UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,236
Default Another combi boiler hot water question

I've been trying to understand what happens with the hot water when my
wife screams that it has gone cold in the shower so I watched it the
other day.

Turn shower on, burner comes on, led lights (Baxi 105HE) start to
light up to a maximum. Everything fine for a few minutes then the
burner turns off, leds go back, and wife screams. Burner comes back
on - repeat and rinse.

Shouldn't the burner flame just adjust to maintain the temperature
rather than cut-out? Obvious behaviour of the CH but not for DHW.

Otherwise is this indicative of a thermistor problem with hysterisis
or similar? Is it easy to replace?




--
AnthonyL
  #2   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 690
Default Another combi boiler hot water question

On 08/03/2019 12:24, AnthonyL wrote:
I've been trying to understand what happens with the hot water when my
wife screams that it has gone cold in the shower so I watched it the
other day.

Turn shower on, burner comes on, led lights (Baxi 105HE) start to
light up to a maximum. Everything fine for a few minutes then the
burner turns off, leds go back, and wife screams. Burner comes back
on - repeat and rinse.

Shouldn't the burner flame just adjust to maintain the temperature
rather than cut-out? Obvious behaviour of the CH but not for DHW.

Otherwise is this indicative of a thermistor problem with hysterisis
or similar? Is it easy to replace?


Has it always done this? As a mere user of the Baxi 105HE, not an
engineer thereof, I'm wondering where the CH & Hot Water temperature
knobs are set? Mine are set so the temperature never quite goes up to 70
(I was told to do this to reduce limescale deposits though I don't know
if that really works.) I never have any thermal cutout problems.

Hope this helps,

Nick

  #3   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,034
Default Another combi boiler hot water question

On 08/03/2019 12:24, AnthonyL wrote:
I've been trying to understand what happens with the hot water when my
wife screams that it has gone cold in the shower so I watched it the
other day.

Turn shower on, burner comes on, led lights (Baxi 105HE) start to
light up to a maximum. Everything fine for a few minutes then the
burner turns off, leds go back, and wife screams. Burner comes back
on - repeat and rinse.

Shouldn't the burner flame just adjust to maintain the temperature
rather than cut-out? Obvious behaviour of the CH but not for DHW.

Otherwise is this indicative of a thermistor problem with hysterisis
or similar? Is it easy to replace?

When my oil fired combi went wrong I did think that with four multiple
terminal relays it is to complicated for its own good. What I would
quite like is a series of LEDs on the front panel that show the status
of the relays, thermostats and other sensors. I was surprised to
discover that it does not appear to care about the pressure in the
central heating (and internal hot water tank) system.

--
Michael Chare
  #4   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,564
Default Another combi boiler hot water question

On Friday, 8 March 2019 12:24:34 UTC, AnthonyL wrote:
Turn shower on, burner comes on, led lights (Baxi 105HE) start to
light up to a maximum. Everything fine for a few minutes then the
burner turns off, leds go back, and wife screams. Burner comes back
on - repeat and rinse.


It depends on combination of the boiler and the type of shower mixer. If the shower throttles back the flow of hot the temp rises and eventually the boiler will cut out.

Some thermostatic mixers and some combis play nicely together, others fight.

Owain

  #6   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,019
Default Another combi boiler hot water question

On 08/03/2019 12:24, AnthonyL wrote:
I've been trying to understand what happens with the hot water when my
wife screams that it has gone cold in the shower so I watched it the
other day.

Turn shower on, burner comes on, led lights (Baxi 105HE) start to
light up to a maximum. Everything fine for a few minutes then the
burner turns off, leds go back, and wife screams. Burner comes back
on - repeat and rinse.

Shouldn't the burner flame just adjust to maintain the temperature
rather than cut-out? Obvious behaviour of the CH but not for DHW.

Otherwise is this indicative of a thermistor problem with hysterisis
or similar? Is it easy to replace?




I had that sort of problem from new with both a Vaillant and a Halstead,
admittedly in an older and rambling house with longish pipe runs. Given
up and gone to a proper system boiler.

Some friends have a small holiday cottage that we use occasionally, this
is a new compact house with very direct pipe runs and the shower is
flawless, even with other demand on the small combi.
  #7   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,175
Default Another combi boiler hot water question

On 08/03/2019 12:24, AnthonyL wrote:
I've been trying to understand what happens with the hot water when my
wife screams that it has gone cold in the shower so I watched it the
other day.

Turn shower on, burner comes on, led lights (Baxi 105HE) start to
light up to a maximum. Everything fine for a few minutes then the
burner turns off, leds go back, and wife screams. Burner comes back
on - repeat and rinse.

Shouldn't the burner flame just adjust to maintain the temperature
rather than cut-out? Obvious behaviour of the CH but not for DHW.

Otherwise is this indicative of a thermistor problem with hysterisis
or similar? Is it easy to replace?


I've seen this when the secondary plate exchanger was scaled up.
Boiler would throttle the burner back, but when the plate exchanger gets
so bad it can't conduct the minimum burner power through the lime scale,
then the burner ends up cycling on and off.

You might get a short improvement by turning the hot water temperature
to max, as a higher temperature differential will enable more power to
be passed through and it might be able to handle the full min burner
power without cycling, but this will also scale up the plate exchanger
faster, so it's only a very short term fix.

I took the plate exchanger out and descaled it. It required an enormous
amount of descaler - fortunately I had a 2kg tub of Furnox DS-3, and it
took quite a while. A plumber would probably just replace the plate
exchanger.

--
Andrew
  #8   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 25,191
Default Another combi boiler hot water question

On 08/03/2019 12:24, AnthonyL wrote:
I've been trying to understand what happens with the hot water when my
wife screams that it has gone cold in the shower so I watched it the
other day.

Turn shower on, burner comes on, led lights (Baxi 105HE) start to
light up to a maximum. Everything fine for a few minutes then the
burner turns off, leds go back, and wife screams. Burner comes back
on - repeat and rinse.

