So far all the normal tricks don't seem to be doing it!

Short version:

There is a leak somewhere in my central heating system - its losing
pressure regularly, and needs topping up with at least a couple of
litres a day.

Longer version:

The pipework is of questionable vintage, but I am guessing 30+ years
old. Almost exclusively copper apart from about 3m of speedfit for one
particularly awkward pipe run. Largish S Plan+ system - unvented
cylinder and about 21 rads (split into separate upstairs and downstairs
zones).

The system was pretty good - only needing a small top up at most once or
twice a year. However over the last year its got worse. It got to the
point where it needed a top up every other week or so. So I carefully
checked around any areas where there have been changes in recent times.

I found one radiator tail in the downstairs loo where I had needed to do
a "live" pipework change and had used a cuprofit fitting that was
knocking about in the plumbing kit. That had a very slight indication of
a weep from around the base of the fitting. So I chopped it out and
re-did it properly. After that, no improvement or the rate of loss
seemed to get even worse! Even though there is definitely no evidence of
a leak in that location now.

So I checked the PRV drain pipe on the system boiler. That's not letting
by. Checked the drain point tap which is outside - again its dry.

Seems unlikely its the coil in the indirect cylinder since it is an
unvented cylinder, and the water pressure inside it is higher than that
of the CH primary - so if that leaked the CH would fill up!

So I had a careful look about. No indications of staining on the
ceilings, and it seems unlily one could lose that much water by
evaporation from the leak point. so I thought ground floor would be more
likely - there is loads of space in the under floor void where you could
lose water without it showing up anywhere.

However over the last few weeks I managed to get eyes on pretty much all
the GF pipework (sometimes indirectly by bribing second born to climb
through a hole in the floor and romp about in void and look for any
signs of leaks or damp, or corroded looking pipes etc). Got some more
boards up today and looked at the last two rad pipe runs. Again all ok.

Any bright ideas?


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 09/03/2019 18:25, John Rumm wrote:

Any bright ideas?


I cut strips of kitchen paper and tie it around every possible leaking
joint.

I live in a hard water area so even if the water evaporates I get
calcium deposits after a few weeks or months, these can be felt by the
paper going slightly hard and discoloured.

Two litres sounds a lot. How do you measure it?

On Sat, 9 Mar 2019 18:25:08 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

Any bright ideas?

Fluorescein dye and a UV flashlight?


Thomas Prufer

On 09/03/2019 18:44, Paul Welsh wrote:
On 09/03/2019 18:25, John Rumm wrote:

Any bright ideas?


I cut strips of kitchen paper and tie it around every possible leaking
joint.

I live in a hard water area so even if the water evaporates I get
calcium deposits after a few weeks or months, these can be felt by the
paper going slightly hard and discoloured.

Handy tip, ta.

Two litres sounds a lot. How do you measure it?

I can't directly - I can only estimate by how long I turn the filling
loop on to restore the pressure, and compare that time with filling a
container at the kitchen tap. We have high water pressure (~6 bar), so
it can shift a fair amount in a few seconds.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Saturday, 9 March 2019 18:25:13 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
So far all the normal tricks don't seem to be doing it!

Short version:

There is a leak somewhere in my central heating system - its losing
pressure regularly, and needs topping up with at least a couple of
litres a day.

Longer version:

The pipework is of questionable vintage, but I am guessing 30+ years
old. Almost exclusively copper apart from about 3m of speedfit for one
particularly awkward pipe run. Largish S Plan+ system - unvented
cylinder and about 21 rads (split into separate upstairs and downstairs
zones).

The system was pretty good - only needing a small top up at most once or
twice a year. However over the last year its got worse. It got to the
point where it needed a top up every other week or so. So I carefully
checked around any areas where there have been changes in recent times.

I found one radiator tail in the downstairs loo where I had needed to do
a "live" pipework change and had used a cuprofit fitting that was
knocking about in the plumbing kit. That had a very slight indication of
a weep from around the base of the fitting. So I chopped it out and
re-did it properly. After that, no improvement or the rate of loss
seemed to get even worse! Even though there is definitely no evidence of
a leak in that location now.

So I checked the PRV drain pipe on the system boiler. That's not letting
by. Checked the drain point tap which is outside - again its dry.

Seems unlikely its the coil in the indirect cylinder since it is an
unvented cylinder, and the water pressure inside it is higher than that
of the CH primary - so if that leaked the CH would fill up!

