets frequently complain
about the loss of rare items because most charity and second
hand shops refuse to accept them because they have no-one able
to PAT test them or simply because the mains lead has
red/black insulation, although it is perfectly legal on any
set built pre-1970, so these sets go to the tip instead.

Perhaps the solution is if that is your thing, to visit all the likely
shops and leave them a card saying if you get any donations of this kind
of kit, please let me know and I will come get it.

(or failing that, offer to do free PAT testing for them on the
understanding you can keep any "interesting" stuff that won't pass the
test).


--
Cheers,

John.

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