Shouldn't the burner flame just adjust to maintain the temperature
rather than cut-out? Obvious behaviour of the CH but not for DHW.

Otherwise is this indicative of a thermistor problem with hysterisis
or similar? Is it easy to replace?


If we assume for the moment that the boiler is working as it should then
there is a likely cause that could result from the boiler DHW
temperature going over the set point.

IIUC, your Baxi does not have any form of flow regulation. So all it can
do in response to varying DHW flow rates is modulate its burner output.

So normally you set a temperature, say 60 deg, and the boiler will
attempt to deliver water at that temp.

If you are drawing DHW at a high rate, then its unlikely to have the
power to reach that temp - and so the temp will fall below the max.

If however draw at a low rate, then it will have to modulate its burner
output power down to prevent the temperature exceeding the limit. If it
can't keep under the limit even at minimum burner power, then it will
start to cycle the burner.

You can test this theory, but running the shower as normal, but by
adding some extra demand - say running the hot tap in the basin to
increase the DHW flow rate a bit.

If that stops the burner cycling, then you may be able to fix the
problem simply by increasing the max DHW temp on the boiler (the TMV on
the shower should keep the person in there safe). If that still does not
do it, then you may need to change the shower head for a more "thirsty"
one, or use the basin tap trick for every shower.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/
  #9   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,364
Default Another combi boiler hot water question

On Friday, 8 March 2019 18:19:00 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 08/03/2019 12:24, AnthonyL wrote:
I've been trying to understand what happens with the hot water when my
wife screams that it has gone cold in the shower so I watched it the
other day.

Turn shower on, burner comes on, led lights (Baxi 105HE) start to
light up to a maximum. Everything fine for a few minutes then the
burner turns off, leds go back, and wife screams. Burner comes back
on - repeat and rinse.

Shouldn't the burner flame just adjust to maintain the temperature
rather than cut-out? Obvious behaviour of the CH but not for DHW.

Otherwise is this indicative of a thermistor problem with hysterisis
or similar? Is it easy to replace?


If we assume for the moment that the boiler is working as it should then
there is a likely cause that could result from the boiler DHW
temperature going over the set point.

IIUC, your Baxi does not have any form of flow regulation. So all it can
do in response to varying DHW flow rates is modulate its burner output.

So normally you set a temperature, say 60 deg, and the boiler will
attempt to deliver water at that temp.

If you are drawing DHW at a high rate, then its unlikely to have the
power to reach that temp - and so the temp will fall below the max.

If however draw at a low rate, then it will have to modulate its burner
output power down to prevent the temperature exceeding the limit. If it
can't keep under the limit even at minimum burner power, then it will
start to cycle the burner.

You can test this theory, but running the shower as normal, but by
adding some extra demand - say running the hot tap in the basin to
increase the DHW flow rate a bit.

If that stops the burner cycling, then you may be able to fix the
problem simply by increasing the max DHW temp on the boiler (the TMV on
the shower should keep the person in there safe). If that still does not
do it, then you may need to change the shower head for a more "thirsty"
one, or use the basin tap trick for every shower.


the funny thing is these things are marketed as energy saving


NT
  #10   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,048
Default Another combi boiler hot water question

On Fri, 8 Mar 2019 18:18:50 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

If that still does not
do it, then you may need to change the shower head for a more "thirsty"
one, or use the basin tap trick for every shower.


Or --depending on your water-- descale the shower head...


Thomas Prufer


  #11   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,236
Default Another combi boiler hot water question

On Fri, 8 Mar 2019 13:06:28 +0000, Nick Odell
wrote:

On 08/03/2019 12:24, AnthonyL wrote:
I've been trying to understand what happens with the hot water when my
wife screams that it has gone cold in the shower so I watched it the
other day.

Turn shower on, burner comes on, led lights (Baxi 105HE) start to
light up to a maximum. Everything fine for a few minutes then the
burner turns off, leds go back, and wife screams. Burner comes back
on - repeat and rinse.

Shouldn't the burner flame just adjust to maintain the temperature
rather than cut-out? Obvious behaviour of the CH but not for DHW.

Otherwise is this indicative of a thermistor problem with hysterisis
or similar? Is it easy to replace?


Has it always done this? As a mere user of the Baxi 105HE, not an
engineer thereof, I'm wondering where the CH & Hot Water temperature
knobs are set? Mine are set so the temperature never quite goes up to 70
(I was told to do this to reduce limescale deposits though I don't know
if that really works.) I never have any thermal cutout problems.


I had some problem a few months ago that led me to deduce that having
the knob set too low appeared to be causing cut out. I was set to
about 2 'o' clock, I'm now on about 4 'o' clock. 6 'o' clock ie
vertically down seems to be the max. I'll wind it back a notch or two
and see what happens but I'm definitely hitting max temp at the
current setting.

--
AnthonyL
  #13   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,236
Default Another combi boiler hot water question

On Fri, 8 Mar 2019 16:22:03 +0000, newshound
wrote:

On 08/03/2019 12:24, AnthonyL wrote:
I've been trying to understand what happens with the hot water when my
wife screams that it has gone cold in the shower so I watched it the
other day.

Turn shower on, burner comes on, led lights (Baxi 105HE) start to
light up to a maximum. Everything fine for a few minutes then the
burner turns off, leds go back, and wife screams. Burner comes back
on - repeat and rinse.

Shouldn't the burner flame just adjust to maintain the temperature
rather than cut-out? Obvious behaviour of the CH but not for DHW.

Otherwise is this indicative of a thermistor problem with hysterisis
or similar? Is it easy to replace?




I had that sort of problem from new with both a Vaillant and a Halstead,
admittedly in an older and rambling house with longish pipe runs. Given
up and gone to a proper system boiler.


I thought the Vaillant was a proper system boiler?