So I had a careful look about. No indications of staining on the
ceilings, and it seems unlily one could lose that much water by
evaporation from the leak point. so I thought ground floor would be more
likely - there is loads of space in the under floor void where you could
lose water without it showing up anywhere.

However over the last few weeks I managed to get eyes on pretty much all
the GF pipework (sometimes indirectly by bribing second born to climb
through a hole in the floor and romp about in void and look for any
signs of leaks or damp, or corroded looking pipes etc). Got some more
boards up today and looked at the last two rad pipe runs. Again all ok.

Any bright ideas?

Work out where's the hardest bit to get to. It's there.


NT

On 09/03/2019 18:25, John Rumm wrote:

So far all the normal tricks don't seem to be doing it!

Short version:

There is a leak somewhere in my central heating system - its losing
pressure regularly, and needs topping up with at least a couple of
litres a day.

Longer version:

The pipework is of questionable vintage, but I am guessing 30+ years
old. Almost exclusively copper apart from about 3m of speedfit for one
particularly awkward pipe run. Largish S Plan+ system - unvented
cylinder and about 21 rads (split into separate upstairs and downstairs
zones).

The system was pretty good - only needing a small top up at most once or
twice a year. However over the last year its got worse. It got to the
point where it needed a top up every other week or so. So I carefully
checked around any areas where there have been changes in recent times.

I found one radiator tail in the downstairs loo where I had needed to do
a "live" pipework change and had used a cuprofit fitting that was
knocking about in the plumbing kit. That had a very slight indication of
a weep from around the base of the fitting. So I chopped it out and
re-did it properly. After that, no improvement or the rate of loss
seemed to get even worse! Even though there is definitely no evidence of
a leak in that location now.

So I checked the PRV drain pipe on the system boiler. That's not letting
by. Checked the drain point tap which is outside - again its dry.

Seems unlikely its the coil in the indirect cylinder since it is an
unvented cylinder, and the water pressure inside it is higher than that
of the CH primary - so if that leaked the CH would fill up!

So I had a careful look about. No indications of staining on the
ceilings, and it seems unlily one could lose that much water by
evaporation from the leak point. so I thought ground floor would be more
likely - there is loads of space in the under floor void where you could
lose water without it showing up anywhere.

However over the last few weeks I managed to get eyes on pretty much all
the GF pipework (sometimes indirectly by bribing second born to climb
through a hole in the floor and romp about in void and look for any
signs of leaks or damp, or corroded looking pipes etc). Got some more
boards up today and looked at the last two rad pipe runs. Again all ok.

Any bright ideas?


Do you have a means of isolating individual zones - in order to narrow
down the problem area? I'd be surprised if you didn't have strategically
located quarter turn valves for the purpose.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

On Saturday, 9 March 2019 19:56:59 UTC, Roger Mills wrote:
On 09/03/2019 18:25, John Rumm wrote:

So far all the normal tricks don't seem to be doing it!

Short version:

There is a leak somewhere in my central heating system - its losing
pressure regularly, and needs topping up with at least a couple of
litres a day.

Do you have a means of isolating individual zones - in order to narrow
down the problem area? I'd be surprised if you didn't have strategically
located quarter turn valves for the purpose.

all of which have seized beyond all hope.


NT

On 09/03/2019 20:04, wrote:
On Saturday, 9 March 2019 19:56:59 UTC, Roger Mills wrote:
On 09/03/2019 18:25, John Rumm wrote:

So far all the normal tricks don't seem to be doing it!

Short version:

There is a leak somewhere in my central heating system - its losing
pressure regularly, and needs topping up with at least a couple of
litres a day.

Do you have a means of isolating individual zones - in order to narrow
down the problem area? I'd be surprised if you didn't have strategically
located quarter turn valves for the purpose.

all of which have seized beyond all hope.

Your optimism is boundless

On 09/03/2019 20:04, wrote:
On Saturday, 9 March 2019 19:56:59 UTC, Roger Mills wrote:
On 09/03/2019 18:25, John Rumm wrote:

So far all the normal tricks don't seem to be doing it!

Short version:

There is a leak somewhere in my central heating system - its losing
pressure regularly, and needs topping up with at least a couple of
litres a day.

Do you have a means of isolating individual zones - in order to narrow
down the problem area? I'd be surprised if you didn't have strategically
located quarter turn valves for the purpose.

all of which have seized beyond all hope.


If they were gate valves, or even simple service valves, I'd agree - but
that's not what I meant. Full flow quarter turn lever valves don't seize.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

On Saturday, 9 March 2019 18:25:13 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
There is a leak somewhere in my central heating system - its losing
pressure regularly, and needs topping up with at least a couple of
litres a day.

Any bright ideas?

I had a cracked heat exchanger. Because it was a condensing boiler, it happily drained all the leaked water down the condensate pipe.

Could you see whether the boiler appears to be producing condensate even when it's powered off?

Alternatively, can you isolate the boiler and see whether its pressure decreases over time?

On 09/03/2019 19:57, Roger Mills wrote:
On 09/03/2019 18:25, John Rumm wrote:

So far all the normal tricks don't seem to be doing it!

Short version:

There is a leak somewhere in my central heating system - its losing
pressure regularly, and needs topping up with at least a couple of
litres a day.

Longer version:

The pipework is of questionable vintage, but I am guessing 30+ years
old. Almost exclusively copper apart from about 3m of speedfit for one
particularly awkward pipe run. Largish S Plan+ system - unvented
cylinder and about 21 rads (split into separate upstairs and downstairs
zones).

The system was pretty good - only needing a small top up at most once or
twice a year. However over the last year its got worse. It got to the
point where it needed a top up every other week or so. So I carefully
checked around any areas where there have been changes in recent times.

I found one radiator tail in the downstairs loo where I had needed to do
a "live" pipework change and had used a cuprofit fitting that was
knocking about in the plumbing kit. That had a very slight indication of
a weep from around the base of the fitting. So I chopped it out and
re-did it properly. After that, no improvement or the rate of loss
seemed to get even worse! Even though there is definitely no evidence of
a leak in that location now.

So I checked the PRV drain pipe on the system boiler. That's not letting
by. Checked the drain point tap which is outside - again its dry.

Seems unlikely its the coil in the indirect cylinder since it is an
unvented cylinder, and the water pressure inside it is higher than that
of the CH primary - so if that leaked the CH would fill up!

So I had a careful look about. No indications of staining on the
ceilings, and it seems unlily one could lose that much water by
evaporation from the leak point. so I thought ground floor would be more
likely - there is loads of space in the under floor void where you could
lose water without it showing up anywhere.

However over the last few weeks I managed to get eyes on pretty much all
the GF pipework (sometimes indirectly by bribing second born to climb
through a hole in the floor and romp about in void and look for any
signs of leaks or damp, or corroded looking pipes etc). Got some more
boards up today and looked at the last two rad pipe runs. Again all ok.

Any bright ideas?


Do you have a means of isolating individual zones - in order to narrow
down the problem area? I'd be surprised if you didn't have strategically
located quarter turn valves for the purpose.

Alas, I did not install the original system (although I did install the
boiler, hot water tank, and did the zoning and controls).

I know I can easily add isolation for the flow side of each zone - just
after the two port valves. However I am not convinced that I can do the
return at a place that would allow segments to be isolated completely
from each other.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 09/03/2019 21:08, Roger Mills wrote:
On 09/03/2019 20:04, wrote:
On Saturday, 9 March 2019 19:56:59 UTC, Roger MillsÂ* wrote:
On 09/03/2019 18:25, John Rumm wrote:

So far all the normal tricks don't seem to be doing it!

Short version:

There is a leak somewhere in my central heating system - its losing
pressure regularly, and needs topping up with at least a couple of
litres a day.

Do you have a means of isolating individual zones - in order to narrow
down the problem area? I'd be surprised if you didn't have strategically
located quarter turn valves for the purpose.

all of which have seized beyond all hope.


If they were gate valves, or even simple service valves, I'd agree - but
that's not what I meant. Full flow quarter turn lever valves don't seize.

I normally use full bore lever operated or butterfly valves for that
kind of thing. Never had one of those fail yet.

Gate valves on the other hand, its rare to find one that works at all IME!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 09/03/2019 21:49, David wrote:
On Saturday, 9 March 2019 18:25:13 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
There is a leak somewhere in my central heating system - its losing
pressure regularly, and needs topping up with at least a couple of
litres a day.

Any bright ideas?

I had a cracked heat exchanger. Because it was a condensing boiler, it happily drained all the leaked water down the condensate pipe.

Yup I did consider that, and was wondering how to test it without taking
the cover off the combustion chamber...

Could you see whether the boiler appears to be producing condensate even when it's powered off?

Alternatively, can you isolate the boiler and see whether its pressure decreases over time?

Yup, that would probably do it actually. If I take the front cover off
then I can see the internal mechanical pressure gauge (normally the one
you can see from outside is electronic and on the boiler's LCD).