--
AnthonyL
  #14   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,236
Default Another combi boiler hot water question

On Fri, 8 Mar 2019 16:30:09 +0000, Andrew Gabriel
wrote:

On 08/03/2019 12:24, AnthonyL wrote:
I've been trying to understand what happens with the hot water when my
wife screams that it has gone cold in the shower so I watched it the
other day.

Turn shower on, burner comes on, led lights (Baxi 105HE) start to
light up to a maximum. Everything fine for a few minutes then the
burner turns off, leds go back, and wife screams. Burner comes back
on - repeat and rinse.

Shouldn't the burner flame just adjust to maintain the temperature
rather than cut-out? Obvious behaviour of the CH but not for DHW.

Otherwise is this indicative of a thermistor problem with hysterisis
or similar? Is it easy to replace?


I've seen this when the secondary plate exchanger was scaled up.
Boiler would throttle the burner back, but when the plate exchanger gets
so bad it can't conduct the minimum burner power through the lime scale,
then the burner ends up cycling on and off.

You might get a short improvement by turning the hot water temperature
to max, as a higher temperature differential will enable more power to
be passed through and it might be able to handle the full min burner
power without cycling, but this will also scale up the plate exchanger
faster, so it's only a very short term fix.

I took the plate exchanger out and descaled it. It required an enormous
amount of descaler - fortunately I had a 2kg tub of Furnox DS-3, and it
took quite a while. A plumber would probably just replace the plate
exchanger.


Makes sense. Just a bit of a limit on what I should spend on a 2006
built boiler perhaps. Needed a new diverter valve 18 months ago.

--
AnthonyL
  #15   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,236
Default Another combi boiler hot water question

On Fri, 8 Mar 2019 18:18:50 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 08/03/2019 12:24, AnthonyL wrote:
I've been trying to understand what happens with the hot water when my
wife screams that it has gone cold in the shower so I watched it the
other day.

Turn shower on, burner comes on, led lights (Baxi 105HE) start to
light up to a maximum. Everything fine for a few minutes then the
burner turns off, leds go back, and wife screams. Burner comes back
on - repeat and rinse.

Shouldn't the burner flame just adjust to maintain the temperature
rather than cut-out? Obvious behaviour of the CH but not for DHW.

Otherwise is this indicative of a thermistor problem with hysterisis
or similar? Is it easy to replace?


If we assume for the moment that the boiler is working as it should then
there is a likely cause that could result from the boiler DHW
temperature going over the set point.


It's working as well as I can tell for the CH.

IIUC, your Baxi does not have any form of flow regulation. So all it can
do in response to varying DHW flow rates is modulate its burner output.

So normally you set a temperature, say 60 deg, and the boiler will
attempt to deliver water at that temp.

If you are drawing DHW at a high rate, then its unlikely to have the
power to reach that temp - and so the temp will fall below the max.


That I'd be happy with as even though the water will not get very hot
it is simply a matter of turning the shower knob anticlockwise to
reduce the amount of cold. As stated the problem is when the burner
goes out.

If however draw at a low rate, then it will have to modulate its burner
output power down to prevent the temperature exceeding the limit. If it
can't keep under the limit even at minimum burner power, then it will
start to cycle the burner.


That's what seems to be happening.

You can test this theory, but running the shower as normal, but by
adding some extra demand - say running the hot tap in the basin to
increase the DHW flow rate a bit.


Good point. I'll give that a go.

If that stops the burner cycling, then you may be able to fix the
problem simply by increasing the max DHW temp on the boiler (the TMV on
the shower should keep the person in there safe).


No TMV afaia, simply turn anticlockwise to reduce the cold water.

If that still does not
do it, then you may need to change the shower head for a more "thirsty"
one, or use the basin tap trick for every shower.


Interesting, I'm wondering now when I did change the shower head
because my wife found the other one too gentle. But that is probably
the opposite to what you are proposing.


--
AnthonyL


  #16   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 25,191
Default Another combi boiler hot water question

On 09/03/2019 13:50, AnthonyL wrote:
On Fri, 8 Mar 2019 18:18:50 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 08/03/2019 12:24, AnthonyL wrote:
I've been trying to understand what happens with the hot water when my
wife screams that it has gone cold in the shower so I watched it the
other day.

Turn shower on, burner comes on, led lights (Baxi 105HE) start to
light up to a maximum. Everything fine for a few minutes then the
burner turns off, leds go back, and wife screams. Burner comes back
on - repeat and rinse.

Shouldn't the burner flame just adjust to maintain the temperature
rather than cut-out? Obvious behaviour of the CH but not for DHW.

Otherwise is this indicative of a thermistor problem with hysterisis
or similar? Is it easy to replace?


If we assume for the moment that the boiler is working as it should then
there is a likely cause that could result from the boiler DHW
temperature going over the set point.


It's working as well as I can tell for the CH.

IIUC, your Baxi does not have any form of flow regulation. So all it can
do in response to varying DHW flow rates is modulate its burner output.

So normally you set a temperature, say 60 deg, and the boiler will
attempt to deliver water at that temp.

If you are drawing DHW at a high rate, then its unlikely to have the
power to reach that temp - and so the temp will fall below the max.


That I'd be happy with as even though the water will not get very hot
it is simply a matter of turning the shower knob anticlockwise to
reduce the amount of cold. As stated the problem is when the burner
goes out.


Yup, just including the description for completeness.


If however draw at a low rate, then it will have to modulate its burner
output power down to prevent the temperature exceeding the limit. If it
can't keep under the limit even at minimum burner power, then it will
start to cycle the burner.


That's what seems to be happening.

You can test this theory, but running the shower as normal, but by
adding some extra demand - say running the hot tap in the basin to
increase the DHW flow rate a bit.


Good point. I'll give that a go.