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 09/03/2019 19:14, Thomas Prufer wrote:
On Sat, 9 Mar 2019 18:25:08 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

Any bright ideas?

Fluorescein dye and a UV flashlight?

What type, and where would be a good place to get it (the dye that is, I
have the torch!)?


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Saturday, 9 March 2019 18:25:13 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
So far all the normal tricks don't seem to be doing it!

Short version:

There is a leak somewhere in my central heating system - its losing
pressure regularly, and needs topping up with at least a couple of
litres a day.

Longer version:

The pipework is of questionable vintage, but I am guessing 30+ years
old. Almost exclusively copper apart from about 3m of speedfit for one
particularly awkward pipe run. Largish S Plan+ system - unvented
cylinder and about 21 rads (split into separate upstairs and downstairs
zones).

The system was pretty good - only needing a small top up at most once or
twice a year. However over the last year its got worse. It got to the
point where it needed a top up every other week or so. So I carefully
checked around any areas where there have been changes in recent times.

I found one radiator tail in the downstairs loo where I had needed to do
a "live" pipework change and had used a cuprofit fitting that was
knocking about in the plumbing kit. That had a very slight indication of
a weep from around the base of the fitting. So I chopped it out and
re-did it properly. After that, no improvement or the rate of loss
seemed to get even worse! Even though there is definitely no evidence of
a leak in that location now.

So I checked the PRV drain pipe on the system boiler. That's not letting
by. Checked the drain point tap which is outside - again its dry.

Seems unlikely its the coil in the indirect cylinder since it is an
unvented cylinder, and the water pressure inside it is higher than that
of the CH primary - so if that leaked the CH would fill up!

So I had a careful look about. No indications of staining on the
ceilings, and it seems unlily one could lose that much water by
evaporation from the leak point. so I thought ground floor would be more
likely - there is loads of space in the under floor void where you could
lose water without it showing up anywhere.

However over the last few weeks I managed to get eyes on pretty much all
the GF pipework (sometimes indirectly by bribing second born to climb
through a hole in the floor and romp about in void and look for any
signs of leaks or damp, or corroded looking pipes etc). Got some more
boards up today and looked at the last two rad pipe runs. Again all ok.

Any bright ideas?

Leak on heat exchanger of boiler itself.
They can leak only when it's firing/hot.
Water evaporates so not necessarily any drips.


Tie plastic bags over PRV vents, it only leaks as water heats up.
And when it's topped up.

Does it lose water when not running?
(Clue to above)

On 09/03/2019 20:31, Richard wrote:
On 09/03/2019 20:04, wrote:
On Saturday, 9 March 2019 19:56:59 UTC, Roger MillsÂ* wrote:
On 09/03/2019 18:25, John Rumm wrote:

So far all the normal tricks don't seem to be doing it!

Short version:

There is a leak somewhere in my central heating system - its losing
pressure regularly, and needs topping up with at least a couple of
litres a day.

Do you have a means of isolating individual zones - in order to narrow
down the problem area? I'd be surprised if you didn't have strategically
located quarter turn valves for the purpose.

all of which have seized beyond all hope.

Your optimism is boundless

I installed full bore isolating lever valves for each section, in part
because I installed the system in stages over a year. By about 2 years
later, they were all seized on. These valves only work if exercised
regularly. The two that came with the boiler's system kit did seem to
last significantly longer, so it could be a quality issue.

--
Andrew

Also is there any way to isolate a zone?

I rremember in a friends house about ten years ago, I walked into an
upstairs room and said, it smells like fresh plumbing in here. IE I cannot
describe it, but there is a smell of dampness and something like a coppery
tinge to it.
There was a tiny pinhole in a pipe to the radiator there. It semmed to be
almost like steam. Weird, as I do not see how one can get a pin hole in a
pipe. Still that sort of problem has always put me off of central heating
since.
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Paul Welsh" wrote in message
...
On 09/03/2019 18:25, John Rumm wrote:

Any bright ideas?


I cut strips of kitchen paper and tie it around every possible leaking
joint.

I live in a hard water area so even if the water evaporates I get calcium
deposits after a few weeks or months, these can be felt by the paper going
slightly hard and discoloured.

Two litres sounds a lot. How do you measure it?

On Sunday, 10 March 2019 08:29:20 UTC, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
On 09/03/2019 20:31, Richard wrote:
On 09/03/2019 20:04, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 9 March 2019 19:56:59 UTC, Roger MillsÂ* wrote:
On 09/03/2019 18:25, John Rumm wrote:

So far all the normal tricks don't seem to be doing it!

Short version:

There is a leak somewhere in my central heating system - its losing
pressure regularly, and needs topping up with at least a couple of
litres a day.

Do you have a means of isolating individual zones - in order to narrow
down the problem area? I'd be surprised if you didn't have strategically
located quarter turn valves for the purpose.

all of which have seized beyond all hope.

Your optimism is boundless

I installed full bore isolating lever valves for each section, in part
because I installed the system in stages over a year. By about 2 years
later, they were all seized on. These valves only work if exercised
regularly. The two that came with the boiler's system kit did seem to
last significantly longer, so it could be a quality issue.

I changed a pump on a 30-40 year old system and was shocked to discover that one of the ball valves to isolate the pump still worked. Of course the other one didn't.


NT

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message ...

Also is there any way to isolate a zone?

I rremember in a friends house about ten years ago, I walked into an
upstairs room and said, it smells like fresh plumbing in here. IE I cannot
describe it, but there is a smell of dampness and something like a coppery
tinge to it.
There was a tiny pinhole in a pipe to the radiator there. It semmed to be
almost like steam. Weird, as I do not see how one can get a pin hole in a
pipe. Still that sort of problem has always put me off of central heating
since.
Brian


I once owned a flat (over one of my launderettes) where pin holes kept
appearing in 1/2" (not 15 mm) cold water pipes. Happened several times so
eventually we changed the pipes. Installed mid 1960's I suspect but could
have been as late as mid 1970's. It was a hard water area.

Andrew

On 10/03/2019 08:29, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
On 09/03/2019 20:31, Richard wrote:
On 09/03/2019 20:04, wrote:
On Saturday, 9 March 2019 19:56:59 UTC, Roger MillsÂ* wrote:
On 09/03/2019 18:25, John Rumm wrote:

So far all the normal tricks don't seem to be doing it!

Short version:

There is a leak somewhere in my central heating system - its losing
pressure regularly, and needs topping up with at least a couple of
litres a day.

Do you have a means of isolating individual zones - in order to narrow
down the problem area? I'd be surprised if you didn't have
strategically
located quarter turn valves for the purpose.

all of which have seized beyond all hope.

Your optimism is boundless

I installed full bore isolating lever valves for each section, in part
because I installed the system in stages over a year. By about 2 years
later, they were all seized on. These valves only work if exercised
regularly. The two that came with the boiler's system kit did seem to
last significantly longer, so it could be a quality issue.

I've had more problems from ball valves leaking at te gland than from
any other type.

Eventually they scale up again.


--
If I had all the money I've spent on drink...
...I'd spend it on drink.

Sir Henry (at Rawlinson's End)

In message , John
Rumm writes
On 09/03/2019 18:44, Paul Welsh wrote:
On 09/03/2019 18:25, John Rumm wrote:

Any bright ideas?


I cut strips of kitchen paper and tie it around every possible
leaking joint.
I live in a hard water area so even if the water evaporates I get
calcium deposits after a few weeks or months, these can be felt by the
paper going slightly hard and discoloured.

Handy tip, ta.

Two litres sounds a lot. How do you measure it?

I can't directly - I can only estimate by how long I turn the filling
loop on to restore the pressure, and compare that time with filling a
container at the kitchen tap. We have high water pressure (~6 bar), so
it can shift a fair amount in a few seconds.

Umm. I suspect the valves on the filling loop are small bore leading to
lots of noise.

You could unhitch and fill a container to get an actual.

Nevertheless, it does sound to be a significant amount of water going
somewhere. I thought I had fixed mine when an auto air bleed literally
fell off the attachment thread! Pre-fixed to the manifold so likely
transport or installation damage. However, the system has now gone back
to losing a *needle thickness* per day with no visible signs. Fully
carpeted/tiled. Clearly with a manifold system I can isolate sections
relatively easily when the Tuits line up. Meanwhile my guess is the
screed over block and beam where a screeders shovel may have damaged a
pipe and any subsequent leak invisible.



--
Tim Lamb

On Sat, 9 Mar 2019 13:49:48 -0800 (PST), David
wrote:

On Saturday, 9 March 2019 18:25:13 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
There is a leak somewhere in my central heating system - its losing
pressure regularly, and needs topping up with at least a couple of
litres a day.

Any bright ideas?

I had a cracked heat exchanger. Because it was a condensing boiler, it happily drained all the leaked water down the condensate pipe.

Could you see whether the boiler appears to be producing condensate even when it's powered off?