Alternatively you could try running the shower with just the hose (i.e.
head removed)

But note also the comment from Andy and others. A scaled shower head
could cause a similar issue as could a scaled up secondary HX in the
boiler.


If that stops the burner cycling, then you may be able to fix the
problem simply by increasing the max DHW temp on the boiler (the TMV on
the shower should keep the person in there safe).


No TMV afaia, simply turn anticlockwise to reduce the cold water.


In which case you will need to be wary of setting the DHW top limit too
high since you don't want to have a scalding risk. If you set it at 60
max, then by the time you allow for a bit of loss in the pipework etc
that ought to be still cool enough to get out of the way should it start
getting too hot.

If that still does not
do it, then you may need to change the shower head for a more "thirsty"
one, or use the basin tap trick for every shower.


Interesting, I'm wondering now when I did change the shower head
because my wife found the other one too gentle. But that is probably
the opposite to what you are proposing.


Well a high flow rate head, with lots of wide jets may give a "softer"
more rain like flow, that a lower consumption one with a smaller number
of narrower more focussed jets. How hard the shower feels will be a
product of the speed of the water and the weight of it hitting an area
of the body.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/
  #18   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 25,191
Default Another combi boiler hot water question

On 09/03/2019 13:39, AnthonyL wrote:
On Fri, 8 Mar 2019 16:22:03 +0000, newshound
wrote:

On 08/03/2019 12:24, AnthonyL wrote:
I've been trying to understand what happens with the hot water when my
wife screams that it has gone cold in the shower so I watched it the
other day.

Turn shower on, burner comes on, led lights (Baxi 105HE) start to
light up to a maximum. Everything fine for a few minutes then the
burner turns off, leds go back, and wife screams. Burner comes back
on - repeat and rinse.

Shouldn't the burner flame just adjust to maintain the temperature
rather than cut-out? Obvious behaviour of the CH but not for DHW.

Otherwise is this indicative of a thermistor problem with hysterisis
or similar? Is it easy to replace?




I had that sort of problem from new with both a Vaillant and a Halstead,
admittedly in an older and rambling house with longish pipe runs. Given
up and gone to a proper system boiler.


I thought the Vaillant was a proper system boiler?


Vaillant make Heating only boilers (vented and unvented), System
boilers, and Combi boilers. Typically the 400, 600, and 800 series
respectively. So a HE 624 is a 24kW System boiler and a 838 a 38 kW Combi.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/
  #19   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,236
Default Another combi boiler hot water question

On Sat, 9 Mar 2019 15:19:02 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 09/03/2019 13:39, AnthonyL wrote:
On Fri, 8 Mar 2019 16:22:03 +0000, newshound
wrote:

On 08/03/2019 12:24, AnthonyL wrote:
I've been trying to understand what happens with the hot water when my
wife screams that it has gone cold in the shower so I watched it the
other day.

Turn shower on, burner comes on, led lights (Baxi 105HE) start to
light up to a maximum. Everything fine for a few minutes then the
burner turns off, leds go back, and wife screams. Burner comes back
on - repeat and rinse.

Shouldn't the burner flame just adjust to maintain the temperature
rather than cut-out? Obvious behaviour of the CH but not for DHW.

Otherwise is this indicative of a thermistor problem with hysterisis
or similar? Is it easy to replace?




I had that sort of problem from new with both a Vaillant and a Halstead,
admittedly in an older and rambling house with longish pipe runs. Given
up and gone to a proper system boiler.


I thought the Vaillant was a proper system boiler?


Vaillant make Heating only boilers (vented and unvented), System
boilers, and Combi boilers. Typically the 400, 600, and 800 series
respectively. So a HE 624 is a 24kW System boiler and a 838 a 38 kW Combi.



Goes to show what I know about boilers. Too many years with coal
fired heating.

I'm guessing our bungalow used to have a system boiler in the loft
with supplementary immersion heating. In fact that's pretty well what
I had in my previous coal fired property and to be honest that worked
well as the immersion heater wouldn't need to do anything when there
was a fire and kept a stock of hot water using E7 when heating was
needed.

--
AnthonyL
  #20   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,236
Default Another combi boiler hot water question

On Sat, 09 Mar 2019 13:50:19 GMT, lid (AnthonyL)
wrote:

On Fri, 8 Mar 2019 18:18:50 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 08/03/2019 12:24, AnthonyL wrote:
I've been trying to understand what happens with the hot water when my
wife screams that it has gone cold in the shower so I watched it the
other day.

Turn shower on, burner comes on, led lights (Baxi 105HE) start to
light up to a maximum. Everything fine for a few minutes then the
burner turns off, leds go back, and wife screams. Burner comes back
on - repeat and rinse.

Shouldn't the burner flame just adjust to maintain the temperature
rather than cut-out? Obvious behaviour of the CH but not for DHW.

Otherwise is this indicative of a thermistor problem with hysterisis
or similar? Is it easy to replace?


If we assume for the moment that the boiler is working as it should then
there is a likely cause that could result from the boiler DHW
temperature going over the set point.


It's working as well as I can tell for the CH.

IIUC, your Baxi does not have any form of flow regulation. So all it can
do in response to varying DHW flow rates is modulate its burner output.

So normally you set a temperature, say 60 deg, and the boiler will
attempt to deliver water at that temp.

If you are drawing DHW at a high rate, then its unlikely to have the
power to reach that temp - and so the temp will fall below the max.


That I'd be happy with as even though the water will not get very hot
it is simply a matter of turning the shower knob anticlockwise to
reduce the amount of cold. As stated the problem is when the burner
goes out.

If however draw at a low rate, then it will have to modulate its burner
output power down to prevent the temperature exceeding the limit. If it
can't keep under the limit even at minimum burner power, then it will
start to cycle the burner.


That's what seems to be happening.

You can test this theory, but running the shower as normal, but by
adding some extra demand - say running the hot tap in the basin to
increase the DHW flow rate a bit.