Alternatively, can you isolate the boiler and see whether its pressure decreases over time?

I had a similar problem with a boiler with an aluminium heat exchanger
corroding severely over time (Only about 10 years). Found where the
problem was when one day it was all quiet in the kitchen and I heard
the trickling water out of the condensate drain when the boiler was
off. (I have some interesting photos of the dead heat exchanger if
anyone wants some teaching material for plumbers.)

The filling loop will sound like it is passing a lot of water - but it is
pushing against some back pressure.

On 09/03/2019 19:17, John Rumm wrote:
On 09/03/2019 18:44, Paul Welsh wrote:
On 09/03/2019 18:25, John Rumm wrote:

Any bright ideas?


I cut strips of kitchen paper and tie it around every possible leaking
joint.

I live in a hard water area so even if the water evaporates I get
calcium deposits after a few weeks or months, these can be felt by the
paper going slightly hard and discoloured.

Handy tip, ta.

Two litres sounds a lot. How do you measure it?

I can't directly - I can only estimate by how long I turn the filling
loop on to restore the pressure, and compare that time with filling a
container at the kitchen tap. We have high water pressure (~6 bar), so
it can shift a fair amount in a few seconds.



Water meter? Ours has a 1 pulse/litre which would give a cross-check
when averaged over a few days.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 10/03/2019 10:36, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , John
Rumm writes
On 09/03/2019 18:44, Paul Welsh wrote:
On 09/03/2019 18:25, John Rumm wrote:

Any bright ideas?


I cut strips of kitchen paper and tie it around every possible
leakingÂ* joint.
Â*I live in a hard water area so even if the water evaporates I get
calcium deposits after a few weeks or months, these can be felt by
the paper going slightly hard and discoloured.

Handy tip, ta.

Two litres sounds a lot. How do you measure it?

I can't directly - I can only estimate by how long I turn the filling
loop on to restore the pressure, and compare that time with filling a
container at the kitchen tap. We have high water pressure (~6 bar), so
it can shift a fair amount in a few seconds.

Umm. I suspect the valves on the filling loop are small bore leading to
lots of noise.

They are typical service valve size. When fully open the fill runs quietly.

You could unhitch and fill a container to get an actual.

Indeed I could...

Although the exact quantity in this case is not really the problem!

Nevertheless, it does sound to be a significant amount of water going
somewhere. I thought I had fixed mine when an auto air bleed literally
fell off the attachment thread! Pre-fixed to the manifold so likely
transport or installation damage. However, the system has now gone back
to losing a *needle thickness* per day with no visible signs. Fully
carpeted/tiled. Clearly with a manifold system I can isolate sections
relatively easily when the Tuits line up. Meanwhile my guess is the
screed over block and beam where a screeders shovel may have damaged a
pipe and any subsequent leak invisible.

Yup UFH with a leak can be a right pain to fix.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 10/03/2019 11:31, Robin wrote:
On 09/03/2019 19:17, John Rumm wrote:
On 09/03/2019 18:44, Paul Welsh wrote:
On 09/03/2019 18:25, John Rumm wrote:

Any bright ideas?


I cut strips of kitchen paper and tie it around every possible
leaking joint.

I live in a hard water area so even if the water evaporates I get
calcium deposits after a few weeks or months, these can be felt by
the paper going slightly hard and discoloured.

Handy tip, ta.

Two litres sounds a lot. How do you measure it?

I can't directly - I can only estimate by how long I turn the filling
loop on to restore the pressure, and compare that time with filling a
container at the kitchen tap. We have high water pressure (~6 bar), so
it can shift a fair amount in a few seconds.



Water meter?Â* Ours has a 1 pulse/litre which would give a cross-check
when averaged over a few days.

No meter. I could unhitch the end of the filling loop hose and time it
into a container if I wanted. However that does really seem to be
focussing on the wrong problem.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 10/03/2019 09:46, Andrew Mawson wrote:
"Brian Gaff"* wrote in message ...

Also is there any way to isolate a zone?

I rremember in a friends house about ten years ago, I walked into an
upstairs room and said, it smells like fresh plumbing in here. IE I
cannot describe it, but there is a smell of dampness and something
like a coppery tinge to it.
There was a tiny pinhole in a pipe* to the radiator there. It semmed
to be almost like steam. Weird, as I do not see how one can get a pin
hole in a pipe. Still that sort of problem has always put me off of
central heating since.
Brian


I once owned a flat (over one of my launderettes) where pin holes kept
appearing in 1/2" (not 15 mm) cold water pipes. Happened several times
so eventually we changed the pipes. Installed mid 1960's I suspect but
could have been as late as mid 1970's. It was a hard water area.