Good point. I'll give that a go.

If that stops the burner cycling, then you may be able to fix the
problem simply by increasing the max DHW temp on the boiler (the TMV on
the shower should keep the person in there safe).



No it didn't do the job.

Also if I turned the temperature down the boiler started cycling a bit
erratically and with bit of what sounds like valves or circuit breaker
noises. If I turned the temperature up it was better but would still
cut out.

No TMV afaia, simply turn anticlockwise to reduce the cold water.


It is a Mira 415. I suspect put in at the same time as the boiler so
2006?


If that still does not
do it, then you may need to change the shower head for a more "thirsty"
one, or use the basin tap trick for every shower.


I'm fairly sure the problem is in the boiler somewhere. The shower
has worked fine in the 3 1/2 years we've been here. The only changes
have been:

1) Flow reducer valve put in a couple of years ago
2) Change shower head to one that doesn't have such a fine spray
3) Replacement diverter valve about 18 months ago

It's definitely cycling when it shouldn't and as I understand it now
the burner should simply adjust and not turn off/on though I presume
that it correct operation for the CH?


--
AnthonyL


  #21   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 25,191
Default Another combi boiler hot water question

On 10/03/2019 10:40, AnthonyL wrote:
On Sat, 09 Mar 2019 13:50:19 GMT, lid (AnthonyL)
wrote:

On Fri, 8 Mar 2019 18:18:50 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 08/03/2019 12:24, AnthonyL wrote:
I've been trying to understand what happens with the hot water when my
wife screams that it has gone cold in the shower so I watched it the
other day.

Turn shower on, burner comes on, led lights (Baxi 105HE) start to
light up to a maximum. Everything fine for a few minutes then the
burner turns off, leds go back, and wife screams. Burner comes back
on - repeat and rinse.

Shouldn't the burner flame just adjust to maintain the temperature
rather than cut-out? Obvious behaviour of the CH but not for DHW.

Otherwise is this indicative of a thermistor problem with hysterisis
or similar? Is it easy to replace?

If we assume for the moment that the boiler is working as it should then
there is a likely cause that could result from the boiler DHW
temperature going over the set point.


It's working as well as I can tell for the CH.

IIUC, your Baxi does not have any form of flow regulation. So all it can
do in response to varying DHW flow rates is modulate its burner output.

So normally you set a temperature, say 60 deg, and the boiler will
attempt to deliver water at that temp.

If you are drawing DHW at a high rate, then its unlikely to have the
power to reach that temp - and so the temp will fall below the max.


That I'd be happy with as even though the water will not get very hot
it is simply a matter of turning the shower knob anticlockwise to
reduce the amount of cold. As stated the problem is when the burner
goes out.

If however draw at a low rate, then it will have to modulate its burner
output power down to prevent the temperature exceeding the limit. If it
can't keep under the limit even at minimum burner power, then it will
start to cycle the burner.


That's what seems to be happening.

You can test this theory, but running the shower as normal, but by
adding some extra demand - say running the hot tap in the basin to
increase the DHW flow rate a bit.


Good point. I'll give that a go.

If that stops the burner cycling, then you may be able to fix the
problem simply by increasing the max DHW temp on the boiler (the TMV on
the shower should keep the person in there safe).



No it didn't do the job.

Also if I turned the temperature down the boiler started cycling a bit
erratically and with bit of what sounds like valves or circuit breaker
noises. If I turned the temperature up it was better but would still
cut out.

No TMV afaia, simply turn anticlockwise to reduce the cold water.


It is a Mira 415. I suspect put in at the same time as the boiler so
2006?


Ah, ok the 415 is not a traditional TMV but a pressure balanced valve
instead. These are specially designed for use with combi's since a
traditional TMV can have unexpected results.

(i.e. if the temp falls, a normal TMV will compensate by increasing the
flow of hot. On a combi that might actually lower the temp of the hot
supply even more. A PB valve will keep the pressure on the inlets
balanced, this tends to better reflect the effect of demands being made
elsewhere in the house)

If that still does not
do it, then you may need to change the shower head for a more "thirsty"
one, or use the basin tap trick for every shower.


I'm fairly sure the problem is in the boiler somewhere. The shower
has worked fine in the 3 1/2 years we've been here. The only changes
have been:

1) Flow reducer valve put in a couple of years ago
2) Change shower head to one that doesn't have such a fine spray
3) Replacement diverter valve about 18 months ago

It's definitely cycling when it shouldn't and as I understand it now
the burner should simply adjust and not turn off/on though I presume
that it correct operation for the CH?


The main difference between CH operation and DHW is the addition of the
secondary plate heat exchanger for the DHW.

Since we have now eliminated a lack of adequate DHW demand as a cause,
it points the finger of suspicion at the Plate HX, and lack of adequate
rate of heat transfer. The MO would be the system fires, but the primary
side runs hotter since you are getting less cooling effect from the PHX.

Hard water area?


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd -
http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/
  #22   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,704
Default Another combi boiler hot water question

On 10/03/2019 13:57, John Rumm wrote:
On 10/03/2019 10:40, AnthonyL wrote:
On Sat, 09 Mar 2019 13:50:19 GMT, lid (AnthonyL)
wrote:

On Fri, 8 Mar 2019 18:18:50 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 08/03/2019 12:24, AnthonyL wrote:
I've been trying to understand what happens with the hot water when my
wife screams that it has gone cold in the shower so I watched it the
other day.

Turn shower on, burner comes on, led lights (Baxi 105HE) start to
light up to a maximum.Â* Everything fine for a few minutes then the
burner turns off, leds go back, and wife screams.Â* Burner comes back
on - repeat and rinse.

Shouldn't the burner flame just adjust to maintain the temperature
rather than cut-out?Â* Obvious behaviour of the CH but not for DHW.

Otherwise is this indicative of a thermistor problem with hysterisis
or similar?Â* Is it easy to replace?

If we assume for the moment that the boiler is working as it should
then
there is a likely cause that could result from the boiler DHW
temperature going over the set point.


It's working as well as I can tell for the CH.

IIUC, your Baxi does not have any form of flow regulation. So all it
can
do in response to varying DHW flow rates is modulate its burner output.

So normally you set a temperature, say 60 deg, and the boiler will
attempt to deliver water at that temp.

If you are drawing DHW at a high rate, then its unlikely to have the
power to reach that temp - and so the temp will fall below the max.


That I'd be happy with as even though the water will not get very hot
it is simply a matter of turning the shower knob anticlockwise to
reduce the amount of cold.Â* As stated the problem is when the burner
goes out.

If however draw at a low rate, then it will have to modulate its burner
output power down to prevent the temperature exceeding the limit. If it
can't keep under the limit even at minimum burner power, then it will
start to cycle the burner.


That's what seems to be happening.

You can test this theory, but running the shower as normal, but by
adding some extra demand - say running the hot tap in the basin to
increase the DHW flow rate a bit.


Good point.Â* I'll give that a go.

If that stops the burner cycling, then you may be able to fix the
problem simply by increasing the max DHW temp on the boiler (the TMV on
the shower should keep the person in there safe).


No it didn't do the job.

Also if I turned the temperature down the boiler started cycling a bit
erratically and with bit of what sounds like valves or circuit breaker
noises.Â* If I turned the temperature up it was better but would still
cut out.

No TMV afaia, simply turn anticlockwise to reduce the cold water.


It is a Mira 415.Â* I suspect put in at the same time as the boiler so
2006?


Ah, ok the 415 is not a traditional TMV but a pressure balanced valve
instead. These are specially designed for use with combi's since a
traditional TMV can have unexpected results.

(i.e. if the temp falls, a normal TMV will compensate by increasing the
flow of hot. On a combi that might actually lower the temp of the hot
supply even more. A PB valve will keep the pressure on the inlets
balanced, this tends to better reflect the effect of demands being made
elsewhere in the house)

If that still does not
do it, then you may need to change the shower head for a more "thirsty"
one, or use the basin tap trick for every shower.


I'm fairly sure the problem is in the boiler somewhere.Â* The shower
has worked fine in the 3 1/2 years we've been here.Â* The only changes
have been:

1) Flow reducer valve put in a couple of years ago
2) Change shower head to one that doesn't have such a fine spray
3) Replacement diverter valve about 18 months ago

It's definitely cycling when it shouldn't and as I understand it now
the burner should simply adjust and not turn off/on though I presume
that it correct operation for the CH?


The main difference between CH operation and DHW is the addition of the
secondary plate heat exchanger for the DHW.

Since we have now eliminated a lack of adequate DHW demand as a cause,
it points the finger of suspicion at the Plate HX, and lack of adequate
rate of heat transfer. The MO would be the system fires, but the primary
side runs hotter since you are getting less cooling effect from the PHX.


Diverter valve.

DHW thermostat.

--
Max Demian
  #23   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 25,191
Default Another combi boiler hot water question

On 10/03/2019 14:59, Max Demian wrote:
On 10/03/2019 13:57, John Rumm wrote:
On 10/03/2019 10:40, AnthonyL wrote:
On Sat, 09 Mar 2019 13:50:19 GMT, lid (AnthonyL)
wrote:

On Fri, 8 Mar 2019 18:18:50 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 08/03/2019 12:24, AnthonyL wrote:
I've been trying to understand what happens with the hot water
when my
wife screams that it has gone cold in the shower so I watched it the
other day.

Turn shower on, burner comes on, led lights (Baxi 105HE) start to
light up to a maximum.Â* Everything fine for a few minutes then the
burner turns off, leds go back, and wife screams.Â* Burner comes back
on - repeat and rinse.

Shouldn't the burner flame just adjust to maintain the temperature
rather than cut-out?Â* Obvious behaviour of the CH but not for DHW.

Otherwise is this indicative of a thermistor problem with hysterisis
or similar?Â* Is it easy to replace?

If we assume for the moment that the boiler is working as it should
then
there is a likely cause that could result from the boiler DHW
temperature going over the set point.


It's working as well as I can tell for the CH.

IIUC, your Baxi does not have any form of flow regulation. So all
it can
do in response to varying DHW flow rates is modulate its burner
output.

So normally you set a temperature, say 60 deg, and the boiler will
attempt to deliver water at that temp.

If you are drawing DHW at a high rate, then its unlikely to have the
power to reach that temp - and so the temp will fall below the max.


That I'd be happy with as even though the water will not get very hot
it is simply a matter of turning the shower knob anticlockwise to
reduce the amount of cold.Â* As stated the problem is when the burner
goes out.

If however draw at a low rate, then it will have to modulate its
burner
output power down to prevent the temperature exceeding the limit.
If it
can't keep under the limit even at minimum burner power, then it will
start to cycle the burner.


That's what seems to be happening.

You can test this theory, but running the shower as normal, but by
adding some extra demand - say running the hot tap in the basin to
increase the DHW flow rate a bit.


Good point.Â* I'll give that a go.

If that stops the burner cycling, then you may be able to fix the
problem simply by increasing the max DHW temp on the boiler (the
TMV on
the shower should keep the person in there safe).


No it didn't do the job.

Also if I turned the temperature down the boiler started cycling a bit
erratically and with bit of what sounds like valves or circuit breaker
noises.Â* If I turned the temperature up it was better but would still
cut out.

No TMV afaia, simply turn anticlockwise to reduce the cold water.


It is a Mira 415.Â* I suspect put in at the same time as the boiler so
2006?


Ah, ok the 415 is not a traditional TMV but a pressure balanced valve
instead. These are specially designed for use with combi's since a
traditional TMV can have unexpected results.