ISTR a recent BigClive video on YouTube where he dissected a bit of pipe
he cut out of his system that had sprung a pinhole leak. There were
clear spots of corrosion inside the pipe where it was thinning.

Yup, here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDF3qRLw7CM



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 10/03/2019 11:18, DerbyBorn wrote:

The filling loop will sound like it is passing a lot of water - but it is
pushing against some back pressure.

Its still got a 4 - 5 bar advantage over what is in the system (system
pressure say 0.6 bar when I start refilling, mains pressure 6 bar).


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sat, 9 Mar 2019 22:26:13 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

What type, and where would be a good place to get it (the dye that is, I
have the torch!)?

"fluorescein dye" in eBay... coupla quid, it's a orangey yellow.

A very very little goes a very long way! Found on eBay: "Typically 1 gram of
fluorescein LTC powder will successfully colour change 1 ton of water."


Thomas Prufer

On 10/03/2019 12:48, John Rumm wrote:
On 10/03/2019 11:31, Robin wrote:
On 09/03/2019 19:17, John Rumm wrote:
On 09/03/2019 18:44, Paul Welsh wrote:
On 09/03/2019 18:25, John Rumm wrote:

Any bright ideas?


I cut strips of kitchen paper and tie it around every possible
leaking joint.

I live in a hard water area so even if the water evaporates I get
calcium deposits after a few weeks or months, these can be felt by
the paper going slightly hard and discoloured.

Handy tip, ta.

Two litres sounds a lot. How do you measure it?

I can't directly - I can only estimate by how long I turn the filling
loop on to restore the pressure, and compare that time with filling a
container at the kitchen tap. We have high water pressure (~6 bar),
so it can shift a fair amount in a few seconds.



Water meter?Â* Ours has a 1 pulse/litre which would give a cross-check
when averaged over a few days.

No meter. I could unhitch the end of the filling loop hose and time it
into a container if I wanted. However that does really seem to be
focussing on the wrong problem.


I just thought that if it turned out to be a lot less then a couple of
litres it'd be less to worry about. Anyhow, I realise now a check on
the amount is probably a lot easier: note the pressure before filling;
then after filling drain into a container to get back to the initial mark.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 10/03/2019 07:55, harry wrote:
On Saturday, 9 March 2019 18:25:13 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
So far all the normal tricks don't seem to be doing it!

Short version:

There is a leak somewhere in my central heating system - its losing
pressure regularly, and needs topping up with at least a couple of
litres a day.

Any bright ideas?

Leak on heat exchanger of boiler itself.
They can leak only when it's firing/hot.
Water evaporates so not necessarily any drips.

A leak into the combustion chamber is possible. The outside however it
spotlessly clean.

I will introduce a pressure valve into the pipework separate from the
boiler's internal one, then I can isolate the boiler form its pipework
and see if I can eliminate one or the other.

Tie plastic bags over PRV vents, it only leaks as water heats up.
And when it's topped up.

Already tried that.

Does it lose water when not running?

Its not usually off for long enough at this time of year.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 10/03/2019 12:56, Robin wrote:
On 10/03/2019 12:48, John Rumm wrote:
On 10/03/2019 11:31, Robin wrote:
On 09/03/2019 19:17, John Rumm wrote:
On 09/03/2019 18:44, Paul Welsh wrote:
On 09/03/2019 18:25, John Rumm wrote:

Any bright ideas?


I cut strips of kitchen paper and tie it around every possible
leaking joint.

I live in a hard water area so even if the water evaporates I get
calcium deposits after a few weeks or months, these can be felt by
the paper going slightly hard and discoloured.

Handy tip, ta.

Two litres sounds a lot. How do you measure it?

I can't directly - I can only estimate by how long I turn the
filling loop on to restore the pressure, and compare that time with
filling a container at the kitchen tap. We have high water pressure
(~6 bar), so it can shift a fair amount in a few seconds.



Water meter?Â* Ours has a 1 pulse/litre which would give a cross-check
when averaged over a few days.

No meter. I could unhitch the end of the filling loop hose and time it
into a container if I wanted. However that does really seem to be
focussing on the wrong problem.


I just thought that if it turned out to be a lot less then a couple of
litres it'd be less to worry about.Â* Anyhow, I realise now a check on
the amount is probably a lot easier: note the pressure before filling;
then after filling drain into a container to get back to the initial mark.