(i.e. if the temp falls, a normal TMV will compensate by increasing
the flow of hot. On a combi that might actually lower the temp of the
hot supply even more. A PB valve will keep the pressure on the inlets
balanced, this tends to better reflect the effect of demands being
made elsewhere in the house)

If that still does not
do it, then you may need to change the shower head for a more
"thirsty"
one, or use the basin tap trick for every shower.

I'm fairly sure the problem is in the boiler somewhere.Â* The shower
has worked fine in the 3 1/2 years we've been here.Â* The only changes
have been:

1) Flow reducer valve put in a couple of years ago
2) Change shower head to one that doesn't have such a fine spray
3) Replacement diverter valve about 18 months ago

It's definitely cycling when it shouldn't and as I understand it now
the burner should simply adjust and not turn off/on though I presume
that it correct operation for the CH?


The main difference between CH operation and DHW is the addition of
the secondary plate heat exchanger for the DHW.

Since we have now eliminated a lack of adequate DHW demand as a cause,
it points the finger of suspicion at the Plate HX, and lack of
adequate rate of heat transfer. The MO would be the system fires, but
the primary side runs hotter since you are getting less cooling effect
from the PHX.


Diverter valve.


Not sure about that - all it can do is fail to divert (either at all, or
completely), that would leave the rads still partly in circuit. That
will increase the heating load rather than reduce it.

DHW thermostat.


Possibly - although I would expect it to shut off faster and also
produce water not actually hot enough in the first place if it were over
reading. Could be worth disconnecting it from the PCB, and measuring its
resistance though.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd -
http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/
  #24   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,236
Default Another combi boiler hot water question

On Sun, 10 Mar 2019 18:28:37 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 10/03/2019 14:59, Max Demian wrote:
On 10/03/2019 13:57, John Rumm wrote:
On 10/03/2019 10:40, AnthonyL wrote:
On Sat, 09 Mar 2019 13:50:19 GMT, lid (AnthonyL)
wrote:

On Fri, 8 Mar 2019 18:18:50 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 08/03/2019 12:24, AnthonyL wrote:
I've been trying to understand what happens with the hot water
when my
wife screams that it has gone cold in the shower so I watched it the
other day.

Turn shower on, burner comes on, led lights (Baxi 105HE) start to
light up to a maximum.Â* Everything fine for a few minutes then the
burner turns off, leds go back, and wife screams.Â* Burner comes back
on - repeat and rinse.

Shouldn't the burner flame just adjust to maintain the temperature
rather than cut-out?Â* Obvious behaviour of the CH but not for DHW.

Otherwise is this indicative of a thermistor problem with hysterisis
or similar?Â* Is it easy to replace?

If we assume for the moment that the boiler is working as it should
then
there is a likely cause that could result from the boiler DHW
temperature going over the set point.


It's working as well as I can tell for the CH.

IIUC, your Baxi does not have any form of flow regulation. So all
it can
do in response to varying DHW flow rates is modulate its burner
output.

So normally you set a temperature, say 60 deg, and the boiler will
attempt to deliver water at that temp.

If you are drawing DHW at a high rate, then its unlikely to have the
power to reach that temp - and so the temp will fall below the max.


That I'd be happy with as even though the water will not get very hot
it is simply a matter of turning the shower knob anticlockwise to
reduce the amount of cold.Â* As stated the problem is when the burner
goes out.

If however draw at a low rate, then it will have to modulate its
burner
output power down to prevent the temperature exceeding the limit.
If it
can't keep under the limit even at minimum burner power, then it will
start to cycle the burner.


That's what seems to be happening.

You can test this theory, but running the shower as normal, but by
adding some extra demand - say running the hot tap in the basin to
increase the DHW flow rate a bit.


Good point.Â* I'll give that a go.

If that stops the burner cycling, then you may be able to fix the
problem simply by increasing the max DHW temp on the boiler (the
TMV on
the shower should keep the person in there safe).


No it didn't do the job.

Also if I turned the temperature down the boiler started cycling a bit
erratically and with bit of what sounds like valves or circuit breaker
noises.Â* If I turned the temperature up it was better but would still
cut out.

No TMV afaia, simply turn anticlockwise to reduce the cold water.


It is a Mira 415.Â* I suspect put in at the same time as the boiler so
2006?

Ah, ok the 415 is not a traditional TMV but a pressure balanced valve
instead. These are specially designed for use with combi's since a
traditional TMV can have unexpected results.

(i.e. if the temp falls, a normal TMV will compensate by increasing
the flow of hot. On a combi that might actually lower the temp of the
hot supply even more. A PB valve will keep the pressure on the inlets
balanced, this tends to better reflect the effect of demands being
made elsewhere in the house)

If that still does not
do it, then you may need to change the shower head for a more
"thirsty"
one, or use the basin tap trick for every shower.

I'm fairly sure the problem is in the boiler somewhere.Â* The shower
has worked fine in the 3 1/2 years we've been here.Â* The only changes
have been:

1) Flow reducer valve put in a couple of years ago
2) Change shower head to one that doesn't have such a fine spray
3) Replacement diverter valve about 18 months ago

It's definitely cycling when it shouldn't and as I understand it now
the burner should simply adjust and not turn off/on though I presume
that it correct operation for the CH?

The main difference between CH operation and DHW is the addition of
the secondary plate heat exchanger for the DHW.

Since we have now eliminated a lack of adequate DHW demand as a cause,
it points the finger of suspicion at the Plate HX, and lack of
adequate rate of heat transfer. The MO would be the system fires, but
the primary side runs hotter since you are getting less cooling effect
from the PHX.


Diverter valve.


Not sure about that - all it can do is fail to divert (either at all, or
completely), that would leave the rads still partly in circuit. That
will increase the heating load rather than reduce it.


New one put in 2017 though a lot of problem initially with cutting out
due to a microswitch lever setting. I've not checked whether the
nearby radiator gets warm when the CH is off.

DHW thermostat.


Possibly - although I would expect it to shut off faster and also
produce water not actually hot enough in the first place if it were over
reading. Could be worth disconnecting it from the PCB, and measuring its
resistance though.


I've taken some smartphone video of the panel whilst doing some tests.
However I wasn't smart enough to use a smaller resolution that the max
I can readily upload to video.com and I'm sure no-one really want 2Gb
of LEDs going on/off.

I'll post again once done.

Meanwhile I note that when I run the hot water into a basin it looks
creamy which then settles and I'm assuming it is just very small air
bubbles.

The Severn Trent website describes the water in the area as
"Moderately hard". It gives a full list of chemical etc found in the
water, but not Calcium (I thought that's what I'd be looking for.

There's no major issue with kettle furring. Not too happy about
Arsenic, Benzine and e-coli but I doubt that boiler minds.


--
AnthonyL
  #25   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 39,563
Default Another combi boiler hot water question

On 11/03/2019 13:03, AnthonyL wrote:
I can readily upload to video.com and I'm sure no-one really want 2Gb
of LEDs going on/off.


I am sure handbrake could edit that down a bit.


--
In a Time of Universal Deceit, Telling the Truth Is a Revolutionary Act.

- George Orwell


  #26   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 25,191
Default Another combi boiler hot water question

On 11/03/2019 13:03, AnthonyL wrote:
On Sun, 10 Mar 2019 18:28:37 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 10/03/2019 14:59, Max Demian wrote:



Diverter valve.


Not sure about that - all it can do is fail to divert (either at all, or
completely), that would leave the rads still partly in circuit. That
will increase the heating load rather than reduce it.


New one put in 2017 though a lot of problem initially with cutting out
due to a microswitch lever setting. I've not checked whether the
nearby radiator gets warm when the CH is off.

DHW thermostat.


Possibly - although I would expect it to shut off faster and also
produce water not actually hot enough in the first place if it were over
reading. Could be worth disconnecting it from the PCB, and measuring its
resistance though.


I've taken some smartphone video of the panel whilst doing some tests.
However I wasn't smart enough to use a smaller resolution that the max
I can readily upload to video.com and I'm sure no-one really want 2Gb
of LEDs going on/off.


As TNP suggested, Handbrake could squish that into something far smaller
if you want.

I'll post again once done.

Meanwhile I note that when I run the hot water into a basin it looks
creamy which then settles and I'm assuming it is just very small air
bubbles.


Yup, not uncommon...

The Severn Trent website describes the water in the area as
"Moderately hard". It gives a full list of chemical etc found in the
water, but not Calcium (I thought that's what I'd be looking for.


They may give a figure for overall hardness in degrees Clarke?




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/
  #27   Report Post  
Posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,236
Default Another combi boiler hot water question

On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 17:06:03 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 11/03/2019 13:03, AnthonyL wrote:
On Sun, 10 Mar 2019 18:28:37 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 10/03/2019 14:59, Max Demian wrote:



Diverter valve.

Not sure about that - all it can do is fail to divert (either at all, or
completely), that would leave the rads still partly in circuit. That
will increase the heating load rather than reduce it.


New one put in 2017 though a lot of problem initially with cutting out
due to a microswitch lever setting. I've not checked whether the
nearby radiator gets warm when the CH is off.

DHW thermostat.

Possibly - although I would expect it to shut off faster and also
produce water not actually hot enough in the first place if it were over
reading. Could be worth disconnecting it from the PCB, and measuring its
resistance though.


I've taken some smartphone video of the panel whilst doing some tests.
However I wasn't smart enough to use a smaller resolution that the max
I can readily upload to video.com and I'm sure no-one really want 2Gb
of LEDs going on/off.


As TNP suggested, Handbrake could squish that into something far smaller
if you want.


My Handbrake installation (requiring also an install of Framework)
failed but I've also had a flakey connection for a day or so. Anyway
copy/pasting a FFMPEG command into my Linux terminal worked without
needing any addition software and has seriously reduced the file
sizes.



I'll post again once done.


There are three videos, sorry a bit like watching paint dry, with
narrative included to say what I'm doing:

https://vimeo.com/323440152
https://vimeo.com/323440503
https://vimeo.com/323441923

I've left the temperature setting at minimum and my wife has just had
a shower, needed the Mira turned right up to max which we've never had
before and it was just hot enough for her and no cut outs. So that,
plus possibly what is to be seen in the videos, indicates that
something is overheating.

Meanwhile I note that when I run the hot water into a basin it looks
creamy which then settles and I'm assuming it is just very small air
bubbles.


Yup, not uncommon...


Noted

The Severn Trent website describes the water in the area as
"Moderately hard". It gives a full list of chemical etc found in the
water, but not Calcium (I thought that's what I'd be looking for.


They may give a figure for overall hardness in degrees Clarke?


Analysis Typical Value
Hardness Level Moderately Hard
Hardness Clark 13.53

That was for the year to last September.


--
AnthonyL
Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Combi boiler - hot water isn't very hot, but radiators work OK iceland_potter UK diy 6 April 20th 07 01:59 PM
Choosing a HOT WATER RECIRCULATOR for QUICK HOT WATER DELIVERY or for HOT WATER ON D'MAND is now a whole lot easier. [email protected] Home Repair 22 June 7th 06 02:09 AM
water cooler, water coolers, water dispenser, water dispensers,bottleless water cooler,bottleless water coolers,bottleless water dispenser,bottleless water dispensers water coolers UK diy 3 January 5th 06 09:23 PM
Combi boiler - Hot water 'heat dump' too hot Phil Addison UK diy 59 November 24th 04 08:33 PM
hot water recirculator, instant hot water but not a water heating unit, saves water, gas, time, money HeatMan Home Repair 0 August 24th 03 01:26 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:50 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 DIYbanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about DIY & home improvement"