That would work (although I would need to drain from elsewhere, since
the filling loop connection has a non return valve on it).


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 10/03/2019 12:54, Thomas Prufer wrote:
On Sat, 9 Mar 2019 22:26:13 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

What type, and where would be a good place to get it (the dye that is, I
have the torch!)?

"fluorescein dye" in eBay... coupla quid, it's a orangey yellow.

A very very little goes a very long way! Found on eBay: "Typically 1 gram of
fluorescein LTC powder will successfully colour change 1 ton of water."

Ta, ordered some...


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article 64bd3d97-eb36-4dd5-baf8-8ed05fe92208
@googlegroups.com, says...


Leak on heat exchanger of boiler itself.
They can leak only when it's firing/hot.
Water evaporates so not necessarily any drips.


Fill plastic bags with cold water - possibly place in the
freezer for a while to ensure they are really cold - and
hang/place them anywhere that the water vapour might escape
and watch for tell-tale condensation


--

Terry

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

I had a leak in a pressurised system in a 3 storey office block in Leeds. Same problem and couldn't find it so I injected a couple of containers of Fernox MB1.
A couple of weeks later an unusual smell was reported in a small office in the ground floor. The leak was a weeping screwed ms elbow joint under the floor below the radiator.
It was resolved by freezing, stripping out and reassembly using hemp and bosswhite.
End of problem.

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
Also is there any way to isolate a zone?

I rremember in a friends house about ten years ago, I walked into an
upstairs room and said, it smells like fresh plumbing in here. IE I cannot
describe it, but there is a smell of dampness and something like a coppery
tinge to it.
There was a tiny pinhole in a pipe to the radiator there. It semmed to be
almost like steam. Weird, as I do not see how one can get a pin hole in a
pipe.

There was a rash of that with copper pipe in the early 70s, the way it was
manufactured.

Still that sort of problem has always put me off of central heating

Yeah, I prefer air systems rather than water.

"Paul Welsh" wrote in message
...
On 09/03/2019 18:25, John Rumm wrote:

Any bright ideas?


I cut strips of kitchen paper and tie it around every possible leaking
joint.

I live in a hard water area so even if the water evaporates I get calcium
deposits after a few weeks or months, these can be felt by the paper
going slightly hard and discoloured.

Two litres sounds a lot. How do you measure it?

On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 07:35:15 +1100, cantankerous trolling senile geezer Rot
Speed blabbered, again:



Yeah, I prefer air systems rather than water.

Most people would prefer you to shut your stupid senile gob finally, senile
Rot!

--
pamela about Rot Speed:
"His off the cuff expertise demonstrates how little he knows..."
MID:

The Natural Philosopher Wrote in message:
On 10/03/2019 08:29, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
On 09/03/2019 20:31, Richard wrote:
On 09/03/2019 20:04, wrote:
On Saturday, 9 March 2019 19:56:59 UTC, Roger Mills wrote:
On 09/03/2019 18:25, John Rumm wrote:

So far all the normal tricks don't seem to be doing it!

Short version:

There is a leak somewhere in my central heating system - its losing
pressure regularly, and needs topping up with at least a couple of
litres a day.

Do you have a means of isolating individual zones - in order to narrow
down the problem area? I'd be surprised if you didn't have
strategically
located quarter turn valves for the purpose.

all of which have seized beyond all hope.

Your optimism is boundless

I installed full bore isolating lever valves for each section, in part
because I installed the system in stages over a year. By about 2 years
later, they were all seized on. These valves only work if exercised
regularly. The two that came with the boiler's system kit did seem to
last significantly longer, so it could be a quality issue.

I've had more problems from ball valves leaking at te gland than from
any other type.

Bit of folded bike inner tube + jubilee clip = sorted for years...


--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

Terry Casey Wrote in message:
In article 64bd3d97-eb36-4dd5-baf8-8ed05fe92208
@googlegroups.com, says...


Leak on heat exchanger of boiler itself.
They can leak only when it's firing/hot.
Water evaporates so not necessarily any drips.


Fill plastic bags with cold water - possibly place in the
freezer for a while to ensure they are really cold - and
hang/place them anywhere that the water vapour might escape
and watch for tell-tale condensation



Is that from Viz? :-)
--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

John Rumm wrote:
So far all the normal tricks don't seem to be doing it!

Short version:

There is a leak somewhere in my central heating system - its losing
pressure regularly, and needs topping up with at least a couple of
litres a day.

Snip. Not being rude.
I was losing water. The loop valve was not turned off properly, even though
it looked okay.